Elder Dragon Wakefulness Questions

The truth may be out there, but a couple of quick searches didn't reveal it, so...

How long are Elder Dragons typically awake and active? Precluding being killed or put back to sleep prematurely by meddling mortals, of course.

What would happen if they went unopposed?

Would they go back to sleep sooner if, instead of fighting against them, the mortal races helped them fill their tummies with nummy magic? Or...

Is resistance against the Elder Dragons is as much a part of the natural order of things as the Elder Dragons themselves?

Bonus: Which came first, the dragons or their eggs?

In order

• The only thing we know is that elder dragons remain awaken as long as there is magic to devour. Considering how long Primordius has been active and the age of the creatures, we're probably talking of centuries.
• If there are unopposed, they devour all the magic of the world. Which also probably implies killing a lot of beings manipulating or posessing magic. Problem is, magic seems nécessary to life and precedent of activities of elder dragons wipe out entire species. Ancient races only survived because of Glint and the magic hidden in the bloodstone. If we don't counter them, the five races will probably survives as group of survivors in a devastated world, but the civilisations would be gonand will never came back the same. That is what we defend
• As mentionned above, if they are satieted, civilisation is doomed
• I don't think so. Elders dragons ARE the natural order. You can claim instinct of survival is natural but in that case, it goes totally against the order. The problem is, the races of Tyria, just like humanity in the real world, have reached a point where their knowledge allow them to defeat the forces of nature. But it doesn't means it's benefical in the global scheme
• The eggs

@"Tachenon.5270" said:

How long are Elder Dragons typically awake and active? Precluding being killed or put back to sleep prematurely by meddling mortals, of course.We don't know. Events from the previous rise have been dated around both 10,000 BE and almost 2000 BE, so there's a very loose case that could be made for eight thousand years, but beyond that we have no way of knowing.What would happen if they went unopposed?

Supposedly, they would consume magic, and the civilizations possessing said magic, until there's next to nothing left. The only other cycle we know anything about did have several races survive, but it also had two extraordinary events- a dragon champion switching sides and hiding several of the remaining civilizations, and the remaining magic in the world being sealed away and hidden before the dragons could finish feeding on it. Without those factors, the scholars of Tyria seem to believe that no records would've survived.Would they go back to sleep sooner if, instead of fighting against them, the mortal races helped them fill their tummies with nummy magic? Or...Unlikely. As best we can tell, Kralkatorrik is currently holding more magic than any Elder Dragon has before, so it doesn't seem like they can get full. Our best theory at present is that they go into hibernation when they can't find anything more to eat.Is resistance against the Elder Dragons is as much a part of the natural order of things as the Elder Dragons themselves?Also somewhat unclear, but we have been told that magic is somehow intrinsically linked to intelligent life, which implies that the Dragons might continue to target civilizations for so long as they exist. If that's the case, peaceful coexistence would be impossible.

In regard to magic -- do we know the source of it? Is there a fixed amount of it in Tyria, being continually regulated by the dragons and/or other beings, or is more being produced somehow, or perhaps being introduced from elsewhere? Heh, maybe the dragons are the equivalent of Tyria's lungs. Breathe in the good magic, breathe out the bad. Or vice versa.

We do not, but considering all the portals and rifts and revenant shenanigans, it's a good chance that there's some kind of flow or exchange going on with the Mists. In fact, if memory serves, during S1 the devs suggested that Tyria's ley lines extend into the Mists.

@"Tachenon.5270" said:

Would they go back to sleep sooner if, instead of fighting against them, the mortal races helped them fill their tummies with nummy magic? Or...

Besides the answers already given, I'll quote a certain diaologue from Ogden said in Hidden Arcana on LS2: "Magic is life. Without life, there is no magic. The lair has lain empty for several years. It may have been triggered by your life essence...." Elder Dragons consume all magic, and life itself, at least on Tyria, is a form of magic, because of that it would be something the dragons would go after, so, even without any magical artifact or civilizations, if there are living beings on tyria, the Elder Dragons will try to consume them until there is none left (or until they can't find any more living beings around, at least).

@"Tachenon.5270" said:In regard to magic -- do we know the source of it? Is there a fixed amount of it in Tyria, being continually regulated by the dragons and/or other beings, or is more being produced somehow, or perhaps being introduced from elsewhere? Heh, maybe the dragons are the equivalent of Tyria's lungs. Breathe in the good magic, breathe out the bad. Or vice versa.We do know that the ambient magic has been going down since the dragons arose, so it presumably is a finite amount. We don't really know if there's a downside to there being too much ambient magic, like having too much oxygen or carbon dioxide is bad for animals, so the lungs analogy might not be that apt. Also, it's not so much that magic is good or evil, but used by good or evil people. I'm still a bit confused on how much absorbed magic retains its original quality. E.g., people keep saying that Kralkatorrik has Primordus and Jormag magic because Balthazar absorbed some of each, but maybe the magic transmuted into "Balthazar" magic while he had it. It's all very vague and hand-waved.

