This tripple cooldown layer design for the soulbeast can be improved

I can't insists enough in this detail, soulbeast could resolve many issues with the spec if we were to have pet swap while staying in beastmode.Soulbeast need to have access to the new skills with just two different cooldowns for the skills (which are already hefty enough)

This design is terrible mechanic because makes the soulbeast to have three different cooldowns: beastmode, pet swap, skill . I can't think of any other mechanic in game which has tripple cooldown in place. It makes virtually impossible to react to any situation in this type of game.

Same as Irenio's words: "shotgun design in a ranged weapon is bad" yet still exists the, having this kind of complexity with tripple cooldown layer in a mechanic is not good, is not challenging, is not interesting, it's just obnoxious which feels like a chore. That's way soulbeast split as little as possible. And the spec will be always underpeforming .

NO MORE TRIPLE COOLDOWN LAYERS ANYMORE PLEASE. Double cooldown layers is already complex enough.

I think the same but seems that Anet Development Team think different.You could add one more layer, if pet die, 60sec cd.SB have to deal with too much cd with pets.

@urdriel.8496 said:I think the same but seems that Anet Development Team think different.You could add one more layer, if pet die, 60sec cd.SB have to deal with too much cd with pets.

even if it doesn't you still have the normal cd from the pet swap. We don't see it often because we stay in beastmode longer than 20 secs, but it is there if you are in combat.

I think they could make it rewarding with the GMs.One that refreshes beastmode after petswap (eternal bond rework) .One that gives you the "beastmode bonusses" for a short duration after unmerging (so you count as in beastmode for 10s, just without beastskills) this also accounts for traits, shouts and other effects that normally would affect only the pet.And the last is the stance share trait. That could be inproved via intertrait synergy if for example entering beastmode would activate lesser vulture stance on another trait and so on.

They need to encourage swapping and make it more fluid. But mode bunkering wouldnt be that great for PvE, it would make the pet redundant.

Pretty sure the main reason you can pet swap in SB mode is because Anet doesn’t want people staying in Soulbeast mode 100% of the time, which I agree with, but I feel like they could do it in a much more natural way by making it so entering/exiting Soulbeast counted as a pet swap, or they made twice as vicious into a trait that encourages merging and unmerging rather than making the only insentive is so you can hit 3 buttons to use your other pets skills.

@Durzlla.6295 said:Pretty sure the main reason you can pet swap in SB mode is because Anet doesn’t want people staying in Soulbeast mode 100% of the time, which I agree with, but I feel like they could do it in a much more natural way by making it so entering/exiting Soulbeast counted as a pet swap, or they made twice as vicious into a trait that encourages merging and unmerging rather than making the only insentive is so you can hit 3 buttons to use your other pets skills.

if we have bonus stats and more skills in SB, why would anyone deactivate it?? I usually use SmokeScale, when he use KnockDown and Smoke assault i meld with him, i save shadow field f2, and you earn SB bonuses, ¿why should i unmeld if we dont have traits that have synergy with meld/unmeld mechanic?

you have 2 pets but in the end you use 90% time only one.

@Durzlla.6295 said:Pretty sure the main reason you can pet swap in SB mode is because Anet doesn’t want people staying in Soulbeast mode 100% of the time, which I agree with, but I feel like they could do it in a much more natural way by making it so entering/exiting Soulbeast counted as a pet swap, or they made twice as vicious into a trait that encourages merging and unmerging rather than making the only insentive is so you can hit 3 buttons to use your other pets skills.

i get that and actually i like the idea of entering and exit the beastmode. However how it's designed now it punishes the player for not using the mechanic instead reward the player for using it (there is an slight but of most importance difference ).

There are some few pets which are designed in a better way than others: brown bear, fern hound and smokescale. Those pets promote el exiting from beastmode in a positive manner, you do it to get advantage of the unique effect. And i want to remark those three pets (minor clunkiness apart like the CDs or the effects being to weak) In those 3 examples the beastmode pet skills are as important as the f2.

Yes it would require some rework of the core pets F2(most are just a few extra dps) still i think that's the best way to remove the three different cooldowns. And the player would feel rewarded when he exits the beatsmode and not to feel as a forced chore just to access to the secondary set of skills.

firebrands, revenants and elementalist have a similar mechanic still they only have two different layers of cooldowns. The soulbeasts aditional layer does nothing except upset the player.

