Why is killing the Elder Dragons bad again? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why is killing the Elder Dragons bad again?

Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

I mean, yeah yeah it will mess with all the naturally-occurring magic on Tyria but what’s really bad about that?

Now, of course the people of Tyria are used to magic being a natural element of their world and have grown accustomed to it (Asura in particular) and fear losing it. But in the face the threat posed by the Dragons would it not be worth it?

Sure, again the Asura civilization might not survive without magic but the rest should. Both human and Charr have rudimentary technology not based on magic, and Norns don’t particularly use either. Sylvari... I don’t know. But like Asura they’d be taken in by the other races I’m sure.

So in the end you’ll just end up with a bit more primitive world (until the races adapt and make real technology to compensate) without the threat of Dragons. Plus wouldn’t magic going bye bye also take care of super-magical jerks like Joko?

Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

<13

Comments

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Alchimist.4738Alchimist.4738 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2018

    Killing them releases too much energy in the world, consequently leading the world to tear itself apart, this is what we're seeing with the leyline anomalies.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    MAJOR SPOILERS
    It doesn't remove magic from the world, it distributes too much into it. The Dragons work like energy reservoirs in a closed system.

    Excess magic of any kind is toxic, especially arcane energy which is essentially radiation (Thaumanova, Crucible of Eternity), and some forms of magic are just plain unstable in high quantities - see the various magic-infused elementals, anomalies and singularities.

    I hope this helps to explain things.

    @Alchimist.4738 said:
    Killing them releases too much energy in the world, consequently leading the world to tear itself apart, this is what we're seeing with the leyline anomalies.

    Well, IF:
    1. The Magic contained by the dragons + free magic contained in Tyria = constant and
    2. All the magic in the system becoming free magic will destroy the world, THEN

    It is obvious that for the forming of Tyria (the "birth" of the world) we can have the following scenarios:
    1. The magic belongs natively to Tyria but being too much the magic should destroy the world. And in this case the dragons appears. That means the dragons are older than Tyria. And the status of "force of nature" is not enough to describe them. They are much more gods. Real gods. A question remains: Did the dragons create Tyria? If YES, then our search is over. The Dragons are the real gods. If NO, that means they were created before Tyria with a purpose - to keep the world to not be destroyed by its own magic. In this case the creator of the Dragon is the true God (or Gods if the Creation was a collective act). Anyhow, in this scenario we have nothing to do. We should learn to live with the dragons without killing them. We can (in the best case) replace them with something playing the same role. Why this situation? Because the Dragons either created Tyria for them and the magic mechanism was designed to protect them OR they were created with the purpose of keeping the balance of magic.

    **2. The magic does not belong to Tyria and it was brought at one certain moment by someone or something (a cataclysm / event etc). ** Being so related with the cycle of magic, that means the dragons does not belong to Tyria either. They come in Tyria after the world formed. And started to do what we know - gathering the magic when active then releasing it when sleeping. In this case we have a new option: To find a way to gather the excess of magic and to release it to where it initially come: In the Mist / Space / .... etc. This opens the possibility to kill the dragons.

    In my opinion, this unclear situation was created by the refuse of the developers / lore team to state their position regarding the formation of Tyria: It is Tyria created? Then the Creator(s) is/are the real God(s). And we can try to find a future for the story based on this statements.
    Or - Tyria formed by itself? In this case no God(s) is/are involved and we can focus on the best follow up of the story: The hunt of the remaining false gods. We know now that Kormir used a device to absorb Abadon's magic. That means the item has nothing divine - it was a product of advanced magic or advanced technology. I'm pretty sure the Assura can create something like that if necessary.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭

    If the amount of magic in Tyria is constant, that raises the question of how Tyria ever survived long enough for the Elder Dragons to be born, unless they replaced a pre-existing system of balance. I guess Anet could argue that the dragons actually pre-date Tyria and were born in primordial chaos, but that's going to be a hard sell.

    If it isn't constant and it's more a question of sources and sinks (with the dragons acting as sinks), then what are the sources?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

    I agree as well. Especially with how Zhaitan's domain in Orr really oozed Lovecraftian vibes and I loved it.

    But on the other hand I completely understand Anet not wanting us to simply go on a killing spree and knocking the Dragons out one after another until they were all gone as well. They wanted to mix the story up wih a twist/hook like this and I commend them for it.

    Yes I get that too. That's why (for me) it was so important to keep villains like Joko, LAzarus, Caudecus, Baelfire or any other of their invention at the forefront of the story, so the Dragons could be the force of nature in the background. That would be better for world building in my eyes too

  • Kalocin.5982Kalocin.5982 Member ✭✭✭

    To keep it simple, the Elder Dragons are sentient nuclear bombs. Putting them back to sleep is resetting their detonation timer.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The elder dragons are both good are bad.

    They keep magic flowing and prevent magic from overflowing the environment so there isn't too much ambient magic all over the world. When that fails, you get horrible environmental disasters and ley-infested creatures that see hallucinations and attack everything on sight.

    But they also hog too much magic in one go, depleting the world of magic and destroying and killing anything in their path.

    The Vigil just wanted to destroy them. Which is a very bad idea alone.

