Raid difficulty and challenge motes - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid difficulty and challenge motes

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  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12

    For me the sweetspot is in how the Tier 4 of the new fractals with a challenge mode are done

    The normal mode is not easy, if you want it easier you go T1, T2 or T3. But the less forgiving mechanics are toned down slightly. And then there's the challenge mote that goes way beyond that, and has daily repeatable bonus rewards, and has no room for forgiveness.

    ☆ SUGGEST-A-TRON

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    I think this is a mistake, and a big one for that matter.

    There's multiple types of players, and you can't satisfy all of them with a single mode. I know plenty people who want raids to be harder, and plenty who want them to be easier. Fractals of the Mists handled these kind of different players really well, by adding multiple difficulty levels. That's the right way to go.

    Raids need difficulty modes.

    • Easy: For learning purposes. Rewards are irrelevant, they can be removed for all that matters. New players should be able to clear raids with this mode somewhat easily, and learn the basic mechanics before getting to normal mode. Enrage timers and insta-kill mechanics would be disabled.
    • Normal: The current difficulty, plus some of the challenge motes (which should have been part of the encounters anyway).
    • Hard: A nightmare where only the best of the best can progress, the true hardcore content of the game. Something you need 10 top players to beat, and if 1 dies, you're really screwed.

    Without difficulty modes, there is always going to be someone unhappy with raids. It's no secret things like escort and trio are there for new players, and that's definitely not the way to handle them. Veteran raiders don't want filler like that, they want real bosses with real difficulty. Hardcore raiders need something more, too. 4-man raid bosses is a disgrace for what is supposed to be the hardest content of the game.

    If you want raids to be popular, and thus worth the development effort, you need more players. You can get them by annoying veteran raiders with kitten events, or you can give us difficulty modes where everyone stays in their lane, and everyone enjoys raids on their own way. You can either go full hardcore, and alienate new players, or you can try to integrate easy encounters for the new players, and alienate hardcores.

    Every single MMO out there has difficulty modes for raids, and it works. I want harder raids, because the current difficulty mode bores me, and I want easier raids, so I can get guildmates to try them and learn them at their own pace. Everyone wins.

    Raids in this game aren't designed to make everyone happy, nor should they be. They are designed purely for the challenge. Will there be people that it is too much of a challenge for? Yes, they know that. Will there be people that find the challenge too easy? Yes, they know that too. However, raids are not the main selling point of this game. They are exactly what Anet said that they would be, Challenging Group Content. Within the context of the rest of the game, they are exactly that.

    The other games that you are mentioning that have multiple levels of difficulty for raids, have that because the story usually guides players to the raid, and is integral to the story. The raids in this game are purely there for a niche role, challenging group content. Not, Variable Challenging Group content.

    And finally, Raids are very popular, within their niche. When you have a niche product, and it's a success, you stick with it, you don't change it (moreso, when it's a niche product within a larger product, like raids are in GW2). Yes, they could change it, and do more with it, but they have a different vision for raids and the game overall, which is raids remaining as niche content, while the open world is the main content (content that they make for everyone).

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    The cost effective argument is kinda negated by the introduction of challenge motes into raids. This is especially true when Crystal makes the statement "The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty." If that is the case, tune the regular version for a larger audience and just make the CMs repeatable and call it a day. If they are happy with the difficulty of the CM on what they agree is one of the easiest fights, that seems like it addresses the issue nicely.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    The cost effective argument is kinda negated by the introduction of challenge motes into raids. This is especially true when Crystal makes the statement "The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty." If that is the case, tune the regular version for a larger audience and just make the CMs repeatable and call it a day. If they are happy with the difficulty of the CM on what they agree is one of the easiest fights, that seems like it addresses the issue nicely.

    I took Crystal's statement to mean that they felt that the normal MO fight should have been CM level or just below, while the CM could have been more difficult.

    And it is a cost effective argument. There are only so many resources for raids (read: a small team or two). Had the CM's not been done, more polish could have been put on the singular difficulty levels, for a better overall feel, and it could have possibly been released much sooner than the 9 months it took. When you only have so many resources, there is only so much that you can do with the time that you have. If it isn't enough, you either allow for more time or hire more resources for it, neither of which appear to interest Anet in doing. And I can understand that, they are by and large, a huge success, within their demographic.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    I think this is a mistake, and a big one for that matter.

