Massive disappointment - spoilers inside.

So we all know by now how the expansion story turned out. I feel it is by far the weakest part of the expansion, which overall stands out as a very good expansion - to me at least.The problem I'm having is with how straight forward their approach to making Balthazar the villain was. And how quickly the door was closed on old lore, the gods, and anything that has to do with the human-aspect of the lore.

Back when Balthazar was first introduced in the LS and teased as a major part of PoF I was both excited and afraid - afraid something like this might happen. Still - I believed and held hope that they'd work something interesting and engaging into the expansion. I hoped that it wouldn't be just "This is Balthazar - he's the new bad guy - go fight, pursue and eventually kill him".I had hopes that maybe there'd be a plot twist, that they wouldn't serve one of the core elements of this game's lore up as just another filler enemy that you fight and kill on the premise of "he's the new bad guy now, go get him". I hoped that as we progressed through the story we'd find a complex situation, with nuances, tones of grey not just - he's bad and you're good.

I'm also disappointed by the ending - one man and an underdeveloped elder dragon spawnling going toe to toe with an incredibly powerful entity and killing him. I never imagined they'd go this far.When it became clear to me we'd eventually haven o big twist, no reveal, nothing more than killing Balthazar I still imagined it would go down differently - perhaps he'd fight it out with Kralk only for us to step in and surprise him when he's distracted or weak - but no - you fight him one on one and beat him. The absurdity still sticks in my mind and I fear may never go away.I had to write this up because I feel it was very poorly handled. It was very clear they want to shut the door on the old lore. I personally hate it.

We've had more than enough human lore across 3 campaigns, PoF is also centered around humans quite a bit, there's nothing wrong with ''closing doors'' at this point, would you rather we just stay in the ''are teh guds der or not'' circle forever?

I don't see whats bad about Balthazar being a bad guy, he has his very clear reasons for doing what he's doing and let me remind you, Balthazar has never been a good guy, I'd agree it would be weird if it were Dwayna or Lyssa pulling this stuff but its Balthazar, the dude who gets a stiffy when he sees mindless murder.

As for the ending, it was one man with a powerful blade reignited by Balthazar, with a young dragon who has already absorbed power against a weakened god, Sohothin put the Commander on equal footing with Balthazar, if we didn't have it we would have lost. The end fight was so much better than Zhaitan and Mordremoth combined but I guess some people can't be pleased.

I've seen multiple of these posts and I'll never quite understand them, I've played GW1 and thought it was great, love the lore, but I'm glad we can ''close doors'' and move on, GW is no longer just about the humans, take off your nostalgia goggles and embrace the change.

I would rather stay in the "The gods are still around but not intervening" cycle - because it opens up the possibility to go the their realms and explore a lot of that lore without much issue.Perhaps a " with the current unstable magic situation in Tyria the gods can't intervene or take part in Tyrian issues BUT can still remain in the mists, guarding over their respective realms".Balthazar being a bad guy is wrong because they made two mistakes:

1. They didn't foreshadow this at all - there's really no indication in the past that Balthazar would go "KILL DRAGONS insane". Kormir states that the gods retreated to the mists because they realized that the dragons were coming and they didn't want to interfere. If anything it would have been at that point that Balthazar should have acted up - and chronologically speaking that moment took place before GW1.So he was fine with it for a while then went all crazy? Why? It's not consistent.

2. They made him incredibly one-dimensional - he wants revenge and he wants to kill the dragons and that's it. I expected better. I expected perhaps an arc where he ends up in the same spot but you can sort of sympathize with him. He's doing the wrong thing but maybe he was forced into this situation. I expected a more mature character development arc - one that wasn't just "I'm the god of WAR and I'll kill everyone BWUHAHAHAHAHA".

3. Balthazar was never good - but he was never bad either. Let's not forget that - Balthazar was on humanity's side - it's him that helped them conquer lands on Tyria in the first place. It feels off. The way they've written it feels very off considering old GW1 lore.

