Joko's speech at the end of Be My Guest - are we supposed to feel bad? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Joko's speech at the end of Be My Guest - are we supposed to feel bad?

Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 18, 2018 in Lore

There will obviously be spoilers for the latest episode, skip this topic if you want to avoid them.

At the end of Be My Guest when the cutscene starts Joko says "The rumors of my immortality are drastically...understated. Oh, Commander, you look so disappointed. So impotent. I feel for you, I really do. But let's be honest: you knew, in your heart. Fear not, the world will not forget you. The scars you've gouged into it spell out your name for all to see. I confess, I was happy to take credit for your "victories." But did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you? That so many bought what I was selling? They call me a monster and you a hero. The world expects Palawa Joko to dare to throw reality into chaos. But surely no mortal would be so monumentally STUPID as to destroy a dragon, the life force of this world. Let alone two. And a god to boot? Perhaps they will finally thank me for luring you to me...So that I. May save the world. From you. Once you're gone, everyone will flock to my embrace. They will all love ME— Palawa Ignacious Joko!" And later Braham agrees that the player character and Dragon's Watch do tend to cause chaos.

My first impression is that's something the PC and the player is supposed to feel bad about, but that definitely wasn't my reaction.

Firstly Joko's being a bit dishonest there - the people he's feeding his propaganda to don't call him a monster or expect him to "throw reality into chaos" - that's the people outside Elona who still see him as a vicious dictator who conquered 3 nations by force. The people within Elona, even the rebels, think the exact opposite: that he united Elona and brought order and safety. And they think that precisely because of his propaganda.

Secondly it's not like anyone was crying out for us to spare the dragons. Killing them isn't a decision the PC made on their own, and they weren't even the first to suggest it. All the nations of Tyria (the continent, not the whole world) were represented in the Pact and allied with it, they all supported the goal of killing the dragons, because they all thought it was the only option. And the Elonian's who believed Joko when he took credit for it thought the same - that by doing it he was keeping them safe. It's only after they died we found out it was a bad idea.

But also I don't see chaos as necessarily a bad thing (maybe because my introduction to RPGs was old-school DnD games, starting with Eye of the Beholder, and I've always picked Chaotic Good for my main character) and in the entire time I've been playing this game it's never once occurred to me that bringing order to Tyria, or even averting chaos, was what we were trying to achieve. Most of the time we don't even get enough breathing room to take a step back from "Someone has to stop this now or the world will be destroyed", we certainly don't get to start thinking about what the world should be like instead and I don't think it's the PCs place to decide that.

But on the other hand I'm not sure if this is just me trying to rationalise it - a more complicated form of "No, I'm not the villain - you're the villain Joko!" so I'd be interested to know what other people thought about that part of the ending. Or if I'm just massively over-thinking it by even starting this topic.

"You can run like a river, Till you end up in the sea,
And you run till night is black, And keep on going in your dreams,
And you know all the long while, It's the journey that you seek,
It's the miles of moving forward, With the wind beneath your wings."

<13

Comments

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭

    Joko trying to get into your head. Nothing more. It is curious how he also knows destroying dragons is a bad thing when the rest of the world outside of Dragons Watch still sees killing them as a good thing.

    Up until Braham cooled down he was still on the kill all the dragons train of thought himself. So Joko's rant actually served as a reminder to the fact that we should let up on killing them until we plan out replacements for their parts in the world cycle.

    He shouldn't have been privy to that though and it's curious he'd want to sell himself as someone killing dragons when he knows it's not a good thing to do. We'll never know now why he knows that.

    It lends credence to the theory Joko was even older than his claims to being a primeval king.

    But of course it's Joko. Nothing he says can be trusted without being verified. He could have picked up some of that info from all the Inquest he'd been awakening.

  • Tachenon.5270Tachenon.5270 Member ✭✭✭

    I took it as Joko indulging himself in a little post-victory knife twisting.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    It WAS meant to make you feel bad, it was meant to make you realize that he knows exactly how damaging what we've done is [when even we barely knew of it].

    He's not being dishonest at all. People expect him to be a force of nature, obliterating his enemies and doing untold horror. This is why he tells you that, when he started to tell people that HE killed the Dragons and a God, they all believed and feared him more; because such horrible things like taking down an almighty Elder Dragon that just so happens to be the reason why Tyria isn't a maelstrom of death and magic and killing one of the Six Human Gods is so believable.