    There's multiple types of players, and you can't satisfy all of them with a single mode. I know plenty people who want raids to be harder, and plenty who want them to be easier. Fractals of the Mists handled these kind of different players really well, by adding multiple difficulty levels. That's the right way to go.

    Raids need difficulty modes.

    • Easy: For learning purposes. Rewards are irrelevant, they can be removed for all that matters. New players should be able to clear raids with this mode somewhat easily, and learn the basic mechanics before getting to normal mode. Enrage timers and insta-kill mechanics would be disabled.
    • Normal: The current difficulty, plus some of the challenge motes (which should have been part of the encounters anyway).
    • Hard: A nightmare where only the best of the best can progress, the true hardcore content of the game. Something you need 10 top players to beat, and if 1 dies, you're really screwed.

    Without difficulty modes, there is always going to be someone unhappy with raids. It's no secret things like escort and trio are there for new players, and that's definitely not the way to handle them. Veteran raiders don't want filler like that, they want real bosses with real difficulty. Hardcore raiders need something more, too. 4-man raid bosses is a disgrace for what is supposed to be the hardest content of the game.

    If you want raids to be popular, and thus worth the development effort, you need more players. You can get them by annoying veteran raiders with kitten events, or you can give us difficulty modes where everyone stays in their lane, and everyone enjoys raids on their own way. You can either go full hardcore, and alienate new players, or you can try to integrate easy encounters for the new players, and alienate hardcores.

    Every single MMO out there has difficulty modes for raids, and it works. I want harder raids, because the current difficulty mode bores me, and I want easier raids, so I can get guildmates to try them and learn them at their own pace. Everyone wins.

    Raids in this game aren't designed to make everyone happy, nor should they be. They are designed purely for the challenge. Will there be people that it is too much of a challenge for? Yes, they know that. Will there be people that find the challenge too easy? Yes, they know that too. However, raids are not the main selling point of this game. They are exactly what Anet said that they would be, Challenging Group Content. Within the context of the rest of the game, they are exactly that.

    The other games that you are mentioning that have multiple levels of difficulty for raids, have that because the story usually guides players to the raid, and is integral to the story. The raids in this game are purely there for a niche role, challenging group content. Not, Variable Challenging Group content.

    And finally, Raids are very popular, within their niche. When you have a niche product, and it's a success, you stick with it, you don't change it (moreso, when it's a niche product within a larger product, like raids are in GW2). Yes, they could change it, and do more with it, but they have a different vision for raids and the game overall, which is raids remaining as niche content, while the open world is the main content (content that they make for everyone).

    So, I guess you love trio and escort, then? Because that's what we'll be getting again and again instead of good bosses, because so many of you are so pointlessly against difficulty modes.

    If you think raids will remain exclusive for good players, you couldn't be more wrong. Raids, as any content, need a healthy population to be supported. They won't be wasting resources on endgame content only a few experience, when they could just make more open world casual content, and get more players, and thus more money. They will stop making raids if there's not enough people playing them.

    Difficulty modes are the only way to make sure raids stay hard. Without them, you'll keep getting easy mode bosses shoehorned in with every raid, with their good mechanics removed and put into challenge motes. They already confirmed the next raid will have two bosses and one event. That's one less boss because you don't want raids to cater to everyone on their own way.

    Without difficulty modes, we'll never get a really hard boss that can't be facerolled by hardcores. Let that sink in.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    I think this is a mistake, and a big one for that matter.

    There's multiple types of players, and you can't satisfy all of them with a single mode. I know plenty people who want raids to be harder, and plenty who want them to be easier. Fractals of the Mists handled these kind of different players really well, by adding multiple difficulty levels. That's the right way to go.

    Raids need difficulty modes.

    • Easy: For learning purposes. Rewards are irrelevant, they can be removed for all that matters. New players should be able to clear raids with this mode somewhat easily, and learn the basic mechanics before getting to normal mode. Enrage timers and insta-kill mechanics would be disabled.
    • Normal: The current difficulty, plus some of the challenge motes (which should have been part of the encounters anyway).
    • Hard: A nightmare where only the best of the best can progress, the true hardcore content of the game. Something you need 10 top players to beat, and if 1 dies, you're really screwed.

    Without difficulty modes, there is always going to be someone unhappy with raids. It's no secret things like escort and trio are there for new players, and that's definitely not the way to handle them. Veteran raiders don't want filler like that, they want real bosses with real difficulty. Hardcore raiders need something more, too. 4-man raid bosses is a disgrace for what is supposed to be the hardest content of the game.

