Raid difficulty and challenge motes - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid difficulty and challenge motes

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  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @That Guy.5704 said:
    I completely understand ANet's position. I really do. If it means that more raids can be put out when they dont have to worry about different difficulties, then absolutely focus on new content.

    On the other hand, I also completely understand that while raid encounters are not meant to be accessible by everyone, more people would like to get in and get a taste of the general encounters and see the story and I know that nearly all the story is outside of the encounters. I know that the following wont happen, but just going to leave it here as an "if I could" idea.

    Easy mote: Increases outgoing damage and condition damage by 33%, decreases incoming damage and condition damage by 33%. Encounters remain the same. Maybe even bigger damage increase/reduction numbers, whatever. Rewards per boss: 2 champ bags 2 bags of gear once a week. Thats it. This wouldnt be something anyone should want to repeat, but would let most people get the encounters done to see whats going on without actually giving them access to any meaningful rewards apart from the story. Doing something like this would allow more core stories to be told. As I remember the Saul story almost didnt make it because it may have been too "core". Also, easy mode shouldnt be available in the newest wing and should only show up once the following wing is released so that first kills are completed on normal mode.

    If you had done the actual raids you would know thats not a solution. Some mechanics instakill and aren't simply based on the amount of damage you take or do. Like the flame wall at sabetha, the orbs at KC, the green circles at KC, the mines at escort, leaving Glenna during escort. All things that have nothing to do with damage taken/received that will effectively end, your run.

    As for what people would 'like'. I think thats part of the problem. People would 'like' a lot of things. It does not mean attempting to give them said things is a wise or warranted decision. As history has shown time and time again, those who wish for things, but aren't really going to work for them, probably didn't actually want said thing. They just think they did, and lost interest when it was given.

  • I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be **NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

  • @Cyrus.2607 said:
    I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be **NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

    Refer to my post above. It's not as simple as that.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭

    @That Guy.5704 said:
    I completely understand ANet's position. I really do. If it means that more raids can be put out when they dont have to worry about different difficulties, then absolutely focus on new content.

    On the other hand, I also completely understand that while raid encounters are not meant to be accessible by everyone, more people would like to get in and get a taste of the general encounters and see the story and I know that nearly all the story is outside of the encounters. I know that the following wont happen, but just going to leave it here as an "if I could" idea.

    Easy mote: Increases outgoing damage and condition damage by 33%, decreases incoming damage and condition damage by 33%. Encounters remain the same. Maybe even bigger damage increase/reduction numbers, whatever. Rewards per boss: 2 champ bags 2 bags of gear once a week. Thats it. This wouldnt be something anyone should want to repeat, but would let most people get the encounters done to see whats going on without actually giving them access to any meaningful rewards apart from the story. Doing something like this would allow more core stories to be told. As I remember the Saul story almost didnt make it because it may have been too "core". Also, easy mode shouldnt be available in the newest wing and should only show up once the following wing is released so that first kills are completed on normal mode.

    Why they don't want to do this was just addressed though. This isn't want raids were designed for and putting in this effort distracts from the vision they have for raids in gw2

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so. I have no desire for an easier version of the raid, nor would I care if that eventually becomes your agenda due to these requests for it. I just want an easier way to get into the raids as they are now with 9 other people.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

  • @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @Cyrus.2607 said:
    I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be **NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

    Refer to my post above. It's not as simple as that.

    Good points there but while Sab's flame wall is an insta kill, how will that interact with a special status invul? It could be that based on a priority, this does not happen if invul or something similar is present. I've no idea what the code actually is underlying so this it just me talking based on an assumption. I've not done KC before (only W1 , W4 and escort) but Glenna during escort could be given the exact same invul status. Any friendly chars going forward could get it as well. As long as nothing goes through this one invul status and the only way to get it is via interacting with an "Easy Mote" whilst disabling rewards, it can be applied to any and all raid encounters. The idea is only so that the raid dev team can focus on raids while having the same method of exposing the story without creating watered down mechanics.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Slice Of Life.9712 said:
    The barrier to experiencing these stories might be lower than you'd expect. There is indeed a good deal of effort required to get into raiding and to clear the bosses if you have never concentrated on playing your class in a way that maximizes its potential, but it is worth it.

