Just a question

I would just like to ask @Gaile Gray.6029 since from what i saw i think she is the head of all these threads so prolly knows what and how will happen = Will thieves elites ever go in clearly Condi Dmg way? (Sort of like Berserker for warior did) (not necesserally the next one just someday in future)Thanks for the answer if i get it.

berserker is not clearly going condi damage. i mean thats the only common use thats left as many other good parts of it got nerfed but it was really good on power.i also think gaile is working more with forums/community not really the development of new classes, but she might be in position to ask the right guys. yet arena net doesnt really give information about content that is not finalized, so you shouldnt expect a clear answer for this. because if we were at that point we probably would already have heard from it in an announcement.

Gaile is a she.

She's the Community Manager, not part of the dev/design team.

@killy.3278 said:Gaile is a she.

She's the Community Manager, not part of the dev/design team.

thank you i fixed it i didnt know 8/

Would love to see more love for the Condi. I really do hate that the DE had its condi potential stripped from it.

@Kallist.5917 said:Would love to see more love for the Condi. I really do hate that the DE had its condi potential stripped from it.

How? DE has tons of condi application compared to DD and better utility as well.

I’m not seeing the 13% shave off Potent Poison as much of a nerf considering the other buffs to DE and especially Payback.

Condi thief is highly reliant on utilities. Payback let’s those utilities come back faster. To me, it’s a net gain from where we were with DE 1.0 and 2.0.

@saerni.2584 said:

@Kallist.5917 said:Would love to see more love for the Condi. I really do hate that the DE had its condi potential stripped from it.

Hey man, I don't like all this talk from a PvE prospective to justify that condi thief is an ok state cus of Payback. Payback blows in wvw, and bottom line, condi thief is in a bad state atm.

@Xtinct.7031 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Kallist.5917 said:Would love to see more love for the Condi. I really do hate that the DE had its condi potential stripped from it.

Uh, it’s pretty strong in WvW and PvP...

I wasn’t referring to PvE.

okay guys you dont need to argue here i just asked the person in charge (or at least i thought it would be person in charge) and to be honest condi DD currently has tops 26k on golem, in pvp condi thief has huge issues cuz everything cleanses conditions now, in wvw i dont know cuz i stopped playing it cuz thief was not good there or at least not as good as i would expect it to be.so from my perspective condi theif really isnt in a good state in comparison to every other possible condi class that is why i asked.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I would just like to ask @Gaile Gray.6029 since from what i saw i think she is the head of all these threads so prolly knows what and how will happen = Will thieves elites ever go in clearly Condi Dmg way? (Sort of like Berserker for warior did) (not necesserally the next one just someday in future)Thanks for the answer if i get it.

You will never get the answer you want for this since from what they've said before they may consider CONDI today, but reject it tomorrow. It is part of their reiterative process. They will also say that they don't discuss their internal process. Another common answer is that they are testing every possible build.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I would just like to ask @Gaile Gray.6029 since from what i saw i think she is the head of all these threads so prolly knows what and how will happen = Will thieves elites ever go in clearly Condi Dmg way? (Sort of like Berserker for warior did) (not necesserally the next one just someday in future)Thanks for the answer if i get it.

i just wanted answer like yes we consider it/no we dont consider it that would be enough

@saerni.2584 said:

@Kallist.5917 said:Would love to see more love for the Condi. I really do hate that the DE had its condi potential stripped from it.

Because 6 months ago, I could apply 5 conditions in an AOE burst hitting 5 players, reaching 25 Vuln, 40 poison and Crippling the enemy, and it took me 2 seconds to do it.Edit: My mistake, it was 8 conditions. I forgot to count in the ones from the stolen skill's being spammed.

“Could.”

In practice, I find that the patch 1.0 AoE potential of stolen skills was less impactful than is being suggested. I’d also suggest that the 40 Poison you cited is either exaggerated or requires the target to sit in a poison field for the full duration and not move/defend. That’s not realistic.

