If ANet said they want to revamp all legends in order from most need to least need of revamp

If ANet said they want to revamp all legends in order from most need of revamp, to least need of revamp. what order would you put? We have 6 legends in total excluding me. :^)So arrange the 6 legends in order with 1 being the more in need of revamp, and 6 being the least need of revamp.

@Khailyn.6248 said:

1. kalla
2. mallyx
3. ventari
4. jalis
5. glint
6. shiro

I would argue that mallyx is in more need of a revamp than kalla but whatever ¯\(ツ)/¯

What I would mainly like to see addressed and worked on, are the design decisions that went into the Kalla utility skills. I can't really fathom why they need pathing to be placed. There are no teleportation involved, we can't abuse them in any way like that, they are stationary, and while also being a point of aggravation (for modes like WvW) — they are furthermore killable. They are in their current rendition basically killable fields that we are unable to place on to or down from structures, boulders, in general on to or down from a lot of uneven terrain without being told some stupid error about there being "no valid path to target". The design decision there is absolutely crazy bad. Going by that, no class should be able to use any type of field or ground targeted skill from such terrain. If it's somehow a technical limitation that the devs for whatever reason couldn't solve, I don't see why they can't make them into actual fields that simply spawns a targetable entity that is killable in its center; if the target dies, set any remaining time that the field has in the world to 0 to make it disappear with the targetable entity, if the timer times out, remove targetable entity. I really can't see how even the worst of spaghetti code wouldn't be able to find a way around this game breakingly bad, frustrating and seriously annoying design implementation.

PS: Short Bow misses a lot of its Bloodbane Path shots on moving targets and it kinda lacks certain defensive options. Scorchrazor is too slow and not defensive enough in its nature for PvP on its own. And with Spiritcrush not being possible to fire off behind you either, it gets difficult to kite, and that's even though you are technically opening a portal through the mists to shoot the arrows down into a different location if we go by the animation. Maybe resolve that and add a 1 second Cripple to each pulse of the field it generates? I wouldn't touch too much about how the skills otherwise functions though. The only reason I am frustrated and upset about these things is because I think the developers created an Elite Specialization concept that are really cool and overall very fun. It's just hindered by some serious flaws. I just want to see the specialization reach a better state for all the game modes.

The rest of the stances I don't particularly have too many aggrievances with. It's mainly Kalla for me.

@Hiki.9310 said:

@Khailyn.6248 said:

1. kalla
2. mallyx
3. ventari
4. jalis
5. glint
6. shiro

then perhaps you should have posted your own list since this is purely my opinion.

As a new player, I was about to pick up Revenant and play it (the abilities, traits, and Legends are an absolute blast), however anything I tried to do seemed to be done better elsewhere.

When I tried to build Condition, Core Warrior (at least for me) was both higher dps and uptime than my Kalla/Malyx combo.When I went Shiro for damage with Glint backup (starting a fight with "free" buffs is better than I thought), I found that my Deadeye did more work and safer with stealth available as well. At times, I found myself wishing I could just put Shiro on both sides (and to an extent I did, I shoved Malyx over Glint as a way to shred boons and reduce incoming condition damage).I can't really understand the purpose of Jalis or Ventari honestly.

All of this was to say, that from my super newbie perspective I think the list of changes from most to least would be:VentariJalisGlintKallaMalyxShiro

This probably isn't something I should comment on, being new and all- I just wanted to toss my hat in the ring. I almost started to main this super cool smoke soldier, but every time I thought I found a build someone told me X did it better. Then I tried it, and indeed X did it better.

Edit: I should probably add this was all from a PvP perspective. Ventari and Jalis are practically useless to me there (I don't want to take damage, and I don't trust my teammates to position around my heals), Glint was both too complicated and too weak for me to use in my power build which is why it's above Kalla which (surprisingly) worked there, Malyx is down because of buff removal, and Shiro is at the bottom because its just so gosh darn good.

KallaVentariJailsMallyxShiroGlint

While mallyx and Jalis need work, only kalla and ventari really need revamp.

From a WvW roaming perspective, might apply to PvP as well:

1. Kalla - Redo shortbow skill 2-3 , change citadel bombardment , give chill to Icerazor. Change utilities into wells instead of summons, or have them be mobile.
2. Ventari - Probably biased, but i think the tablet mechanic and utility skills are solid. Though it needs a stunbreak. + some traits changed/moved around.
3. Mallyx - The banish enchantment and elite buffs were great. Though i'd prefer torment over confusion on banish. Mabey increase leap range to 900. Overall solid kit to me, though i feel resistance is useless these days.
4. Jalis - Generally decent, i just dislike the elite skill being the stunbreaker on the kit at 50 energy.
5. Glint - Pretty good at what it was designed for, albeit a bit boring imo.
6. Shiro - Staple of revenant, solid legend. I have this thing where i'd prefer it to have Glint's heal skill based on Shiro in GW1, but it'd make Glint obsolete so i guess not.

