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Early look at the new meta


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It has been a few days since patch and its time to take a look at what the preliminary data say about the meta. Did the nerf have an impact and if so, which class is the dps king for each of the raid bosses and what is the new meta team composition. Using gw2raidar global stats and leaderboardswith some consideration for the two bugs involving DE and SB, it is clear that weaver is only really still favorable for KC, Sam, and Xera (for mechanics and cleave). For most bosses Weaver is now around bottom half of the DPS class hierarchy, commonly below HS, and even without the two bugs for DE and SB it is clear that for most cases the better performing DPS is going to be something other than weaver.

The next few resets will show how stable this new meta will be and if any new builds pop up to take the crown.

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@nsleep.7839 said:New meta:

2x ChronoDruidBanner Slave whatever-spec-the-fight-demands6x top performing dps, contents may change with encounter.

Jesus, it's almost like the old meta!

Yep, this formula will pretty never change as long as druid and Chrono can bring basically whatever utility an encounter could possibly require with just a small tweak or two to their meta builds.

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Flame Trap has long been fixed and with the state of conditions in PvE, Condition-Soulbeast - along with most condition-builds - has become rather crap (Hell, Power-Soulbeast is far superior now). A few condition-classes are still nice in certain scenarious (Renegade > huge hitbox abuse; Mirage (it's a Mesmer-subclass, what do you expect?)...), but even in raids, we're certainly getting back to the zerker-only-meta, which is quite sad and boring. ArenaNet should rethink what they want conditions to be in instanced PvE. As it is, it doesn't work at the moment.

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@CptAurellian.9537 said:Oh, right, missed the flame trap fix. However, apart from DE over-performing, I see relatively little indication that condi in general is in such a horrible spot.

Well, in raids it's kinda still acceptable, though little things add up. It's already kinda weird that phasing breaks conditions (delayed damage shouldn't be broken anyway) and now you have that weird invulnerability-patch which makes it that conditions won't continue to do damage through shields and all that crap where it previously did. Most condition-builds simply lack burst-damage for cleave on adds etc. and phasing is a huge dps-loss. True, you still have a few encounters where condition-specs shine like Matthias or SH, but the rest? Even at Cairn, you're better of with a Deadeye now, even though Mirage is still pretty strong there. Since Scourge has basically been deleted, a mix of Weavers and Deadeyes is probably the way to go - considering the specific encounter of course. But then there's also fractals and condition-builds are really weak in fractals. Nonetheless, you're almost always better off with some zerker-build now and that's kinda sad.

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@CptAurellian.9537 said:Oh, right, missed the flame trap fix. However, apart from DE over-performing, I see relatively little indication that condi in general is in such a horrible spot.

Agree, there is no reason for renegade, berserker or daredevil raid builds to have lost any condition damage. In fact you could even expect a slight increase in dps for the daredevil. And, I expect elementalists to be able to make competitive condition builds as well (they just need the will to use condition builds).

Eddit: In fact power builds have been hit harder in PvE, which comparatively make condi builds a bit more competitive as a whole.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Oh, right, missed the flame trap fix. However, apart from DE over-performing, I see relatively little indication that condi in general is in such a horrible spot.

Agree, there is no reason for renegade, berserker or daredevil raid builds to have lost any condition damage.It's the "Invulnerability effects will now stop conditions from applying damage." change. That one hits all the condi classes, and hits them hard.

That's on top of nerfs to condi sb and necro, of course.

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Phasing wouldn't hurt condis so much if the phases weren't pushed in like, 20~30 seconds. This is an issue with the low boss HP compared to the dps output that can be achieved by the current balance and how phasing works in general. This doesn't affects bosses that don't invul during phases, such as Matthias or Deimos where the conditions will keep ticking, but every boss that phases while going invul is basically similar to Sloth now, where conditions struggled to be considered meta.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Nah, troll metas were when you could see tempests doing over 60k damage on actual bosses (and i don't mean MO).

Don't know, auto attack Deadeye comes pretty close to that. I mean yes, it's not as insane damage wise but even the most drunk, brain dead, what ever person can keep up an auto attack rotation. The tempest rotation at least required some work. :/

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy people get to use thief again in raids, but this is just silly. Meanwhile Renegade has a 58 step long rotation to pull off similar numbers.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Nah, troll metas were when you could see tempests doing over 60k damage on actual bosses (and i don't mean MO).