For a game that need so much fast reactions, Soulbeast merge and swap are really clunky. No other professions in the game feels so gated behind cooldown mechanics.

@Durzlla.6295 said:Pretty sure the main reason you can pet swap in SB mode is because Anet doesn’t want people staying in Soulbeast mode 100% of the time, which I agree with, [...]

Yes, agree too.

Yet, last balance patch, they buffed or QoL'd Pack Alpha and Pet's Prowess (which is good, tbh) without giving an unmerging buff, you have even less reasons to unmerge. 30% movement speed, 300 ferocity and +150 attribute are serious gains. Pets are just glorified mobile CC at this point. You unmerge, they do their support, cc or burst skill and you re-merge.

Yeah. Having all your on swap traits stop functioning is a real PITA.

It'd also be nice for fight or flight times...umerging to get bird to wait 8s...oh I'm dead now. Awesome.

@Krispera.5087 said:For a game that need so much fast reactions, Soulbeast merge and swap are really clunky. No other professions in the game feels so gated behind cooldown mechanics.

@Durzlla.6295 said:Pretty sure the main reason you can pet swap in SB mode is because Anet doesn’t want people staying in Soulbeast mode 100% of the time, which I agree with, [...]

Rev, Ele, War, and Necro would like to have a word with you. Guardian would had been here too, except its having too much fun with Firebrand Tomes.

If they would make all pets like smokescale, so they have a real useful utility F2 like an evade on F2 instant or the porcines give stolen skills directly like stealing does (instantanious ofc) and so on and so forth you wouöd still have an insentive to unmerge and remerge again.A bonus for unmerging would be neat too but maibly staying in beadtmode is awesome because you get more dmg, more control and you can hit stuff reliably. So if we cant have pets for dmg give us some utility Anet.

So here's a question: what is the function of the cooldown on Beastmode to begin with?

The Beastmode skills all have cooldowns, and the overlapping skills even share a global cooldown, so that's not the reason.

Personally, the only reason I can come with is that they gated the entire mechanic so that they wouldn't have to put ICDs on Unstoppable Union and Fresh Reinforcements, which I think is a ridiculously clunky design. The mechanic should be fluid smooth to use and then the traits built to complement the feel, not limit fluidity of the spec to suit the trait design, or even worse, having gates on both the mechanic and traits (AND a resource mechanic on top of it, RIP Druid).

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:For a game that need so much fast reactions, Soulbeast merge and swap are really clunky. _No other professions in the game feels so gated behind cooldown mechanics.Rev, Ele, War, and Necro would like to have a word with you. Guardian would had been here too, except its having too much fun with Firebrand Tomes.

Not the same. Firebrand, Rev, Ele, War and Necro profession mechanics swap are very straight forward and not punishing.

For Soulbeast, you have pet swap cooldown and unmerging cooldown. The only close to have such cooldowns is actually Tempest, where it has attunement swap cooldown, the need to wait 6 secs to Overload and a longer cooldown after Overload. The Soulbeast needs to be a psychic and think about what will/could happen if it unmerges and swap.

Example, if you're in your Offensive pet, but you need to get on your Support pet, you will get slapped an Unmerge cooldown -> Pet Swap to Support + Pet Swap cooldown -> Wait for Beastmode cooldown. You will not be able to use your Support BeastMode skills right away.

In the case of an Ele, it goes from Offensive (Fire or Air) to Support (Water or Earth) easily with no cooldown gating it. Hence why the only close to Soulbeast time gated mechanic is Tempest if it wants to use Overload, because it needs to wait 6 secs after going on the attunement of its choice, which is comparable to Beastmode cooldown.

• Rev and Ele are simple swap. If we had Pet Swap in BeastMode, then it would be the direct comparison. Only one cooldown exist, the swap.
• War, Necro and Druids are generation based mode and are also very straight forward. You need the resource -> you use it -> you get a cooldown. No swapping, only time gated by resource generation and mode ending cooldown. In the case of the Warrior, it gets Adrenaline super easily. For the Necro, it doesn't need to wait to get full generation. Only Druid gets the hard generation and needs to be full to be able to use CA. Druid also has a longer off cooldown. Still, overall, same mechanics.
• Firebrand is only cooldown gated. It can swap freely from Tome 1 to Tome 2 or Tome 3 without waiting, minus normal cooldown.
• Holosmith needs no generation, has a simple swap cooldown and can be punished if not well managed.