    If you want raids to be popular, and thus worth the development effort, you need more players. You can get them by annoying veteran raiders with kitten events, or you can give us difficulty modes where everyone stays in their lane, and everyone enjoys raids on their own way. You can either go full hardcore, and alienate new players, or you can try to integrate easy encounters for the new players, and alienate hardcores.

    Every single MMO out there has difficulty modes for raids, and it works. I want harder raids, because the current difficulty mode bores me, and I want easier raids, so I can get guildmates to try them and learn them at their own pace. Everyone wins.

    Raids in this game aren't designed to make everyone happy, nor should they be. They are designed purely for the challenge. Will there be people that it is too much of a challenge for? Yes, they know that. Will there be people that find the challenge too easy? Yes, they know that too. However, raids are not the main selling point of this game. They are exactly what Anet said that they would be, Challenging Group Content. Within the context of the rest of the game, they are exactly that.

    The other games that you are mentioning that have multiple levels of difficulty for raids, have that because the story usually guides players to the raid, and is integral to the story. The raids in this game are purely there for a niche role, challenging group content. Not, Variable Challenging Group content.

    And finally, Raids are very popular, within their niche. When you have a niche product, and it's a success, you stick with it, you don't change it (moreso, when it's a niche product within a larger product, like raids are in GW2). Yes, they could change it, and do more with it, but they have a different vision for raids and the game overall, which is raids remaining as niche content, while the open world is the main content (content that they make for everyone).

    So, I guess you love trio and escort, then? Because that's what we'll be getting again and again instead of good bosses, because so many of you are so pointlessly against difficulty modes.

    If you think raids will remain exclusive for good players, you couldn't be more wrong. Raids, as any content, need a healthy population to be supported. They won't be wasting resources on endgame content only a few experience, when they could just make more open world casual content, and get more players, and thus more money. They will stop making raids if there's not enough people playing them.

    Difficulty modes are the only way to make sure raids stay hard. Without them, you'll keep getting easy mode bosses shoehorned in with every raid, with their good mechanics removed and put into challenge motes. They already confirmed the next raid will have two bosses and one event. That's one less boss because you don't want raids to cater to everyone on their own way.

    Without difficulty modes, we'll never get a really hard boss that can't be facerolled by hardcores. Let that sink in.

  • @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    This.. is actually a pretty important question.

    But I feel that most of the content isn't designed for someone's skill level. It's designed for gear. You could be the worst PvE player in the world, and still beat a raid boss because there's nothing to keep you on your toes.

  • @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

    At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

    And what's better, a not working system with more content, or a working system with less content?

  • @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I fully support the raid team focusing on pushing more raids that I like faster. That said, would it actually be possible to have the living world team deliver the story of raids? Like why use an instance only once?

    Spoilers/Example: When bloodstone fen exploded, non-raiders discovered the story of wing1-3 by reading books. Would it have been too hard to get an episode/story instance of the living world to explore a "cleared" raid instance. So episode 1, go press F at a funeral, go to rata novus, meet Canach who is looking for Caudecus. Instead of going straight to bloodstone fen, marjory mentions that she heard that a band of mercenaries (raiders) slaughtered their way through some weird cultist stuff and Caudecus might be there. I picked Marjory because she is a detective necromancer except she never actually detectives stuff. So you walk into wing 1 (not an easy mote and balanced by the living world team). Talk to marjory about bandits and white mantle connections, see river of souls (fight a few ghosts balanced by the living world team). A gorseval reforms (it's just ghosts voltroning afterall, there can be more than one and again balanced by living world team to solo). Kill that. Etc... eventually a clue at the end of wing 3 points to bloodstone fen because white mantle/lazerus is maybe resurrected and then the story continues as normal.

    TLDR: Raid team continues pushing out great content without easy mode. Casual audience also gets the story of the raids balanced by the living world team.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    So you know that raids are accessible to anyone who wants to put in the effort?

    Just because I am able to pull together and lead a raid group every week doesn't mean I have to agree with the raiding model in the game.

    I lead a guild with more than 150 active members (more than 250 have logged on in the past two weeks). I raid with approximately 12 of those people for four hours spread across two nights each week.

    But I also know many more who would enjoy raids in a less intensive format. It isn't because they kitten at the game. It isn't because they are lazy. It is just that they enjoy the game in different ways - and, to be honest, I would enjoy playing that content in a less intensive format with them.

