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Joko's speech at the end of Be My Guest - are we supposed to feel bad?


Danikat.8537

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There will obviously be spoilers for the latest episode, skip this topic if you want to avoid them.

At the end of Be My Guest when the cutscene starts Joko says "The rumors of my immortality are drastically...understated. Oh, Commander, you look so disappointed. So impotent. I feel for you, I really do. But let's be honest: you knew, in your heart. Fear not, the world will not forget you. The scars you've gouged into it spell out your name for all to see. I confess, I was happy to take credit for your "victories." But did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you? That so many bought what I was selling? They call me a monster and you a hero. The world expects Palawa Joko to dare to throw reality into chaos. But surely no mortal would be so monumentally STUPID as to destroy a dragon, the life force of this world. Let alone two. And a god to boot? Perhaps they will finally thank me for luring you to me...So that I. May save the world. From you. Once you're gone, everyone will flock to my embrace. They will all love ME— Palawa Ignacious Joko!" And later Braham agrees that the player character and Dragon's Watch do tend to cause chaos.

My first impression is that's something the PC and the player is supposed to feel bad about, but that definitely wasn't my reaction.

Firstly Joko's being a bit dishonest there - the people he's feeding his propaganda to don't call him a monster or expect him to "throw reality into chaos" - that's the people outside Elona who still see him as a vicious dictator who conquered 3 nations by force. The people within Elona, even the rebels, think the exact opposite: that he united Elona and brought order and safety. And they think that precisely because of his propaganda.

Secondly it's not like anyone was crying out for us to spare the dragons. Killing them isn't a decision the PC made on their own, and they weren't even the first to suggest it. All the nations of Tyria (the continent, not the whole world) were represented in the Pact and allied with it, they all supported the goal of killing the dragons, because they all thought it was the only option. And the Elonian's who believed Joko when he took credit for it thought the same - that by doing it he was keeping them safe. It's only after they died we found out it was a bad idea.

But also I don't see chaos as necessarily a bad thing (maybe because my introduction to RPGs was old-school DnD games, starting with Eye of the Beholder, and I've always picked Chaotic Good for my main character) and in the entire time I've been playing this game it's never once occurred to me that bringing order to Tyria, or even averting chaos, was what we were trying to achieve. Most of the time we don't even get enough breathing room to take a step back from "Someone has to stop this now or the world will be destroyed", we certainly don't get to start thinking about what the world should be like instead and I don't think it's the PCs place to decide that.

But on the other hand I'm not sure if this is just me trying to rationalise it - a more complicated form of "No, I'm not the villain - you're the villain Joko!" so I'd be interested to know what other people thought about that part of the ending. Or if I'm just massively over-thinking it by even starting this topic.

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Joko trying to get into your head. Nothing more. It is curious how he also knows destroying dragons is a bad thing when the rest of the world outside of Dragons Watch still sees killing them as a good thing.

Up until Braham cooled down he was still on the kill all the dragons train of thought himself. So Joko's rant actually served as a reminder to the fact that we should let up on killing them until we plan out replacements for their parts in the world cycle.

He shouldn't have been privy to that though and it's curious he'd want to sell himself as someone killing dragons when he knows it's not a good thing to do. We'll never know now why he knows that.

It lends credence to the theory Joko was even older than his claims to being a primeval king.

But of course it's Joko. Nothing he says can be trusted without being verified. He could have picked up some of that info from all the Inquest he'd been awakening.

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It WAS meant to make the players feel bad, I'll get into that further in the responses however.

Joko isn't being dishonest, he's talking about two different audiences. It was easy to convince his loyalists that he had achieved these massive victories while sitting back and doing nothing, and he's actively taunting the commander about that. Joko IS larger than life in a certain way, being a lich and all, and he uses this and his ability to entirely hold Elona in his control as his method of 'proving' his reputation. When talking about being called a monster, he's talking about everyone outside of Elona, and saying that eventually, far in the future when all this has become history, the people would see Joko as the saviour of Tyria. Joko has been around for several centuries so his perspective of time is different than any living being, and if left alone, Joko would be able to ride out practically anything that would happen. If Aurene failed to intervene, Joko would have the means of spinning the narrative to make himself the hero, as if he knew about how the dragons were the lifeblood of the world and drew the commander in as a method of containing the commander's destruction. Over centuries, it would be possible for him to convince everyone that he's not a monster, but a hero. He's talking long term because he's 'lived' so long that his view of time is different.