    The concept of a low-skill-story-version-raid with zero rewards doesn't offend me, but if it isn't in the vision of what the devs have for raids, you should either watch a lore video about them or go practice on the golem.

    True, and I do. But just because YOU know your class, and the rotations and the mechanics, can you carry 9 others that don't? Or even 5-7 that don't? Because my guild tried for weeks, and me and 2-3 others had done other bosses, knew our classes, looked up rotations and helped all the other people in the raid to look up rotations and explain the mechanics of VG, still after 4-6 weeks, only saw phase 2, three times. I think that's where it is still iffy in many peoples minds. For the people who havn't done it yet, they keep hearing about all these huge gates and bars and hoops they have to jump through (some designed by Anet themselves, and others because of players) in order to even STEP into raids, and even then its not 100% after 2 hours, you even have the wing cleared, let alone the first boss down. (After 2 hours, we didn't even have VG down, and yes after that, it broke apart, and the guy leading it left.) And if they water down the base mode, the elite raiders will get BEYOND bored, but the CM don't give a better reward outside of the first time run. So imo, they need to lower the base mode dps checks and enrage timers, leave the mechanics as is, (and possibly the rewards also) and make CM repeatable daily for the elite raiders. I think those 3 changes would bring ALOT to making sure more people are running raid, and more offen, even the elite ones who have full legendary armor already. B)

  • Well, that's good news to me! I was afraid raids were done after W4. Glad i was mistaken

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

    At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

    Huh.....maybe that's why these keep popping up.....people are bitter because they can't play content? Having some AR to get into the 3 new fractals (and the heartbreaker they have there :anguished: ) in t2 fractals is okish.........Not asking them to lower or remove the AR for CM100. Same thing for raids I guess? I mean does doing SO at 25 give the same reward as CM100? Nope. Maybe adapt that mindset to raids? Could work. But like you said, low people, low resources.......low output. (In either content or features or fixes.)

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

    I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

    I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Opportunities are created, not given. In other words, opportunities happen all of the time, it is up to you to do something about it. Not every opportunity will be for everyone, but there are choices in creating opportunities for yourself, as well as what opportunities that are available currently in the game. I have listed those choices below.

    1. Join a guild
    2. Build a group of friends
    3. Create your own group
    4. Join training runs (usually run later in the week, early week people are just looking for their kills)
    5. There is even an LFG in this subsection of the forums now
    6. I believe that there are raid Discord channels that you can join (someone else would have to provide that information as I do not have it)
    7. I have even seen people standing in the Aerodome asking if any groups were looking for a newbie, or willing to take one (I've seen posts on the old forums confirming that this does indeed work)

    If anyone else knows of any other methods, please feel free to add to it.

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    As someone who hasn't raided yet, I think this is the right way forward, although the accessibility thing is very important. The more players who feel encouraged and comfortable to raid, the better the future for them. Without a steady supply of new players, they risk becoming content which no longer warrants the investment in making them. I;d hate to see that since even though I haven't raided yet, I understand the need to have them as part of the health of the game.

    The other side of this is that there is a huge community of people who now play GW2 primarily to clear raids that are semi-difficult in their current implementation. Something that was said about HoT and the decision to not have vertical progression is that clearing a raid boss is an accomplishment that will not be invalidated by > @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Slice Of Life.9712 said:
    The barrier to experiencing these stories might be lower than you'd expect. There is indeed a good deal of effort required to get into raiding and to clear the bosses if you have never concentrated on playing your class in a way that maximizes its potential, but it is worth it.

    The concept of a low-skill-story-version-raid with zero rewards doesn't offend me, but if it isn't in the vision of what the devs have for raids, you should either watch a lore video about them or go practice on the golem.