As a practical matter the stronger skills are ones that hit reliably and let the DE sustain the momentum to keep being dangerous with conditions. In that sense, DE sustain got much better in the 2.5 patch. So did several cantrips like Mercy and MR. So the end result is a buff compared to patch 2.0. I’m not sure it’s fair to compare to v1.0 when so much has changed to fundamental specialization mechanics (malice).

Condi DE was functional in v2.0. It got overall better in 2.5. There were some nerfs but also several buffs.

Take Mercy and Payback. Each kill reduces the cooldown by at least 6 seconds (10 in pvp). So you get double mark application back really fast. This is good for DE given the base poison on the mark. Then you add in Binding Shadow which also returns very quick for huge CC and vuln and damage. Then you add in faster healing and more elite skill use. Those can both either increase sustain or damage significantly—or both.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I would just like to ask @Gaile Gray.6029 since from what i saw i think she is the head of all these threads so prolly knows what and how will happen = Will thieves elites ever go in clearly Condi Dmg way? (Sort of like Berserker for warior did) (not necesserally the next one just someday in future)Thanks for the answer if i get it.

So when the HoT specs were released they noticed the core specs at the time were all driven to either condi or power. They mentioned back then that they want every spec to have the ability to do both.

Like mirage for example. The power spec is probably the highest burst in the game and appears to be instant. While condi mirage also is a fantastic dps role with more survivability.

They've also mentioned that they want condi to be more sustained damage opposed to burst. A few months ago they made that clear when they adjusted scourge condi damage. They would burst faster than most power specs lol.

I personally only play power. When the game launched there was only a few condi specs and the meta for dps was power. I'm stuck in my ways and dont want to regear and relearn a condi spec.

@saerni.2584 said:“Could.”

TBH i actually am willing to believe those 40 stacks poison because i remember that i used to be able to drop 35-ish in a astandard pve world even on veteran squishies, (which would squish them immediately) but nowadays i can get hardly beyond 25 if i wouldnt drop some poison fields at start and mid fight (if the drop for stolen skill) i cant really tell if condis are doing more or less dmg as they used to i mean one condi per one stack but the lack of stacks definitelly aches me bad as a condi DD.As far as DE goes i really dont like that elite but i simply have to deal with it i guess, to be honest condi DE back before patch was imo as efficient as the condi DD is now. On golem i am not able to get over 26 k which is terrible. Yes it is true that i start at 25 and wont go under taht all fight no matter how hard i screw up rotation but that is still horrible, DE's are the best dps for raids and fracs atm they can beat a damn guardian (cant recall the name of elite) over dps on many bosses. And when you come to a group and they have already experienced that (which is increasing number even this moment) they will want you to go DE and you will be simply forced either to leave or to get yourself new armor set learn new rotation etc... and that not only costs time and money but also it might not be what you want to do.And please dont argument with ''so just go play druid or mesmer those will never be refused in raids'' if i wanted to play those i would even enter there with a thief.The point is that condi used to be better on thief and then it got to the very borderline just above revenant (who everyone made fun of) now i believe it is even less and after a while ppl will notice and then ppl like me will not be able to play or at least play what they want.In pvp condi Dd is still kind of okay but even there if a DE is on the map you have hard life. You have to find him and kill him before he targets or notices you, yes it is true they are easy killable but there is no place for mistakes at that point and often it costs you a defeat and then you can go nuts just over some DE who is sitting on some elevated platform where you cant steal to and camps you off.The point is okay lets have DE yes cool lets have him power cool, but please dont drop off DD and especially not condi DD.Every day i meet with ppl who ask me ''condi? Why? just go power'' but i dont want to go power condi is a great game style and is exactly what i loved on this game from start. and there is surely many more ppl like this. That is why i keep asking if there will be some buff for condi DD's because we could use some.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@saerni.2584 said:“Could.”