Simply, imagine that whenever a class want to swap, it needs to wait 10 secs. Ele wants to go from Fire to Water ? Wait 10 secs please. Rev wants to swap from Shiro to Glint ? Wait 10 secs please. Why is it okay for Soulbeast, but not other professions ?

This is why lots of people are asking for no cooldown on BeastMode or Pet Swap in BeastMode. Only one cooldown would exist, the Pet Swap. If the Weaver can freely swap between attunements, I don't know why BeastMode got slapped with an unmerge cooldown.

@"jcbroe.4329" said:So here's a question: what is the function of the cooldown on Beastmode to begin with?

The Beastmode skills all have cooldowns, and the overlapping skills even share a global cooldown, so that's not the reason.

Personally, the only reason I can come with is that they gated the entire mechanic so that they wouldn't have to put ICDs on Unstoppable Union and Fresh Reinforcements, which I think is a ridiculously clunky design. The mechanic should be fluid smooth to use and then the traits built to complement the feel, not limit fluidity of the spec to suit the trait design, or even worse, having gates on both the mechanic and traits (AND a resource mechanic on top of it, RIP Druid).

The cool down on merge is there to prevent Pet F2 skills from becoming "free skills". I know for a fact I would totally abuse chaining Rock Gazelle with Smoke Scale.... Start merged, Charge, Immob or Stun, unmerge, Head Toss (F2), Swap to smoke scale, F2 for smoke field, merge and Immediately use Take down (F1), then Worldly Impact for big damage and instant Stealth. Thats a terrifying combo if you can't dodge out before the Head Toss lands. And this isn't the only combo where this is possible.

Not to mention the potential to drop a pet out to fire an F2 skill then remerge immediately after.

@Krispera.5087 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Krispera.5087 said:For a game that need so much fast reactions, Soulbeast merge and swap are really clunky. _No other professions in the game feels so gated behind cooldown mechanics.Rev, Ele, War, and Necro would like to have a word with you. Guardian would had been here too, except its having too much fun with Firebrand Tomes.

But they're still hampered by cool downs. So you're telling me Rev isn't getting screwed by the cool downs on Legend swap given how much contention is created by Energy? Core Guardian Virtues are incredibly screwed by the cool down, because they don't have enough impact without an entire trait line to do other things that offer real utility (like stun breaks). Ele needs to navigate a complex rotation, where breaking a rotation to reach a defensive skill can be blocked based on the Attunement CDs; not to mention swapping into an Attunement before the Skills themselves are off cool down locks you in a disadvantage for 5 seconds or more. Warrior has half of its most important traits playing off of firing off Burst skills.... with ability to generate full adrenaline almost twice as fast as the skill cools down definitely limits both sustain and damage of the class as a whole. The same can be said about Necro's life force generation and Shroud, and especially for Reaper and Scourge whose mechanics play heavily on the Shroud.

~~> For Soulbeast, you have pet swap cooldown and unmerging cooldown. The only close to have such cooldowns is actually Tempest, where it has attunement swap cooldown, the need to wait 6 secs to Overload and a longer cooldown after Overload. The Soulbeast needs to be a psychic and think about what will/could happen if it unmerges and swap.

Example, if you're in your Offensive pet, but you need to get on your Support pet, you will get slapped an Unmerge cooldown -> Pet Swap to Support + Pet Swap cooldown -> Wait for Beastmode cooldown. You will not be able to use your Support BeastMode skills right away.

In the case of an Ele, it goes from Offensive (Fire or Air) to Support (Water or Earth) easily with no cooldown gating it. Hence why the only close to Soulbeast time gated mechanic is Tempest if it wants to use Overload, because it needs to wait 6 secs after going on the attunement of its choice, which is comparable to Beastmode cooldown.