    Even though we've done it for the right reasons, we HAVE brought untold chaos into the world by nearly ripping it at the seems from the death of two Elder Dragons and now a God.

  • Edelweiss.4261Edelweiss.4261 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency?
    If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity?

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    One of the developers spoke to this at the recent AMA. My paraphrase of the response was: for story telling purposes, we need to get the player to rethink the game plan. We needed it to be someone who the commander would have to listen to and yet might be inclined to ignore. Someone who could make the commander question their past actions.

    So if I understood correctly, the OP's reaction is exactly what the writing team wanted to happen. Should we feel bad? Should we dismiss it as "Joko just messing with our head?" Even if Joko's spin is wrong, maybe killing the elder dragons isn't the right thing to do. Maybe we did make things worse.

    So that (again, assuming I understood correctly), we will be well marinated by the time LS4.4 comes along and ready for the next crisis.

    In my opinion, the paraphrasing misses the subtext.
    Here's the most relevant quote from the AMA:

    When it came to how to handle his exit, we had to decide what we wanted the POINT of the exit to be. And we figured someone needed to articulate the thing that had been bothering a lot of us as writers, which is that there's an argument to be made that the Commander has--with the best of intentions--done a lot of things that actually made the world's situation worse.

    We figured Joko was the right character to say it in a way that the Commander would be tempted to dismiss, but that would get under your skin. He's saying it in the most blame-y way possible, but is the SUBSTANCE of what he's saying wrong?

    Emphasis mine.

    There's an intention of twisting the knife when it comes to what the commander has done, narratively speaking. The exact words aren't true, we aren't solely responsible for the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but we DID kill them and offset the balance of the world. It's far more that simply questioning whether Joko's words are true. Because his words ARE true, to a certain extent.

    If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. Veterans can make signatures apparently.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2018

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency?
    If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity?

    The commander is written in such a way that it's easy for players to step into the mold of the commander. While we didn't have agency with regards to killing the elder dragons, the mold of the commander is the destroyer of dragons and part of that mold is dealing with the consequences of the commander's actions. If you're not stepping into that mold willingly, it's unlikely that Joko's words would have any impact on you as a player.
    Because the words SHOULD make the commander feel bad, feel that knife twisting when Joko blames the commander for something that was not entirely the commander's decision (the pact united as a whole). If you decide to step into the mold of the commander, the commander's feelings become YOUR feelings, which, again, if you don't willingly step into that mold, it won't have that narrative effect on you. And I think a major theme of the commander is resilience. Even in the face of nearly driving the world to calamity, the commander still takes up the mantle of hero and fights to protect everyone, and undo the mistakes or at least as much course correction as possible.

    Essentially, the commander made this mess, the commander is the only one who can fix it.

    If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. Veterans can make signatures apparently.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency?
    If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity?

    ....you do know that our character is ALWAYS, within the lore, the exact same as everyone else, right? So yes, all your characters technically killed the dragons and killed Balthazar.

  • The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'
    I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

    Also, just... I dunno.
    The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing is
    I dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerve
    I think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The speech is the essentially the same as what is often levelled at the Doctor in Doctor Who by enemies and observers alike. Not everyone will bite the bait, but also many of us already are aware of our ambivalent actions and dont care due to enough of a disconnect between us and our character.

    I thought it was well put across though.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615 said:
    The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'
    I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

    Also, just... I dunno.
    The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing is
    I dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerve
    I think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

    Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2018

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615 said:
    The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'
    I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

    Also, just... I dunno.
    The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing is
    I dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerve
    I think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

    Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

    I agree, I have no doubt in my mind that the devs didn't plan this route when GW2 was first released. This was absolutely a sudden swerve to make the story interesting. And each individual will have a different mileage on how effective it was. I think this is a much better direction story wise than what was given initially at launch but the whiplash from the sudden turn still hurts. There's a lot that needs to be reworked to make sense of it all, or even have things just explained in a way that connects all the dots together, and I hope the devs keep an eye on that kind of thing.

    If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. Veterans can make signatures apparently.

  • For Zhaitan there wasn't much choice about what to do. He was sending out more powerful and intelligent undead, attacking Lion's Arch and sending agents as far away as Fireheart Rise. It wasn't really a situation that could be ignored at that point. Unless there was some other option we didn't know about, like a way to put Zhaitan back to sleep, I don't think we could have left Orr without Killing Zhaitan. It's not like we were just going to fly away and call it a day after shooting him out of the sky.