TBH i actually am willing to believe those 40 stacks poison because i remember that i used to be able to drop 35-ish in a astandard pve world even on veteran squishies, (which would squish them immediately) but nowadays i can get hardly beyond 25 if i wouldnt drop some poison fields at start and mid fight (if the drop for stolen skill) i cant really tell if condis are doing more or less dmg as they used to i mean one condi per one stack but the lack of stacks definitelly aches me bad as a condi DD.As far as DE goes i really dont like that elite but i simply have to deal with it i guess, to be honest condi DE back before patch was imo as efficient as the condi DD is now. On golem i am not able to get over 26 k which is terrible. Yes it is true that i start at 25 and wont go under taht all fight no matter how hard i screw up rotation but that is still horrible, DE's are the best dps for raids and fracs atm they can beat a kitten guardian (cant recall the name of elite) over dps on many bosses. And when you come to a group and they have already experienced that (which is increasing number even this moment) they will want you to go DE and you will be simply forced either to leave or to get yourself new armor set learn new rotation etc... and that not only costs time and money but also it might not be what you want to do.And please dont argument with ''so just go play druid or mesmer those will never be refused in raids'' if i wanted to play those i would even enter there with a thief.The point is that condi used to be better on thief and then it got to the very borderline just above revenant (who everyone made fun of) now i believe it is even less and after a while ppl will notice and then ppl like me will not be able to play or at least play what they want.In pvp condi Dd is still kind of okay but even there if a DE is on the map you have hard life. You have to find him and kill him before he targets or notices you, yes it is true they are easy killable but there is no place for mistakes at that point and often it costs you a defeat and then you can go nuts just over some DE who is sitting on some elevated platform where you cant steal to and camps you off.The point is okay lets have DE yes cool lets have him power cool, but please dont drop off DD and especially not condi DD.Every day i meet with ppl who ask me ''condi? Why? just go power'' but i dont want to go power condi is a great game style and is exactly what i loved on this game from start. and there is surely many more ppl like this. That is why i keep asking if there will be some buff for condi DD's because we could use some.

I’m talking about condi DE not condi DD.

Certain condi DD builds were nerfed in recent patches. I don’t dispute that. I prefer condi DE for a P/D thief but I don’t disagree that condi DD is probably better for S/D.

I also have taken no position on the need to buff certain aspects of condi DD. I did previously say, in another thread, that I thought just shaving down the Swindler’s Equilibrium would address many issues (core and some DD - S/D condi) so I didn’t think other condi related nerfs were appropriate (generally or specifically for DD).

I’d say that the Potent Poison nerf and Impaling Lotus nerf weren’t necessary because the spike from double steal was a large part of the burst people were complaining about. Adding in other nerfs, including a minor reduction in IL’s bleed duration, was simply unneeded.

Obviously, Potent Poison’s nerf affects condi DE. It’s just that other buffs outweigh the nerfs for a total net buff. I’d like it reverted but I’m not going to say I’m weaker now that I have a usable trait in Payback that I didn’t have before.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I would just like to ask @Gaile Gray.6029 since from what i saw i think she is the head of all these threads so prolly knows what and how will happen = Will thieves elites ever go in clearly Condi Dmg way? (Sort of like Berserker for warior did) (not necesserally the next one just someday in future)Thanks for the answer if i get it.

Based on my experience on how they give answers, they never say anything definitive since the last time they did it, they have to chew a lot of those words (e.g. GW2 Manifesto). As I've said, they did say, I think Gaile did, that they are testing possible build in all game modes, which we can assume it includes Condi Damage based Elites. That's the closest answer we'll get about that.

If their past action is of any indication, they gave use an agile Elite spec Daredevil after nerfing Acrobatics. Seeing that they just nerfed Potent Poison and changed other condition damage related Core traits, they may be testing out a Condi Damage based Elite spec. Obviously, this is just a speculation.

@saerni.2584 said:“Could.”

