Reduce Silent Scope stealth duration

The new Deadeye patch is epic, I love all of the changes made to it. But.. one thing that bugs me a little is the obscene amount of stealth that Deadeye(especially when traited with shadow arts) now has. The fact that you can now double dodge to instantly get 8 seconds of stealth feels a little crazy, and when two shadow arts Deadeyes go at it you know that it's going to be a long eye twitching fight.

When you compare that to shadow meld, which is a 5 second cooldown (45 sec ammo recharge) for 3 seconds or Dagger/Pistol stealthing (6 ini + 3 per stack) it feels like it is way too easy to access and stay in stealth. It also not very fun to know you're that safe all the time, nor is it fun to deal with other Deadeyes that are perma stealth. Besides if you get revealed all you have to do is shadow meld and roll away.

Reduce the Stealth granted to silent scope to 1 or 2 seconds, since after all the whole point of adding stealth was to make the new Death Judgement more fluid to use, not let thief camp invisibility forever. Stealth from the stolen ability feels fine, since you have to build malice to use it, though getting use to the cast time feels a little clunky.

you know some people don't use SA? 3s is fine.SA has always been an annoying and stupid trait line, it does nothing in pvp but kids abuse it in wvw going 24/7 stealth and one shot people.

No, it's fine.

So... You want to punish everyone instead of fixing the problem. Yeah, no if you have issues with the amount of stealth a DE can get, Nerf the additional time given within the SA trait line. However that would just annoy SA users.

If you Nerf the stealth from the DE skills, you'll then be forcing every DE to take SA in order to make sure they are able to pull off malicious attacks which will in turn hurt the DE's DPS since most SA traits are defensive in nature.

you can still permastealth solo even without silent scope.i like proposed solutions to issues that wont change the issue they have..

anyway the question is: is 1-2 second stealth really worth 1 endurance bar ?

also the amount of stealth from this trait was roughly like this since PoF and got more with the rework, this patch did not change the stealth amount - why does it start bothering you now?

With a rifle, those 4 seconds are useful for getting back into range - not just for popping off a DJ

disagree, rifle are still heavily reliant on positioning even with the new patch.

@MUDse.7623 well most likely because either he rarely seen any DE rifle before this patch or can't farm thief rifle anymore :D

No8 chars too short...

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:When you compare that to shadow meld, which is a 5 second cooldown (45 sec ammo recharge) for 3 seconds or Dagger/Pistol stealthing (6 ini + 3 per stack) it feels like it is way too easy to access and stay in stealth. It also not very fun to know you're that safe all the time, nor is it fun to deal with other Deadeyes that are perma stealth. Besides if you get revealed all you have to do is shadow meld and roll away.

You're using Shadow Meld wrong. Shadow Meld is not mainly to get in stealth - it is more about removing Revealed debuff.

Going in stealth should be easy. In fact, Thief should be in stealth at all times and only gets revealed if they have the Revealed debuff.

Reduce the Stealth granted to silent scope to 1 or 2 seconds, since after all the whole point of adding stealth was to make the new Death Judgement more fluid to use, not let thief camp invisibility forever. Stealth from the stolen ability feels fine, since you have to build malice to use it, though getting use to the cast time feels a little clunky.

No. They are going on the right path with the Deadeye. No need to go backward.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:You're using Shadow Meld wrong. Shadow Meld is not mainly to get in stealth - it is more about removing Revealed debuff.

Did you even read what I said?

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:Besides if you get revealed all you have to do is shadow meld and roll away.

My observations were purely based off of my recent experiences in WvW and like 5 pvp games. I've been playing SA deadeye for the last 3 patches (d/p + shortbow, switched to rifle after changes) and recently I have been slaughtering almost every class in sight(good players are always a challenge, regardless of class), it feels like something's wrong. I'm not trying to brag, it's a genuine concern that thief is a little over the top now, since I know how my performance was before the patch. Maybe it was the nerfs to other classes and feels like a break.

It also makes daredevil feel like trash since you dont get anywhere near the same damage nor the stealth uptime that deadeye has. Mobility is relative since you can just reverse the camera with action mode and death's retreat forward(it can teleport up walls with good pathing) and slot shadowsteps if you even need it.