The second thing I touched on a bit already. Joko is actively taunting the commander for not knowing about how the dragons are so vital to Tyria. For acting without fully understanding what the elder dragons are and nearly destroying everything. We didn't know. We didn't have the full information and we acted to protect ourself. Joko is calling out our selfishness in a way that singularly blames the commander (who was directly responsible for the death of both Zhaitan and Mordremoth, much more so the latter). It's not entirely true, but Joko is all about manipulation. It SHOULD sting that we didn't know the dragons were so vital, that we acted so hastily without finding out all the information we needed. We don't know when Joko learned about the dragons being vital, my personal theory is that Joko learned about how vital they are about the same time we did, and is actively using that as a form of manipulation to taunt the commander in what would have been their final moment were it not for Aurene. It's absolutely something he would rub in the face of the commander to try and make us despair, like all we had ever accomplished was nearly killing everyone and everything we ever loved, and to 'submit' to Joko. It was an attempt at breaking the commander. And then he was turned into dragon chow.

I also think you miss the point about the 'throwing reality into chaos' bit. There's the chaos in every day decisions which can be expressed through dungeons and dragons, but there's another form of the word. Taimi's holographic model of what happens if the energies of Primordus and Jormag collide shows that Tyria itself is entirely destroyed if it comes to pass. That's the 'chaos' that Joko talks about. What form the total destruction of Tyria will go through if it happens is unsure, as it's simply a model, but the data is unmistakable, and the term "throw ____ into chaos" has been used as an idiom when it comes to the destruction of the world/universe/reality itself in other media before.

I don't think you're overthinking it but I do think you're looking at it from the wrong angle.

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It WAS meant to make you feel bad, it was meant to make you realize that he knows exactly how damaging what we've done is [when even we barely knew of it].

He's not being dishonest at all. People expect him to be a force of nature, obliterating his enemies and doing untold horror. This is why he tells you that, when he started to tell people that HE killed the Dragons and a God, they all believed and feared him more; because such horrible things like taking down an almighty Elder Dragon that just so happens to be the reason why Tyria isn't a maelstrom of death and magic and killing one of the Six Human Gods is so believable.

Even though we've done it for the right reasons, we HAVE brought untold chaos into the world by nearly ripping it at the seems from the death of two Elder Dragons and now a God.

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I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency?If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity?

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One of the developers spoke to this at the recent AMA. My paraphrase of the response was: for story telling purposes, we need to get the player to rethink the game plan. We needed it to be someone who the commander would have to listen to and yet might be inclined to ignore. Someone who could make the commander question their past actions.

So if I understood correctly, the OP's reaction is exactly what the writing team wanted to happen. Should we feel bad? Should we dismiss it as "Joko just messing with our head?" Even if Joko's spin is wrong, maybe killing the elder dragons isn't the right thing to do. Maybe we did make things worse.

So that (again, assuming I understood correctly), we will be well marinated by the time LS4.4 comes along and ready for the next crisis.

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@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:One of the developers spoke to this at the recent AMA. My paraphrase of the response was: for story telling purposes, we need to get the player to rethink the game plan. We needed it to be someone who the commander would have to listen to and yet might be inclined to ignore. Someone who could make the commander question their past actions.

So if I understood correctly, the OP's reaction is exactly what the writing team wanted to happen. Should we feel bad? Should we dismiss it as "Joko just messing with our head?" Even if Joko's spin is wrong, maybe killing the elder dragons isn't the right thing to do. Maybe we did make things worse.

So that (again, assuming I understood correctly), we will be well marinated by the time LS4.4 comes along and ready for the next crisis.

In my opinion, the paraphrasing misses the subtext.Here's the most relevant quote from the AMA:

When it came to how to handle his exit, we had to decide what we wanted the POINT of the exit to be. And we figured someone needed to articulate the thing that had been bothering a lot of us as writers, which is that there's an argument to be made that the Commander has--with the best of intentions--done a lot of things that actually made the world's situation worse.

We figured Joko was the right character to say it in a way that the Commander would be tempted to dismiss, but that would get under your skin. He's saying it in the most blame-y way possible, but is the SUBSTANCE of what he's saying wrong?