In practice, I find that the patch 1.0 AoE potential of stolen skills was less impactful than is being suggested. I’d also suggest that the 40 Poison you cited is either exaggerated or requires the target to sit in a poison field for the full duration and not move/defend. That’s not realistic.

As a practical matter the stronger skills are ones that hit reliably and let the DE sustain the momentum to keep being dangerous with conditions. In that sense, DE sustain got much better in the 2.5 patch. So did several cantrips like Mercy and MR. So the end result is a buff compared to patch 2.0. I’m not sure it’s fair to compare to v1.0 when so much has changed to fundamental specialization mechanics (malice).

Condi DE was functional in v2.0. It got overall better in 2.5. There were some nerfs but also several buffs.

Take Mercy and Payback. Each kill reduces the cooldown by at least 6 seconds (10 in pvp). So you get double mark application back really fast. This is good for DE given the base poison on the mark. Then you add in Binding Shadow which also returns very quick for huge CC and vuln and damage. Then you add in faster healing and more elite skill use. Those can both either increase sustain or damage significantly—or both.

For P/d and WvW.

WvW payback reward becomes very noticeable in group fights. When Venoms etc went on cooldown prior you had to wait 30 seconds to get them back. In a group fight if you rotate your marks well (mark the guy that gonna die) you can get things off cooldown at an exponential rate. Potent Poison was really the only real nerf to DE P/d condi.

Uncatchable took a minor hit but I never really used it much in P/D as most of the fight at range.

Take P/d into a larger fight where you share at least one venom and you can easily get multitple cooldwn reductions on every skill. Passing out 6 stacks of poison every 10 seconds to 5 different people rather then every 30 seconds is huge.

It certainly not AS noticeable in a 1v1 but if you are in outnumbered situation (1v3) getting things off cooldown faster is a boost.

Prior to changes when I was flipping camps I would on occasion be caught with utilties on cooldown as enemy entered the same putting me behind the 8 ball. A guard you marked suddenly dropping and those earlier usages of those same utilities can put you back in the fight.. The stealth on stolen item also means more defenses via stealth and more sneak attacks. Traiting up Improv gives two more INI and utility free stealths , netting at least 12 bleed stacks if they hit.

While I never did s/d an attack from stealth with that set will net 10 stacks vuln which eats away a huge chunk of Potent poison loss and more given ALL conditions applied benefit off that Vuln. In S/d this means Binding Shadow for Vuln can be used to complement this damage (wherein you easily get to 25 stacks) or another utility can be slotted in. The Endurance add on full malice is a full extra dodge.

d/d condition did not fare as well given its stealth attack is power related. That said due to there being no Immobs to take advantage of Immob poison stacking it leaned much more heavily on the venoms for Poison adds which gain come off cooldown faster if you can make a kill.

While I do not PvP I supsect that just due to the overall numbers and the role of the thief, Payback does not show as great a benefit. In WvW however, its added benefits are very noticeable.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:“Could.”

In practice, I find that the patch 1.0 AoE potential of stolen skills was less impactful than is being suggested. I’d also suggest that the 40 Poison you cited is either exaggerated or requires the target to sit in a poison field for the full duration and not move/defend. That’s not realistic.

As a practical matter the stronger skills are ones that hit reliably and let the DE sustain the momentum to keep being dangerous with conditions. In that sense, DE sustain got much better in the 2.5 patch. So did several cantrips like Mercy and MR. So the end result is a buff compared to patch 2.0. I’m not sure it’s fair to compare to v1.0 when so much has changed to fundamental specialization mechanics (malice).

Condi DE was functional in v2.0. It got overall better in 2.5. There were some nerfs but also several buffs.

Take Mercy and Payback. Each kill reduces the cooldown by at least 6 seconds (10 in pvp). So you get double mark application back really fast. This is good for DE given the base poison on the mark. Then you add in Binding Shadow which also returns very quick for huge CC and vuln and damage. Then you add in faster healing and more elite skill use. Those can both either increase sustain or damage significantly—or both.

