Deadeye getting 39k parses...

Makes me think these changes arn't being tested. Deadeye now, with a super simple rotation, is beating out almost every melee spec in the game, some of which have much more demanding rotations.

Eh, ride it while it lasts.

Bottom line - testing, for bugs? Sure. They'll give it a go, as well as they can, within the time available.

The rest can get fixed later - next pass.

While I'm sure Anet's team would love to present perfection, they simply don't have the luxury of investing that much time.

My god I saw some stuff too. With realistic buffs/conditions someone managed to get 37.5k - this is where Thief should be!What is the purporse of the Thief? Dmg and yeah pure dmg. We have aside from group stealth, which is basically useless in PvE (excluding skipping mobs) nothing to offer for the group.So what can a Thief do? Bring dmg to the group - a lot.

@Daccura.4769 said:My god I saw some stuff too. With realistic buffs/conditions someone managed to get 37.5k - this is where Thief should be!What is the purporse of the Thief? Dmg and yeah pure dmg. We have aside from group stealth, which is basically useless in PvE (excluding skipping mobs) nothing to offer for the group.So what can a Thief do? Bring dmg to the group - a lot.

Every class is a damage class. This isn't a holy trinity game. Thieves and Guardians have the same health pools for instance. No one should have a spec thats 7-8 K dps ahead of the others, especially not a ranged spec over melee specs which are much more dangerous to play. Thieves have a variety of poisons, blinds and conditions, great cc bar break they can apply as well, so I think the notion they offer nothing besides group stealth is a strict exaggeration.

I mean there are 13 conditions and EW counts everything on the target, which in most cases in PvE will be capped with at least 10-12.

Realistically it's a 20%+ damage modifier for the entirety of the fight making it the best source of PvE DPS in the game of any damage modifier, single-handedly phasing out the gains from CS. With DT, this gets pushed higher, same with Executioner.

It's just this change dumpstered DA for the PvP modes.

@faytte.1057 said:

@Daccura.4769 said:My god I saw some stuff too. With realistic buffs/conditions someone managed to get 37.5k - this is where Thief should be!What is the purporse of the Thief? Dmg and yeah pure dmg. We have aside from group stealth, which is basically useless in PvE (excluding skipping mobs) nothing to offer for the group.So what can a Thief do? Bring dmg to the group - a lot.

Just want to kindly point out that I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that thief is a desired utility class before now, especially not compared to guardian, which has generally had both more damage AND more utility depending on spec. This is what thief players have been waiting for. No one would have made the argument that thief is worth incorporating into a party based off of utility and sure as hell not based off of the mediocre damage they do in PvE while sporting comparatively little survivability. There's a difference between being accepted and being desired. I know this mountain of dps they can apparently do now likely won't last but you better believe that this is what players anticipated when they locked in the thief class. That's just the expectation that comes with the thief/assassin archetype, at least traditionally. And quite frankly it just makes no damn sense that this class has been as low on the dps totem pole as it has been. If you can't agree with anything else I've said, surely you can agree with that.

Squishy low healthpool low utility class doing good damage? About damn time.

Also, can we see some sources, builds, rotations?

@Mhina.1827 said:

@faytte.1057 said:

@Daccura.4769 said:My god I saw some stuff too. With realistic buffs/conditions someone managed to get 37.5k - this is where Thief should be!What is the purporse of the Thief? Dmg and yeah pure dmg. We have aside from group stealth, which is basically useless in PvE (excluding skipping mobs) nothing to offer for the group.So what can a Thief do? Bring dmg to the group - a lot.

I would say increase thief utility then and adjust their numbers up to match the rest of the pack. Top dps becomes meta which leads to cookie cutter groups.

I still would have liked to have seen stability on kneel. And traits to decide where we want to dump malice, either on stealth attacks, stolen skills, or boost allies. So far, I'd say good effort but it now kinda forces us to now wait to use the stolen skills after earning malice for the buffs to the stealth attacks, or mark again. idk.

The Rifle rotation is unlikely to get much play in raids because it is punished heavily if you need to reposition, dodge out of sequence or do mechanics.

Dagger/Dagger is likely a little too high currently. Removing the 5% Dagger damage from Dagger Training would tone Deadeye down while still making it the best single target damage in the game aside from situations with large hitbox or where cleave is wanted.