    For Mordremoth, we kind of did have a chance to do something. If we had stopped Scarlet at any point before the breachmaker hit the ley line, Mordremoth may not have fully woken up. Who knows how long he would have stayed dormant. Now, who knows things may have been even worse if he woke up some years later as the perfect combination of factors leading to tyria's strongest heroes getting access to his mind may not have been in place.

    I'm also not sure we could have avoided dealing with Balthazar. Even if we didn't fight Mordremoth, Rytlock was still going to try the Foefire cleansing ritual, fall into the mists, then free him on the way out. Nothing short of Logan letting him die in CoF story mode would prevent that. Now if Mordremoth hadn't woken up, we may not have found Omadd's machine, leading to Taimi's machine never being built. This would mean, a revived Balthazar may not have progressed beyond the power he had as "Lazarus", though if he didn't know about Mordremoth's whereabouts, he'd probably still go after Kralk first, bringing us back to where we are now.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615 said:
    The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'
    I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

    Also, just... I dunno.
    The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing is
    I dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerve
    I think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

    Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

    It's not sudden at all. Some of this stuff has been brought up before, particularly the damage done by the killing of elder dragons.

  • It wasn't really mentioned during season 1, since it seems like the effects of Zhaitan's death were delayed. We were a little busy during S2 and HoT to see any effects if they had manifested by then, so it may have seemed a little out of left field for this plot point to crop up in season 3. I guess just losing one isn't that bad, it's when 1/3 of the dragons are gone that things really go crazy.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Like all good salesman, Joko is very good at mixing truth and lies to create a more plausible lie.

    The real issue here is not what we're supposed to feel, so much as what he was trying to make us feel. Joko was gloating. It's his modus operandi. He's egotistical, and he wants to rub salt in our wounds. As such he borrows from the truth to make his lies less obvious...more plausible.

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    We did kill a god, to stop him from killing an elder dragon that the world couldn't afford to lose. Killing the god saved a dragon, but Joko isn't about to point that out.

    Joko was taunting is, but it was designed to make players think.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2018

    Whole GW2 story of the commander is meant to make you feel bad. Love it, unlike other games where you are the hero and you are right.
    We did what we had to do but that doesn't mean we were right. Check your game story again. Joko just summed it up

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615 said:
    The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'
    I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

    Also, just... I dunno.
    The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing is
    I dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerve
    I think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

    Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

    It's not sudden at all. Some of this stuff has been brought up before, particularly the damage done by the killing of elder dragons.

    Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

    Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

    Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

    There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615 said:
    The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'
    I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

    Also, just... I dunno.
    The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing is
    I dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerve
    I think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

    Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

    It's not sudden at all. Some of this stuff has been brought up before, particularly the damage done by the killing of elder dragons.

    Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then.

    This is a very interesting response. Nothing I said here is defending Anet, because no one is attacking Anet. I find it interesting that you're so absolutely focused on the fact that I have an opinion that's different than yours, that you're willing to attribute it to white-knighting instead of actually listening to what's being said.

    The people in my guild have been discussing the fact that killing the elder dragons is a bad thing for at least a year and a half. The theory has been floating around Tyria since unbound magic began to show up. Those paying attention to side stories and particularly Season 3 of the living world wouldn't have seen this as a swerve at all. It's very hard to be white knighting if you're not defending against an attack, no matter what you might think of my other posts.

    This is one of the strangest posts calling me a white knight I've ever seen.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    One of the developers spoke to this at the recent AMA. My paraphrase of the response was: for story telling purposes, we need to get the player to rethink the game plan. We needed it to be someone who the commander would have to listen to and yet might be inclined to ignore. Someone who could make the commander question their past actions.

    So if I understood correctly, the OP's reaction is exactly what the writing team wanted to happen. Should we feel bad? Should we dismiss it as "Joko just messing with our head?" Even if Joko's spin is wrong, maybe killing the elder dragons isn't the right thing to do. Maybe we did make things worse.

    So that (again, assuming I understood correctly), we will be well marinated by the time LS4.4 comes along and ready for the next crisis.