4. It's one man with a magical artifact. And one dragon that's incredibly weak. The problem is that the sword is the only thing different than before. Where he easily stomps both you AND Aurene before he kills you. I don't really accept that the sword would make THAT much of a difference without any sort of set-up. If anything - if he reignited the sword he should be able to take the power away from it, no?Also don't forget Balthazar has absorbed far more power than Aurene has - he's basically taken all the Bloodstone power and a lot of power from Jormag and Primordus. If you want the sword to matter that much it should have been pointed out that the sword is THAT powerful. It was pulled out of nowhere. You can't deny that.

Yeah - I guess going 1 v 1 with a god and winning is something that doesn't please me as it destroys all suspension of disbelief.How are they going to justify that in the future we don't just take the sword and solo every boss/threat/encounter? I mean - we're that strong aren't we?

I guess it comes down to the fact that the direction we're moving in is not something I enjoy. GW2 was about to be about every race - but it turns out it's about none of them. In trying to make it all-inclusive all flavor and relevant uniqueness in the story has been lost.

I am also not a fan of the ending I wanted Kralkatorrik to die and Balthazar to stay... or at least both dead.. but it seems at the beginning we had one direction: go to kill the god. And in the end we learnt we must kill Kralkatorrik anyway... Sooo baad writing.

I absolutely loved the first chapters and hearing Glint's voice... that was so amazing!! She sounded like the nice granny who invites her friends for a cup of tea.

But we can't say Balthazar is neutral, he wanted to kill us 3 times, once Vlast defended us, then he killed us successfully but suddenly we got an opportunity to get out... (looks like Grenth's servant aren't doing their job), and in the end.Also he wanted to kill Aurene.. so there was no mercy.

Also I expected we'd meet them in the Mists while dead, but look like designers didn't want to put any effort to design all the 6 gods.

Lack of humanity secrets hurts me the most... And this running away because they don't want to make anything worse is a bit BabyRage...

What a brilliant idea, to kill a god just for the Elder dragon to absorb his energy.

And to kill a god who's been a benevolent patron of warriors all this time. They just completely retconned Balthazar.

@Zenith.7301 said:What a brilliant idea, to kill a god just for the Elder dragon to absorb his energy.

And to kill a god who's been a benevolent patron of warriors all this time. They just completely retconned Balthazar.

Benevolent? He was never Benevolent to begin with. He was only out there to cause war and conflict. He motivated the Human Race to try to take over all of Tyria because he thought Tyria would be easily claimed and the other races defeated without much effort. He murdered his father and cut off his head before entering Tyria and then carried his father head with him as he entered Tyria. He killed a person after loosing a fair bet instead of accepting that he lost honestly against the person.

There is a reason why certain Humans called Balthazar "the God of Mass Murder"

@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:What a brilliant idea, to kill a god just for the Elder dragon to absorb his energy.

And to kill a god who's been a benevolent patron of warriors all this time. They just completely retconned Balthazar.

Absolutely. Balthazar was never a kind, generous father to the warrior. He was not the Guild Wars version of Tyr from Forgotten Realms. Balthazar was about survival of the strongest. Those who fell were simply unworthy, and war tests the mettle and worth of the individual and the society. Turning against the other gods because they refused to fight an enemy that he deemed worthy conforms to the god's persona and is in accordance with his deity portfolio.

@Harper.4173 said:So we all know by now how the expansion story turned out. I feel it is by far the weakest part of the expansion, which overall stands out as a very good expansion - to me at least.The problem I'm having is with how straight forward their approach to making Balthazar the villain was. And how quickly the door was closed on old lore, the gods, and anything that has to do with the human-aspect of the lore.

Back when Balthazar was first introduced in the LS and teased as a major part of PoF I was both excited and afraid - afraid something like this might happen. Still - I believed and held hope that they'd work something interesting and engaging into the expansion. I hoped that it wouldn't be just "This is Balthazar - he's the new bad guy - go fight, pursue and eventually kill him".I had hopes that maybe there'd be a plot twist, that they wouldn't serve one of the core elements of this game's lore up as just another filler enemy that you fight and kill on the premise of "he's the new bad guy now, go get him". I hoped that as we progressed through the story we'd find a complex situation, with nuances, tones of grey not just - he's bad and you're good.