Daredevil is a concern. It does a huge amount of benchmark DPS that will be increased in raids due to Stolen Skills and has a rotation that doesn't have the punish elements of messed up reveals and cleaves with basically every attack. The Weakening Charge change can probably be safely revered or toned down by 10%. This would ensure that Daredevil is still doing very decent damage and but isn't outclassing other options like Holosmith and Spellbreaker while providing very easy Vulnerability application.

@"Miatela.5047" said:The Rifle rotation is unlikely to get much play in raids because it is punished heavily if you need to reposition, dodge out of sequence or do mechanics.

Dagger/Dagger is likely a little too high currently. Removing the 5% Dagger damage from Dagger Training would tone Deadeye down while still making it the best single target damage in the game aside from situations with large hitbox or where cleave is wanted.

Daredevil is a concern. It does a huge amount of benchmark DPS that will be increased in raids due to Stolen Skills and has a rotation that doesn't have the punish elements of messed up reveals and cleaves with basically every attack. The Weakening Charge change can probably be safely revered or toned down by 10%. This would ensure that Daredevil is still doing very decent damage and but isn't outclassing other options like Holosmith and Spellbreaker while providing very easy Vulnerability application.

Rather than remove modifiers from dagger training or nerfing weakening charge again, they could just normalize the exposed weakness minor and thus line all the dps specs back in.With the buffs to all weapons, the %modifier per condition could have stayed at 10%flat when enemy is poisoned or has weakness. Thief is the only big dmg-outlier now?

@Bramymond.7689 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:The Rifle rotation is unlikely to get much play in raids because it is punished heavily if you need to reposition, dodge out of sequence or do mechanics.

Dagger/Dagger is likely a little too high currently. Removing the 5% Dagger damage from Dagger Training would tone Deadeye down while still making it the best single target damage in the game aside from situations with large hitbox or where cleave is wanted.

Daredevil is a concern. It does a huge amount of benchmark DPS that will be increased in raids due to Stolen Skills and has a rotation that doesn't have the punish elements of messed up reveals and cleaves with basically every attack. The Weakening Charge change can probably be safely revered or toned down by 10%. This would ensure that Daredevil is still doing very decent damage and but isn't outclassing other options like Holosmith and Spellbreaker while providing very easy Vulnerability application.

I think Exposed Weakness and Premeditation are good design decisions though. They ensure that you won't actually want to stack Deadeyes because then you won't get access to the highest modifiers from those two traits. DPS coming from these traits also really plays into the idea of being a selfish DPS that relies on others.

@"Miatela.5047" said:I think Exposed Weakness and Premeditation are good design decisions though. They ensure that you won't actually want to stack Deadeyes because then you won't get access to the highest modifiers from those two traits. DPS coming from these traits also really plays into the idea of being a selfish DPS that relies on others.

I wish they had split Exposed Weakness between game modes. The change would have been just fine if it had only been for PvE... and maybe, perhaps, possibly for WvW (though I say no). In PvP, it should have stayed the flat 10% bonus.

Actually, I would prefer keeping the 10% increase on all game modes, and have every additional condition give an extra 1% damage bonus.

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Bramymond.7689 said:

@"Miatela.5047" said:The Rifle rotation is unlikely to get much play in raids because it is punished heavily if you need to reposition, dodge out of sequence or do mechanics.

Dagger/Dagger is likely a little too high currently. Removing the 5% Dagger damage from Dagger Training would tone Deadeye down while still making it the best single target damage in the game aside from situations with large hitbox or where cleave is wanted.

Daredevil is a concern. It does a huge amount of benchmark DPS that will be increased in raids due to Stolen Skills and has a rotation that doesn't have the punish elements of messed up reveals and cleaves with basically every attack. The Weakening Charge change can probably be safely revered or toned down by 10%. This would ensure that Daredevil is still doing very decent damage and but isn't outclassing other options like Holosmith and Spellbreaker while providing very easy Vulnerability application.

I‘m just afraid they might kneejerk the nerf, even if it‘s inevitably coming.

@Bramymond.7689 said:

I‘m just afraid they might kneejerk the nerf, even if it‘s inevitably coming.

Deadeye was fine before the patch though. Changing only one of Exposed Weakness or Dagger Training to how it was previously would still leave Deadeye in a very good place.

