Why not rework necro minions to function on the level of clones? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why not rework necro minions to function on the level of clones?

Just got hit by 5 split surge for 2000+ each then a mindwreck for 11000+. Thought to myself wish my minions could deal that damage. Not sure what Anet' view is but I consider clones, pets, minions, thief guild, drones, spirits as all summoned enities. Why are minions so weak compared to the others?

Comments

  • DeWolfe.2174DeWolfe.2174 Member ✭✭✭

    No no no no no and no. You leave minions alone.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like Blood Fiend and Flesh golem as they are. The others not so much. Do with them as you will.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would love to see minions get deleted from the game and instead give useful abilities that either do dmg or that are useful in pvp,-modes

  • EpicName.4523EpicName.4523 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2018

    Don't know if clones are the solution, but please do SOMETHING with those minions. They frequently get stuck somewhere and disappear without logical reason which can even lead to your death if you have a build heavily reliant on them. They cannot be controlled like ranger pets and as a whole are extremely passive and annoying to deal with..

    The ONLY good thing about necro minions is how much survivability they can provide...as long as they don't bug out and disappear.

  • SunTzu.4513SunTzu.4513 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2018

    Noooo i like them how they are. An AI panel like the rangerpets would be nice but not something like clones. If i want clones/illusions i play my mesmer.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2018

    If it's a trade-off as in the more damage the minions are doing the less damage the PC is going to do than yes, they should definitely do more damage. Also, minions from other classes should work similar to the necro minions and stay up until they are defeated.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2018

    Also keep in mind, the damage comes from Mesmers profession mechanic (shatters) rather than the clones themselves. Greatsword and sword Clones do rubbish damage on their own after all.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would be awesome if they gave Death Nova a bit of oomph, comparable to a shatter or 2.

  • SunTzu.4513SunTzu.4513 Member ✭✭✭

    Would be awesome if they gave Death Nova a bit of oomph, comparable to a shatter or 2.

    Thats an nice idea. Something like you can sacrifice them with F-skills and get something like an aoe dps field, buff or other effect from it.

  • Ceit.7619Ceit.7619 Member ✭✭✭

    Minion skills already have on-use abilities that could be reworked into 'good' purposes, currently those abilities either have high cooldowns or are just very lackluster. I would imagine something like maybe make them a ground-target ability that deals damage and summons the minion by that effect, with an active that detonates it for another effect. Kind of like a combination of how Rise and Bone Minions work, except with some better effects.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Just got hit by 5 split surge for 2000+ each then a mindwreck for 11000+. Thought to myself wish my minions could deal that damage. Not sure what Anet' view is but I consider clones, pets, minions, thief guild, drones, spirits as all summoned enities. Why are minions so weak compared to the others?

    Ive made this suggestion in other threads several times before and even went into great detail about it. People dont care about minions, because they have given up on the fact that anet will improve them.

    I dont think you would even need to blow minions like shattered clones to make them more rewarding and promote more of an active play style.

    Ideally Necro minions should not be complete mesmer clones /phants but they should not also be the same as ranger pets.
    They should be a mesh some where in the middle of the two and thats where they miss the mark. They need to be able to take a bit more damage to be stronger but not as strong as ranger pets. At the same time I think like mesmer phants they should not exist in the world for forever and should expire after a while but should have to potential to do respectable damage via unique attack after summoning.

    These are just silly examples i can see in my head

    Shadow fiend doing a shadow step attack striking your foe or nearby foes multiple times applying chill and blind.
    Bone fiend doing a bristle back like attack when it spawns for burst damage
    Bone minions should not expire and exist in the world the moment you slot the skill with 3 charges. Each charge gained spawns a new one and using a charge causes one to leap at your target and daze them before going boom.
    Flesh wurm simply need to be an on demand break stun shadow step on the first case leaving the wurm in your previous location > Returning to it has a cast time instead.
    Golem should spawn the moment you slot the skill. Using a charge causes it to do its current charge knock down and frenzy gaining super speed and quickness dealing increased damage for 10 seconds. It should have 2 active charges with a 10 second cd between each use.
    Blood fiend should only be summoned when the caster wants a large heal boost in which it spawns and performs a stronger dagger 2 like attack on the targeted foe.