I'm also disappointed by the ending - one man and an underdeveloped elder dragon spawnling going toe to toe with an incredibly powerful entity and killing him. I never imagined they'd go this far.When it became clear to me we'd eventually haven o big twist, no reveal, nothing more than killing Balthazar I still imagined it would go down differently - perhaps he'd fight it out with Kralk only for us to step in and surprise him when he's distracted or weak - but no - you fight him one on one and beat him. The absurdity still sticks in my mind and I fear may never go away.I had to write this up because I feel it was very poorly handled. It was very clear they want to shut the door on the old lore. I personally hate it.

Remember that even at this point Balthazar is still not at his previous strength. This point was driven home when you meet Kormir. The Commander is blinded through the entire encounter; he or she cannot even look upon her. Balthazar does not have the same effect. This was more on the level of fighting Mordremoth in his own mind, and the Commander had even less potent help with that.

@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:What a brilliant idea, to kill a god just for the Elder dragon to absorb his energy.

And to kill a god who's been a benevolent patron of warriors all this time. They just completely retconned Balthazar.

It's a bit more complicated than that because once it carved out a portion of Tyria for itself most of humanity seemed content to not fight further - so we can only deduce that your assumption that Balthazar's plan was to take over Tyria using humans wasn't correct. I think he supported and drove them to take a piece of the land for themselves - but by no means have I see any lore evidence pointing out he wanted to take ALL of Tyria. There is no lore that references a plan to take over everything.

You have no idea what the situation with is father was - I do agree - it's a one hell of an entry -but I don't think that proves anything other that he's willing to fight and warlike. That doesn't mean he's stupid. And yes - he's been a benevolent patron for a long time. In GW1 he allowed you into his realm and rewarded you for helping his troops in the struggle against Menzies.There is a reason why those humans only exist in GW2 - it's because he's been written as something entirely different.

@twobears.5713 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:What a brilliant idea, to kill a god just for the Elder dragon to absorb his energy.

And to kill a god who's been a benevolent patron of warriors all this time. They just completely retconned Balthazar.

@Harper.4173 said:So we all know by now how the expansion story turned out. I feel it is by far the

weakest

part of the expansion, which overall stands out as a very good expansion - to me at least.The problem I'm having is with how straight forward their approach to making Balthazar the villain was. And how quickly the door was closed on old lore, the gods, and anything that has to do with the human-aspect of the lore.

Back when Balthazar was first introduced in the LS and teased as a major part of PoF I was both excited and afraid - afraid something like this might happen. Still - I believed and held hope that they'd work something

interesting

and engaging into the expansion. I hoped that it wouldn't be just "This is Balthazar - he's the new bad guy - go fight, pursue and eventually kill him".I had hopes that maybe there'd be a plot twist, that they wouldn't serve one of the core elements of this game's lore up as just another filler enemy that you fight and kill on the premise of "he's the new bad guy now, go get him". I hoped that as we progressed through the story we'd find a complex situation, with nuances, tones of grey not just - he's bad and you're good.

I'm also disappointed by the ending - one man and an underdeveloped elder dragon spawnling going toe to toe with an incredibly powerful entity and killing him. I never imagined they'd go this far.When it became clear to me we'd eventually haven o big twist, no reveal, nothing more than killing Balthazar I still imagined it would go down differently - perhaps he'd fight it out with Kralk only for us to step in and surprise him when he's distracted or weak - but no - you fight him one on one and beat him. The absurdity still sticks in my mind and I fear may never go away.I had to write this up because I feel it was very poorly handled. It was very clear they want to shut the door on the old lore. I personally hate it.

Turning against the other gods makes sense - but it makes no sense of it happening now.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Exodus_of_the_GodsThis is when the gods left Tyria. They left - as Kormir explains in PoF because they didn't want to engage the dragons. It would have made sense for him to turn on them THEN - before they left Tyria to the mortal races and the dragons and retreated to the mists. But he doesn't.He remains God of War - he watches over from the mists and remains in full power until - at some future point in time he goes "I don't want this - I want to kill the dragons" . At this point the other gods turn on him (how?) and imprison him (how?). The problem is it is never explained WHY he decides to go a complete 180 at this future point. We clearly know this moment of "turning" happens between GW1 and PoF because in GW1 Balthazar is very much still the god of war. There's overwhelming evidence of this.