    The Order of Whispers believe that killing them was simply impossible, and that the only option was putting them back to sleep.

    And the Durmand Priory knew that killing them was a bad idea, but that leaving them alive was worse, so they had to be eliminated. We later learn they had contacts with Glint's legacy through Ogden. But apparently any information on Glint's plan was super-duper top secret.

    In Kesho we learn the specifics of the plan, but we also learn that those who started it are gone, corrupted by Kralkatorrik.

    The solution now is replacing them with entities that will not absorb magic until they are full, and then slowly release it, but with entities that will be constantly absorving and releasing magic, keeping it flowing at a steady amount of magic in the ambient and preventing it from overflowing.

    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

    Daisuki[SUKI] Founder | Mains Mariyuuna, Water mage |+
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  • Invidia.9074Invidia.9074 Member ✭✭

    I wonder if it has to be a draconic replacement. Maybe a properly tweaked Bloodstone could fill the role? That would make it definitely easier...

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, yeah yeah it will mess with all the naturally-occurring magic on Tyria but what’s really bad about that?

    Now, of course the people of Tyria are used to magic being a natural element of their world and have grown accustomed to it (Asura in particular) and fear losing it. But in the face the threat posed by the Dragons would it not be worth it?

    Sure, again the Asura civilization might not survive without magic but the rest should. Both human and Charr have rudimentary technology not based on magic, and Norns don’t particularly use either. Sylvari... I don’t know. But like Asura they’d be taken in by the other races I’m sure.

    So in the end you’ll just end up with a bit more primitive world (until the races adapt and make real technology to compensate) without the threat of Dragons. Plus wouldn’t magic going bye bye also take care of super-magical jerks like Joko?

    it's not just a matter of magic balance, Taimi's simulation showed Tyria "breaking" suggesting that the world will be destroyed.

    also the vision provided by Eye of Janthir suggests a cataclysm.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Haha, thanks for the replies everyone. Can't believe how many plot points I've flat out forgotten...!

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Alga.6498Alga.6498 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Spoilers

    At some point all of the Elder Dragons need to be killed. They are still a huge treat against all living being in Tyria.

    What we need is something that could suck in all of these overflowing magic so it wont destroy anything more.

    Since Jormag and Primordus falled back to sleep once again and we still know nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon, Slebbub, if she/he are awaken or still sleeping.
    Kralkatorrik needs to be taken down ASAP since he's so powerful now after sucking in Balthazar's overflown magic after we defeated him in Elona.

    Pretty sure the Living World S4 ending will be awesome, 😁😁

    | Separatist | Nightmare Court | Inquest | White Mantle | Sunspears | Loyalists | Ascalon | Kryta | Ebonhawke | Elona | Istan | Kourna | Vabbi | Cantha | Luxon | Kurzick | 71 characters | "Rally to me, Ascalonians!" "Keep Ascalon in your heart." "May the Gods protect you." "Be blessed by the Six."

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, yeah yeah it will mess with all the naturally-occurring magic on Tyria but what’s really bad about that?

    Imagine you have a table, and on that table is a bowl filled with water.
    In this example, the Elder Dragons are the six legs of the table; the bowl of water is magic.
    Cut off some table legs. What happens?

    One big goddamned mess.

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Now, of course the people of Tyria are used to magic being a natural element of their world and have grown accustomed to it (Asura in particular) and fear losing it. But in the face the threat posed by the Dragons would it not be worth it?

    Killing Elder Dragons doesn't remove magic. It adds it - too much of it.

    To not use metaphors and to instead quote an NPC from Season 2:

    Ogden Stonehealer: Too much magic, and the world spins out of control. Too little, and it crumbles into darkness.

    Thaumanova and Bloodstone Fen are perfect examples of "too much magic" in the world. And killing the Elder Dragons just keeps adding magic into the world. But that's just the surface problem. There is a second reason to not kill Elder Dragons: The All.

    The All is literally the functionality of the world. And the Elder Dragons are an integal part of that system. Killing the Elder Dragons throws that system out of wack, resulting in the world dying off.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    The Human Gods and the Bloodstones also hold magic in a similar way, which has also begun to be released. This is especially dangerous since in these cases, we're introducing external magic into the closed system of Tyria, stressing an already failing system.

    The Bloodstones don't add external magic into the system. It was made by taking magic in the world in the first place. And there's nothing that tells us the gods added magic to the system - even Abaddon's death was contained after a bit with little outbreak. Balthazar's death similarly didn't add (much?) external magic, as what got released was primarily (solely?) magic from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    Besides, there's similarly nothing to say that Tyria's magic is a closed system. We see a multitude of rifts from the Mists, which would theoretically be adding magic into the world. It's entirely possible they or something else also removes magic (or magic suffers from entropy at a relatively equal rate to these rifts adding magic).

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion, this unclear situation was created by the refuse of the developers / lore team to state their position regarding the formation of Tyria: It is Tyria created? Then the Creator(s) is/are the real God(s). And we can try to find a future for the story based on this statements.
    Or - Tyria formed by itself? In this case no God(s) is/are involved and we can focus on the best follow up of the story: The hunt of the remaining false gods. We know now that Kormir used a device to absorb Abadon's magic. That means the item has nothing divine - it was a product of advanced magic or advanced technology. I'm pretty sure the Assura can create something like that if necessary.