I don't really care for the word "revamp" as its likely to end up something nobody asked for.

1) Mallyx, due is not viable for duelling/pvp.2) Jalis, coz nowhere viable as a tank, to tank a crap.

Tha's all. For all I care the Vegan Pacifist and the Bag of Fleas can rott in hell.

@"StabbersTheThird.6053" said:As a new player, I was about to pick up Revenant and play it (the abilities, traits, and Legends are an absolute blast), however anything I tried to do seemed to be done better elsewhere.

When I tried to build Condition, Core Warrior (at least for me) was both higher dps and uptime than my Kalla/Malyx combo.When I went Shiro for damage with Glint backup (starting a fight with "free" buffs is better than I thought), I found that my Deadeye did more work and safer with stealth available as well. At times, I found myself wishing I could just put Shiro on both sides (and to an extent I did, I shoved Malyx over Glint as a way to shred boons and reduce incoming condition damage).I can't really understand the purpose of Jalis or Ventari honestly.

All of this was to say, that from my super newbie perspective I think the list of changes from most to least would be:VentariJalisGlintKallaMalyxShiro

This probably isn't something I should comment on, being new and all- I just wanted to toss my hat in the ring. I almost started to main this super cool smoke soldier, but every time I thought I found a build someone told me X did it better. Then I tried it, and indeed X did it better.

Edit: I should probably add this was all from a PvP perspective. Ventari and Jalis are practically useless to me there (I don't want to take damage, and I don't trust my teammates to position around my heals), Glint was both too complicated and too weak for me to use in my power build which is why it's above Kalla which (surprisingly) worked there, Malyx is down because of buff removal, and Shiro is at the bottom because its just so gosh darn good.

Taken in perspective, its not even about "being done better else where", because that suggests classes should be designed by min/max performance. The REAL issue is that Rev is supposed to flexible, but for some reason thats is the one place its always struggled. It SHOULD feel like a class that has 2 builds it swaps between on the fly. In practice, its 2 half builds trying to find synergy with each other. It has twice the number of available utilities in combat, but very rarely do they play off strongly with your other skills.... even among their sister skills. The weapon and utility skills are very commonly in competition for Energy, which has long hampered the Rev's ability to chain skills... and even when saving all energy for these combos, the output is short lived. The skills are also meant to have a weak statistical base, with the idea that you need good investment into a stat to make proper use of a Legend's collective skills; which had created a problem when each legend focuses on different stats.

Especs, by design for Rev, are supposed to address this issue by having synergy with certain core legends. While this is true to some extent, both of the Espec legends thus far have been very passive in their play styles, while the Cores are very proactive or reactive. That dichotomy should work better, except Cores have trouble keeping pressure up between the energy cost and cool down of its most useful skills. The changes to the Upkeep costs shows how bad that was, since we already knew weapons and utilities were meant to be paired to work in tandem. And with that spare energy, Revs don't feel like they're forced to legend swap at inopportune times just to get more energy for weapon skills.

Which brings us to how the Legends fit into combat, and thus the buildcraft. Shrio has always been the most effective legend, because Combat is what most builds have to deal with over everything else. Its made to stick to a target, and keep applying pressure until it breaks. Both Kalla and Glint are support specs, and operate best as backline or midline for group comp. And its in this dynamic that their pairings should make perfect sense, yet don't in practice...... Shiro's self sustain is weak, and relies on having the combat advantage to continue attacking. Jalis has a lot of self sustain, but limited counter pressure. Its only with the changes to off-hand sword and Vengeful Hammers, that a synergy that doesn't outright drain energy in one burst now exists, and allows Jalis to be used reliably to help turn a fight around. This is huge deal since Jalis as kit lost a lot of potency when they changed its stability trait, and running the damage mitigation skills had very limited windows given the energy cost. Mallyx's kit is still incomplete, because much of it is still built around the idea of holding conditions, and relied on Resistance to keep it under control..... which in the current boon strip meta is easy to shut down. Even then, it has trouble throwing enough conditions back when most builds in PvP and WvW can purge them. In PvE, those aspects were mostly going to waste, due to how different NPCs use conditions. Basically this is the problem Scourge has with needing a particular type of enemy to really fuel its threat level. And just like Scourge, Mallyx needs the ability to rapidly reapply both damaging and cover conditions to outpace the condition clear. Ventari's big issue is lack of mobility. Most of this is tied up in the Tablet's movement mechanics; and would need faster action time and 1200 range to make this mechanic minimally viable for WvW, where the rest of the utility effects is arguably at its strongest. Another weird thing is I've noticed is that Hammer would functionally pair better with Ventari, since the Tablet is a remote entity, and Staff better with Jalis, since its made for mid to melee range.