Your assumption regarding the blindness is wrong. Here's why.The blindness doesn't happen because of the amount of power an entity has - but because of its nature. "Godly" power causes it. That's why when you look at Kormir you're blinded.Balthazar doesn't blind you - but he's not godly anymore. The nature of his power has changed but that doesn't mean that he's not powerful. He's absorbed a different kind of power (or magic) - elder dragon magic.We can all agree that in the story Kormir speculates that the elder dragons MIGHT be stronger than the gods themselves - and yet you can clearly look at all of them (we've done this many times) and not be blinded - so clearly it's not the AMOUNT but the TYPE of power ( magic) that makes one lose sight.

The only gauge I can have for how powerful or not powerful he is is what they've shown us.We've seen the bloodstone explosion and we know he absorbed all that power. We've also been told he's absorbed an unknown amount of power from Jormag and Primordus and put them back to sleep (which in my mind means quite a lot of power).That in itself seems to be quite a bit more power than we can handle - and throughout the story we're shown exactly that. Each time we meet and fight he destroys us. Even with Aurene he destroys us and kills us.Then - suddenly - being given the magical sword we're a match to him? I don't accept it because nowhere in the story has it been in any way set up that said sword is THAT powerful. There's no build-up to it. The swords were powerful - sure but if they were THIS powerful how do you explain Ascalon losing the war against the Charr? They had TWO swords of this type.

No matter how you dice it - it doesn't really hold together because it was rushed. And it was poorly strung together.

Looking at what Kormir said in the instance, it's clear that there have been two stages to the gods' withdrawal (something we already 'knew', but now have more detail on). There was the first time, when they left Tyria after imprisoning Abaddon, but at that point they remained engaged with the world through answering prayers and sending avatars. According to Kormir, though, there has now been a 'second exodus' of sorts. The gods are abandoning their realms in the Mists, are no longer aware of what's going on in Tyria, and reading between the lines, are either in too remote a place, too involved in something else, or too uninterested in Tyria to return even if Kormir did tell them what was happening.

The question, then, is which of these triggered the confrontation with Balthazar, and my gold is on this second exodus. What set him off was the other five refusing to face down the elder dragons, and one thing that's been true of Balthazar in both games is that he cannot abide a coward. But why would that become a heated argument during the first exodus, when the threat was more than a thousand years in the future? Furthermore, according to Kormir, it was Abaddon's death that roused Primordus, and by extension the others. We know the gods can't see the future, so they couldn't have been sure of that happening. That leaves us a pick between an argument over a potential threat far into the future at the first exodus, or an argument over an actualized and imminent threat during the second. It seems much more likely to me that Balthazar dug in his heels during the latter, which also has the virtue of explaining why it was business as usual in the Fissure of Woe during GW1.

@Harper.4173 said:

@twobears.5713 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:What a brilliant idea, to kill a god just for the Elder dragon to absorb his energy.

And to kill a god who's been a benevolent patron of warriors all this time. They just completely retconned Balthazar.

@Harper.4173 said:So we all know by now how the expansion story turned out. I feel it is by far the

weakest

part of the expansion, which overall stands out as a very good expansion - to me at least.The problem I'm having is with how straight forward their approach to making Balthazar the villain was. And how quickly the door was closed on old lore, the gods, and anything that has to do with the human-aspect of the lore.

Back when Balthazar was first introduced in the LS and teased as a major part of PoF I was both excited and afraid - afraid something like this might happen. Still - I believed and held hope that they'd work something

interesting

and engaging into the expansion. I hoped that it wouldn't be just "This is Balthazar - he's the new bad guy - go fight, pursue and eventually kill him".I had hopes that maybe there'd be a plot twist, that they wouldn't serve one of the core elements of this game's lore up as just another filler enemy that you fight and kill on the premise of "he's the new bad guy now, go get him". I hoped that as we progressed through the story we'd find a complex situation, with nuances, tones of grey not just - he's bad and you're good.

I'm also disappointed by the ending - one man and an underdeveloped elder dragon spawnling going toe to toe with an incredibly powerful entity and killing him. I never imagined they'd go this far.When it became clear to me we'd eventually haven o big twist, no reveal, nothing more than killing Balthazar I still imagined it would go down differently - perhaps he'd fight it out with Kralk only for us to step in and surprise him when he's distracted or weak - but no - you fight him one on one and beat him. The absurdity still sticks in my mind and I fear may never go away.I had to write this up because I feel it was very poorly handled. It was very clear they want to shut the door on the old lore. I personally hate it.