    Everything traces its origins back to The Mists, and it's likely entire planets would too.

    Just because there is no Abrahamic monotheistic god, doesn't mean all other gods are false. Similarly, Kormir did not use a "device" (I don't know where you got that from), she was literally given a magical blessing from the other five gods. A divine gift by a divine being is the only way for a mortal to absorb enough magic to become a god.

    "The gods appeared to us and gave Kormir a special, secret blessing. We had hoped for more direct involvement in our battle against a god, but we held our heads high and charged into battle with our ultimate foe. We fought with all of our might, all of our power and passion. In the end, the god's gift to Kormir was indeed integral to our victory. At the moment of his death, Abaddon unleashed all of his pent-up power. With nowhere to go, this rogue power would have destroyed both the realm of Torment and Tyria. In a moment of heroism unmatched before or since, Kormir threw herself into the path of this dark power. The gift of the gods soaked up all that power and knowledge, however, turning Kormir into a goddess in her own right. Kormir sacrificed her mortal life to save us all and was reborn as the Goddess of Truth. Abaddon was dead, but there was still work to do. With Kormir's passing from the mortal realm, the duty falls to me to assist those in need. My future lies out there, on the road, fighting for justice and for truth."
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls

    An asura cannot copy such a thing.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

    Tequatl was replacing Zhaitan. He's canonically dead as of Season 1 (Rox even lugged its tail around after confirming the kill).

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

    I agree as well. Especially with how Zhaitan's domain in Orr really oozed Lovecraftian vibes and I loved it.

    But on the other hand I completely understand Anet not wanting us to simply go on a killing spree and knocking the Dragons out one after another until they were all gone as well. They wanted to mix the story up wih a twist/hook like this and I commend them for it.

    Yes I get that too. That's why (for me) it was so important to keep villains like Joko, LAzarus, Caudecus, Baelfire or any other of their invention at the forefront of the story, so the Dragons could be the force of nature in the background. That would be better for world building in my eyes too

    I similarly agree. I think it was a bad move on ArenaNet's part to immediately kill off (or even put to sleep) an Elder Dragon. I feel like the first release should have focused on a lesser villain that was a threat to enough of the races (Ulgoth could have filled that role rather easily, since he was already hating on both norn and humans, and through the White Mantle could have pulled in Sinister Triad backing for a brief show of White Mantle, Nightmare Court, and Inquest hostilities (thus bringing in asura and sylvari seamlessly) without eliminating them entirely), and hadn't used Jormag to relocate the norn but instead have him and Zhaitan as distant, barely-felt threats just like Primordus was.

    But what's done is done.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The Bloodstones don't add external magic into the system. It was made by taking magic in the world in the first place. And there's nothing that tells us the gods added magic to the system - even Abaddon's death was contained after a bit with little outbreak. Balthazar's death similarly didn't add (much?) external magic, as what got released was primarily (solely?) magic from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    I think your right with Balthazar as he didn’t introduce magic that wasn’t already there.

    Abaddon on the other hand played a larger role with causing imbalance upon his death and his power being absorbed by Kormir.

    According to Kormir in Facing the Truth:

    Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.
    Kormir: The surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria, and stirred Primordus from his slumber—triggering this latest cycle of destruction.

    It seems Abaddon added additional magic to the magic pool in Tyria and apparently it wasn’t just a trickle of magic, but a surge of power which upended the balance of magic. Which is interesting into itself, because it seems Primordus gained some of Abaddon’s god magic too.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2018

    What Kormir says isn't "Abaddon's magic surged into Tyria causing Primordus to stir". She's saying "the temporarily released but eventually fully contained magic (into me) magic was enough to make Primordus stir". There's a difference, and the difference lies in the prior sentence:

    Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.

    She contained any damage, but the risk of that damage had already triggered the secondary problem.

    Besides all that, Abaddon wasn't killed near Tyria but in the heart of his own realm. His magic would have to travel to the outskirts of his realm to seep into Tyria. Furthermore, in the cinematic in GW1 we see all the magic get absorbed by Kormir anyways.

    If Abaddon added any magic into Tyria, it would be via the stuff that forms into tormented remnants and what the djinn use to create jackals.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What Kormir says isn't "Abaddon's magic surged into Tyria causing Primordus to stir". She's saying "the temporarily released but eventually fully contained magic (into me) magic was enough to make Primordus stir". There's a difference, and the difference lies in the prior sentence:

    Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.

    She contained any damage, but the risk of that damage had already triggered the secondary problem.

    Besides all that, Abaddon wasn't killed near Tyria but in the heart of his own realm. His magic would have to travel to the outskirts of his realm to seep into Tyria. Furthermore, in the cinematic in GW1 we see all the magic get absorbed by Kormir anyways.

    If Abaddon added any magic into Tyria, it would be via the stuff that forms into tormented remnants and what the djinn use to create jackals.

    Except what was said next was that the surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria.

    Upended: to turn something upside down, to change position, turn, spin, overturn

    Overturn the balance of magic in Tyria? How could it do that, unless Abaddon’s magic was seeping in.