    True, and I do. But just because YOU know your class, and the rotations and the mechanics, can you carry 9 others that don't? Or even 5-7 that don't? Because my guild tried for weeks, and me and 2-3 others had done other bosses, knew our classes, looked up rotations and helped all the other people in the raid to look up rotations and explain the mechanics of VG, still after 4-6 weeks, only saw phase 2, three times. I think that's where it is still iffy in many peoples minds. For the people who havn't done it yet, they keep hearing about all these huge gates and bars and hoops they have to jump through (some designed by Anet themselves, and others because of players) in order to even STEP into raids, and even then its not 100% after 2 hours, you even have the wing cleared, let alone the first boss down. (After 2 hours, we didn't even have VG down, and yes after that, it broke apart, and the guy leading it left.) And if they water down the base mode, the elite raiders will get BEYOND bored, but the CM don't give a better reward outside of the first time run. So imo, they need to lower the base mode dps checks and enrage timers, leave the mechanics as is, (and possibly the rewards also) and make CM repeatable daily for the elite raiders. I think those 3 changes would bring ALOT to making sure more people are running raid, and more offen, even the elite ones who have full legendary armor already. B)

    It sounds like a guild problem more than a you problem to me. I had a similar experience. I wanted to raid with the people I had been playing with for 4 years, but they were wvw and pve players and wanted to play together, but had trouble taking it seriously enough to get clears. Only 2-3 of us really had put in the effort and no, it wasn't enough dps or support to drag 7-8 others through their sloppy mechanics.

    You need like-willed people to accomplish anything in raids. It's a negative if you're not willing to adjust to that, but it's a positive if you are. More than 2 inexperienced people in any pull will cause a lot of problems.

    Also - now that we are 4 wings into the GW2 raid era, if you ever try again, don't start with VG. It's the first boss so you might be tempted, but you'll have a lot better luck training for raids if you start with w3 or w4 and the things you learn will help you get back to VG a little later.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    That is disappointing - and something I feel confident you will, even if you oppose the idea of, eventually have to reconsider.

    With your comments in mind, however, you need to be very mindful of lore and story/narrative. Designing fights that are meant for a smaller group is bad enough. Locking interesting story or lore behind that design (even if you try to call it a side story) is a very bad direction to go - and something that will alienate a lot of people from not just raids, but GW2 as a whole.

    This just isn't true. They are side stories. They have said from the start what the direction on raids is and will be, they did not make them to be accessible without effort.
    But that's not to say that these stories are not accessible to any one and everyone? Assuming you do not raid, what steps have you taken to get into raiding ? All of us were beginners at some point. All it takes is alittle motivation and effort and you can jump into a training run, get the experience and then get your first kill. All it takes is for people to apply themselves. Raids are really much more accessible then people imagine. Arenanet designed them so those that want to apply themselves can, and those that don't want to can choose not to.

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Opportunities are created, not given. In other words, opportunities happen all of the time, it is up to you to do something about it. Not every opportunity will be for everyone, but there are choices in creating opportunities for yourself, as well as what opportunities that are available currently in the game. I have listed those choices below.

    1. Join a guild
    2. Build a group of friends
    3. Create your own group
    4. Join training runs (usually run later in the week, early week people are just looking for their kills)
    5. There is even an LFG in this subsection of the forums now
    6. I believe that there are raid Discord channels that you can join (someone else would have to provide that information as I do not have it)
    7. I have even seen people standing in the Aerodome asking if any groups were looking for a newbie, or willing to take one (I've seen posts on the old forums confirming that this does indeed work)

    If anyone else knows of any other methods, please feel free to add to it.

    1. I made a couple posts on the Reddit/in game looking for a raiding guild, they don't want someone that isn't "EXP."
    2. I have 4 friends, none of them are geared or at the point to be able to do raiding, if they are actually good enough to do it (at least 2 of them aren't).
    3. Just make a 1/10 pug group for a raid? I've considered attempting it, but also feel like I will be called an idiot as soon as I mess something up as the leader (no experience) or get a bunch of people in green gear because I said "first timers."
    4. I've addressed this in my previous post.
    5. This might be a possibility if it's any better than the in-game LFG, which isn't accomplishing anything right now for me (all the groups want experience and/or purposely use tons of acronyms to keep out people that aren't experienced).
    6. Same as a training group, or people that want experience only.
    7. I actually downed the "escort" raid and unlocked the mastery because two players were kind enough to take me for it, and we did it no problem, but that's just one fight out of many.
  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Crevox.5806 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

    I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

    I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

    LOL no dude. You NEED training. I don't care how much you think you know about the raids. If you have never done them, and never raided and killed a boss then you need it. There is no shortcut. And its insulting to everyone here to sit here and think because you 'think' you are a skilled player and are a vet to MMO's that somehow removes that need. Reread that last paragraph, because it sounds deluted.