I'll ride this wave while it lasts, but if everyone thinks thief is fine then so be it. Was just trying to anticipate future nerfs ^.^Either way I'll have fun swimming in bags.

If you go shadow arts you miss out on a ton of damage/ utility. So it's balanced.

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:You're using Shadow Meld wrong. Shadow Meld is not mainly to get in stealth - it is more about removing Revealed debuff.

You said it's too easy to stay in stealth through dodge compared to Shadow Meld, well you are wrong. The reason for Shadow Meld to have 5s CD for 3s stealth is because it's not mainly for stealth. The long cooldown is about removing Revealed. You're wrong to use Shadow Meld for your comparison.

It might be easy to dodge to stealth, but it does nothing if you are Revealed. If Silent Scope also removes Revealed, then you would see some ICD to balance it out.

Another fact is that, Silent Scope requires Rifle. That in itself makes it a bad trait since it pigeonhole builds to use Rifle.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Another fact is that, Silent Scope requires Rifle. That in itself makes it a bad trait since it pigeonhole builds to use Rifle.

I'm not sure how to feel about Stealth on dodge. There was always the argument of methods of Stealth outside of Blinding Powder and Hidden Thief being deniable or counterable before HoT. But beginning with Daredevil's dodging leap, Stealth became nearly guaranteed. With Deadeye, Stealth became even easier and safer.

While I've only had the expansions for a month or so, I'm really enjoying the ability to get into Stealth so easily without using up initiative/utilities, especially after the removal of the cooldown.

However, as much as I'm used to the old argument of Stealth needing counterplay, now that it's so easily accessible to not only the Thief, but to many other professions, I'm leaning toward the thought that Silent Scope should lose the Rifle requirement so it would be universal to all weapon sets. It would surely make non-Stealth utilities more competitive because the Stealth utilities would no longer be in such high demand.

While Dagger/Pistol doesn't necessarily need that change so much, other sets such as Dagger/Dagger or Pistol/Pistol could benefit from it, even if for no other reason than to reposition more safely.

@"CreedOfGod.9764" said:My observations were purely based off of my recent experiences in WvW and like 5 pvp games. I've been playing SA deadeye for the last 3 patches (d/p + shortbow, switched to rifle after changes) and recently I have been slaughtering almost every class in sight(good players are always a challenge, regardless of class), it feels like something's wrong. I'm not trying to brag, it's a genuine concern that thief is a little over the top now, since I know how my performance was before the patch. Maybe it was the nerfs to other classes and feels like a break.

This is similar to my feelings. I'm not saying I'm slaughtering anyone. But I have been getting a lot of kills in WvW since I started playing Deadeye the last few weeks.

I'm not sure what the reason is, though. I haven't played WvW in a couple of years, I had been playing PvP instead. So maybe WvW combat is easier for a Thief? Or maybe playing a Dagger Thief for years just made it feel so difficult to get kills, and that makes the Rifle feel too easy? Or maybe I'm just killing opponents who aren't so great playing against Thieves?

I first noticed whenever I was working to clear guards from an enemy camp, but got jumped by a Mithril Revenant. He hit me first, but I escaped. After a Binding Shadows, several Double Taps, and two Death's Judgment, he was on the ground. Absolutely shocked me how fast it happened... and how I actually avoided being inst-downed initially.

Then a couple of days ago, I was attacked by a Platinum Daredevil along with a Mesmer (can't remember the rank or spec). I downed the Mesmer, but he got revived by the Thief. I downed the Mesmer again and was able to stomp him. Then dueled the Thief long enough for the Mesmer to come back, and finally killed the Thief. Then I fought the Mesmer long enough for the Thief to return. Managed to down the Mesmer again, and believe I got the stomp before a Necro (possibly more) overwhelmed me.

Maybe the Rifle Deadeye is "too easy" to play? But perhaps it's just as difficult as many other professions are? I don't know. All I know is that it's not nearly as frustrating to play as as it is to play as a Dagger Thief. I just feel like I have the tools I need in order to survive and even win now. I don't know what it's like in PvP, but it's working well in WvW.