    With the exception of flesh golem and bone minions an wurm
    All other summons should expire after lingering for 5-10 seconds once they have completed their unique attack. Wit that said they need no less than 2 charges each and the cast times to summon them should be reduced as well as their cds.

    The idea is that if they were not so passive and could not potentially live for an unlimited amount of time their damage could be potentially much higher.

  • Arzurag.7506Arzurag.7506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2018

    My personal issue with minions is their durability or more accurately, the lack of it.

    Even if a few mobs cough in their direction, they die.
    Therefore I propose that minions only get damaged by a certain percentage per hit.

    Like, an enemy attacks and hits 4 times, my minion only gets like 1% of his health drained, no matter how high the actual damage is.
    Of course, this would need adjustments in pvp/wvw but overall, I see no other way to make my minions useful.

    Minions have utility, which I can't make use of, if my minions get killed by literally anything.

    "I´m not big on sermons, Broken bones teach better lessons."

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    aion did pets the right way with spiritmaster

    i wish gw2 had something like magma/tempest spirits

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arzurag.7506 said:
    My personal issue with minions is their durability or more accurately, the lack of it.

    Even if a few mobs cough in their direction, they die.
    Therefore I propose that minions only get damaged by a certain percentage per hit.

    Like, an enemy attacks and hits 4 times, my minion only gets like 1% of his health drained, no matter how high the actual damage is.
    Of course, this would need adjustments in pvp/wvw but overall, I see no other way to make my minions useful.

    Minions have utility, which I can't make use of, if my minions get killed by literally anything.

    Have you...played the game recently? My Bone Minions never freaking die in PvE, and they're the squishiest ones! In PvE, minions (and other player-owned AI) have a 95% damage reduction if they are not the primary target for an attack.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Arzurag.7506Arzurag.7506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Arzurag.7506 said:
    My personal issue with minions is their durability or more accurately, the lack of it.

    Even if a few mobs cough in their direction, they die.
    Therefore I propose that minions only get damaged by a certain percentage per hit.

    Like, an enemy attacks and hits 4 times, my minion only gets like 1% of his health drained, no matter how high the actual damage is.
    Of course, this would need adjustments in pvp/wvw but overall, I see no other way to make my minions useful.

    Minions have utility, which I can't make use of, if my minions get killed by literally anything.

    Have you...played the game recently? My Bone Minions never freaking die in PvE, and they're the squishiest ones! In PvE, minions (and other player-owned AI) have a 95% damage reduction if they are not the primary target for an attack.

    Well, let them stand in aoe from a champion, legendary or worldboss, then you can see, how durable they are.
    Maybe they're not supposed to endure such minor amounts of damage but I personally expect them to.
    They take a utility-slot each and only do like 5% of my own damage in total.

    Anet needs to rework minions entirely, otherwise they will stay laughable under powered and weak.

    "I´m not big on sermons, Broken bones teach better lessons."

  • Sarrs.4831Sarrs.4831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2018

    Do we actually want Minions to be good? They're already best picks for a lot of PvE content for lack of opposing choices, and I don't want a petting zoo meta in WvW or sPvP.

    RE minions dying; they've got the power damage protection but they aren't protected from condition damage unless you use the trait that causes them to send conditions with their strikes. They're probably dying from condis.

  • Drarnor Kunoram.5180Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arzurag.7506 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Arzurag.7506 said:
    My personal issue with minions is their durability or more accurately, the lack of it.

    Even if a few mobs cough in their direction, they die.
    Therefore I propose that minions only get damaged by a certain percentage per hit.

    Like, an enemy attacks and hits 4 times, my minion only gets like 1% of his health drained, no matter how high the actual damage is.
    Of course, this would need adjustments in pvp/wvw but overall, I see no other way to make my minions useful.

    Minions have utility, which I can't make use of, if my minions get killed by literally anything.

    Have you...played the game recently? My Bone Minions never freaking die in PvE, and they're the squishiest ones! In PvE, minions (and other player-owned AI) have a 95% damage reduction if they are not the primary target for an attack.

    Well, let them stand in aoe from a champion, legendary or worldboss, then you can see, how durable they are.
    Maybe they're not supposed to endure such minor amounts of damage but I personally expect them to.
    They take a utility-slot each and only do like 5% of my own damage in total.