But in light of how all of these legends differ in their dynamics, one thing never made much sense...... why is swapping legends with complimentary play styles not always effective? As best as i can describe it, it generally comes down to each legend being built around a certain combat scenario that never really happens as expected, and this "short fall" is meant to be resolved by Group comp. But the only place that kind of control exists is in Raids..... and raids disregard anything that isn't top performance of a deep specialization. Basically it runs on the flawed premise that the game rewards a particular type of build diversity, when in practice it doesn't. And thats not even a complete statement, as the further into detail you brake it down, the Revs requires conditions to be met, while most other classes have the means to create them.

1. Kalla
2. Ventari
3. Mallyx
4. Jalis
5. Glint
6. Shiro

I think the first two need either a rework or a vast passover of their abilities and costs. Mallyx is ok for the condition spec but just kind of falls flat as it's basically an elite only legend. Jalis is a bit awkward because its a defensive legend that has to be used for.. power damage? Maybe we just need another elite spec to fill out that roster now since Glint can't fill out the power dps legend.

Glint and Shiro are good thematically.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:If ANet said they want to revamp all legends in order from most need of revamp, to least need of revamp. what order would you put? We have 6 legends in total excluding me. :^)So arrange the 6 legends in order with 1 being the more in need of revamp, and 6 being the least need of revamp.

THEY NEVER SAID THIS .... so why making ppl some illusions of rework .... they gave up on changing anything just simple dps buffs ... NO REWORKput off the pink glasses see the reality of revenant

@Arkantos.7460 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:If ANet said they want to revamp all legends in order from most need of revamp, to least need of revamp. what order would you put? We have 6 legends in total excluding me. :^)So arrange the 6 legends in order with 1 being the more in need of revamp, and 6 being the least need of revamp.

I never said they said this. I just want to see what order people would prefer the legends get a rework, from the most needed to the least needed.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:If ANet said they want to revamp all legends in order from most need of revamp, to least need of revamp. what order would you put? We have 6 legends in total excluding me. :^)So arrange the 6 legends in order with 1 being the more in need of revamp, and 6 being the least need of revamp.

And he is saying they never said this so this thread is kind of lacking in a point. At least a revenant rework thread has suggestions for them to bounce off if they ever decided to read them. Dwayna knows we have seen way too many revenant rework threads already.

@Justine.6351 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:If ANet said they want to revamp all legends in order from most need of revamp, to least need of revamp. what order would you put? We have 6 legends in total excluding me. :^)So arrange the 6 legends in order with 1 being the more in need of revamp, and 6 being the least need of revamp.

And I never said they said that. And that itsnt the point of this thread. this thread was only to see what order people think the legends in the most need to least need are in. Not if they will be fixed or should be fixed. thats for that other thread you speak of..

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:If ANet said they want to revamp all legends in order from most need of revamp, to least need of revamp. what order would you put? We have 6 legends in total excluding me. :^)So arrange the 6 legends in order with 1 being the more in need of revamp, and 6 being the least need of revamp.

And what you are still missing is that the concept of this thread is moot. Its like asking "hey guys, if anet were to decide which legends to delete from the game to make room for more, what order of removal would you place them?".

@Justine.6351 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:If ANet said they want to revamp all legends in order from most need of revamp, to least need of revamp. what order would you put? We have 6 legends in total excluding me. :^)So arrange the 6 legends in order with 1 being the more in need of revamp, and 6 being the least need of revamp.

well like opinions, everybody has them. whats moot to you may not be moot to others. lets agree to disagree.

@Justine.6351 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:If ANet said they want to revamp all legends in order from most need of revamp, to least need of revamp. what order would you put? We have 6 legends in total excluding me. :^)So arrange the 6 legends in order with 1 being the more in need of revamp, and 6 being the least need of revamp.

No, It points out which legends are the weakest. Plus, threads can include new ideas. And sharing ideas is always good.

@"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:From a WvW roaming perspective, might apply to PvP as well:

4. Jalis - Generally decent, i just dislike the elite skill being the stunbreaker on the kit at 50 energy.

40 energy now.

We don't really need a rework. If you want new toys or shiny new mechanics, try a different class or wait for the next E-spec.

That said, I've seen the most complaints to fix Renegade. It seems have found a niche in healing and condi builds, but most wish for something more in terms of Shortbow. If anything needs a rework, maybe they can turn them into necro minions or something.

As a personal opinion, Herald Shield could use something more. It's been said many times and in better ways, but perhaps unroot skill 5 or increase the healing. Maybe increase the ICD, give us a breakbar again, and make it the first invuln on a weapon skill. I don't know.

