Main Hand Dagger Condition

We had a pretty big thread on this topic in the old forum. It was nearing 300 Replies. I'd like to have the whole thread migrated here, but if it cannot be, then I will make a new thread about it.

The discussion was about adding a Condition to the Auto Attack of the Mainhand Dagger. This would be for Scourge, since there is an extreme need for Life Force regen.

Main Hand Dagger will be needed for all Scourge builds, unless Staff can be used in AoE packs. The weapon set up will be Scepter/Dagger, and Dagger/Torch. There were many testers, myself included that agree that adding a Condition to the Mainhand Dagger Auto Attack would lead to a better flow of DPS without a loss.

If we didn't switch to Main Hand Dagger to regen Life Force, then our DPS would fall extremly low, because we need to be spamming Sand Shade Skills for our DPS. Main Hand Dagger makes this possible.

The most common suggestion was to add Bleeding to the Auto Attack.

We can continue the discussion here now :D

Shamelessly linking to the original thread just in case:https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/necromancer/Main-Hand-Dagger-Condi/page/

Since the primary thing people use the Dagger MH for is to build LF (as other weapons have better power DPS), I think it would be very nice to add some conditions like bleed on the auto attack chain.That would put the dagger in a place of being adept at DPS for both power and condi builds, and the primary benefit for using it would be for utility like LF generation, without losing too much DPS for switching from the main damage weapon (GS for power or Scepter for condi).

@Aesa.4819 said:Since the primary thing people use the Dagger MH for is to build LF (as other weapons have better power DPS), I think it would be very nice to add some conditions like bleed on the auto attack chain.That would put the dagger in a place of being adept at DPS for both power and condi builds, and the primary benefit for using it would be for utility like LF generation, without losing too much DPS for switching from the main damage weapon (GS for power or Scepter for condi).

Utility and sustain in general. Between the high life force generation and the healing from Life Siphon, it's pretty well set as our "sustain" weapon. But, condition builds need sustain too.

Short bleeds on the auto are a great way to advance the theme and make the weapon more attractive to all builds, but only if the Power coefficients don't get nerfed to "compensate." Mainhand dagger's damage is only on the "adequate" tier right now, not "good."

I'm not saying that condition damage on main hand dagger is a bad idea (I'd love it) but I do offer an alternative seeing as this is a scourge problem more than a general necro problem.Change the 3rd minor trait on scourge so that each strike with a weapon skill that grants life force has a chance to bleed on hit and you receive a little less damage for each damaging condition on your foe.

I suggest this because scourges' current 3rd minor is a bit on the boring side since it is basically the defense version of the 2nd minor. Further more, the philosophy of the scourge is to not stack sand shades, yet having both minors rely on shade count combats this idea.

This also opens up axe, focus, and warhorn as alternative life force generating weapons if dagger auto attack turns out to be too excessive.

@Coffietire.2783 said:Change the 3rd minor trait on scourge so that each strike with a weapon skill that grants life force has a chance to bleed on hit and you receive a little less damage for each damaging condition on your foe.

Torment or Burning would be more appropriate for a Scourge trait. While I don't think this is a bad idea at all, bleed on dagger AA also buff core necromancer and this is probably something to consider too.

Corrupt boon on 3rd. Yes please.

Necrotic Slash - add a 1s bleed per hit.Necrotic Stab - add a 3s bleed.Necrotic Bite - add a 3s bleed.

@Lahmia.2193 said:Necrotic Slash - add a 1s bleed per hit.Necrotic Stab - add a 3s bleed.Necrotic Bite - add a 3s bleed.

This would be nice

if it's not possible to add it baseline, add it in a trait, i think this is necessary

Would be nice if they ad some poison and bleeding on the AA chain for dagger.

@Death.9268 said:Would be nice if they ad some poison and bleeding on the AA chain for dagger.

Yeah, it could be a weaker Scepter auto attack chain.

@raul.7859 said:if it's not possible to add it baseline, add it in a trait, i think this is necessary

If it was added to a Trait then it would most likely be in Blood Magic. With Scourge we need Curses and Soul Reaping.

@Kam.4092 said:

@Death.9268 said:Would be nice if they ad some poison and bleeding on the AA chain for dagger.

Honestly I prefer Torment over poison, if it had to be one or the other.

Why turn a power weapon into a hybrid?You lose +150 condition damage and +10% condition duration (via superior sigil of malice) by leaving it...that's if people like taking that trait (I say that as some like to go for the healing trait) of which wouldn't matter then.I know staff would be okay for LF but otherwise it's a naf based two handed weapon.. So wouldn't Scepter/torch Scepter/Dagger be better for the condi transfer ?

Because scepter/dagger and scepter/torch are terrible for life force. Since you mentioned Torch, that means you're a Scourge, which is very hungry for life force.

@Kam.4092 said:

@raul.7859 said:if it's not possible to add it baseline, add it in a trait, i think this is necessary

I disagree. We dont need curses for scourge. Bloodmagic works surpisingly well with scourge.

I think we will see two builds (depending how good barriers will be for support), a pure condi build with curses and a more support orientated build with bloodmagic. Transfusion on a 12 sec cooldown is really strong especially since you also get healt by it and it cannot be interrupted.

If Thief can have a power or condi dagger build I am not sure why people think adding condi to Necro would hurt the power viability. Can we get dagger animation speed of Thief and add some sweeeeeeet condi to it? I am all in on this.

The Mainhand Dagger is a Power Weapon. In the hands of core necros and scourges, it is the only one of two power weapons they can access. Adding conditions onto it would likely result in a nerf to its power capability, and turning it into a condition weapon entirely would take away the only one of two power weapons scourges and core necros can access.