• Rev and Ele are simple swap. If we had Pet Swap in BeastMode, then it would be the direct comparison. Only one cooldown exist, the swap. ~~

I'm glossing over this because it be summed entirely as resulting in a longer total cool down, which creates the same effect in both situations. Ultimately your complaining that 2 pets can't be made into some rapid rotation you can burst out on demand. Its the same reason Photon Force blocks kits.... so you can't just dump PF5 and go into another kit rotation. Granted that wouldn't be very effective given the ramp up time of bomb kit. But I'm sure would had figured something crazy out if it exists.

• War, Necro and Druids are generation based mode and are also very straight forward. You need the resource -> you use it -> you get a cooldown. No swapping, only time gated by resource generation and mode ending cooldown. In the case of the Warrior, it gets Adrenaline super easily. For the Necro, it doesn't need to wait to get full generation. Only Druid gets the hard generation and needs to be full to be able to use CA. Druid also has a longer off cooldown. Still, overall, same mechanics.

Which raises the question as to why Druid has a Cool down if they're resource based, AND have much stricter requirements to activate? But now you're starting to get off track. You implied no other class has core mechanics "gated" behind a Cool down, when I've given you multiple examples of things that are gated by Cool Down AND Resources.

Thief has JUST a resource to deal with, and flows well because of it. But Soul Beast doesn't have a resource cost, and can chain a LOT more hard hitting skills with how those skills are distributed.

I'm not arguing it couldn't be made better..... but I am pointing out this isn't the only class that deals with this. And those other classes still manage perfectly fine with them. Except Rev..... Rev got nailed hard with that design.

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"jcbroe.4329" said:So here's a question: what is the function of the cooldown on Beastmode to begin with?

The Beastmode skills all have cooldowns, and the overlapping skills even share a global cooldown, so that's not the reason.

Personally, the only reason I can come with is that they gated the entire mechanic so that they wouldn't have to put ICDs on Unstoppable Union and Fresh Reinforcements, which I think is a ridiculously clunky design. The mechanic should be fluid smooth to use and then the traits built to complement the feel, not limit fluidity of the spec to suit the trait design, or even worse, having gates on both the mechanic and traits (AND a resource mechanic on top of it, RIP Druid).

Nothing you just mentioned is any "scarier" than what any other class can do, and you just frontloaded all of you cooldowns into a situation where a single dodge would leave most of the toolkit on cooldown.

Mirage - Torch 4, swap to GS, GS2, Blink/Jaunt, Blink/Jaunt for clone, Mantra of Distraction, Shatter, GS3, GS4, Stealth and Blink/Jaunt away, furthered by Sword leap.

Spellbreaker - Dagger F1, Dagger 3, swap to GS, 100b, GS F1, GS3, GS5, already big damage and can now swap back to Dagger to continue damage/pressure.

Holosmith - Rifle 4, Rifle 5, Holo 3, Holo 5, Holo 2, Holo auto, spamming static Discharge skills the whole time if Static Protection build, otherwise can continue the CC chain with Thumper Turret for more damage/combo potential.

Herald - can literally roll their face across the keyboard and as long as they hit their sword offhand skills 100-0 you.

Guardian - Hammer or GS can basically 100-0 you and can be precast into a teleport to make the damage nearly instant.

Reaper - Can basically just Axe 2 you into a passive proc and if that doesn't 100-0 you, can finish you off with Reaper.

Weaver - I didn't even learn the rotation but FA Weaver can still 100-0.

Thief - Quite a few variations of their builds have 1 shot and/or large damage potential.

Point being, yeah, every class can do wacky, ridiculous skill combinations, especially if they dedicate cooldowns to it. If you're going to use the potential numbers argument, yeah, those can be adjusted, and are probably going to be nerfed next patch anyhow.

More fluid gameplay and skill combinations would increase the complexity of the class, increasing the potential skill ceiling without increasing the skill floor, and would create more entertaining gameplay.

@urdriel.8496 said:

@Durzlla.6295 said:Pretty sure the main reason you can pet swap in SB mode is because Anet doesn’t want people staying in Soulbeast mode 100% of the time, which I agree with, but I feel like they could do it in a much more natural way by making it so entering/exiting Soulbeast counted as a pet swap, or they made twice as vicious into a trait that encourages merging and unmerging rather than making the only insentive is so you can hit 3 buttons to use your other pets skills.