@Rognik.2579 said:

@"Tachenon.5270" said:In regard to magic -- do we know the source of it? Is there a fixed amount of it in Tyria, being continually regulated by the dragons and/or other beings, or is more being produced somehow, or perhaps being introduced from elsewhere? Heh, maybe the dragons are the equivalent of Tyria's lungs. Breathe in the good magic, breathe out the bad. Or vice versa.We do know that the ambient magic has been going down since the dragons arose, so it presumably is a finite amount. We don't really know if there's a downside to there being too much ambient magic, like having too much oxygen or carbon dioxide is bad for animals, so the lungs analogy might not be that apt. Also, it's not so much that magic is good or evil, but used by good or evil people. I'm still a bit confused on how much absorbed magic retains its original quality. E.g., people keep saying that Kralkatorrik has Primordus and Jormag magic because Balthazar absorbed some of each, but maybe the magic transmuted into "Balthazar" magic while he had it. It's all very vague and hand-waved.

I'd say it is not to differ Magic by the last entity who possessed it but into the the Kind of Magic it is.we know two different forms of Magic from what i know (u may add if i miss something) thats:

1. Tyrian Magic - bound by the ever repeating cycle of the ED. Some of it was stored away into the bloodstones but ist all Tyrian source
2. Devine Magic - The Magic the Six Possess wich seems to be conradicting to tyrian Magic in some ways cuz it got some flashy effects on creatures created from the entitys regulating the tyrian Magic cycle and cant be contained in the same vessel safely (while we cant be sure abouut this one)

So with that in mind we can assume that the Quality of Magic always stay the same - Tyrian Magicso Kralk absorbed a lot of Tyrian Magic after Balthasar ceased to exist (he did not really die cuz he were not really alive.. <- thats some really confusing stuff ;P) who had absorbed a lot of Tyrian Magic from Different sources so it was not really balth Magic

assuming the contradictionary of the 2 sorts of Magic is true, the only reason balth was able to absorb those Magic (either the one from the bloodstone AND those from the Dragons) is, because the other six Stripped him from his Devinity(and with that a lot of his power)so this leads to the conclusion, that balthasar would have never been able to empower himself with Dragon Magic if the Six would not had shackled him the way they did while at the same time allowed him to enter the tyrian cycle of Magic wich would naturally lead into a devastating end

thats because the Dragons now were able to feast on balthasar and their hunger for Magicassuming balth would have stayed hidden without going rampage the Dragons would still have consumed as much Magic as possible and destroyed life during this process until only balthasar were left wich would lead the ED to him Automatically and he would HAVE to fight them and propably lose while damaging the planet greatly bevor the cycle can startall over again

im not sure about how the aspect/spheres of the Dragons are transmitted but it is propably more bout it than just "steal some Magic of him an u steal his sphere too"

@Rognik.2579 said:

We don't really know if there's a downside to there being too much ambient magic, like having too much oxygen or carbon dioxide is bad for animals, so the lungs analogy might not be that apt.

If we're going with an air analogy, it's more like smog- most days are fine, and it's not the long-term average that's causing harm, but the brief period where concentration spikes for a while, causing ley anomalies and the ley-crazed bounties. As things get worse, those periods will become more severe and more frequent, and they'll likely cause lasting damage long before the average itself rises into harmful ranges.

@Rognik.2579 said:

@"Tachenon.5270" said:In regard to magic -- do we know the source of it? Is there a fixed amount of it in Tyria, being continually regulated by the dragons and/or other beings, or is more being produced somehow, or perhaps being introduced from elsewhere? Heh, maybe the dragons are the equivalent of Tyria's lungs. Breathe in the good magic, breathe out the bad. Or vice versa.We do know that the ambient magic has been going down since the dragons arose, so it presumably is a finite amount. We don't really know if there's a downside to there being too much ambient magic, like having too much oxygen or carbon dioxide is bad for animals, so the lungs analogy might not be that apt. Also, it's not so much that magic is good or evil, but used by good or evil people. I'm still a bit confused on how much absorbed magic retains its original quality. E.g., people keep saying that Kralkatorrik has Primordus and Jormag magic because Balthazar absorbed some of each, but maybe the magic transmuted into "Balthazar" magic while he had it. It's all very vague and hand-waved.

