Return of the Gods? (PoF spoilers)

Contrary to what we are led to believe during the story, I don't think we are completely done with the gods. The reason for this is that little bit of dialogue during the Beast of War instance where Taimi tries to tell us something but we can't hear what she is saying due to the static (just quoting the important lines):

in the dragonlab...still doing...research on the...in Kesho...Sadizi said...Balance...Elder Dragons...

Commander!...The Exalted... the gods...

In the Kesho instance we get a cutscene where Sadizi explains what Glint, the Forgotten and the Exalted we're trying/hoping to do with Aurene and Vlast. With regards to the places Zhaitan and Mordremoth left in the cycle he says the following:

We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.

So in short, the magic of Tyria in being kept in balance by six beings. It used to be six Elder Dragons, but after we killed two of them the Exalted were hoping to fill their places with Aurene and Vlast. Unfortunately, Vlast was also killed. So in the circle we now have four out of six places filled with Elder Dragons, Aurene who is supposed to take the fifth place (according to the Exalted) and an unassigned sixth place. Which leaves us with five out of six spots where we would like to see something different, something sharing instead of hoarding. With Balthazar gone, we also have five gods left who are supposed to care a lot about Tyria, enough to leave all they built there behind. Coincidence? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

It's a theory just based on those few lines, but I guess that Taimi was trying to tell us that she thinks the gods and Aurene could replace all the remaining Elder Dragons and fill the vacant spots. Unfortunately neither Taimi nor the Commander seems to mention that little piece of dialogue again so this is all we are getting for now, but given the issue at hand (saving Tyria from both the Elder Dragons and the unbound magic) it seems like a decent fit.

I was really upset it wasn't mentioned in the end... But the gods seem know everything so if they leave they leave for ever. Sad true, but true.

Interesting concept.

I'm also not certain that we've seen the last of the gods. Aside from the matter of Dhuum and Menzies being left unanswered still, and the question of what happened to Balthazar's original divine magic and who or what now houses such power, PoF promotions were with more than a handful of comments of Anet going "we always knew we'd have to turn back to the gods". They wouldn't be making such claims if this was the full extent of such a return, imho.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Interesting concept.

I'm also not certain that we've seen the last of the gods. Aside from the matter of Dhuum and Menzies being left unanswered still, and the question of what happened to Balthazar's original divine magic and who or what now houses such power, PoF promotions were with more than a handful of comments of Anet going "we always knew we'd have to turn back to the gods". They wouldn't be making such claims if this was the full extent of such a return, imho.

appearances and heavy story for every god in the coming season and beyond I bet

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Interesting concept.

I'm also not certain that we've seen the last of the gods. Aside from the matter of Dhuum and Menzies being left unanswered still, and the question of what happened to Balthazar's original divine magic and who or what now houses such power, PoF promotions were with more than a handful of comments of Anet going "we always knew we'd have to turn back to the gods". They wouldn't be making such claims if this was the full extent of such a return, imho.

Well, we established the realm of the dead again and the master is out.I don't think Dhuum will let this opportunity unused for a long time, so maybe we get it as a raidwing like the underworld?

Very interesting. There's also the bit in the final battle where Balthazar curses Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru and Kormir. He fails to curse Lyssa and whoever took his place. I have only played that instance once, so not sure if the amount of cursing can change, but he did it twice, and he didn't curse Lyssa at all. Nor his replacement.

Also it's still unknown who took his powers before his imprisonment. He was really weak so he had to consume much amount of magic... Who the hell took it!?

@Arden.7480 said:Also it's still unknown who took his powers before his imprisonment. He was really weak so he had to consume much amount of magic... Who the kitten took it!?

The other gods did, now that doesn't mean they absorbed it of course. There is no reason to think that there needs to be a replacement. It is a departure from what we thought Abaddon and Kormir established, that someone needs to contain the power of a dying god. But the 5 didn't kill Balthazar, they somehow weakened him. Too many unknowns.

@Ashur.7648 said:

@Arden.7480 said:Also it's still unknown who took his powers before his imprisonment. He was really weak so he had to consume much amount of magic... Who the kitten took it!?