As i stated, the way they have it set up at the moment, i agree with you there is absolutely no GOOD reason, as to why you should unmerge, which is why i said they should rework some stuff to actually incentivize the merging unmerging

@starlinvf.1358 said:Core Guardian Virtues are incredibly screwed by the cool down, because they don't have enough impact without an entire trait line to do other things that offer real utility (like stun breaks).

Virtues has nothing to do with the subject. It's like bringing Shatters in the conversation. They are completely different mechanics with different purposes.

@starlinvf.1358 said:But they're still hampered by cool downs. So you're telling me Rev isn't getting screwed by the cool downs on Legend swap given how much contention is created by Energy? Core Guardian Virtues are incredibly screwed by the cool down, because they don't have enough impact without an entire trait line to do other things that offer real utility (like stun breaks). Ele needs to navigate a complex rotation, where breaking a rotation to reach a defensive skill can be blocked based on the Attunement CDs; not to mention swapping into an Attunement before the Skills themselves are off cool down locks you in a disadvantage for 5 seconds or more.

Ranger/Soulbeast already has Pet Swap as a cooldown. Then over it, you have Beastmode cooldown. That's what we are talking about. Soulbeast time gated cooldown IS unique.

@starlinvf.1358 said:You implied no other class has core mechanics "gated" behind a Cool down, when I've given you multiple examples of things that are gated by Cool Down AND Resources.

Yes of course everyone have cooldown to manage, that's not about it. It's about the special time gate over time gate of the Soulbeast. Only Tempest Attunement + Overload mechanic is close to it.

@starlinvf.1358 said:you're telling me Rev isn't getting screwed by the cool downs on Legend swap given how much contention is created by Energy?Thief has JUST a resource to deal with, and flows well because of it. But Soul Beast doesn't have a resource cost, and can chain a LOT more hard hitting skills with how those skills are distributed.

We aren't talking about Initiative and Energy, they are completely different mechanic and they are very hard to compare with other classes. Rev and Thief gains are shorter cooldown on all their skills and Ranger is pure cooldown. So, you aren't going to take in consideration their short cooldowns ? Again, it's not the subject of the thread.

Here a quick comparison of Unrelenting Assault and Smoke Assault (BMode). Unrelenting Assault 12 secs cooldown, 15 energy (5 energy = 1sec), so let's add 3 secs = 15 secs of real cooldown. Smoke Assault (BMode) = 20 secs cooldown. Without taking in consideration anything else, UA has shorter cooldown, period.

All classes can do hard hitting skills. Ever saw how fluid is a FA ele ? How it is easy to chain with Rev when they swap and use their new stance utilities right away ? With Soulbeast/Beastmode, you can't do that.

When a Rev or Ele swaps, they don't have to wait 10 secs. It swaps ON DEMAND. If the Soulbeast starts with Beastmode, he has to get off from Beastmode (10 secs) -> Swap Pet (20 secs) -> Wait what is left fromt Beastmode -> Merge Beastmode . A Rev just press F1 and it's in the new Stance, then it gets a cooldown.

What do an Ele or Rev do when they need to get on their supporting attunement/stance as an emergency ? They just do. Soulbeast ? You can't react to it, you to plan 10 secs in advance.

@"anduriell.6280" said:I can't insists enough in this detail, soulbeast could resolve many issues with the spec if we were to have pet swap while staying in beastmode.Soulbeast need to have access to the new skills with just two different cooldowns for the skills (which are already hefty enough)

This design is terrible mechanic because makes the soulbeast to have three different cooldowns: beastmode, pet swap, skill . I can't think of any other mechanic in game which has tripple cooldown in place. It makes virtually impossible to react to any situation in this type of game.

Same as Irenio's words: "shotgun design in a ranged weapon is bad" yet still exists the, having this kind of complexity with tripple cooldown layer in a mechanic is not good, is not challenging, is not interesting, it's just obnoxious which feels like a chore. That's way soulbeast split as little as possible. And the spec will be always underpeforming .

NO MORE TRIPLE COOLDOWN LAYERS ANYMORE PLEASE. Double cooldown layers is already complex enough.

I've always wanted them to make it so we could pet swap while in beastmode. Most of the time when you need a skill it's to late, such as survival skills and healing skills or daze we can never use them in clutch moments always after the fact.