Emphasis mine.

There's an intention of twisting the knife when it comes to what the commander has done, narratively speaking. The exact words aren't true, we aren't solely responsible for the death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, but we DID kill them and offset the balance of the world. It's far more that simply questioning whether Joko's words are true. Because his words ARE true, to a certain extent.

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@Edelweiss.4261 said:I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency?If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity?

The commander is written in such a way that it's easy for players to step into the mold of the commander. While we didn't have agency with regards to killing the elder dragons, the mold of the commander is the destroyer of dragons and part of that mold is dealing with the consequences of the commander's actions. If you're not stepping into that mold willingly, it's unlikely that Joko's words would have any impact on you as a player.Because the words SHOULD make the commander feel bad, feel that knife twisting when Joko blames the commander for something that was not entirely the commander's decision (the pact united as a whole). If you decide to step into the mold of the commander, the commander's feelings become YOUR feelings, which, again, if you don't willingly step into that mold, it won't have that narrative effect on you. And I think a major theme of the commander is resilience. Even in the face of nearly driving the world to calamity, the commander still takes up the mantle of hero and fights to protect everyone, and undo the mistakes or at least as much course correction as possible.

Essentially, the commander made this mess, the commander is the only one who can fix it.

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@Edelweiss.4261 said:I'm not really sure how it would make you feel bad. We haven't done anything. Regardless of any choice you make, the commander kills dragons. Most of my characters haven't killed Elder Dragons, yet they are still dead. Why feel guilty when you had no agency?If it was to make the commander feel bad, then, perhaps, it was more effective. We don't really decide what the commander does or feels. I imagine if I had made such decisions, I'd be running on fumes alone. How does one go on when they've possibly led so many to calamity?

....you do know that our character is ALWAYS, within the lore, the exact same as everyone else, right? So yes, all your characters technically killed the dragons and killed Balthazar.

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The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

Also, just... I dunno.The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing isI dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerveI think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

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The speech is the essentially the same as what is often levelled at the Doctor in Doctor Who by enemies and observers alike. Not everyone will bite the bait, but also many of us already are aware of our ambivalent actions and dont care due to enough of a disconnect between us and our character.

I thought it was well put across though.

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@"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said:The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

Also, just... I dunno.The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing isI dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerveI think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

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@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said:The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

Also, just... I dunno.The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing isI dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerveI think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

I agree, I have no doubt in my mind that the devs didn't plan this route when GW2 was first released. This was absolutely a sudden swerve to make the story interesting. And each individual will have a different mileage on how effective it was. I think this is a much better direction story wise than what was given initially at launch but the whiplash from the sudden turn still hurts. There's a lot that needs to be reworked to make sense of it all, or even have things just explained in a way that connects all the dots together, and I hope the devs keep an eye on that kind of thing.

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For Zhaitan there wasn't much choice about what to do. He was sending out more powerful and intelligent undead, attacking Lion's Arch and sending agents as far away as Fireheart Rise. It wasn't really a situation that could be ignored at that point. Unless there was some other option we didn't know about, like a way to put Zhaitan back to sleep, I don't think we could have left Orr without Killing Zhaitan. It's not like we were just going to fly away and call it a day after shooting him out of the sky.

For Mordremoth, we kind of did have a chance to do something. If we had stopped Scarlet at any point before the breachmaker hit the ley line, Mordremoth may not have fully woken up. Who knows how long he would have stayed dormant. Now, who knows things may have been even worse if he woke up some years later as the perfect combination of factors leading to tyria's strongest heroes getting access to his mind may not have been in place.

I'm also not sure we could have avoided dealing with Balthazar. Even if we didn't fight Mordremoth, Rytlock was still going to try the Foefire cleansing ritual, fall into the mists, then free him on the way out. Nothing short of Logan letting him die in CoF story mode would prevent that. Now if Mordremoth hadn't woken up, we may not have found Omadd's machine, leading to Taimi's machine never being built. This would mean, a revived Balthazar may not have progressed beyond the power he had as "Lazarus", though if he didn't know about Mordremoth's whereabouts, he'd probably still go after Kralk first, bringing us back to where we are now.