There are other example's, Balthazar replaced his father (He entered tyria carrying his fathers head), Grenth defeated and replaced Dhuum. There are no examples of a Human God being killed without someone as a replacement.

@Kenagin.3529 said:

@Ashur.7648 said:

@Arden.7480 said:Also it's still unknown who took his powers before his imprisonment. He was really weak so he had to consume much amount of magic... Who the kitten took it!?

Maybe they have it contained until a replacement present itself, though after so long they probably found someone

@Ashur.7648 said:

@Arden.7480 said:Also it's still unknown who took his powers before his imprisonment. He was really weak so he had to consume much amount of magic... Who the kitten took it!?

Grenth did the same to Dhuum. It's not really a departure of establishment, given that Grenth usurping-without-killing was established before Abaddon.

@Kenagin.3529 said:There are other example's, Balthazar replaced his father (He entered tyria carrying his fathers head), Grenth defeated and replaced Dhuum. There are no examples of a Human God being killed without someone as a replacement.

Uh, nothing says the god Balthazar replaced was his father. He was carrying his father's head as he entered Tyria, yes, but there's no context to that or to who the father was.

also note that dhuum can't be killed apparently, at least not by grenth even after absorbing his power or by mortals. So how come we can kill balthy after his power is stripped? makes no sense unless dhuum has some special quality where he is more of a force than a living being.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Ashur.7648 said:

@Arden.7480 said:Also it's still unknown who took his powers before his imprisonment. He was really weak so he had to consume much amount of magic... Who the kitten took it!?

@Kenagin.3529 said:There are other example's, Balthazar replaced his father (He entered tyria carrying his fathers head), Grenth defeated and replaced Dhuum. There are no examples of a Human God being killed without someone as a replacement.

You're right, I was to quick establishing it as a fact. It is just my interpretation of it.

But I'm still sure there has to be someone who replaced Balthazar. There are only examples of Human Gods being usurped with or without killing. And I don't expect Anet to make either Aurene or Kralkatorrik the next God of War.

@ScottBroChill.3254 said:also note that dhuum can't be killed apparently, at least not by grenth even after absorbing his power or by mortals. So how come we can kill balthy after his power is stripped? makes no sense unless dhuum has some special quality where he is more of a force than a living being.

Given that Dhuum is literally the upper half of a skeleton when we meet him, he may be a lich. And liches have been proven to be nigh unkillable. The only lich we can confidently say we killed (Khilbron) was by literally tearing his soul out of the body and stuffing it in a device, which then transferred it into another dimension. Unlike other fantasy worlds, liches in Tyria do not have some sort of phalyctery that binds his soul to the mortal realm. They're just powerful undead capable of withstanding any form of physical punishment.

It's also possible that, unlike Balthazar, Dhuum was not fully stripped of powers given that Grenth was a demigod. If there is some sort of limit to how much power a god can house within its vessel - unlike, it appears, the Elder Dragons - then that could be the answer for why Dhuum lived.

It's also possible that it's because Dhuum was the god of death, that he had managed to retain domain over death even with his defeat and loss of power.

And for us not being able to kill him in GW1, that could just be because we had no vessel to house any leftover power (such as the power Dhuum got from nearby deaths).

I hope we haven't seen the last of the gods, and I am not sure we have. I feel like there is something more to be said for Lyssa at least. How did Balthazar get his hands on Lyssa's mirror after he escaped imprisonment? I can't help but wonder if she secretly aided him. In facing the truth, Kormir says "The rest of the six - Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa, reached an agreement". The way she mentioned Lyssa sounded like Lyssa was the most reluctant. Finally, at the end when fighting Balthazar, he curses all of the gods by name EXCEPT for Lyssa just before he died. Here's hoping for Lyssa!

@Ashur.7648 said:

@Arden.7480 said:Also it's still unknown who took his powers before his imprisonment. He was really weak so he had to consume much amount of magic... Who the kitten took it!?