I think this can not be insisted enough:Soulbeast three layer cooldowns is unique to the class and it is punishing players, a very bad gate mechanic which in my opinion must be removed

For the other mains in this thread think about this: Whenever you want to use any Fx skill you have to wait first 10 seconds. If you can visualize that you'll realize this can be and must be improved. It only happens to the soulbeast and is unnecesary as all skills in beastmode have already hefty cooldowns for the damage / utility they bring.

Basically until that's addressed Soulbeast will be underperforming and buffing the damage is not the answer to that.

@anduriell.6280 said:I can't insists enough in this detail, soulbeast could resolve many issues with the spec if we were to have pet swap while staying in beastmode.

This is all I want for Soulbeast, so then I can choose traits that work with pet swap, I currently hate the synergy of traits.

I suspect if they did the change proposed by the OP, then your pets 'Beast abilties' would share a cooldown. I believe they designed it this way to avoid giving SB rangers access to 2 sets of pet abilities while in beastmode.

For example, merged with Smokescale I engage in melee, hit F1, then maybe F2, but then being able to immediately swap to Brown Bear and have access to defy pain and AoE heal would be a tad OP, no?

EDIT: I should add, I hate the issue with cooldowns. I find that Ranger requires me to hit more buttons to prepare to attack than any other profession I play, and in the heat of WvW combat, I often press the wrong button. But still, I understand why they can't just change it to what the OP is proposing.

EDIT #2: I missed the post above that covered the argument that I gave, and I do agree that many other classes can swap their Fx abilities far easier than Ranger, and with devastating results. I'm still convinced though that the reasoning I gave is why ANET won't even consider it.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I suspect if they did the change proposed by the OP, then your pets 'Beast abilties' would share a cooldown. I believe they designed it this way to avoid giving SB rangers access to 2 sets of pet abilities while in beastmode.

For example, merged with Smokescale I engage in melee, hit F1, then maybe F2, but then being able to immediately swap to Brown Bear and have access to defy pain and AoE heal would be a tad OP, no?

Whould it be now? Let's check the math:You engage with smoke in melee and cast an skill with 40 seconds cooldown which will only give you 3 seconds of no power damage, and after that... Will you cast the heal which is 40 seconds cooldown, has a cast time of 1 second and half and will only heal you for 4k? Why in the heavens would you first engage?

Let's put it in a actual scenario and then you'll see how that is that stronk

You are fighting a group and you are on bear. Because you are low on health but pewpewing you cast spiritual retrieval then you cast Defy pain and swap to the rock deer and cast charge to get into melee so you don't die before reaching your target (smoke assault is already an evade which obviously you didn't know..) .

This doesn't sound OP to me. OP to me is 15-20K each meteor hit, or 12K + 8K in two deadeye attacks in less than a second from stealth to a 2.8k armor. That sounds broken to me. Mesmer is a meme at this state i can't take seriously any player which plays with that professionally in pvp.

Please people stop shooting your own foot. This class is a complete mess, the mains do what they can to make it work. But that doesn't mean is fine, not when the skill required to achieve the same results is so absurdly absurd. I'd like to see the deadeye to have to execute flawlessly 5 skills to make Dead judgement to work like it does now.

It is obvious Anet need the help to figure out what to do with this class in general, they should read the forums and take some ideas from it. But they only listen Raid winning about the why power ranger doesn't have an space in raids.. apparently.

Just think if this class would stop having the clunky mechanics would be actually fun to play with it. Everybody wins!

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I suspect if they did the change proposed by the OP, then your pets 'Beast abilties' would share a cooldown. I believe they designed it this way to avoid giving SB rangers access to 2 sets of pet abilities while in beastmode.

For example, merged with Smokescale I engage in melee, hit F1, then maybe F2, but then being able to immediately swap to Brown Bear and have access to defy pain and AoE heal would be a tad OP, no?

Whould it be now? Let's check the math:You engage with smoke in melee and cast an skill with 40 seconds cooldown which will only give you 3 seconds of no power damage, and after that... Will you cast the heal which is 40 seconds cooldown, has a cast time of 1 second and half and will only heal you for 4k? Why in the heavens would you first engage?