    To additional dialogues of our campanions at end, really indicates that this will be the new focus. Particularly I think it will be more interesting than going directly try solve Kralkatorrik problem.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615 said:
    The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'
    I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

    Also, just... I dunno.
    The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing is
    I dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerve
    I think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

    Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

    It's not sudden at all. Some of this stuff has been brought up before, particularly the damage done by the killing of elder dragons.

    Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then.

    This is a very interesting response. Nothing I said here is defending Anet, because no one is attacking Anet. I find it interesting that you're so absolutely focused on the fact that I have an opinion that's different than yours, that you're willing to attribute it to white-knighting instead of actually listening to what's being said.

    The people in my guild have been discussing the fact that killing the elder dragons is a bad thing for at least a year and a half. The theory has been floating around Tyria since unbound magic began to show up. Those paying attention to side stories and particularly Season 3 of the living world wouldn't have seen this as a swerve at all. It's very hard to be white knighting if you're not defending against an attack, no matter what you might think of my other posts.

    This is one of the strangest posts calling me a white knight I've ever seen.

    Actually it was suggested much further back then Season 3. I think it was Season 2, going back to Omadd’s Machibe Cinematic, so this isn’t coming out of left field at all.

    One book in the Durmond Priory library said this during season 2:

    “Six large bodies orbit the world, existing in primal symbiosis. The energies move with the push and pull of positive and negative, ever in motion.

    The Apostate says one thing that is especially troubling... "Should the energies become imbalanced, the world will tilt and all beings will fall off it into the void." It's probably a metaphor.”

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

    Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

    There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it.

    .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots.

    Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow?

    I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today.

    Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail.

  • Torolan.5816Torolan.5816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2018

    You can also ask if Joko was so well informed, why didn´t he interfere and stop the killing of Mordremoth? He surely realized that big stuff is going on when the other major player in the reanimation business, Zhaitan, bit the dust. With what that book in the priory says you can even assume that someone as learned as Joko would have already known that even before Zhaitan died, but he probably did welcome the chance to see him go down because one missing dragon is not that severe as consequence a it seems.
    Even if you factor in that his immortality would probably have enabled him to survive as long as an ED would not have hunted him down in person, his kingdom would have been lost. From all accounts it seems that ED are unwilling to cooperate or think in human patterns because they do not accept anything less than total domination and destruction, so he could have not talked his way out.

    Maybe someone at Anet in S2 realized how boring it would be to just do 6 times the same and hunt down dragons, probably someone with experience in dragon stories from Dragonlance ;) .

    Regarding the question of the OP, I do not feel bad. You are constantly fed with wishy washy last minute information from a teenager, your fighting comrades range from former environmental terrorists over AWOL soldiers up to sister murderers who come out with crucial information only after things go down rapidly. The commander is just a battleship swimming around in an ocean of half truths, megalomaniac desire and blatant lies, blindly firing some volleys at this or that island or monster.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

    Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

    There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it.

    .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots.

    Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow?

    I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today.

    Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail.

    No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode.

    The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

    Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

    There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it.

    .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots.

    Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow?

    I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today.

    Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail.

    No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode.

    The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you.

    So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him?

    What? You're somehow saying that we're magically forgetting that he was weakened before we killed him, we've been doing that since we got to Orr by stopping the Eyes and Mouths. That doesn't change the fact that WE kill him, same with Mordremoth and the Pact remnants fighting his physical form.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

    Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

    There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it.

    .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots.

    Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow?

    I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today.

    Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail.

    No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode.

    The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you.

    So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him?

    What?

    We grounded it, shot it out of the air and broke it apart into segments. We literally broke the dragon apart before we killed it with those guns. Just watch the video. We didn't just shoot off it's wings. We actually broke the dragon into smaller sections. That beam was what did the real damage, in my opinion, yes.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

    Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

    There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it.

    .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots.

    Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow?

    I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today.

    Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail.

    No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode.

    The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you.

    So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him?

    What?

    We grounded it, shot it out of the air and broke it apart into segments. We literally broke the dragon apart before we killed it with those guns. Just watch the video. We didn't just shoot off it's wings. We actually broke the dragon into smaller sections. That beam was what did the real damage, in my opinion, yes.

    But it didn't. You tell me to watch the video, yet you clearly didn't.

    At best, we hit the tail. He is still flying, still happily slams into the big cannon and destroys it. It's the barrage from later and those beams that entrap him that actually weaken him enough.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

    Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

    There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it.

    .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots.

    Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow?

    I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today.

    Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail.

    No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode.

    The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you.

    So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him?

    What?

    We grounded it, shot it out of the air and broke it apart into segments. We literally broke the dragon apart before we killed it with those guns. Just watch the video. We didn't just shoot off it's wings. We actually broke the dragon into smaller sections. That beam was what did the real damage, in my opinion, yes.

    But it didn't. You tell me to watch the video, yet you clearly didn't.

    At best, we hit the tail. He is still flying, still happily slams into the big cannon and destroys it. It's the barrage from later and those beams that entrap him that actually weaken him enough.

    Sure, but we didn't fire that barrage, that's the point. We finish him off after. I didn't fire anything to get it hurt enough to have to land. The video backs me up. We didn't do the most damage.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then.

    Really? Why exactly we stopped Balthazar to kill 2 elder dragons in LW3?

    I dream of elves in GW2.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    According to MO the entire story was already outlined before they even started working on GW2, and they've been following that outline ever since...so I highly doubt if anything we've done is a curve thrown in to the story, it's all been pre-planned(otherwise some people would not have been able to guess the direction the story was going in if it was so transparent and malleable).

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then.

    Really? Why exactly we stopped Balthazar to kill 2 elder dragons in LW3?

    That's exactly the "then" mate.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ephemiel.5694 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

    With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

    We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

    I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

    And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

    And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

    We are called the Dragon Slayer.

    It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

    For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

    Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

    There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it.

    .....this is the most absurd use of semantics i have ever seen. Are you really using the fact that we don't literally fire that first shot? So if i have a machine that fires a gun or lasers automatically, i technically never fired anything and therefore i never wounded or killed anyone that got hit by the shots.

    Everyone DOES know we fought Mordremoth since we can, quite literally, take part in that attack on Dragon's Stand. Same with Zhaitan, we WERE there and we were manning the cannons that took him down. Will you say Aurene is the one that killed Balthazar since she helped us and no one was there to see who actually delivered the final blow?

    I didn't know that your guild discussions were suddenly part of the canon either, i learned something new today.

    Also, i know you from the old forums, whenever someone gave any sort of criticism against ANet, you constantly stepped in to defend them tooth and nail.

    No I'm saying the shot that did the MOST damage, didn't come from us at all. The thing that shot its wings off and made it land so we could shoot it wasn't us. You really want to take credit for all of that? We were manning the canons that finished him off. If you want to ignore the whole special weapon bit, that's on you, but it is a special weapon. If you play the Asuran story and you look at the whole Dr. Gor storyline, and how he created a special weapon, and even tested it later in the story you'd get it. There's more to this story than the half an hour you spend in what was once Arah story mode.

    The dragon was taken out of the air and down by a special weapon we don't fire. This isn't semantics. It's not a clever use of words. Play it and watch what happens. We finish the dragon off, after it gets basically downed. When we're hitting it it's clinging to a tower. We do finish it off, but not giving that first shot any credit...that's just ignoring what the game is showing you.

    So wait, you consider knocking out some of its wings to be more damaging than the constant barrage of cannons that eventually killed him?

    What?

    We grounded it, shot it out of the air and broke it apart into segments. We literally broke the dragon apart before we killed it with those guns. Just watch the video. We didn't just shoot off it's wings. We actually broke the dragon into smaller sections. That beam was what did the real damage, in my opinion, yes.

    But it didn't. You tell me to watch the video, yet you clearly didn't.

    At best, we hit the tail. He is still flying, still happily slams into the big cannon and destroys it. It's the barrage from later and those beams that entrap him that actually weaken him enough.

    Sure, but we didn't fire that barrage, that's the point. We finish him off after. I didn't fire anything to get it hurt enough to have to land. The video backs me up. We didn't do the most damage.

    Sigh, your backwards logic is astounding.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wow, this really took off. Sorry I haven't been replying, I haven't had time to do it properly until now. So this is probably going to be long. Firstly good to know I'm not the only one who has thought about this, and really interesting to see all the different interpretations.

    (I've put quotes and responses in the order I think makes most sense, rather than the other they appeared in the topic, for hopefully easier reading.)

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency?
    If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity?