I think you're conflating the Judeo-Christian-Islamic idea of godliness and the fantasy universe version of godliness. In a standard fantasy multiverse, which the Guild Wars universe is an excellent example of, there is a distinct hierarchy of souls or spirits. The gods of this universe are examples of more powerful souls; in fact some of the most powerful souls. Elder dragons, by comparison, seem to be slightly less powerful than the human gods. Our characters are on the bottom rung -- far less powerful than either of the two, with a host of other sorts filling up the gap between the big guys and our characters. The gods of this universe, like said dragons, while biologically immortal, can be killed. In that vein there is only one type of magic -- magic. Taimi's devices talk about a distinction, but this seems to be more of a case of yet another unreliable narrator, clearly there is no separation given that Balthazar is draining Primordus to use his power as his own, and uses Omad's machine to do it.

I am not sure that I agree with your summary of the conversation with Kormir either. I took several things away from the instance. First, Balthazar is not as powerful as they, as the blindness demonstrates. Second, Kormir's explanation is that the gods could have destroyed the dragons, but refrained from doing so because of the damage this would cause -- damage that Taimi's research confirmed. Last, Balthazar is thirsting for some payback, but isn't powerful enough to do it. That's why he's shooting for Kralkatorrik after all. That last point both emphasizes the first while seeming to demonstrate that it in fact is a matter of overall magical mojo, and not a matter of orange juice vs lemonade.

This was well put together, and orchestrated nicely. The setup for this was years in the making, and was perhaps the best story ArenaNet has ever put out. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it.

I think I've done a reasonable job of explaining that "blindness" does not constitute a measure of power. We don't know if Balthazar was or wasn't more powerful at the time of PoF than Kormir - we do know that he had a different kind of power by that time - having lost his "godly" magic that made him give off the blinding effect.That aside - I realize that gods in the GW2 universe are different than gods in the real world - but still, I cannot accept that we killed him in a flat out fight. It retrospectively destroys all the tension in the story.How does it still feel like a meaningful uphill struggle when Rytlock could have given us the sword all along and we could have ended it much sooner. What's to keep the sword from becoming the "end all" in the future? How will I continue to take future threats and crisis moments seriously when I know I can just borrow the sword again and win. And if I can't borrow it then comes the question - why not?

Again - I do not believe that the magic is the same - perhaps its nature if left alone is "neutral" but when engaged with an entity that magic changes. That's why we have references in the story for different types of elder dragon "magic" or "energy".

In the story Kormir mentions Balthazar wanting to fight the dragons and that the end result would be catastrophic. She mentions that there is a distinct possibility that Balthazar in his undiminished state LOSES a fight with the dragons - so clearly at this point they can be considered somewhat on par, and yet, as I pointed out above we can LOOK at them directly. The blinding effect has to do with the nature of magic not necessarily the amount of it.And while it might not be different magic in gods and dragons - the way they use it and the way it "flows" through them is unique - which is what I believe the blinding effect derives from.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Looking at what Kormir said in the instance, it's clear that there have been two stages to the gods' withdrawal (something we already 'knew', but now have more detail on). There was the first time, when they left Tyria after imprisoning Abaddon, but at that point they remained engaged with the world through answering prayers and sending avatars. According to Kormir, though, there has now been a 'second exodus' of sorts. The gods are abandoning their realms in the Mists, are no longer aware of what's going on in Tyria, and reading between the lines, are either in too remote a place, too involved in something else, or too uninterested in Tyria to return even if Kormir did tell them what was happening.

The question, then, is which of these kitten the confrontation with Balthazar, and my gold is on this second exodus. What set him off was the other five refusing to face down the elder dragons, and one thing that's been true of Balthazar in both games is that he cannot abide a coward. But why would that become a heated argument during the first exodus, when the threat was more than a thousand years in the future? Furthermore, according to Kormir, it was Abaddon's death that roused Primordus, and by extension the others. We know the gods can't see the future, so they couldn't have been sure of that happening. That leaves us a pick between an argument over a potential threat far into the future at the first exodus, or an argument over an actualized and imminent threat during the second. It seems much more likely to me that Balthazar dug in his heels during the latter, which also has the virtue of explaining why it was business as usual in the Fissure of Woe during GW1.