    Hero: Abaddon is breaking up!
    Kormir: Incredible! All that knowledge!
    Hero: It's running wild! It will destroy everything!
    Kormir: I can contain the power—
    Hero: Kormir! No!

    Before Abaddon was killed, magic was at balance, the dragon’s were there doing their job. When Abaddon was releasing his magic he caused Primordus to stir. What would make Primordus begin to stir? Magic. Just like how Scarlet sent a large dose of Leyline magic toward Mordremoth.

    Edit: The damage as stated by the Hero was that it would destroy everything and Kormir absorbed the damage, which would have ended the planet. Some of that magic would still seep out and power up Primordus. Would it be world ending amount of magic, no, but it would be enough to overturn the magical balance in Tyria as Kormir stated. Any magic that would have caused Primordus to stir, would been absorbed by the dragon.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2018

    I think you're taking things too literally, but to go with that literal route:

    Magic was never really balanced (going from one extreme to another is hardly balancing; and GW1 was in the latter half but not at the extreme yet), and the dragons were not doing their job (nor do they seem to want to, as all of them seem to just want to eat as much magic as possible, for various goals, but are smart enough not to eat so much the world ends from lack of magic).

    I mean, the whole fact that the Elder Dragons don't properly balance magic is the entire purpose of the multi-millennia long planning that is dubbed Glint's Legacy. Her line of "upending balance" could simply mean that it stirred the Elder Dragons sooner than they should have been - that would certainly be enough to mess with the already precarious balance of magic.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Edit: The damage as stated by the Hero was that it would destroy everything and Kormir absorbed the damage, which would have ended the planet. Some of that magic would still seep out and power up Primordus. Would it be world ending amount of magic, no, but it would be enough to overturn the magical balance in Tyria as Kormir stated. Any magic that would have caused Primordus to stir, would been absorbed by the dragon.

    Key word is that it would have reached the planet should it have exploded. But it didn't yet. There wasn't enough time before it all got absorbed beyond allowing Primordus to sense a sudden burst (then sudden disappearance) of magic.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I think you're taking things too literally, but to go with that literal route:

    Magic was never really balanced (going from one extreme to another is hardly balancing; and GW1 was in the latter half but not at the extreme yet), and the dragons were not doing their job (nor do they seem to want to, as all of them seem to just want to eat as much magic as possible, for various goals, but are smart enough not to eat so much the world ends from lack of magic).

    I mean, the whole fact that the Elder Dragons don't properly balance magic is the entire purpose of the multi-millennia long planning that is dubbed Glint's Legacy. Her line of "upending balance" could simply mean that it stirred the Elder Dragons sooner than they should have been - that would certainly be enough to mess with the already precarious balance of magic.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Edit: The damage as stated by the Hero was that it would destroy everything and Kormir absorbed the damage, which would have ended the planet. Some of that magic would still seep out and power up Primordus. Would it be world ending amount of magic, no, but it would be enough to overturn the magical balance in Tyria as Kormir stated. Any magic that would have caused Primordus to stir, would been absorbed by the dragon.

    Key word is that it would have reached the planet should it have exploded. But it didn't yet. There wasn't enough time before it all got absorbed beyond allowing Primordus to sense a sudden burst (then sudden disappearance) of magic.

    I guess we have more plot clarification points for the next Ama, Konig, thank you for your discussion.

  • Edelweiss.4261Edelweiss.4261 Member ✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    If anything, making them so integral to existence only strengthens the ties to Lovecraft in how hopeless it is to struggle against them. What has ruined the Elder Dragons, in my opinion, is our ability to destroy them as well as Anet's characterization of Mordremoth. Mordremoth thought too much like a human to exist as a force of nature or cosmic entity. It's hard to fear Mordremoth as some unknowable monster when he is characterized as any other human villain. I just hope Anet won't repeat this mistake with the remaining Elder Dragons.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2018

    don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue

    Oh, I can think of an emperor of a certain empire, which might make a good antagonist.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue

    Oh, I can think of an emperor of a certain empire, which might make a good antagonist.

    I honestly hope we don't go either of those routes. Not only would it utterly destroy what remains of the integrity of the gods' lore if any of the gods aside Kormir (and only Kormir because of this guy) go evil. They might be able to stretch Lyssa into it given her lore from the NF manual, but that's still a worse stretch than Balthaddon going evil.

    And it seems silly to do yet another "evil emperor" subplot (because let's face it, if it isn't a god or dragon, Anet's not going to treat it as a main villain anymore; they suffer from the dragonball villain complex - that is, "next villain will be 10x stronger than the previous one" kind of stuff). Especially since there's no real reason to make the current emperor evil. Especially since they welcomed the multi-racial foreigners known as Zephyrites for trade (per Festival of the Four Winds subtle-not-so-subtle commentary). So they're not full out xenophobe (anymore). Unless they go and make either Usoku or Xun Rao some 150/250 year old villain, but that would just be a repeat of Lazarus and Joko.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue

    Oh, I can think of an emperor of a certain empire, which might make a good antagonist.

    I honestly hope we don't go either of those routes. Not only would it utterly destroy what remains of the integrity of the gods' lore if any of the gods aside Kormir (and only Kormir because of this guy) go evil. They might be able to stretch Lyssa into it given her lore from the NF manual, but that's still a worse stretch than Balthaddon going evil.