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:My observations were purely based off of my recent experiences in WvW and like 5 pvp games. I've been playing SA deadeye for the last 3 patches (d/p + shortbow, switched to rifle after changes) and recently I have been slaughtering almost every class in sight(good players are always a challenge, regardless of class), it feels like something's wrong. I'm not trying to brag, it's a genuine concern that thief is a little over the top now, since I know how my performance was before the patch. Maybe it was the nerfs to other classes and feels like a break.

you can and IMO have to play a deadeye rather safe. mark having a cast time compared to thief and deadeye lacking mobility+evades compared to daredevil results in the deadeye being really bad at reacting actively on what the opponents do. you will try to avoid it all together by outranging the opponents and frequent targetbreaks. with this if you try to stay on near max range and dont stay visible too long , dont spamm build up shots but use them precise, then you cant fight nearly all classes the same if you want to in 1 vs 1 combat. this makes deadeye very easy to learn and have success with for a new player.why you can kill so many easily ? well thats mostly cause of the range. most players in this game mode are noobs and dont know much about the game mechanics and other classes, if they even know their own class and build. but random button smashing even with a weird build might hurt in melee. closing a gap to a distant target in a short time requires more then just random pressing of your skills, you have to detect the opponent and react fast enough. many people i can kill without them reacting because i now use binding shadow, it is incredible but a majority of players in WvW dont break this 3s knockdown while their HP goes down quickly. i dont really need that skill against most builds but it just speeds everything up against bad players.IMO the rifle deadeye is not too easy, but the players in WvW are just too bad, many gave up trying to improve. they will just seek more allies when defeated, run away or just do the same over and over, they dont try to adapt, they dont try to learn what is killing them and why , how to avoid it.also picking your fight/target and avoiding unwinnable fights is very important in WvW. this can be done better the more stealth you have. mobility lets you escape a group but you need to leave the area for that. with stealth you can just stealth when they approach and pick the last of em while they are passing by, a kill you wont as easily get with mobility instead of stealth. deadeye with rifle has the best stealth access so hes ideal to pick fights. if you only pick fights you will win, then you cant lose :3

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Another fact is that, Silent Scope requires Rifle. That in itself makes it a bad trait since it pigeonhole builds to use Rifle.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Another fact is that, Silent Scope requires Rifle. That in itself makes it a bad trait since it pigeonhole builds to use Rifle.

They recently added a way to go in stealth without using a Rifle through Stolen Item, F2. However it requires that you have at least 5 stacks of Malice. The problem I have with this approach is that even if I don't want the stealth, I'm stuck with it. Thus if my build is not about stacking Malice since I constantly go in stealth, I am punished with additional casting time with no benefit. Another way of pigeon-holing to a certain build.

I'd take the unrestricted stealth-on-dodge than this clunky F2 stealth. I despise wasting dodge to go on stealth, but I'll take it if they remove the stealth on F2 and remove casting time from the Stolen Items.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@CreedOfGod.9764 said:My observations were purely based off of my recent experiences in WvW and like 5 pvp games. I've been playing SA deadeye for the last 3 patches (d/p + shortbow, switched to rifle after changes) and recently I have been slaughtering almost every class in sight(good players are always a challenge, regardless of class), it feels like something's wrong. I'm not trying to brag, it's a genuine concern that thief is a little over the top now, since I know how my performance was before the patch. Maybe it was the nerfs to other classes and feels like a break.

This is what makes Deadeye or any Stealth build strong: You can pick the fights you want.Stealth has this unique mechanic allowing you to engage or to disengage a fight which gives you an advantage. The counter to that is the Revealed debuff - Deadey elite skill can counter that (2 times) and that makes Deadeye probably the best stealth access trait from the thiefs arsenal.Range is another aspect: I don't know how many times I've lost fights because I could not close gaps fast enough. The more time you need to close the gap the more health you will lose. If you close the gap and you are already at half health the enemy has a big advantage over you.Shadowstep + Rifle can absolutely destroy (inexperienced) players: You engage the fight and if they decide to fight and try to close the gap to you - shadow step from them. They turn around, block, use heal skill or whatever they will just burn their resources an try to close the gap again. Once near enough you use ShadowReturn and the whole thing starts again. At this point they are basically dead but this is really not knowing the game mechanics or just inexperienced players which WvW has alot.This is why (at least for me) Deadeye feels so powerful.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Another fact is that, Silent Scope requires Rifle. That in itself makes it a bad trait since it pigeonhole builds to use Rifle.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Another fact is that, Silent Scope requires Rifle. That in itself makes it a bad trait since it pigeonhole builds to use Rifle.