    Anet needs to rework minions entirely, otherwise they will stay laughable under powered and weak.

    I do from time to time, and they survive everything. I don't know what you're doing wrong.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2018

    @Arzurag.7506 said:

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

    @Arzurag.7506 said:
    My personal issue with minions is their durability or more accurately, the lack of it.

    Even if a few mobs cough in their direction, they die.
    Therefore I propose that minions only get damaged by a certain percentage per hit.

    Like, an enemy attacks and hits 4 times, my minion only gets like 1% of his health drained, no matter how high the actual damage is.
    Of course, this would need adjustments in pvp/wvw but overall, I see no other way to make my minions useful.

    Minions have utility, which I can't make use of, if my minions get killed by literally anything.

    Have you...played the game recently? My Bone Minions never freaking die in PvE, and they're the squishiest ones! In PvE, minions (and other player-owned AI) have a 95% damage reduction if they are not the primary target for an attack.

    Well, let them stand in aoe from a champion, legendary or worldboss, then you can see, how durable they are.
    Maybe they're not supposed to endure such minor amounts of damage but I personally expect them to.
    They take a utility-slot each and only do like 5% of my own damage in total.

    Anet needs to rework minions entirely, otherwise they will stay laughable under powered and weak.

    That is NOT a durability issue. I mean, put it another way, why would anyone think it's reasonable to have 5 minions that can stand in a Champ AOE ... and come out fighting and relatively unharmed? Frankly, I don't have minion durability issues anyways, and I use them to solo HoT Mastery Point champs ... so not sure what you are doing.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    fun fact in regards to minion damage

    consumable minions like the fire elemental powder and ogre pet whistle usually end up doing twice or more damage each in a fight than blood fiend, shadow fiend and flesh golem combined

    check your fractal logs when you've used them and you too can feel sad about it

  • Cuddy.6247Cuddy.6247 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:
    If it's a trade-off as in the more damage the minions are doing the less damage the PC is going to do than yes, they should definitely do more damage. Also, minions from other classes should work similar to the necro minions and stay up until they are defeated.

    I'd really like to see a spec where you significantly sacrifice your own output by making an army of the dead. Similar to GW1's spirit spammer - you didn't really carry any skills outside of your spirits and a couple of things to keep them alive and mobile. But otherwise, you really hurt your own ability to churn any damage, you just had a spirit wall that worked righteously strong.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuddy.6247 said:

    @Tails.9372 said:
    If it's a trade-off as in the more damage the minions are doing the less damage the PC is going to do than yes, they should definitely do more damage. Also, minions from other classes should work similar to the necro minions and stay up until they are defeated.

    I'd really like to see a spec where you significantly sacrifice your own output by making an army of the dead. Similar to GW1's spirit spammer - you didn't really carry any skills outside of your spirits and a couple of things to keep them alive and mobile. But otherwise, you really hurt your own ability to churn any damage, you just had a spirit wall that worked righteously strong.

    We already had that in the form of Turret tank engineer, back before HoT, and it was utterly cancerous in pvp. Hence why turrets were nerfed so much.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Ambush.9420Ambush.9420 Member ✭✭
    edited July 21, 2018

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Just got hit by 5 split surge for 2000+ each then a mindwreck for 11000+. Thought to myself wish my minions could deal that damage. Not sure what Anet' view is but I consider clones, pets, minions, thief guild, drones, spirits as all summoned enities. Why are minions so weak compared to the others?

    With the exception of flesh golem and bone minions an wurm
    All other summons should expire after lingering for 5-10 seconds once they have completed their unique attack. Wit that said they need no less than 2 charges each and the cast times to summon them should be reduced as well as their cds.

    The idea is that if they were not so passive and could not potentially live for an unlimited amount of time their damage could be potentially much higher.

    No no no no no! The whole reason I play necromancer is to control a mini army. That would be horrible. There are so few MMO's that have a proper necromancer class, guild wars 2 is one of the few ones that does is right. A necromancer is all about controlling an army of undead minions.

  • The V.8759The V.8759 Member ✭✭

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Would be awesome if they gave Death Nova a bit of oomph, comparable to a shatter or 2.