Don't know, auto attack Deadeye comes pretty close to that. I mean yes, it's not as insane damage wise but even the most drunk, brain dead, what ever person can keep up an auto attack rotation. The tempest rotation at least required some work. :/Interestingly enough, of the few deadeyes i saw in raids today, one was doing over 30k, but the two others were at ~20.

Now, i'm not going to argue thief isn't easy right now, but it seems to be at least a little bit harder than the much overexagerrated description you brought up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy people get to use thief again in raids, but this is just silly. Meanwhile Renegade has a 58 step long rotation to pull off similar numbers.And necro can probably get to 30k if stars align just right.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Nah, troll metas were when you could see tempests doing over 60k damage on actual bosses (and i don't mean MO).

Don't know, auto attack Deadeye comes pretty close to that. I mean yes, it's not as insane damage wise but even the most drunk, brain dead, what ever person can keep up an auto attack rotation. The tempest rotation at least required some work. :/Interestingly enough, of the few deadeyes i saw in raids today, one was doing over 30k, but the two others were at ~20.

Now, i'm not going to argue thief isn't easy right now, but it seems to be at least a little bit harder than the much overexagerrated description you brought up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy people get to use thief again in raids, but this is just silly. Meanwhile Renegade has a 58 step long rotation to pull off similar numbers.And necro can probably get to 30k if stars align just right.

It is literally auto attack and positioning. If you can't flank your damage goes down.

There is also a rifle rotation which is slightly more complicated as in you have to use skill 3 and 2 utility skills.

Now not having been at an of the fights you described I can't comment on why some people are better at standing next to the boss and others weren't.

I do know that there is a ton of factors which could account for the damage difference outside of the rotation. This rotation even has the old core power mesmer beat, that one required you to at least summon phantasms.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Nah, troll metas were when you could see tempests doing over 60k damage on actual bosses (and i don't mean MO).

Don't know, auto attack Deadeye comes pretty close to that. I mean yes, it's not as insane damage wise but even the most drunk, brain dead, what ever person can keep up an auto attack rotation. The tempest rotation at least required some work. :/Interestingly enough, of the few deadeyes i saw in raids today, one was doing over 30k, but the two others were at ~20.

Now, i'm not going to argue thief isn't easy right now, but it seems to be at least a little bit harder than the much overexagerrated description you brought up.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy people get to use thief again in raids, but this is just silly. Meanwhile Renegade has a 58 step long rotation to pull off similar numbers.And necro can probably get to 30k if stars align just right.

It is literally auto attack and positioning. If you can't flank your damage goes down.

There is also a rifle rotation which is slightly more complicated as in you have to use skill 3 and 2 utility skills.

Now not having been at an of the fights you described I can't comment on why some people are better at standing next to the boss and others weren't.

I do know that there is a ton of factors which could account for the damage difference outside of the rotation. This rotation even has the old core power mesmer beat, that one required you to at least summon phantasms.

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@Raizel.8175 said:Flame Trap has long been fixed and with the state of conditions in PvE, Condition-Soulbeast - along with most condition-builds - has become rather crap (Hell, Power-Soulbeast is far superior now). A few condition-classes are still nice in certain scenarious (Renegade > huge hitbox abuse; Mirage (it's a Mesmer-subclass, what do you expect?)...), but even in raids, we're certainly getting back to the zerker-only-meta, which is quite sad and boring. ArenaNet should rethink what they want conditions to be in instanced PvE. As it is, it doesn't work at the moment.

Yup more than 2 years of condi meta both in pve and pvp is certainly NOT boring and cheesy. Amirite?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Nah, troll metas were when you could see tempests doing over 60k damage on actual bosses (and i don't mean MO).

Don't know, auto attack Deadeye comes pretty close to that. I mean yes, it's not as insane damage wise but even the most drunk, brain dead, what ever person can keep up an auto attack rotation. The tempest rotation at least required some work. :/Interestingly enough, of the few deadeyes i saw in raids today, one was doing over 30k, but the two others were at ~20.

Now, i'm not going to argue thief isn't easy right now, but it seems to be at least a little bit harder than the much overexagerrated description you brought up.

Compare it with eles. For every 30k one you see, there will be 2 at 20k and 3 more at 15.

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