I think you are right though. As much as I like the boon and condi reliance, changing Exposed Weakness is the easiest way to normalise Deadeye and Daredevil damage in line with the other options out there.

I am totally fine with not being the top dps in the group. What my concern is that Thiefs can't offer much to the group aside from dmg. Sure you can run Trickery with 10s share of 1 stack of might, fury, swiftness and vigor on Steal but that is completely done by other professions in a better way. We have stealth access which is really nice in some fractals if the group follows you but in combat it is not used (talking about PvE).If the removed some dmg and added some more viable Boonshare - ok I would love that and be able to help the group is awesome. Or even make a Thief specific unique buff (something like Spotter etc.) which only Thief can offer so it has is place in a Group/Raid scenario.But since we don't have that the really only benefitial thing left for the group is our dmg output - which was quite low compared to other professions who can deal good dmg AND provide Boons/unique buffs to the party.

I guess we have to test these changes with some builds, groups etc. to get a better and bigger picture of the place for Thiefs now (again I'm talking about PvE) and then we can look into details.

PvP I can't say too much because I mainly play PvE. I can just say Anet is doing a great thing with splitting ability effects for PvE and PvP/WvW - other MMORPGs don't do that and have HUGE problems balancing classes either in PvE or plPvP aspect.

@Daccura.4769 said:My god I saw some stuff too. With realistic buffs/conditions someone managed to get 37.5k - this is where Thief should be!What is the purporse of the Thief? Dmg and yeah pure dmg. We have aside from group stealth, which is basically useless in PvE (excluding skipping mobs) nothing to offer for the group.So what can a Thief do? Bring dmg to the group - a lot.

Yeah, and you have to factor in the fact that they have to stop all mobility and utility to get that.

As far as i have been trying DE and DD i came up with following resultscondi DD (full viper according to snowcrows) 25k on golem, 22k on Gorceval, Mursat overseer, 19k on Sabetha, VG, Cairn (i got ported a bit) 20 on Samarog (always top dps from group we got kill at first try gorce with no updrafts even)condi DE (yea i am not kidding full viper basically snovcrows build for condi DD with cahnges in traits) at peak 21k on golem (havent went to try it further)

Would be nice if people linked this stuff so everyone can see where you're coming from. For most, simply saying "oh look, they have huge damage now" won't mean anything till you link them info.

@faytte.1057 said:

@Mhina.1827 said:

@faytte.1057 said:

@Daccura.4769 said:My god I saw some stuff too. With realistic buffs/conditions someone managed to get 37.5k - this is where Thief should be!What is the purporse of the Thief? Dmg and yeah pure dmg. We have aside from group stealth, which is basically useless in PvE (excluding skipping mobs) nothing to offer for the group.So what can a Thief do? Bring dmg to the group - a lot.

Which thieves has been shelved from for how long now?

I mean, 39K is nothing. People are getting 500k with Thief (obvious exploits).

https://reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8xzcq2/thief_dps_is_fine_ʖ/

Deadeye can easily reach 33-36k on MO. Gorseval I hit about 28k with a very shaky run. Should be able to get closer to 30k. I've been getting about 34k on KC with messy issues due to the statues being bugged. Deimos will be huge numbers with the non-afk strat and Samarog should have very possible 24k+.

Tbh, this is a bit too high. Dropping down Exposed Weakness to where it was previously would be sensible.

Why are people complaining about high damage? That's all thieves bring to a group! Similar with weavers- squishy class used because it has high damage. It's about time we were competitive when you consider the deadeye rejection from raids.

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Daccura.4769 said:My god I saw some stuff too. With realistic buffs/conditions someone managed to get 37.5k - this is where Thief should be!What is the purporse of the Thief? Dmg and yeah pure dmg. We have aside from group stealth, which is basically useless in PvE (excluding skipping mobs) nothing to offer for the group.So what can a Thief do? Bring dmg to the group - a lot.

Exactly. People forget that for the most possible dmg output we have to exclude basically all utility.

I think DE doesnt need any more improvements maybe some nerf would help it to get back to the ground i want my Daredevil improved i dont give 10 craps about DE i dont like that elite and i dont want to play it i want my DD strong

You are out of the loop, shadow flare spam rotation is a steady solo mursaat overseer in 48 sec.... That's the true new rotation !