    I have hundreds of MMO's under my belt, and i would never spew such hubris. It's easy to out damage everyone in pug fractals btw. So that doesn't mean very much.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Nafets.1238 said:
    I reported this and ask a moderator to close it. It has been specified that no "EZ MODE" raids will come, but they are focusing on problems such as "how can I gather more people to do this content".

    I know EZ MODE isn't incoming, didn't they devs say that like a year ago? But a idea, did just come to me. Lower the dps checks and enrage timers, leave the mechanics as is. Yeah, they have more dodging to do if they don't have the dps, but at least they can see the content and storylines and don't need the meta stuff for it. Also, nerf the rewards, so people don't just float to the path of least resistance, but so people can learn the mechanics without a time stress, THEN if they want the rewards for legendary armor/ascended armor drops, they go into the time limits, know your dps meta rotations with the same mechanics you learned. Seems like a good compromise, plus all Anet needs to change is a timer right? Correct me if I'm wrong Anet. :)

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    LOL no dude. You NEED training. I don't care how much you think you know about the raids. If you have never done them, and never raided and killed a boss then you need it. There is no shortcut. And its insulting to everyone here to sit here and think because you 'think' you are a skilled player and are a vet to MMO's that somehow removes that need.

    Standing in a green circle, dodging blue circles, and moving to specific sections of the arena depending on your role is baby tier compared to raids in WoW (mythic) or FFXIV (savage). Yeah, I know it's the first boss, but I also can't even get into a group for it.

    Those games also do not do or need "training" runs. This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭

    I don't think any resources should be spent to make raids or party building more accessible, really. You will always find people that want to achieve the same goal, maybe you have to invest something gear wise or look in the lfg for longer, but really, there is always a way.

    As for the difficulty in raids i think the two major problems are:

    1. The "speed" in the raids. Most encounters have rather few and "slow" mechanics and attacks. The mechanics are mostly tied to a few key positions, and the boss uses an ability every 10 seconds or so. This ends up to mindless skill rotation spam most of the time. Why cant bosses have quicker and more frequent mechanics and attacks? For the most part a lot of encounters are moving, spamming dps rotations and dodge every 10 seconds when mechanic X occurs. That feels like so much wasted potential

    2. How the encounters are built. Most encounter introduce more mechanics, the further the health of the boss drops. In my impression, the bosses really only get "somewhat" challenging at the last 33% - 25% of life, this is where the real bossfight begins. See Sabetha, Gorseval, etc.

    The overall pace here is sooooo sluggish for this wonderfull and quick combat system GW2 has in place, you dont need slow boss attacks with a 4 second visual tell, 1,5 seconds is enough. Why aren't there more random attacks in between these tells? Most bosses do a set amount of auto attacks, before using mechanic X, why cant they have a pool of 3 or 5 attacks with different patterns or mechanics they do randomly, both in number and quantity, between the main mechanics? These don't have to be oneshotting or a mechanic in itself, just to make the fight less static and predictable.

    The boss fight i like the most up to date is Matthias. This is the only boss that feels kinda upredictable mechanic wise. Sure, some of the AOE effects are still too slow for my taste and the attacks feel too scripted, but its still the most fun encounters.

    I think raid's for the most part are still in children's shoes based on whats theoreticly possible and i hope ANET will start to introduce real quallenging and quicker encounters somewhere in the future.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @That Guy.5704 said:
    I completely understand ANet's position. I really do. If it means that more raids can be put out when they dont have to worry about different difficulties, then absolutely focus on new content.

    On the other hand, I also completely understand that while raid encounters are not meant to be accessible by everyone, more people would like to get in and get a taste of the general encounters and see the story and I know that nearly all the story is outside of the encounters. I know that the following wont happen, but just going to leave it here as an "if I could" idea.

    Easy mote: Increases outgoing damage and condition damage by 33%, decreases incoming damage and condition damage by 33%. Encounters remain the same. Maybe even bigger damage increase/reduction numbers, whatever. Rewards per boss: 2 champ bags 2 bags of gear once a week. Thats it. This wouldnt be something anyone should want to repeat, but would let most people get the encounters done to see whats going on without actually giving them access to any meaningful rewards apart from the story. Doing something like this would allow more core stories to be told. As I remember the Saul story almost didnt make it because it may have been too "core". Also, easy mode shouldnt be available in the newest wing and should only show up once the following wing is released so that first kills are completed on normal mode.