I still don't think there is a replacement god, simply because it wasn't mentioned at all. A new god, even one immediately departing is a big thing. The real problem here is what determines when a being is considered a god or just powerful, we don't have any real measuring system.How powerful was Balthazar immediately after being freed ?And compared to who or what ?What exactly can a god do ?And are their domains limiting factors or rather flavor or part of duty setup ?Is it necessary from a cosmological standpoint to have certain spots filled ?If not, why create another loose cannon when you can do fine with the people you already know ? And what the heck are gods doing all the time, being shiny and aloof seems rather boring after a while, no ?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is hoping we haven't seen the last of the gods! I'm very attached to them and their stories, I want to see more of them and have them return to Tyria in the future, so although I don't have much to add to the discussion I still wanted to add my voice. Fingers crossed!

Or...It's high time we get the new Five.

Aurene will fill one of the spots, while five individuals, enhanced by magitech, will fill the other five spots, ascending into godhood and replacing BOTH the Elder Dragons and the human gods.

The catch is that the new Five would not have to be human-related, they could be from all of the five races.

This might mean that, over time:...a human could replace BOTH an Elder Dragon and Lyssa as the new goddess of illusion and beauty....an asura could replace BOTH an Elder Dragon and Kormir as the new goddess of knowledge and secrets....a sylvari, given it turns out they do have souls, could replace BOTH an Elder Dragon and Dwayna as the new goddess of life and renewal.......all backed up and balanced-out by a true new Elder Dragon, Aurene.

Better yet, the new Five do not have to align across the same 'domains', so nothing says there needs to be a new god of war, or a new god of life; some functions could be split in a different way.

@Inc.4753 said:It's a theory just based on those few lines, but I guess that Taimi was trying to tell us that she thinks the gods and Aurene could replace all the remaining Elder Dragons and fill the vacant spots. Unfortunately neither Taimi nor the Commander seems to mention that little piece of dialogue again so this is all we are getting for now, but given the issue at hand (saving Tyria from both the Elder Dragons and the unbound magic) it seems like a decent fit.

your theory only creates more plotholes: so Balthazar was right since from begin then: the gods should kill ED and absorb their magic. We should have let him kill and replace primordus lol.

On the same note there is Kormir's journal that states that the gods left because they have better things to do somewhere else, and regardless of what they do Tyria is doomed anyway so they are just getting the f out (loose understanding of that text based on the interaction with Kormir herself before she gives us middle finger and disappears).

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Inc.4753 said:It's a theory just based on those few lines, but I guess that Taimi was trying to tell us that she thinks the gods and Aurene could replace all the remaining Elder Dragons and fill the vacant spots. Unfortunately neither Taimi nor the Commander seems to mention that little piece of dialogue again so this is all we are getting for now, but given the issue at hand (saving Tyria from both the Elder Dragons and the unbound magic) it seems like a decent fit.

Based on Kormir's dialogue, they didn't engage dragons because they couldn't win. On the other hand mortals (we), just took down two of them relatively easily. It's more plausible (to me personally) that gods being pretty much powered up mortals, were afraid to lose their power to the dragons so they ran from that fight; they were afraid IF they lose fight to dragons (most likely outcome according to Kormir), that the dragons absorbing their magic would be catastrophic to the Tyria itself...

And on the same accord, it feels to me they are not facing Balthazaar (and instead running away), not because they can't, but because although they weren't strong enough to take on Elder Dragons, but we (mortals) just took out two of them. They are simply afraid we realize that their omnipotence is only implied and we turn on them next, thus they are actually running away from us.

Humans were brought to Tyria by the six (established lore). There are some speculations I have about that too given recent events. It could be that there was a civil war against them on the original planet/in original dimension/mists, and they took a handful of humans and ran to Tyria in order to try garnish power and worship again. That would simply make them extremely powerful mages on a narcissistic power trip. Given we killed Abaddon, they are obviously mortal. That creates more plot holes too, because who is to say they aren't trying those experiments of worship in other dimensions/on other planets, which would explain their actual absence (but personally I hate thinking down this route). So it is possible we see them again.

Anyway, these are just personal opinions and observations so do take them with a grain of salt. Just something to think about imho.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Inc.4753 said:It's a theory just based on those few lines, but I guess that Taimi was trying to tell us that she thinks the gods and Aurene could replace all the remaining Elder Dragons and fill the vacant spots. Unfortunately neither Taimi nor the Commander seems to mention that little piece of dialogue again so this is all we are getting for now, but given the issue at hand (saving Tyria from both the Elder Dragons and the unbound magic) it seems like a decent fit.