This makes sense - to a point. If the Balthazar always wanted to destroy the dragons - then why not push to do it when they were all still fast asleep, unable to defend themselves properly. Why wait now and fight active and powerful dragons when you can strike then, at foes that are not ready or capable to fight. This means he's quite incapable of planning. Or maybe it was his honor that got in the way.

Look this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcFEe2odAuo and compare that with ending of PoF. xD Gw was much more mature then Gw 2.

Yeah it was much more brutal back then. Some villains in Gw 2 looks like a joke compared to Gw 1. Balthazar isn't portrayed as THE real God of War because there is only one scene really where he shows how he is driven.

@Harper.4173 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:Looking at what Kormir said in the instance, it's clear that there have been two stages to the gods' withdrawal (something we already 'knew', but now have more detail on). There was the first time, when they left Tyria after imprisoning Abaddon, but at that point they remained engaged with the world through answering prayers and sending avatars. According to Kormir, though, there has now been a 'second exodus' of sorts. The gods are abandoning their realms in the Mists, are no longer aware of what's going on in Tyria, and reading between the lines, are either in too remote a place, too involved in something else, or too uninterested in Tyria to return even if Kormir did tell them what was happening.

The question, then, is which of these kitten the confrontation with Balthazar, and my gold is on this second exodus. What set him off was the other five refusing to face down the elder dragons, and one thing that's been true of Balthazar in both games is that he cannot abide a coward. But why would that become a heated argument during the first exodus, when the threat was more than a thousand years in the future? Furthermore, according to Kormir, it was Abaddon's death that roused Primordus, and by extension the others. We know the gods can't see the future, so they couldn't have been sure of that happening. That leaves us a pick between an argument over a potential threat far into the future at the first exodus, or an argument over an actualized and imminent threat during the second. It seems much more likely to me that Balthazar dug in his heels during the latter, which also has the virtue of explaining why it was business as usual in the Fissure of Woe during GW1.

The answer is simple but composed of two pieces. Bad/uninterested writing and a series of retcons to an existing and well-established character's personality to make it fit said bad/uninterested writing.

Scarlet clearly knew that the Elder Dragons can be woken up manually. Given that the Reactor fractal also dealt with how she acquired the dragon research necessary to bring about Mordremoth's awakening, it's not far-fetched to say that thematically there could have been a similar allusion with the Abaddon fractal to the notion that the war of the gods and the release of bloodstone magic came down to the disagreement between Abaddon and the Miss Tyria finalists on how to deal with the Elder Dragons; wake them up with increased magical levels and then kill them quickly before reaching full power, then absorb their power versus preserve the dragons. And as a side-effect, Abaddon's secondary intent was to arm the races of Tyria for the fight, but then the amount of magic released proved too much for them and had to be stopped before they would wipe each other out before the dragons could even rise. (Abaddon's creeds imply a heavy survival of the fittest mentality, so he might have thought the destruction of the weaker nations and species would only ensure that the strongest would remain standing, who would be much more prepared to fight with the Six against the ED). Again, the gods knew about the dragons and what could happen, what could go wrong in a conflict with them, so Abaddon must have known the consequences for both the release of the bloodstone magic as well as the death of the dragons without proper vessels to absorb their domains. Or maybe he didn't know and then Scarlet is proven to be the world's smartest and greatest genius all over again - someone more knowledgeable than the GOD of knowledge and secrets himself. (One more aside: although the Elder Dragons didn't exist back when Nightfall was written, if we take Abaddon's actions into consideration and couple it with the idea of his extensive knowledge of the dragons, he was certain he could kill them all himself. Once freed from his prison, his return to Tyria would have plunged the world into Nightfall, corrupting and warping the entire planet - which takes massive amounts of magic to pull of; enough to wake the ED. I think this alone is a clear indication he was certain that one god at his full, undiminished powers could destroy the lizards one by one and consume their power.)