If the issue of lifeforce generation is, indeed, an issue, for Scourge? Address it, sure, but through means other than altering the power dagger to be partially or wholly a condition weapon because, quite simply, the power dagger needs help in the absence of the Greatsword on Necromancers - buffed for power users. Not for condition users. If condition users need help generating lifeforce on Scourge, I wholly support supplying that lifeforce generation through some means, but not by partially or fully altering power weapons into more condition weapons. My biggest concern with any condition added to the mainhand dagger, even if it's just partial, is that it then won't get the power buffs it needs for power users that lack access to the greatsword, something condition users simply do not face where mainhands are concerned - especially given the state of power versus condition damage in the game as it stands now. No, condition damage added on top of the dagger's power damage is not a buff for power users, and will not scale for them in any notable way.

I'd make the argument that the Torch should have been a mainhand condition LF generator for Scourges, with the Scepter being damage dealing mainhand for condition users given that Necromancers already had a Condition Offhand, however, I know some will disagree with me there . . .which I understand, I'm certainly not the final authority on this, it's just an opinion. I'm just not convinced the Torch offhand is what the scourge needed.

That all said I'm certainly willing to give the Scourge and Torch a go, and if I'm proven wrong, I'll be happily so.

Considering Power builds stack Might well, bleeding on dagger auto will help them more than you think. Plus, it helps Life Siphon get its built-in damage boost actually running, something that doesn't happen in Power builds.

Torch mainhand would have been awesome.

@Lucian.8235 said:The Mainhand Dagger is a Power Weapon. In the hands of core necros and scourges, it is the only one of two power weapons they can access. Adding conditions onto it would likely result in a nerf to its power capability, and turning it into a condition weapon entirely would take away the only one of two power weapons scourges and core necros can access.

Why should weapons be condi or power ? Can't they be both ? Like power oriented hybrid, condi oriented hybrid, etc. ? We have the weapon stats to make it work, after all (Viper/Grieving).Also, I don't see why dagger would be nerfed by adding bleed to it. Even with the bleed added, necro dagger will probably still be far from being the best weapon in the game. So there is no need to nerf the power component.

@Lucian.8235 said:Adding conditions onto it would likely result in a nerf to its power capability,

No, it'd be a buff. Which, by the way, could help Power-based necros/reapers, especially if Grieving becomes useful. It could help reaper use a Grieving-based build and actually do fairly well.

Look, the issue is this: Condi necro has ONE condi mainhand weapon. All others are pure and utterly bad in PVE. There's no choice! Adding choice helps everyone.

@Kaladel.1670 said:

@Lucian.8235 said:The Mainhand Dagger is a Power Weapon. In the hands of core necros and scourges, it is the only one of two power weapons they can access. Adding conditions onto it would likely result in a nerf to its power capability, and turning it into a condition weapon entirely would take away the only one of two power weapons scourges and core necros can access.

If a weapon is more than one, it has to be balanced with both in mind, meaning one or the other will be lesser and those interested in pure power and pure condi builds are thus effected. You have a weapon that's both condi and power . . . people feel different ways about it. Regardless, the interest here is LF gen, and adding condi to a power weapon isn't really something I have an interest in. This is, of course, just my opinion, interest in such a weapon will vary from person to person - I submit this preference as nothing more than my own opinion based on my own tastes. I'm not suggesting that it couldn't be a good and powerful tool, if Arena.net were truly really interested in making it such.

Also, I don't see why dagger would be nerfed by adding bleed to it. Even with the bleed added, necro dagger will probably still be far from being the best weapon in the game. So there is no need to nerf the power component.

@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Lucian.8235 said:Adding conditions onto it would likely result in a nerf to its power capability,

You misunderstand. I don't mean adding bleed to the dagger would nerf it. I mean, because they don't seem interested in increasing dagger damage, there's a possibility that they might nerf the power portion to make way for any condi addition. They've left it in this state for quite some time suggesting they think the dagger is fine, regardless of my own opinions. I can only assume this, of course, as the communication in regard to such things, from the devs, hasn't exactly been transparent (and fairly rare besides).

That's something to consider given it's the only high damage power weapon the Necromancer will have in core Necro and Scourge, where power builds are concerned. They could, of course, make the weapon better too, but, given they haven't made it better in all this time I question whether they think the dagger is in need of buff, regardless of my own view that it does need a buff.

I'd still prefer Scourges get their LF through other means, I also submit that the dagger should (in my opinion) stay a pure power weapon, and I'm under no delusion that others have to agree with me on that.

@Lucian.8235 said:

@Kaladel.1670 said:

@Lucian.8235 said:The Mainhand Dagger is a Power Weapon. In the hands of core necros and scourges, it is the only one of two power weapons they can access. Adding conditions onto it would likely result in a nerf to its power capability, and turning it into a condition weapon entirely would take away the only one of two power weapons scourges and core necros can access.

Also, I don't see why dagger would be nerfed by adding bleed to it. Even with the bleed added, necro dagger will probably still be far from being the best weapon in the game. So there is no need to nerf the power component.

@Zefiris.8297 said:

@Lucian.8235 said:Adding conditions onto it would likely result in a nerf to its power capability,

It's already behind other power weapons, and the #2 and #3 skills are utility, and because of the lack in power DPS compared to other weapons #1 is mostly also used for its utility (LF generation).I think adding some bleeds would be a nice way to go, so dagger can be used for both average power damage and average condition damage but good utility.Bleeds also fit the dagger weapon thematically, it doesn't need to only have power damage potential.