    I suppose it depends on how you engage with the story. If you have that total separation of thinking of it strictly as a game where you have no choice and no control over what happens then the events probably don't affect you. But I don't do that. Admittedly it's odd for me because I always insist that my characters are not me - they don't look like me and they don't act like me, they do a lot of things I'd never do (like kill people) but when it comes to the story I still like to 'own' their decisions, even if I'm not offered a choice. In my head by continuing to play the game I am making that choice. I suppose it's kind of exploring a hypothetical - if I did do this, what would happen? What would the outcome be? And also what kind of person would make that decision and how would it impact them? Which means I'm exploring their feelings through my own while playing.

    @Overlord RainyDay.2084 said:
    It wasn't really mentioned during season 1, since it seems like the effects of Zhaitan's death were delayed. We were a little busy during S2 and HoT to see any effects if they had manifested by then, so it may have seemed a little out of left field for this plot point to crop up in season 3. I guess just losing one isn't that bad, it's when 1/3 of the dragons are gone that things really go crazy.

    The earliest impact of Zhaitan's death I remember was Mordremoth collecting the bodies of the dead and turning them into his minions, which I think first became apparent at the start of HoT. Mordremoth's powers are plant & mind magic so he wouldn't normally have been able to do that, it's an ability he got from Zhaitan.

    But because the Pact rushed their assault on Mordremoth (compared to Zhaitan) we didn't know that much about his abilities. We didn't even realise until after trekking all across the jungle trying to find him that he didn't have a single self-contained body - all those vines spread across Tyria are Mordremoth - and therefore we couldn't kill him that easily and had to go after his mind instead. (Yes he dies when he impales his head on a spike at the end of the Dragon's Stand meta-event, but if I understood correctly the canon order of events is that happens at the same time as the final story mission - so the Pact are outside distracting him with a physical assault on a vulnerable part of his body and a smaller team is attacking his mind.)

    So it wasn't immediately obvious that he'd gotten the death magic abilities from Zhaitan. It was only after we began seeing other examples of the same thing that the pattern became clear.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    One of the developers spoke to this at the recent AMA. My paraphrase of the response was: for story telling purposes, we need to get the player to rethink the game plan. We needed it to be someone who the commander would have to listen to and yet might be inclined to ignore. Someone who could make the commander question their past actions.

    So if I understood correctly, the OP's reaction is exactly what the writing team wanted to happen. Should we feel bad? Should we dismiss it as "Joko just messing with our head?" Even if Joko's spin is wrong, maybe killing the elder dragons isn't the right thing to do. Maybe we did make things worse.

    So that (again, assuming I understood correctly), we will be well marinated by the time LS4.4 comes along and ready for the next crisis.

    That's interesting, and kind of reassuring, that they expected us to question our characters actions.

    I think with me it helps that killing the dragons never really felt right to me. In real life I'm very much a pacifist - I'd rather find a compromise than resort to killing people I disagree with. And also I like dragons. Even dragons which are primal forces of nature with all the destructive power that entails. Admittedly killing Zhaitan didn't bother me much, I think because I don't like undead, but killing the Shadow of the Dragon at the end of Season 2 definitely felt wrong - it's a unique magical creature (and it turned out basically a sylvari) - and I destroyed it. But then what else could we do? It was there to kill us and we were cornered. So I was already in this mindset before being confronted with it in-game, and that made me more susceptible to it. Like @castlemanic.3198 said (in a spoiler tag for post length):

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Edelweiss.4261 said:
    I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency?
    If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity?

    The commander is written in such a way that it's easy for players to step into the mold of the commander. While we didn't have agency with regards to killing the elder dragons, the mold of the commander is the destroyer of dragons and part of that mold is dealing with the consequences of the commander's actions. If you're not stepping into that mold willingly, it's unlikely that Joko's words would have any impact on you as a player.
    Because the words SHOULD make the commander feel bad, feel that knife twisting when Joko blames the commander for something that was not entirely the commander's decision (the pact united as a whole). If you decide to step into the mold of the commander, the commander's feelings become YOUR feelings, which, again, if you don't willingly step into that mold, it won't have that narrative effect on you. And I think a major theme of the commander is resilience. Even in the face of nearly driving the world to calamity, the commander still takes up the mantle of hero and fights to protect everyone, and undo the mistakes or at least as much course correction as possible.

    Essentially, the commander made this mess, the commander is the only one who can fix it.