So all in all, if we take the character-butchered, PoF Balthazar's motives, he clearly went against his own principles of LOVING conflict and war and wanting to fight the Elder Dragons when siding with the "cowardly hippies" against the person he's so similar to (as I've written in my thread: PoF Balthazar = Abaddon 2.0). The Balthazar that was known and established in Guild Wars decided to fight Abaddon because his plans were insane, because humanity - their sacred charge - was in danger, and Balthazar generally agreed with Dwayna & co. - he wasn't a raging madman who wanted to burn and slaughter everything just for fun and to make himself more powerful. The writing just came down to the massive, facepalm-worthy justification that Balthazar IS conflict and he wanted a shot at the Elder Dragons - whereas he attacked Abaddon 1,300 years ago for effectively wanting the same and creating global conflict. There is no amount of retcon and even more bad writing that can undo the unnecessary retcons and bad writing that made this light-years-wide plothole possible.

Or killing one ED might have woken the others. Unless they could make a simultanious assault on all EDs work (with a guaranteed kill), it could still result in an open battle on the surface of Tyria. The outcome of this discussion between the Six would probably be what we ended up seeing in PoF.

@Thalador.4218 said:

@Harper.4173 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:Looking at what Kormir said in the instance, it's clear that there have been two stages to the gods' withdrawal (something we already 'knew', but now have more detail on). There was the first time, when they left Tyria after imprisoning Abaddon, but at that point they remained engaged with the world through answering prayers and sending avatars. According to Kormir, though, there has now been a 'second exodus' of sorts. The gods are abandoning their realms in the Mists, are no longer aware of what's going on in Tyria, and reading between the lines, are either in too remote a place, too involved in something else, or too uninterested in Tyria to return even if Kormir did tell them what was happening.

The question, then, is which of these kitten the confrontation with Balthazar, and my gold is on this second exodus. What set him off was the other five refusing to face down the elder dragons, and one thing that's been true of Balthazar in both games is that he cannot abide a coward. But why would that become a heated argument during the first exodus, when the threat was more than a thousand years in the future? Furthermore, according to Kormir, it was Abaddon's death that roused Primordus, and by extension the others. We know the gods can't see the future, so they couldn't have been sure of that happening. That leaves us a pick between an argument over a potential threat far into the future at the first exodus, or an argument over an actualized and imminent threat during the second. It seems much more likely to me that Balthazar dug in his heels during the latter, which also has the virtue of explaining why it was business as usual in the Fissure of Woe during GW1.

The thread you wrote is one of the better ones on the topic - I have just finished reading it.It does indeed seem that the case is poor writing because honestly, I doubt many of the people writing Gw2's story now were involved with GW1's story - not only by working on it but involved in the sense that they played GW1, loved the story and the lore for what it was. That's a core element missing. They don't care enough about the story to actually write something that isn't a sloppy job.

The only "retcon" that could undo this entire fiasco would be the fact that the current Balthazar - the one we kill - the one that the gods diminish is somehow Menzies. I honestly don't know how they could make that work though. They could have if they had written the story specifically setting it up - but I can't see how he could have fooled the six.

@Grebcol.5984 said:Look this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcFEe2odAuo and compare that with ending of PoF. xD Gw was much more mature then Gw 2.

The tone in the entire franchise has shifted. And honestly I don't like it at all. Even though Gw1's depiction of the desert wasn't as graphically complex as today's it felt like so much of a deadlier place. It built atmosphere ? How? Through simple but effective means - like text.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bleached_BonesRead those. When I read that it made the hair on my arms stand up. That's what GW1 writing was about. It set the scene and atmosphere.The desert we venture into today feels much less threatening or lethal - mostly because it's not even as barren as it should be. It is FULL of stuff everywhere. That takes away from the notion of an accursed, inhospitable place that you have no business being in.

@Harper.4173 said:

@Grebcol.5984 said:Look this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcFEe2odAuo

and compare that with ending of PoF. xD Gw was much more mature then Gw 2.

It's because GW2 is a persistent world. They lose a lot of the charm when the areas aren't tailor made for a set party with a specific number. It's just a hodge-podge of event filled areas connected with lone vendor-trash mobs scattered about. It's pretty, but has no character.

Still - this could be addressed through story and other elements. Open world doesn't prevent them from doing stuff like the Bleached Bones of GW1 or writing genuinely sad or scary stories for NPCs and open world events.You could for example have a chain of events where you help spirits remember their gruesome and unfortunate fate only to help them obtain closure by maybe carrying their remains to a shrine.