    ^^^ This. Similar to my idea, but just slightly better I think. And yes agreed about new raids, there should not be a reduction to it when it has the extra gold buff, until its removed and placed on the new one.

  • That Guy.5704That Guy.5704 Member ✭✭

    @Pingu.8431 said:
    I mean nothing is stopping them from currently "getting a taste of the general encounters and seeing the story". All they need to do is watch a few videos, fix their build and ask for help which people are more than happy to do. It generates discussion and gives purpose. All it really takes is some initiative and an open mind.

    Your're right, and thats typically the answer I give to people that complain raids are too hard primarily because there is no better option. I personally dont need an easy mode. I am 4 insights from enough for my 18th piece of legendary armor. My group would do CMs repeatedly if we had a reason to. But looking at it from the other side, I think it does warrant more consideration than alot of people on the forums and reddit are willing to give it (not ANet, specifically because I am sure they have considered it). My specific suggestion doesnt ask to rebalance the actual encounter and has nearly no physical reward, so even if it does somehow result in a bad balance, its not something that is really exploitable for anything meaningful (you would get more out of fractal 40). I'd personally like to see those 10 people who never wanted to get into real raids for whatever reason try the easy mode for the story and then say "hey, that was fun, want to try some other ones?" and later "anyone want to try them on normal?". basically nudging them into real raids. But again, if it doesnt happen and this would take too much away from real raid dev time, thats fine with me.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭

    @Crevox.5806 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

    I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

    I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

    This mindset of "I'm better then learning" or" I shouldn't have to" is what keeps people from getting into raiding.
    You do have to. I had to. Everyone who has killed a raid had to. You need the motivation to learn.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    I really just dislike the idea of challenge motes all together. Translating new mechanics into a raid that could have been there to Begin with feels really restrictive from a design point of view. Why try balancing the difficulty of two separate pieces, and leaving out mechanics you obviously care enough about, just to make another tier of difficulty with those mechanics? It seems alittle redundant to make a CM for every encounter in a wing. A few here and there seems good but not a whole wing

    To add challenge for the people who want it. I think its a good thing, even if I can't do them now or for another year, I will hopefully get there. Also, they should make them repeatable, like Nightmare mode in SWTOR.

  • Well, it's good to see a post on this - even if I disagree.

    I've played consistently since launch, I have multiple characters kitted out in ascended gear and know my way around both combat in this game and raids encounters in others. However, around HoT release, I was unable to devote a large amount of uninterrupted time to raiding. Even to this day, I can't promise that I'll be on at a certain time on a certain day. And while I am a capable player, my friends are either not skilled enough or not interested in this game's raids. All together, this means that I don't have a stash of LIs to get into PUGs, I'm not suitable for a static group and I can't just gather up some friends/guildies and tackle a raid whenever we feel like it. I've joined training guilds, only for the other trainees to fail mechanics or output so little dps that the trainers give up and let the guild die. I've tried.

    I'm a skilled enough player who would love to do some raiding, but can't. No, this isn't a "woe is me" kind of post - these things happen and it kitten. However, when raid design was being discussed with Anet on the old forums, there were constant warnings about gating (either by the game's systems or the playerbase) and the toxicity/elitism that can occur; we did ask Anet to consider ways to reduce these if at all possible. Here we are now with an item, LIs, which exist as a gating mechanism for the playerbase and no real tools to help people get into the scene. We rely purely on the kindness of a few players who try to teach and help groups to form, but the demand far exceeds the supply.

    If a player wants to start raiding today, it's down to pot luck or connections whether they can even have a realistic chance to succeed down the line. I'm not talking about killing the boss on the first attempt - I just mean about being able to be a part of the raiding community. Even if a group of newbies tries and tries for that first kill... that one LI won't get them into groups. Twenty won't. They'll struggle at fifty. There's other things such as build diversity and balance which is also far from perfect, but that's not really what this thread is about so I'll leave it there as a mention. At any rate; I, personally, wouldn't mind slower development on content if it meant that tools/systems were put in place to help more people experience that content. To established raiders, this means less content for them - that's not great for them and I appreciate that. However, for the rest of us, it means we go from zero raid content to... well... raid content. The developers' future content will be experienced by even more players and be even more worthwhile to the game.