This change hurt my mightshare build so much. You could be a Thief which could do good dmg and give 10 people permanent 25 stacks of might and basically infinite fury. Since F2 stolen skill has now a cast time it makes absolut no fun anymore since it interrupts your dps and just feels clunky.I can understand the stealth on F2 needs a cast time but just add the cast time if you have 5 malice and no cast time if you are under 5 malice!

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Another fact is that, Silent Scope requires Rifle. That in itself makes it a bad trait since it pigeonhole builds to use Rifle.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Another fact is that, Silent Scope requires Rifle. That in itself makes it a bad trait since it pigeonhole builds to use Rifle.

Putting a cast time on the Mark abilities was the reason I leaned my main build towards a perma-stealth backstab build rather than my previous main of "All Rifle all Shooty all the Time forever pew pew." I get why they did it, because PvE carebear crybabies wanted a way to get stealth, and if they kept the abilities instant then we would often reveal ourselves - especially under the effects of quickness.

The might share is reduced somewhat but the gameplay flow is much better with Payback.

For might sharing, the best option is to focus on might building, then swap to DPS mode rather than trying to weave them together. You just need to land three stolen skills to get 24 stacks of might. You have plenty of time after you might stack to apply burst. The might lasts a while especially if you build concentration into your build. You might do less DPS but your group will do a lot more DPS.

@Turk.5460 said:...if they kept the abilities instant then we would often reveal ourselves - especially under the effects of quickness.

Doubling the casting time never alleviated that problem.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Turk.5460 said:...if they kept the abilities instant then we would often reveal ourselves - especially under the effects of quickness.

What? The cast time wasn't doubled, it never had one to begin with. Going from instant to .25s means that your character can't be attacking at the same time as you using the mark ability. And since the mark ability stealths you before continuing your auto-attack (if you even have it enabled) then you don't reveal yourself with a bullet already in flight. I don't think our bullet velocity takes longer than .25s to reach it's destination from the point it was fired, the aftercast of the skill, and then the .25s cast of the mark ability.

@Turk.5460 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Turk.5460 said:...if they kept the abilities instant then we would often reveal ourselves - especially under the effects of quickness.

You're right. I was looking at bad information (GW2wiki has it at 1/2s activation time, it's supposed to be 1/2s recharge time). I stand corrected on that fact.

It still feels clunky when using it in game. And my point still stands that below 5 malice points, the added casting time is an unjustified nerf.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Turk.5460 said:...if they kept the abilities instant then we would often reveal ourselves - especially under the effects of quickness.

It's a nerf for PvP/WvW, but a buff for PvE it seems. It is most heavily felt when equipped with the Mark's Guardian(Aegis), Ranger(Immob), and Thief(Blind) abilities. No more clutch avoidance or denials.

Stealth on dodge is just silly. It's annoying to play against x/P Daredevils who use Bound already. This Silent Scope stuff is just on a whole new level.

While I do agree that Thief should have great access to Stealth, I'm also very much of a mind that it requires proper counterplay. Currently, other than the ICD there's no counterplay to it. Ok, sometimes you can immobilize, as Thieves we can do that more often than most others... But really.I just don't know how they thought this would be healthy to the game...I'd rather see them change it to a short duration Smokefield, so that you'd still have to invest a skill to gain stealth from it (like a 1 second Snipers' Cover). Or maybe have it add 1 Malice on dodge with a 8 second ICD. Something like that, or have it add 1 Malice upon entering stealth with a 2 second ICD, keep Deadeye Stealth based, let dodges be the area of the Daredevil. Personally, I don't think it actually needs more than the 20% Critical Hit Chance, but flat modifiers are a tad boring.

Investing a dodge to it is a pretty big cost, so I don't mind there being a nice effect from it. But it should still allow for counterplay.