@Grebcol.5984 said:Look this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcFEe2odAuo and compare that with ending of PoF. xD Gw was much more mature then Gw 2.

What's this about? They could have done a CGI about the Foefire, about our mentor being overwhelmed by Risen during the attack on Claw Island, about the Pact being destroyed by Mordremoth or about Balthazar hurting Vlast. It would have been epic, but CGI does not make things look more mature.

And Factions has a weak story.

I personally did not like the story.

It's cool and all, when considered independent from anything else, when put side-by-side with the wider story it does not fit in. There is a lack of internal consistency.What did the Gods do with the power that they drained from Balthazar when they turned on him? It had to go somewhere, like the power from Abaddon when he was defeated/cast down.

The Gods 'leaving gone for good' is a cop-out in my opinion. What about Dhuum in the Underworld? Or Menzies? Have the Gods just left those loose ends? Dhuum now free to break free from his prison in the Underworld with Grenth gone? It makes no sense, it is dropping well known and established stories in favour of 'new things' without properly providing closure.

Honestly, the reason given for the Exodus is -good-, they cannot fight the Dragons because that would just destroy Tyria from the collateral regardless, and they knew killing the Dragons destroys Tyria. That is a GOOD ENOUGH reason for them to stay distant, only reachable through extreme effort and travelling to the Mist. But to just completely withdraw, can't even be contacted them is extremely forced. What about the afterlives and realms they are supposed to manage?

The human narrative has been treated unfairly, people go "Oh but GW1 was all about humans now it's time for other things" I would agree with that, but one simple point:The Gods were NOT just unique to Humans. They had a part of the Eternal Alchemy according to the Asura, if they just leave entirely, what then? The Norn consider them Spirits of Action, if not Spirits of the Wild. The Quaggan worship Melandru, the Dwarves worshipped the Six, the Forgotten worked for the Six. Also, did anyone notice the spirits of other races in the Underworld segment of the Story? Yeah. The Underworld is not unique to humans. Something needs to manage it.

This is very important: The Gods are not a Human-only thing. They are an integral part of the Guild Wars Universe and ArenaNet can't just strip them away just like that.

Also, the Norn still have their Spirits, the Sylvari still have their mother, the Charr haven't needed gods and that's part of their narrative, but for the Humans it very much is part of their narrative and just taking it away or invalidating reeks of "Haha you humans are so stupid putting your faith in beings that just turn their backs on you haha!" It seems -spiteful-, not interesting.

I'm just going to headcanon that the Judge is actually Grenth in disguise because the God of the Underworld leaving it unmanaged is a REALLY STUPID IDEA. (Also when he said "Remind Balthazar that not even gods escape judgement" sounded a bit too personal and something that would come from Grenth's mouth)

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:The human narrative has been treated unfairly, people go "Oh but GW1 was all about humans now it's time for other things" I would agree with that, but one simple point:The Gods were NOT just unique to Humans. They had a part of the Eternal Alchemy according to the Asura, if they just leave entirely, what then? The Norn consider them Spirits of Action, if not Spirits of the Wild. The Quaggan worship Melandru, the Dwarves worshipped the Six, the Forgotten worked for the Six. Also, did anyone notice the spirits of other races in the Underworld segment of the Story? Yeah. The Underworld is not unique to humans. Something needs to manage it.

This is very important: The Gods are not a Human-only thing. They are an integral part of the Guild Wars Universe and ArenaNet can't just strip them away just like that.

Also, the Norn still have their Spirits, the Sylvari still have their mother, the Charr haven't needed gods and that's part of their narrative, but for the Humans it very much is part of their narrative and just taking it away or invalidating reeks of "Haha you humans are so stupid putting your faith in beings that just turn their backs on you haha!"

Caithe: That creator now lies vanquished. Where does that leave the sylvari? What is our place in this new world we've created?Caithe: No one can answer those questions for us. We must answer them with action. There is much to do.

Humans just have to do the same, and they did just fine without gods for centuries.

Now they are left in the world they were brought in. They are the heritage of the gods in Tyria, and they can do whatever they want with it.

The sylvari still have the Pale Tree.And that still does not address the underlying issues and the problems it causes for the narrative to just have the Gods completely gone.