And for wishful thinking, give core Revenant the offhand Focus. You could make it another support tool for us, and it would prevent Anet from having to decide whether the Razah spec gets it or Scepter ;P

@ethanzephyr.7298 said:make it the first invuln on a weapon skill. I don't know.

Ele has Obsidian Flesh on focus so it wouldn't be.

My list based on purely the legends themselves:

1. Kalla
2. Jalis
3. Ventari
4. MallyxLeave the legends not mentioned alone, they are fine.

Same list for weapons:

1. Shield
2. Shortbow
3. Axe (lacks identity)
4. Staff (just needs mild buffs)Rest are fine.

For traitlines:

1. Salvation
2. Retribution
3. Herald
4. CorruptionDevastation, Invocation and Renegade are fine IMO.

@"Justine.6351" said:I don't really care for the word "revamp" as its likely to end up something nobody asked for.

This. All of this

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"StabbersTheThird.6053" said:As a new player, I was about to pick up Revenant and play it (the abilities, traits, and Legends are an absolute blast), however anything I tried to do seemed to be done better elsewhere.

When I tried to build Condition, Core Warrior (at least for me) was both higher dps and uptime than my Kalla/Malyx combo.When I went Shiro for damage with Glint backup (starting a fight with "free" buffs is better than I thought), I found that my Deadeye did more work and safer with stealth available as well. At times, I found myself wishing I could just put Shiro on both sides (and to an extent I did, I shoved Malyx over Glint as a way to shred boons and reduce incoming condition damage).I can't really understand the purpose of Jalis or Ventari honestly.

All of this was to say, that from my super newbie perspective I think the list of changes from most to least would be:VentariJalisGlintKallaMalyxShiro

This probably isn't something I should comment on, being new and all- I just wanted to toss my hat in the ring. I almost started to main this super cool smoke soldier, but every time I thought I found a build someone told me X did it better. Then I tried it, and indeed X did it better.

Edit: I should probably add this was all from a PvP perspective. Ventari and Jalis are practically useless to me there (I don't want to take damage, and I don't trust my teammates to position around my heals), Glint was both too complicated and too weak for me to use in my power build which is why it's above Kalla which (surprisingly) worked there, Malyx is down because of buff removal, and Shiro is at the bottom because its just so gosh darn good.

This sums things up very accurately for me.

As a returning player, I decided to park my Thief (which had PVE struggles when I left) and experience the game again from the start as a Revenant. I was hoping to build for that kind of evil magic using warrior like the EQ Shadowknight or WoW Deathknight. I mention this because obviously this is a different game, but that expectation was there. I thought Mallyx would be the natural path to accompanying this feel.

Instead what I find is a class with no identity, hamstrung by a strange, counter-intuitive energy system with ridiculous costs and where the Legends are not complimentary at all and the class feels inherently frail for a heavy armour class. The design decisions made are poor and the overall vision lacking, or incredibly badly implemented.

I started off with a Shiro/Mallyx build in open world PVE as they both seemed damage focused legends. However they as Shiro is Power and Mallyx condition, they are not complimentary in regards to gearing and equipping for. Neither have any real effective survival skills and I could barely use any skills due to the Energy costs. The upkeep skills and weapon costs frequently meant I had not enough energy to stun break or cleanse when needed. In addition I felt so frail I was obliged to take Assassin's Annihilation to sustain myself as a melee class, but that skill does not sync with the Mallyx abilities. Charged Mists feels obligatory because of the poor design in regards to Energy costs and 50% cap on switch.

If I opted to take Mace/Axes as a secondary weapon, or Staff, then I had no range option for those fights where that is the required or safest option. This left me with the Warhammer as default until I could learn Renegade, however Warhammer is a very poor and lacking ranged option in regards to damage. The couldown of the 3rd and 5th attacks, along with the energy cost once again and low damage makes it a very poor DPS output. So the choice in regards to weapon selection is poor.

Jalis seems OK until you realise that the stun break is on the Elite and costs 40% of Energy - that's 90% of your starting energy to break a stun with a damage reduction buff. Who thought that was good design? The Taunt skill is lack luster and hammers is good when combined with Assassins Annihilation but that's effectively it.

Ventari is really a mess, it's just ineffective in regards to healing and protection when compared to the options other classes have, but once again Energy management hamstrings acting like a healer.

In my opinion the class needs a full redesign, starting with 50% Energy is not good design when 3 of the weapon skills have energy costs, the main damage skills are upkeep based, the get out of jail skills are prohibitively expensive and weapon selection options are poor unless you own the expansions.

Add this to the fact that because the Legends are not really complimentary and thus it's impossible to gear the character to be effective in both Legends and it has real problems in a game dominated by the idea of meta-builds and power gaming.

Edit: In effect the developers have made a hybrid class within a gear and skill system that punishes hybrids.