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@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said:The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

Also, just... I dunno.The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing isI dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerveI think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

It's not sudden at all. Some of this stuff has been brought up before, particularly the damage done by the killing of elder dragons.

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It wasn't really mentioned during season 1, since it seems like the effects of Zhaitan's death were delayed. We were a little busy during S2 and HoT to see any effects if they had manifested by then, so it may have seemed a little out of left field for this plot point to crop up in season 3. I guess just losing one isn't that bad, it's when 1/3 of the dragons are gone that things really go crazy.

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Like all good salesman, Joko is very good at mixing truth and lies to create a more plausible lie.

The real issue here is not what we're supposed to feel, so much as what he was trying to make us feel. Joko was gloating. It's his modus operandi. He's egotistical, and he wants to rub salt in our wounds. As such he borrows from the truth to make his lies less obvious...more plausible.

We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

We did kill a god, to stop him from killing an elder dragon that the world couldn't afford to lose. Killing the god saved a dragon, but Joko isn't about to point that out.

Joko was taunting is, but it was designed to make players think.

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Whole GW2 story of the commander is meant to make you feel bad. Love it, unlike other games where you are the hero and you are right.We did what we had to do but that doesn't mean we were right. Check your game story again. Joko just summed it up

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@Vayne.8563 said:

We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Rockin Twilight Sparkle.2615" said:The question is, why was killing Bath Salts a bad thing, considering he was literally saying 'no, I am war, I have to go kill dragons, I don't care if it destroys the world, I am war'I mean, it was either 'we kill him and maybe the energy spike does something bad' or 'we don't kill him and he very likely kills a dragon and throws everything out of whack'

Also, just... I dunno.The whole 'dragons are basically the lynchpins of Tyria' thing isI dunno. I get it, I understand it, but it still feels like kind of a sudden swerveI think I would feel better about it if I actually got to smack Zhaitan in the face

Because it IS a sudden swerve to try to spice up the story.

It's not sudden at all. Some of this stuff has been brought up before, particularly the damage done by the killing of elder dragons.

Sigh, not you again white knighting everything from ANet. At no point has it ever been mentioned that killing the Elder Dragons was a horrible idea until then.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

We are called the Dragon Slayer.

It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

We are called the Dragon Slayer.

It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

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@Ephemiel.5694 said:

We didn't kill 2 elder dragons, though we were instrumental in killing both. Zhaitan was killed by a pact airship and Mordremoth impaled his own head on a spike.

With Zhaitan, we were personally at key points of strategy in exploiting his weakness and were in the final battle with Zhaitan bombarding the beast with the cannons.

We literally ended Mordremoth by beating his avatar in the dream and forcing him to regrow in Trehearne, then killing him.

I don't think it's that clear cut. Zhaitan was killed by an airship that was using an anti-dragon magic ray designed by the asurans. We might have weakened the dragon, but we didn't kill the dragon alone. One of five guns shooting anti dragon magic at him killed him.

And though we did in fact defeat his mind, the entire pact army was keeping mordemoth busy as well. Do you really want to take credit for the whole thing? If anything, I see it as two halves of a whole, akin to Frodo throwing the ring into Mount Doom in Lord of the Rings. If it weren't for the attack from Gondor to keep the eye of Sauron off him, he'd never have made it. Team efforts are after all team efforts.

And in the eyes of the world, they didn't see what we did. Do you really think the people who fought Mordremoth in that fight and killed his body are saying we were the ones who killed Mordremoth?

We are called the Dragon Slayer.

It clearly the Commander, Destiny’s Edge and possible other group mates bombarding Zhaitan and then we watched it die.

For Mordremoth, maybe on the ground level some pact soldiers thought that they straight up killed the dragon, but it was more distracting the dragon, crippling it, it was the Commander that put Mordremoth down.

Also, WE were manning the guns that were shooting at Zhaitan, they weren't shooting by themselves. It's like saying that, if you kill someone by shooting them, the gun helped so you didn't do it alone.

There were five guns. I did the mission with four guildies. Obviously I didn't solo Zhaitan. The first shot that downed him, before we shot his wings off were taken by the ship using the anti dragon magic gun. We didn't shoot that gun. We did finish off the dragon once the big gun shot his wings off. And we helped protect that gun from Risen before it fired, but we didn't fire it.

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