As to pvp, if a thief rotates from a +1 into another fight the cooldown reduction is pretty significant. You can imagine a fight where you make the kill 2v1 and then you are fresher to jump into another fight sooner.

As far as mobility as well you can burn moves like Shadowstep and count on getting it back much faster to rotate if you help snowball the team fight.

Overall, Payback makes a non-rifle DE much stronger because, if you weren’t using rifle for stealth, the mid trait selection was lackluster prior to patch 2.5.

@saerni.2584 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

from my experience if we talk pvp now there are only two types of DE in there rifle and pistol pistol i havent yet seen any d/p or d/d De in a single match i played and i am focusing down thieves in game so they dont cap my points.Shadowstep is nice yes but only in case your enemy follows you. For example i dont i stay on point and hide myself from line of sight so he cant shoot. he will have to move and after he attacks again i steal to him and he in panic uses the shadowstep again.I staelth and he is all out of shadowstep and also i am alraedy getting advantage because he has a few condis on himself i droped when i stole to himThe payback works for you only if you manage to kill your opponent. If your opponent fights smartly tho you wont kill him and get downed and dead. Payback also wont work for you in raids. And also it will not work for you if you fight alone because you dont have to be able to kill your enemy and thus wont get the recharge

Well I expect you to actually get kills. The slight nerf to Potent Poison shouldn’t hurt you much in that regard. First, P/D is more using torment for its damage. Second, several condi p/d builds don’t even take it because of what improv can do. Your time to kill should be roughly the same but your sustain should be better for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.

Also, I make no claims about raid builds. I suspect I’d build very differently in a raid format.

@"saerni.2584" said:Well I expect you to actually get kills. The slight nerf to Potent Poison shouldn’t hurt you much in that regard. First, P/D is more using torment for its damage. Second, several condi p/d builds don’t even take it because of what improv can do. Your time to kill should be roughly the same but your sustain should be better for the reasons I’ve already mentioned.

Also, I make no claims about raid builds. I suspect I’d build very differently in a raid format.

IN WvW I managed to laod up 33 stacks of torment against one poor Revenant and this without using venom share or using the torment source in the TR line. Group fight potential has went up and it my feeling this a significant add to the ability of a thief to help a group. I linked up with one last night about 15 strong that was battling like sized groups and this turned out to be an excellent Petri dish for testing if you would given one series of engagements happened over and over again near spawn of one groups BL meaning it was pretty well the same size and tactics used.

I deliberately "withheld services" in some of the fights and then used Venom Share on every pack and push and the differences were very noticeable and especially when the mark downed and I applied further venom loads. This was using just Spider venom and Skale on the bar. When making the KILL in a group fight fuels that payback reset time, it not as important you get full 5 man shares after battle starts and thr group starts to disperse.

If the situation arises again I am going to try and measure how much better I do using those same two venoms with Leeching traited over Hidden. This should add signficant heals plus those lower cooldowns from a 24 second base albeit at th ecost sof that added speed in stealth and those extra stealths.

@saerni.2584 said:i really dont think p/d would withstand in pvp. You would not get kills you would get killed. maybe in wvw it is possible as @babazhook.6805 mentioned but in 1v1 maybe 2v2 i dont see it as viable

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@saerni.2584 said:i really dont think p/d would withstand in pvp. You would not get kills you would get killed. maybe in wvw it is possible as @babazhook.6805 mentioned but in 1v1 maybe 2v2 i dont see it as viable

I’ve been using p/d in pvp and it’s viable. I haven’t gotten a chance to play since my computer broke so I haven’t been able to play around post patch. But I can say it was viable in v2.0 and the 2.5 patch was a net buff on paper.

Give it a try and I’ll be happy to demonstrate in game sometime next week/end when I get my replacement parts.