    And it seems silly to do yet another "evil emperor" subplot (because let's face it, if it isn't a god or dragon, Anet's not going to treat it as a main villain anymore; they suffer from the dragonball villain complex - that is, "next villain will be 10x stronger than the previous one" kind of stuff). Especially since there's no real reason to make the current emperor evil. Especially since they welcomed the multi-racial foreigners known as Zephyrites for trade (per Festival of the Four Winds subtle-not-so-subtle commentary). So they're not full out xenophobe (anymore). Unless they go and make either Usoku or Xun Rao some 150/250 year old villain, but that would just be a repeat of Lazarus and Joko.

    They spent a lot of time with GW beyond Winds of Change setting up the ministry of purity to be the bad guys, which then created this xenophobic nation with it’s the new Emperor. The ministry was never really defeated either, just it’s current leader. Then they pushing all non humans out and conquering the Luzon and the Kurzicks.

    It seems like they are trying to create the dragon empire into a villain.

    As for the emperor, I imagine it would be a descendant of Usoku, rather then Usoku himself.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2018

    I would disagree. Firstly, because Winds of Change came after the xenophobia in terms of design, it was created more as an explanation for what would happen. The xenophobia itself was pretty obviously done to explain why it's inaccessible in the base GW2 game, and so as to allow a lot of leeway for how they want to change it for later with the excuse of "no contact."

    Elona was very much done the same - Joko conquers and Elona gets cut off because of such, presenting a situation of no contact allowing Anet to alter the society as they see fit "at a later date" while simultaneously explaining "why no Elona in base game". The main difference being that Joko was a pre-established villain with pre-established goals of conquering Elona, whereas they had invented a villain for Cantha's xenophobia after determining it would get cut off.

    They even seeded an, albeit vague, reason to believe Cantha's xenophobia lasted only one or two generations in the very first instance we were told of Cantha's xenophobia. It was vague enough that they could dismiss it if they wanted to make Cantha still xenophobic, while presented as a perfect thing to point to for why they actually weren't xenophobic for quite some time. That reason being:

    Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles , but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

    If Cantha was truly xenophobic, there'd be no sailors reaching the shores of Tyria, a good few hundred miles away from the Battle Isles let alone Cantha. It's too great a distance, suggesting that at least for some time, Canthan sailors were trying to reach Tyria. Unless they were an invading fleet or refugees, they'd be merchants and ambassadors trying to make contact.

    Mind you, this was partially retconned by the release of the game in the form of the tengu's history of arriving after Orr's rise (and at the same time it should be noted that Zhaitan and Jormag's rising were swapped in the Movement compared to the game).

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Isolationism doesn’t have to imply xenophobia.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alga.6498 said:
    the Deep Sea Dragon, Slebbub, if she/he are awaken or still sleeping.

    he's awake, his tomfoolery is why the largos and quaggan went land inwards.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Isolationism doesn’t have to imply xenophobia.

    Expunging other species and ethnicities from your territory, however, does.

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Alga.6498 said:
    the Deep Sea Dragon, Slebbub, if she/he are awaken or still sleeping.

    he's awake, his tomfoolery is why the largos and quaggan went land inwards.

    And the krait, and the karka.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I would disagree. Firstly, because Winds of Change came after the xenophobia in terms of design, it was created more as an explanation for what would happen. The xenophobia itself was pretty obviously done to explain why it's inaccessible in the base GW2 game, and so as to allow a lot of leeway for how they want to change it for later with the excuse of "no contact."

    Elona was very much done the same - Joko conquers and Elona gets cut off because of such, presenting a situation of no contact allowing Anet to alter the society as they see fit "at a later date" while simultaneously explaining "why no Elona in base game". The main difference being that Joko was a pre-established villain with pre-established goals of conquering Elona, whereas they had invented a villain for Cantha's xenophobia after determining it would get cut off.

    They even seeded an, albeit vague, reason to believe Cantha's xenophobia lasted only one or two generations in the very first instance we were told of Cantha's xenophobia. It was vague enough that they could dismiss it if they wanted to make Cantha still xenophobic, while presented as a perfect thing to point to for why they actually weren't xenophobic for quite some time. That reason being:

    Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles , but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

    If Cantha was truly xenophobic, there'd be no sailors reaching the shores of Tyria, a good few hundred miles away from the Battle Isles let alone Cantha. It's too great a distance, suggesting that at least for some time, Canthan sailors were trying to reach Tyria. Unless they were an invading fleet or refugees, they'd be merchants and ambassadors trying to make contact.

    Mind you, this was partially retconned by the release of the game in the form of the tengu's history of arriving after Orr's rise (and at the same time it should be noted that Zhaitan and Jormag's rising were swapped in the Movement compared to the game).

    It is possible that everything is Cantha is now all good and things have changed for the better, however it would feel like such a cop out and a big waste of Winds of Change, like the story to come after would be pointless.

    If they wanted Cantha isolated purely, they could really only need to explain that Cantha was isolated by Zhaitan rising.