    I also agree with the people saying it's not a sudden change of direction. The idea that the dragons are an integral part of Tyria has been in the lore pretty much as long as the dragons have with the implied (and later confirmed) cycle of their rising, consuming magic, going to sleep and releasing magic. Alongside that have been characters suggesting it's a bad idea to kill them. It's just that no one really paid much attention to that theory because there were no obvious consequences until after it happened and a lot of reasons to try it (like we'd all die otherwise.)

    Admittedly the negative consequences of them dying have only been revealed gradually and it wasn't immediately clear they were connected, but I'm surprised that's seen as a negative considering one of the most common complaints I see about this game is that all the stories are short, simple and self-contained and once an arc is done it's dropped or forgotten for the next thing. Now we find there's been this long, subtly building plotline and somehow that's a bad thing? Or is the problem that it was too subtle and some people missed the clues until it was explained by characters in the story? And some people even missed that considering we were told directly by Taimi at the start of Season 3 that killing another elder dragon would destroy the world but at the end of the story some people were questioning why we didn't side with Balthazar and help him kill them - then acted like us saving them came out of nowhere with no explanation. (I do sometimes wonder how many of these are the same people make a point of never reading or listening to any dialogue and keep requesting ways to skip anything except combat even on the first play-through. But if you don't care enough to listen why would you care whether it makes sense?)

    IMO it's also a more interesting story. Regardless of the fact that I like dragons the GW2 dragons never made for very interesting enemies because they're largely faceless, neutral, antagonists. They're evil and dangerous in the sense that they're destroying everything around them but there's very little sense of motive and no personality behind it. If they were people instead of gigantic elemental style dragons they'd be like the worst bad guys from 80's cartoons - evil for the sake of being evil so the good guys are unequivocally right in stopping them.

    Trying to find a way to stop them without killing them, whilst trying to stop anyone else killing them, is a far more complex, novel and interesting plot and I'm much more interested in seeing where it will lead and what will happen along the way than when it seemed like the future of this game was simply 'which dragon will we kill next'?

    Even so I don't think any of my characters would feel guilty about their previous actions. Yes they messed up and endangered the world when they thought they were saving it - but they did the best they could with the information and the options available to them at the time. They're absolutely going to want to do what they can to put it right (and I'm hoping that trying to raise Aurene to be a 'good' dragon will help with that), but I still don't buy Joko's claim that we're the villains here.

    "You can run like a river, Till you end up in the sea,
    And you run till night is black, And keep on going in your dreams,
    And you know all the long while, It's the journey that you seek,
    It's the miles of moving forward, With the wind beneath your wings."

  • Overlord RainyDay.2084Overlord RainyDay.2084 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2018

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    I still don't buy Joko's claim that we're the villains here.

    Maybe that's not the point, maybe the point was to get other people to buy it. Conspiracy theory here, but is there any chance that other people may come to doubt or hero status? How well has the knowledge been spread that killing dragons is a bad idea? Surely somebody outside of Dragon's Watch knows by now. Joko certainly did.

    Your average citizen of Tyria probably hasn't seen the effects of dragon activity, or cares very little about it. Zhaitan attacked far and wide, but his only large scale attacks were on Claw island and pact military outposts. (Plus it's been 5 years in-game at this point.) Mordremoth shut down the leyline system for a bit, attacked a fort in Kryta (That was already in a warzone) and a char outpost that was apparently insignificant enough that Smodur and Rytlock didn't think it was a big deal at first. Most people aside from Sylvari likely never fully understood the thrat of Mordremoth. Jormag and Primordus have been dormant for long enough that it seems like most people don't care. They even let the Sons of Svanir, hang out in Hoelbrak and recruit. The effects of Kralkatorrik's brand are still felt throughout Ascalon, but it appears the Charr consider it manageable. Kralk himself has been out of sight out of mind for a while. Now, what people probably are aware of are the increasing amount of uncontrolled magic in the world. To your average Krytan, Charr, Norn, Arus, or Elonian, Dragons are just this vague distant threat that rarely bothers people and are mostly kept in check.

    So, if word gets out that Killing dragons = Bad, who would the common person pin the blame on? The Dragonslayer? The one who personally organized the world summit to kill the second dragon? The one who killed one of the Six, and was there when a third dragon almost died? Could Joko have somehow spread rumors painting us a dangerous lunatic, hellbent on destroying the world? From some of the messages heard around Kourna, it seems like he had considered that he might not win against us, so maybe he had a contingency plan in place to tank our reputation in the event he couldn't kill us.

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