Regarding too much magic, we do see what happens with such. On a smaller scale we get things like ley line anomalies but on a larger we get things like Thaumanova fallout and Bloodstone Fen. As Ogden said in Hidden Arcana, too mjch magic and the world spins out of control, too little and it withers and dies.

Regarding changing magic... It's possible given that Balthazar never really user anything but his own magic, however at the same time, that would mean Elder Dragons shoulsnt be able yo use other typea of magic either (e.g., the Zhaitan magic Kralkatorrik ate would no longer be Zhaitan magic but become Kralkatorrik magic).

@"norbes.3620" said:I'd say it is not to differ Magic by the last entity who possessed it but into the the Kind of Magic it is.we know two different forms of Magic from what i know (u may add if i miss something) thats:

1. Tyrian Magic - bound by the ever repeating cycle of the ED. Some of it was stored away into the bloodstones but ist all Tyrian source
2. Devine Magic - The Magic the Six Possess wich seems to be conradicting to tyrian Magic in some ways cuz it got some flashy effects on creatures created from the entitys regulating the tyrian Magic cycle and cant be contained in the same vessel safely (while we cant be sure abouut this one)

Three types on the most general of scales. Per Cosmic Power of Astralaria collections:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cosmic_Power

This divides magic into three pieces: Dragon Magic, Ley Line Magic, and Mists Magic.

For the purpose of tbe collection we only see thosr three divided into four pieces which are combined in thr mystic forge but...

• Dragon magic is then divided into the four most active (as of the collection addition) ED both living and dead: Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik. We can presumably add in Primordus and the DSD too.
• Ley Line Magic is divided into three items obtained from ley line hubs and, curiously' Exalted Energy.
• Mists Magic is divided into Jade Wind, Foefire, Temple kf the Ages, and Tomb of tbe Primeval Kings. The latter two are locations with portals jngo the Mists. The former two are both magical events caused by magic from the Six Gods.

@"norbes.3620" said:thats because the Dragons now were able to feast on balthasar and their hunger for Magic

Curious thing about this. Balthazar was able to go through an army of destroyers and stand in front of Primordus long enough to set up three barriers and set up the machine while the Commander talked to M.O.X. and free four elder druids and bash through the first two barriers before turning on that machine.

This suggests that the nature of Balthazar might allow him to not be capable of just being eaten up like Aurene did to Joko with the whole "one chomp and burst of magic and Joko stops moving" thing.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"norbes.3620" said:thats because the Dragons now were able to feast on balthasar and their hunger for Magic

even without his divinity balth was still a powerful entity of fire and war wich may have helped him against the destroyers. he did not attack the dragon (from what we know) to gain his attention until he started the machine that weakened primadonna into some kind of trance. we know that ED are most of time ignorant to the "lesser" beings in the world or to anything else except emselfs. fair mordremoth was a bit different to some point cuz he meddled a lot with peoples minds but that still was sto satisfy his hunger and can be excused with the domain of mind.

so its possible that balth was just strong enough to break through those destroyers and just set up the platform and machine befor primadonna even cared he was there

The Elder Dragons arent ignorant of lesser beings but uncaring in large. But they dont ignore them when they're right in front. Kralkatorrik didn't. Neither did Jormag if the skaald tales are to be believed.

Especially if one has the magic of a blast that would have engulfed half the continent.

Balthazar was basically a buttered roast sitting right in front of an ever-hungry Primordus' nostrils. Does it make any sense for Primordus to ignore that?

The trump of balthazar is that although he is no longer a god, he remained with the ability to manipulate / shape magic at at his will. The absorption of Bloodstone by itself is remarkable since it is highly unstable and small amounts is enough to corrupt (or make them "crazy") their hosts, Balthazar absorbed it completely unharmed..

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The Elder Dragons arent ignorant of lesser beings but uncaring in large. But they dont ignore them when they're right in front. Kralkatorrik didn't. Neither did Jormag if the skaald tales are to be believed.

Especially if one has the magic of a blast that would have engulfed half the continent.

Balthazar was basically a buttered roast sitting right in front of an ever-hungry Primordus' nostrils. Does it make any sense for Primordus to ignore that?

I theorize that balthazar has the ability to camouflage / hide his magic to pass undetected.or perhaps even, because of its fire-bound nature, has confused the destroyers and the elder dragon, functioning as a "camouflage".

EDIT: yeah, without a good excuse, its weird, a powerful being like primordus, doesnt just wiped out him easily.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The Elder Dragons arent ignorant of lesser beings but uncaring in large. But they dont ignore them when they're right in front. Kralkatorrik didn't. Neither did Jormag if the skaald tales are to be believed.

Especially if one has the magic of a blast that would have engulfed half the continent.