    In the same article though to explain the sailors on shore it did say people could leave Cantha if they didn’t agree to their ways.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    cantha is going to be a flooded wasteland thanks to our sea dragon friend.

    can't have human fatigue after all

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    cantha is going to be a flooded wasteland thanks to our sea dragon friend.

    can't have human fatigue after all

    Hard to say, we could head back to Cantha and find out there is a new faction war occurring with the DSD somehow playing apart of the local catastrophe.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

    No she is not. At no point has it even been suggested that the Avatar of the Pale Tree is a purified Dragon Champion.

    @Alga.6498 said:

    At some point all of the Elder Dragons need to be killed. They are still a huge treat against all living being in Tyria.

    No actually, since we know Deus Ex Taimi could re-purpose Omadd's machine and nearly stopped 2 by itself [and no, the whole "but the machine is unique!" thing doesn't work. If Omadd could do it, Taimi easily could after she literally re-purposed it. Same with Snaff apparently CONTROLLING Kralkatorrik way back during Destiny's Edge's fight with him.

    I think it's a bit obvious by now that they'll do more with Aurene than just have her replace Kralkatorikk. She and Kralk have so much power right now from many sources [Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus and Jormag through Balthazar's absorption of their magic, Balthazar's magic itself, the Bloodstone and now Aurene has Joko's magic as well] that i think it's a little bit clear they'll eventually try to replace the entire Elder Dragon system with Aurene alone, maybe with the Gods returning to keep her stable since we already know they are actual beings and i'm pretty sure they'll return once they hear of 3 Dragons dying [VERY obvious we'll kill Kralkatorrik, no way we'll leave a Dragon like him alive, especially since it would FINALLY finish Destiny's Edge's arc since they failed against him].

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

    No she is not. At no point has it even been suggested that the Avatar of the Pale Tree is a purified Dragon Champion.

    The entire premise of the "sylvari are dragon minions" is that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, as not only are sylvari made by the Pale Tree (a good version of Blighting Trees), but only a dragon champion can produce so many dragon minions (aka sylvari) so quickly. And given that she has free will, she has to be purified.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Alga.6498 said:

    At some point all of the Elder Dragons need to be killed. They are still a huge treat against all living being in Tyria.

    No actually, since we know Deus Ex Taimi could re-purpose Omadd's machine and nearly stopped 2 by itself [and no, the whole "but the machine is unique!" thing doesn't work. If Omadd could do it, Taimi easily could after she literally re-purposed it. Same with Snaff apparently CONTROLLING Kralkatorrik way back during Destiny's Edge's fight with him.

    Except that Taimi never knew how Omadd did it, she even admitted such after re-purposing it. The machine is destroyed and it's not coming back. As for Snaff controlling Kralkatorrik - that's not exactly true; what Snaff did was temporarily cause muscle spasms with immense concentration. Which is a very far cry from controlling an Elder Dragon. And 100% not a viable solution to "the Elder Dragons want to consume the world" issue.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    I think it's a bit obvious by now that they'll do more with Aurene than just have her replace Kralkatorikk. She and Kralk have so much power right now from many sources [Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus and Jormag through Balthazar's absorption of their magic, Balthazar's magic itself, the Bloodstone and now Aurene has Joko's magic as well] that i think it's a little bit clear they'll eventually try to replace the entire Elder Dragon system with Aurene alone, maybe with the Gods returning to keep her stable since we already know they are actual beings and i'm pretty sure they'll return once they hear of 3 Dragons dying [VERY obvious we'll kill Kralkatorrik, no way we'll leave a Dragon like him alive, especially since it would FINALLY finish Destiny's Edge's arc since they failed against him].

    Except that it's been explicitly stated that there must be at least four Elder Dragons, at relatively equal power, for The All to be balanced.

    In Season 3, Taimi explains that if "one more dragon" dies, then The All falls irrevocably out of balance. At the end of Path of Fire, when in formed that Kralkatorrik ate Balthazar's magic, she states that Kralk's power boost will only further imbalance The All.

    Meaning that even if there were four Elder Dragons, but one was far stronger than the other three, The All would still be imbalanced and the world would be destroyed.

    So that means, the end solution requires a bare minimum of "four Elder Dragons of equal power". Unless ArenaNet feels like retconning themselves.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

    SPOILERS
    As per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

    Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

    No she is not. At no point has it even been suggested that the Avatar of the Pale Tree is a purified Dragon Champion.

    The entire premise of the "sylvari are dragon minions" is that the Pale Tree is a dragon champion, as not only are sylvari made by the Pale Tree (a good version of Blighting Trees), but only a dragon champion can produce so many dragon minions (aka sylvari) so quickly. And given that she has free will, she has to be purified.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Alga.6498 said:

    At some point all of the Elder Dragons need to be killed. They are still a huge treat against all living being in Tyria.

    No actually, since we know Deus Ex Taimi could re-purpose Omadd's machine and nearly stopped 2 by itself [and no, the whole "but the machine is unique!" thing doesn't work. If Omadd could do it, Taimi easily could after she literally re-purposed it. Same with Snaff apparently CONTROLLING Kralkatorrik way back during Destiny's Edge's fight with him.