    It would if they would Let it scale off of your own power modifier. Sigh

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd prefer it if the minions worked like the lich form's summon madness, minions that do something then die off in an explosion. Then possibly get an espec which works with the current iteration of minions with a class mechanic that lets you control them.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The V.8759 said:

    @ReaverKane.7598 said:
    Would be awesome if they gave Death Nova a bit of oomph, comparable to a shatter or 2.

    It would if they would Let it scale off of your own power modifier. Sigh

    Power for the bang, condi for the poison!

    @Sephylon.4938 said:
    I'd prefer it if the minions worked like the lich form's summon madness, minions that do something then die off in an explosion. Then possibly get an espec which works with the current iteration of minions with a class mechanic that lets you control them.

    You can do a build around that behaviour though...
    You can use Reaper with minions and "Rise!" to get a big bunch of temp minions. Add Death Nova to summon even more minions when you kill a foe, and make your minions do damage when they die.
    That was a popular build a while back. I'm sure they nerfed it, i don't know the specifics, since i preferred the "In your face" approach to Reaper and never experimented with that build.

  • guild wars 1 minions did it right.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @needbeer.1687 said:
    guild wars 1 minions did it right.

    Indeed, GW2 took a step backwards in a few things, this being one of them.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sephylon.4938 said:
    I'd prefer it if the minions worked like the lich form's summon madness, minions that do something then die off in an explosion. Then possibly get an espec which works with the current iteration of minions with a class mechanic that lets you control them.

    For Dwayna's sake please no more elite specs that are AI orientated.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Death magic is the defensive line. Same with Inventions.

    Phantasms are offensive tools, clones are defensive tools and the mesmer's profession mechanic used for all its roles.

    Minions and turrets are defensive tools, used mostly to soak up damage. A meat wall. If anything, minions could use a way to block projectiles like turrets can.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @needbeer.1687 said:
    guild wars 1 minions did it right.

    Yep, should require corpses and lifeforce to raise minions. That would vastly improve them for gw2... Really though, minions in gw1 did no damage either.

    Death Nova and Putrid Explosion should really scale off the necromancers stats or something.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ambush.9420 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @DaVid Darksoul.4985 said:
    Just got hit by 5 split surge for 2000+ each then a mindwreck for 11000+. Thought to myself wish my minions could deal that damage. Not sure what Anet' view is but I consider clones, pets, minions, thief guild, drones, spirits as all summoned enities. Why are minions so weak compared to the others?

    With the exception of flesh golem and bone minions an wurm
    All other summons should expire after lingering for 5-10 seconds once they have completed their unique attack. Wit that said they need no less than 2 charges each and the cast times to summon them should be reduced as well as their cds.

    The idea is that if they were not so passive and could not potentially live for an unlimited amount of time their damage could be potentially much higher.

    No no no no no! The whole reason I play necromancer is to control a mini army. That would be horrible. There are so few MMO's that have a proper necromancer class, guild wars 2 is one of the few ones that does is right. A necromancer is all about controlling an army of undead minions.

    if you call 4 mostly ineffective outdated creatures any army then sure.
    But keep int mind this is just a suggestion i dont expect many people if any to really like it. if you feel like them bieng the way they are is better then thats fine but i think we can still both agree they need to be better than what they currently are.

  • Rhyse.8179Rhyse.8179 Member ✭✭✭

    What the OP is complaining about is actually the Mesmer's core class mechanic. It's not the CLONES doing that damage, it's the mesmer itself shattering them. There's no comparison between that and necro minions; they are completely different.

  • Seems to me we need something like Order of Undeath. Something to tactically boost minions capabilities, probably at a cost to you the minion master. That would probably the realm of an elite spec type thing. But I like the idea of just bumping up the active abilities for each minion. Make death nova a bit more potent, make the shadow fiend's teleport more responsive, etc.

    @Sarrs.4831 said:
    Do we actually want Minions to be good? They're already best picks for a lot of PvE content for lack of opposing choices, and I don't want a petting zoo meta in WvW or sPvP.

    That is a good point as well. Minions are already pretty reliable in pve, maybe not "optimal" in many places but the wall of meatshields on top of necro tankiness lets you get away with a lot of shenanigans against stuff you shouldn't be taking on alone.

    Probably the best thing is just some QoL tweaks to minions and their abilities (like the recent addition of the shark golem) and leave more intensive additions and changes to the elite specs.

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