Balthazar was basically a buttered roast sitting right in front of an ever-hungry Primordus' nostrils. Does it make any sense for Primordus to ignore that?

Perhaps Primordus didn’t notice Balthazar because he was feasting on the magic or was more focused on the still abundant ley line energy under the fire islands.

still possible that it was a good time to enter that place cuz primordus always takes a Little nap that time of the day. we will propably never know how the typical day for an elder Dragon Looks like8:00-13:00 gulp down Magic13:00-15:00 take a nice nap15:00-22:00 poop out some minnions22:00 -8:00 Netflix

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Regarding changing magic... It's possible given that Balthazar never really user anything but his own magic, however at the same time, that would mean Elder Dragons shoulsnt be able yo use other typea of magic either (e.g., the Zhaitan magic Kralkatorrik ate would no longer be Zhaitan magic but become Kralkatorrik magic).

Maybe this has less to do with the Magic and more about the dragons themselves. Zhaitan was atleast 10,000 years old, where Balthazar was only a little over 1/10th of that, maybe 1/5th at the most. And if we judge by size(not sure whether this is valid), Kralkatorrik is several times older than Zhaitan. That's a whole lot of time to learn magic.

Or who knows, maybe Balthazar just preferred his own magic.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Regarding changing magic... It's possible given that Balthazar never really user anything but his own magic, however at the same time, that would mean Elder Dragons shoulsnt be able yo use other typea of magic either (e.g., the Zhaitan magic Kralkatorrik ate would no longer be Zhaitan magic but become Kralkatorrik magic).

Or the dragon’s can just make use of the abilities of other dragon’s while the gods can’t use the abilities themselves. Perhaps they use the magic as a power up to their own natural abilities.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Regarding changing magic... It's possible given that Balthazar never really user anything but his own magic, however at the same time, that would mean Elder Dragons shoulsnt be able yo use other typea of magic either (e.g., the Zhaitan magic Kralkatorrik ate would no longer be Zhaitan magic but become Kralkatorrik magic).

This feels like the likeliest answer, but I think from another angle.

We know the gods come from another world, right? And there does seem to be an incompatibility between divine magic and tyrian magic. So what if that's the barrier?

What if the magic that Balthazar had within him was stored like a battery and, similar to the chak organ, Balthazar filtered that magic into pure power for his abilities because he couldn't use the magic as is? And then when Balthazar dies, he releases that magic back into the world in it's original form, since he only had to convert what he needed for immediate use.

It's a reach and there's probably a few holes in there, but it would justify why kralk and aurene could gobble up the magical explosion balthazar released while explaining why he didn't use magic other than his own.

Or Balthazar simply preferred to shape the magic into fire, like, that's always a possibility.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"Tachenon.5270" said:

Would they go back to sleep sooner if, instead of fighting against them, the mortal races helped them fill their tummies with nummy magic? Or...Unlikely. As best we can tell, Kralkatorrik is currently holding more magic than any Elder Dragon has before, so it doesn't seem like they can get full. Our best theory at present is that they go into hibernation when they can't find anything more to eat.

What if...

For the first time in his existence Kralkatorrik is not quite so preoccupied with chowing down on his next happy meal that he has had a moment to ponder why the toy in his last happy meal came to his defense. Like, ya know, what if what had prevented Horton from hearing that Who had been the constant rumbling of his empty tummy, but now, momentarily sated, he's all like, "I can't believe I ate that whole -- wait, what was that?"

I would think that of all Elder Dragons, Kralkatorrik and Primordus are the least likely to ever be capable of sympathizing or co-existing with mortals, and Jormag (and, formerly, Zhaitan) would be the most capable.

If we look at the behavior and words of their minions, their preferred subjects and methods of corruption, and in the few limited cases we have it, their own words or thoughts, then each Elder Dragon has their own goal and personality:

• Zhaitan sought to rule an eternal kingdom where no one "dies" and friends and families are never torn apart through death.
• Jormag seeks a world where "survival of the fittest" is law, and doesn't care whether or not those who survive through strength are his minions or not.
• Kralkatorrik is often made out to be unlimited greed personified, seeking to obtain everything he can and destroying the rest.
• Mordremoth made out to be desiring to replace the world itself, to be the sustainer of all life.
• Primordus seems to seek out complete and utter genocide of life.And naturally, the DSD remains unknown.

Based on this, it would take a grand re-evaluation of Kralkatorrik's own life (and others) to view the world he doesn't own as worth keeping around. And I just don't see that happening unless he gets one hell of a massive power reduction, rather than a massive power boost. Because a power boost is effectively his primary means to obtain his true goal (presuming the above correlations are correct).