    Anyway, that's enough rambling from me. On other games, I was the kind of person who'd help train up entire clans/guilds/whatevers to get into end game content. Here I'm just another scrub who needs to git gud because raids must be too difficult for me.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    That is disappointing - and something I feel confident you will, even if you oppose the idea of, eventually have to reconsider.

    With your comments in mind, however, you need to be very mindful of lore and story/narrative. Designing fights that are meant for a smaller group is bad enough. Locking interesting story or lore behind that design (even if you try to call it a side story) is a very bad direction to go - and something that will alienate a lot of people from not just raids, but GW2 as a whole.

    This just isn't true. They are side stories. They have said from the start what the direction on raids is and will be, they did not make them to be accessible without effort.
    But that's not to say that these stories are not accessible to any one and everyone? Assuming you do not raid, what steps have you taken to get into raiding ? All of us were beginners at some point. All it takes is alittle motivation and effort and you can jump into a training run, get the experience and then get your first kill. All it takes is for people to apply themselves. Raids are really much more accessible then people imagine. Arenanet designed them so those that want to apply themselves can, and those that don't want to can choose not to.

    There is no such thing as a "side story" in a game like this. It is a semantic term they use to make you think it is something people interested in the "main story" would not find interesting - which, of course, is nonsense. Using the same logic, you could call the Balthazar arc a side story to the fight against the dragons, or the season one conflict with Scarlett or the upcoming arcs associated with the necromancer in the desert.

    MMOs are not linear storytelling devices. They are meant to be living breathing worlds with the many conflicts and stories you find in such a world.

    As far as accessibility, the thing that people like to forget is that difficulty is subjective - and when you add in preferred playstyles, unique builds (that may stray significantly from the meta but that people may still enjoy), it becomes even more subjective. Creating difficult content doesn't just make that content difficulty in a game like this - it pretty much says "play this way or you will either fail or, at best, find the experience extremely frustrating (and by default, make it frustrating for others at the same time").

    the resource issue is a fair one, but the use of challenge motes proves that they can develop two difficulties for the same fight with the effort put into wing four (with Crystal even admitting that she was happy with the harder difficulty). Simply make the CM repeatable in cases like that and the issue is resolved.

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

    I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

    I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

    This mindset of "I'm better then learning" or" I shouldn't have to" is what keeps people from getting into raiding.
    You do have to. I had to. Everyone who has killed a raid had to. You need the motivation to learn.

    I did learn. Stacking in green circles and dodging blue aoes that occur infrequently is not difficult, nor are the rest of the mechanics of the fight. I know most of this game is casual and easy, but concepts and mechanics like this are not difficult to me. Throw me into a run to give it a try and I'll execute it without issue. I don't even care if I have to do a training run, but like I said, there are hundreds of people trying to get into "training runs" and very few people actually putting them together.

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Crevox.5806 said:

    LOL no dude. You NEED training. I don't care how much you think you know about the raids. If you have never done them, and never raided and killed a boss then you need it. There is no shortcut. And its insulting to everyone here to sit here and think because you 'think' you are a skilled player and are a vet to MMO's that somehow removes that need.

    Standing in a green circle, dodging blue circles, and moving to specific sections of the arena depending on your role is baby tier compared to raids in WoW (mythic) or FFXIV (savage). Yeah, I know it's the first boss, but I also can't even get into a group for it.

    Those aren't the only mechanics of the fight dude. There are VG groups all the time. If you can't find a group, there is a reason for it. I get kicked from training groups for being too experienced...that's just how many groups there are.

    You are trying to put the cart before the horse, and the simple fact you are here trying to tell me how simple the fight is, rather than going out there and doing that is what i mean. I am not the one you need to be proving yourself to, the raid groups are. But you don't want to do that. Which is why you are here instead of raiding.

    EDIT: Also you claim to know the mechanics....Whats stopping you from putting your own run together? You know the mechanics...or so you claim.

  • That Guy.5704That Guy.5704 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    If you had done the actual raids....

    lul

    I guess I should edit this..... My 746 insights says I have done them once or twice

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