I don't think you got the point I was trying to make. Balthazar was definitely not right. From what Kormir is willing to show us Balthazar wanted it all for himself (perhaps he was more willing to share earlier in their discussion, but this is what we get to see so I'll run with that for now). The idea is to replace the Elder Dragons with beings that share magic.Also, nowhere was stated that the Six should kill the Elder Dragons, just that they can replace them. If the Six participating in the battle really causes too much collateral damage, we might be better off not letting them participate. We managed to kill two Elder Dragons without their help after all, it is just the cleanup that we have no answer for yet.

@Inc.4753 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@Inc.4753 said:It's a theory just based on those few lines, but I guess that Taimi was trying to tell us that she thinks the gods and Aurene could replace all the remaining Elder Dragons and fill the vacant spots. Unfortunately neither Taimi nor the Commander seems to mention that little piece of dialogue again so this is all we are getting for now, but given the issue at hand (saving Tyria from both the Elder Dragons and the unbound magic) it seems like a decent fit.

I find that logic flawed though. Since Balthazaar has been stripped of his power, even with powers he absorbed, he is no longer "god" in the same equivalency as the Five/Six. So according to Kormir, having five super powered beings go against one fairly powerful being is more collateral damage, than sending an army or mortals after him that will be certain to cause lives; although it's kinda cheating given the player character is technically proven "stronger" than the Six by taking out two dragons, which they are afraid of. The Commander had help, true, but going against Mordremorth he essentially beat the crap out of him in his own domain, even if we are gonna try to use excuse of him being distracted at the same time at the Dragon Stand.

The only "redeeming" factor of that odd logic is that we used the awakened. I still think Kormir was just lazy and full of it. Just doesn't add up. As much I enjoyed the pof as a game, the lore feels too butchered and parts of it, like the involvement of Kormir, just feel like lazy writing at times.

I agree though that Balthazaar was just greedy and selfish. Although I am not gonna question those aspects of his personality because it does fit the role of the god of fire and war. I mean, he is acting like an angry child.

Although I admit, it would be interesting seeing "gods" take on the roll of the dragons, with Aurene becoming the "Dragon of fire and war." >:D

There is one thing I am wondering though in regards to "gods" and why they are afraid of dragons. It may be that "gods" have limited capacity for storing magic, and of they were to take out the dragons, they themselves would not be able to contained all that released energy. That would prevent them from ever being able to work as such supplements.

I overthink things when I get invested in something, like GW lore. Sorry ><;

@Vladish.3940 said:There is one thing I am wondering though in regards to "gods" and why they are afraid of dragons. It may be that "gods" have limited capacity for storing magic, and of they were to take out the dragons, they themselves would not be able to contained all that released energy. That would prevent them from ever being able to work as such supplements.

This is what I am thinking is the case. The Six may beat the dragons, but can they replace them? Can they take their magic? I'm not so sure.

If the Six Gods had an effectively limitless capacity for holding magic - like the Elder Dragons seem to have given Kralkatorrik's actions at the end of PoF - then why didn't they just divide Abaddon's magic among each other when he rebelled? Why couldn't Grenth take all of Dhuum's magic and kill him?

It makes the most sense if the gods are incapable of housing unlimited magic, even if the magic they do house is supremely great and unique compared to Tyrians. The Elder Dragons in their normal state may not be greater than a god, but in their empowered state (having taken in the magic of fallen Elder Dragons or the Bloodstones), they would be. The question is if Elder Dragons can absorb a god's magic (given Forgotten magic immunity, Foefire tricks, and Balthazar managing to wade through an army of destroyers and branded without being eaten, I'd say no - the magic Kralkatorrik ate was from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag ultimately, though Balthazar retained some divinity it's hard to say whether that was also absorbed or if it crumbled when Balthazar "broke up" the way Abaddon did).

And speaking of Balthazar's death - that's another major difference between Elder Dragon and God. The gods, when killed, literally break apart, releasing all magic within them at once be it a gods' magic or not, while the Elder Dragons just slump dead like corpses and radiate magic. This indicates that the two are fundamentally of different building blocks and thus would naturally have different limitations and abilities to them.