    Except that Taimi never knew how Omadd did it, she even admitted such after re-purposing it. The machine is destroyed and it's not coming back. As for Snaff controlling Kralkatorrik - that's not exactly true; what Snaff did was temporarily cause muscle spasms with immense concentration. Which is a very far cry from controlling an Elder Dragon. And 100% not a viable solution to "the Elder Dragons want to consume the world" issue.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    I think it's a bit obvious by now that they'll do more with Aurene than just have her replace Kralkatorikk. She and Kralk have so much power right now from many sources [Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus and Jormag through Balthazar's absorption of their magic, Balthazar's magic itself, the Bloodstone and now Aurene has Joko's magic as well] that i think it's a little bit clear they'll eventually try to replace the entire Elder Dragon system with Aurene alone, maybe with the Gods returning to keep her stable since we already know they are actual beings and i'm pretty sure they'll return once they hear of 3 Dragons dying [VERY obvious we'll kill Kralkatorrik, no way we'll leave a Dragon like him alive, especially since it would FINALLY finish Destiny's Edge's arc since they failed against him].

    Except that it's been explicitly stated that there must be at least four Elder Dragons, at relatively equal power, for The All to be balanced.

    In Season 3, Taimi explains that if "one more dragon" dies, then The All falls irrevocably out of balance. At the end of Path of Fire, when in formed that Kralkatorrik ate Balthazar's magic, she states that Kralk's power boost will only further imbalance The All.

    Meaning that even if there were four Elder Dragons, but one was far stronger than the other three, The All would still be imbalanced and the world would be destroyed.

    So that means, the end solution requires a bare minimum of "four Elder Dragons of equal power". Unless ArenaNet feels like retconning themselves.

    1. Again, at no point was it hinted the Avatar was a Dragon Champion, especially when not even she says anything about it once you figure out the truth and not even she knows what the Dream is.

    2. The book flatout said that Snaff controlled Kralkatorrik for a moment.

    3. The Shadow of the Dragon from the Sylvari starting mission is revealed to be Mordremoth's Dragon Champion and at no point has a Champion been humanoid, they're always draconic.

    4. If she was able to modify Omadd's machine, it can be assumed that she can eventually learn to replicate it. She's the almighty progeny that makes almighty Zojja look like a kid that doesn't know what 2+2, the girl that figured out the Dragons' weaknesses, how to exploit it AND that she could modify a device she mentions she has no idea how it was made.

    5. It was mentioned that Tyria HAD the Dragons as the way to regulate magic for millenia, not that they could not be replaced. Kormir replaced Abaddon as a God [meaning even these "Gods" can be replaced, by mortals no less] and Glint's plan was to replace Kralkatorrik with Aurene and Vlast, this means they CAN be replaced.

    6. Right now, Kralkatorrik has the power of 4 fellow Elder Dragons, the Bloodstone and Balthazar's godly magic [with Aurene having EVEN MORE by eating Joko and she's not even an adult dragon yet]. If having only 1 of them too powerful would throw everything into chaos, then it would've happened the moment we killed Balthazar, but it didn't. This kinda implies that one Dragon actually could shoulder the burden, at least temporarily [and with Aurene having Joko's magic, we can assume she could also Awaken like he does, which could translate to Aurene reviving and controlling the dead Dragons to keep them in check].

    7. Taimi's "if one more dragon dies" comment was before Balthazar absorbed Primordus and Jormag's magic, this was before we learned of Glint's Legacy and that she wanted to replace Kralk with her children. Again, this implies they CAN be replaced and the fact Glint had children very heavily implies other Champions could have them too.

  • Knuckle Joe.7408Knuckle Joe.7408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2018

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

    I actually like it! That plit twist was one of the best things the writers came up with IMHO. Big bad dragons that needed to be killed was kind of cliche to begin with, but oh look, if you elave them alone they destroy the world, if you kill them they also destroy the world. Our heroes had to find a way to survive despite these impossible odds.

    However, it could've been better written after that, though. Simply putting two dragons to sleep at the same time with the machine from Taimi's was, well... lazy. I'm no writer of any sorts, but from a player perspective, that left a lot to be desired.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2018

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    1. Again, at no point was it hinted the Avatar was a Dragon Champion, especially when not even she says anything about it once you figure out the truth and not even she knows what the Dream is.
    3. The Shadow of the Dragon from the Sylvari starting mission is revealed to be Mordremoth's Dragon Champion and at no point has a Champion been humanoid, they're always draconic.

    This is so wrong it's hilarious. Did you even play through the personal story? Do you not remember the explicitly stated dragon champions called Eyes of Zhaitan and Mouths of Zhaitan? If you're going to make a repeated argument, you could at least spend 1 minute to fact check yourself.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_champion

    I just counted 54 dragon champions that are neither dragon nor wyvern. Of these, you got the three Mordrem Guard Commanders, Hareth, Diarmid, and Adryn, the Eyes and Mouths of Zhaitans, Herbozah the Wicked, and the Branded Devourer Queen, all of which are explicitly stated to be dragon champions. One doesn't have to be draconic to be a dragon champion.

    A dragon champion appears to be defined by three primary aspects: 1) creates minions at a far faster rate, 2) intelligent and/or powerful, 3) leads an army of minions into battle (and subsequently, if killed in battle, the minions tend to scatter like seen with Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows novel, or every dragon champion killed in Edge of Destiny, none of which were draconic in appearance).

    And when, exactly, do we ever talk to the Avatar post-S2 finale? Knight of the Thorn achievement line where she's still so weak that she can only give thanks for restoring Caladbolg?

    The Pale Tree doesn't need to say it. It's point blank obvious given the fact that sylvari are dragon minions, and she made them.. It's stated time and time again (just two examples) that only dragon champions can produce minions at a fast rate. Which is exactly what the Pale Tree does.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    2. The book flatout said that Snaff controlled Kralkatorrik for a moment.

    Yes, controlled it by creating muscle spasms. Not by directing its movement. Snaff made its legs and wings crumple, like what happens when one has a muscle spasm. If Snaff had actual control over Kralkatorrik, he would have landed Kralkatorrik right in front of the rest of DE and laid him down with his chest exposed for Rytlock to stab the dragon with the spear. Instead, all he could do is fold the wings and prevent Kralkatorrik from catching his landing with his legs.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    4. If she was able to modify Omadd's machine, it can be assumed that she can eventually learn to replicate it. She's the almighty progeny that makes almighty Zojja look like a kid that doesn't know what 2+2, the girl that figured out the Dragons' weaknesses, how to exploit it AND that she could modify a device she mentions she has no idea how it was made.

    If she had more time to study how it was made, maybe. But that's no longer possible as it is a wreck of non-working metal scraps at the heart of a volcano (which, in all honesty, probably melted the metal scraps within moments of its explosion), and Taimi had - as I stated - said that she didn't know how it worked when she added it to her "Taimi's Machine".

    Taimi may have become a bit of an Ex Machina know-it-all during Season 3, but she's not capable of doing the impossible all the same. The destruction of Taimi's Machine was a pretty blatantly obvious and deliberate way to write Omadd's Machine out of the story for good so that it didn't become another Scepter of Orr or Magdaer.

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    5. It was mentioned that Tyria HAD the Dragons as the way to regulate magic for millenia, not that they could not be replaced. Kormir replaced Abaddon as a God [meaning even these "Gods" can be replaced, by mortals no less] and Glint's plan was to replace Kralkatorrik with Aurene and Vlast, this means they CAN be replaced.
    6. Right now, Kralkatorrik has the power of 4 fellow Elder Dragons, the Bloodstone and Balthazar's godly magic [with Aurene having EVEN MORE by eating Joko and she's not even an adult dragon yet]. If having only 1 of them too powerful would throw everything into chaos, then it would've happened the moment we killed Balthazar, but it didn't. This kinda implies that one Dragon actually could shoulder the burden, at least temporarily [and with Aurene having Joko's magic, we can assume she could also Awaken like he does, which could translate to Aurene reviving and controlling the dead Dragons to keep them in check].
    7. Taimi's "if one more dragon dies" comment was before Balthazar absorbed Primordus and Jormag's magic, this was before we learned of Glint's Legacy and that she wanted to replace Kralk with her children. Again, this implies they CAN be replaced and the fact Glint had children very heavily implies other Champions could have them too.

    Never said they couldn't be replaced. I said that based on Season 3 and Path of Fire, there needs a minimum of four dragons alive at any one point, be they originals or replacements.

    Kralkatorrik doesn't have all of Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's power, and even less of Jormag's and Primordus' since those two never lost all their power and what was stolen got split between Kralk and Aurene. Balthazar had no godly magic, that was stripped from him pre-imprisonment - his power was all from that Bloodstone and Primordus and Jormag. Kralkatorrik is stronger than any one Elder Dragon right now, but only after Balthazar's death.

    Pact Commander: Taimi, focus... When Balthazar died, Kralkatorrik absorbed most of his freed energy.
    Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.
    Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Small_Victory_(Epilogue)#Dialogue

    Kralkatorrik's not at the point where his overpowered nature would throw the world out of further imbalance, but his increased power does bring that imbalance far closer.

    And no, one Elder Dragon cannot "shoulder the burden". THREE cannot:

    Taimi: Have you thought about...you know...?
    Pact Commander: There's really no other way to kill Primordus or Jormag?
    Taimi: They're each other's weakness. Like Mordremoth's was its mind. And without my machine...
    Taimi: I don't think they're going to duke it out physically. Feels like that would be a disaster anyway.
    Pact Commander: I can't believe we're seriously considering saving them.
    Taimi: I know, but magic is so out of whack. If one more goes, all of Tyria might just collapse in on itself.
    Pact Commander: If...IF we keep them alive, how do we keep them from killing us all anyway?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_(story)#My_story

    Balthazar absorbing Primordus and Jormag's magic doesn't matter for kitten, because in the end, Primordus and Jormag are still alive, they're still part of The All, so they're still helping to maintain balance. We're still at four living Elder Dragons tied to The All.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Except that it's been explicitly stated that there must be at least four Elder Dragons, at relatively equal power, for The All to be balanced.

    It's been vaguely hinted that Vlast's "weapon", whatever it is, might be able to change the fundamental rules of reality. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the spear, nor Aurene, so we don't really know what it was. Maybe a repaired Staff of the Mists, maybe something else.

<13
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