    And, the idea that those people - my friends that I enjoy playing with - will not enjoy aspects of the story because of what I believe to be faulty and restrictive design is, at the very minimum, depressing.

    Like most things, it isn't a black and white issue - and just because someone raids doesn't mean they agree with the model Anet uses.

    Million times this. I have friends who are absolute beasts at the game, and friends who are pretty casual. I can play fractals with all of them, but I can't play raids with the casual ones, and that's very depressing, for everyone involved.

    Training isn't useful, because most of them don't have the correct gear to begin with. Ascended is hard to get if you don't play often enough, and many stats are very expensive to craft too. Exotics work most of the time, but they're super expensive to craft as well, and you can't expect poor people to spend all their money for just a training session.

    I want raids harder than what we have now, and I want raids easier than what we have now. I want both things, because I want a real challenge, but I want to play with my noob friends and teach them to raid too.

    Something like this would have zero negative impact on raids.

    @DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I fully support the raid team focusing on pushing more raids that I like faster. That said, would it actually be possible to have the living world team deliver the story of raids? Like why use an instance only once?

    Spoilers/Example: When bloodstone fen exploded, non-raiders discovered the story of wing1-3 by reading books. Would it have been too hard to get an episode/story instance of the living world to explore a "cleared" raid instance. So episode 1, go press F at a funeral, go to rata novus, meet Canach who is looking for Caudecus. Instead of going straight to bloodstone fen, marjory mentions that she heard that a band of mercenaries (raiders) slaughtered their way through some weird cultist stuff and Caudecus might be there. I picked Marjory because she is a detective necromancer except she never actually detectives stuff. So you walk into wing 1 (not an easy mote and balanced by the living world team). Talk to marjory about bandits and white mantle connections, see river of souls (fight a few ghosts balanced by the living world team). A gorseval reforms (it's just ghosts voltroning afterall, there can be more than one and again balanced by living world team to solo). Kill that. Etc... eventually a clue at the end of wing 3 points to bloodstone fen because white mantle/lazerus is maybe resurrected and then the story continues as normal.

    TLDR: Raid team continues pushing out great content without easy mode. Casual audience also gets the story of the raids balanced by the living world team.

    That would have been the ideal solution for the story problems of Forsaken Thicket in relationship to Living World season 3. The White Mantle came out of nowhere for a lot of people, and a story mission dealing with the raid aftermath would have been perfect to clear things up.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    As of now the 2 fractal cms they have added are on par and in cases harder than the actual raids. Is this an issue with the fractals being to hard or raids just turning abit easier? Id love to hear because i absolutely love the cm's and how they bring raid lvl challenge for 5 man groups while they dont detrack from the t4 overall difficulty.

  • smitske.4912smitske.4912 Member ✭✭

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    Hijacking a bit here but your post is the prime example of why showing the avatar for upvotes/downvotes/helpful is a terrible idea. It just becomes too much.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Without difficulty modes, we'll never get a really hard boss that can't be facerolled by hardcores. Let that sink in.

    I have, and that is OK.

    Raids are niche content in this game (READ: not meant to cater to every taste, or specifically the extremes, those that want easier vs harder). I am ok with them staying that way, as I do not want to see this turn into a raid-centric game. Yes, they could make the different mods, but that isn't the vision that they have for their version of raids, and their vision does not have to follow what others have done. Is it a bad choice? Perhaps, only time will tell. Right now, it is saying that they are a success.

    Edit: To add, I thoroughly enjoy all of the bosses, except Xera. Buggy/laggy leylines are what kill it for me, otherwise the fight is fun. I enjoy the easier fights of Trio and Escort (for those I usually take the solo role, back warg/mortars, or one run of Trio I was solo chrono, so I ended up doing bees, pulling mobs, letting out wargs, and then the flame barrels for Nutella), as well as the more difficult fights like Matt and Diemos.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @SkullProX.7083 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

    At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

    And what's better, a not working system with more content, or a working system with less content?

    The current system works. Maybe not for everyone, but then that fits right in with what Crystal said that their expectations were. If the system didn't work, then people wouldn't be clearing full raid bosss weekly.

    So to answer your question, I'll take the already existing system, that works, and more content.

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭

    Reading that next wing goes back to w1 difficulty really put a smile on my face. Especially after how ez w4 was.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Voujs.6942 said:
    2. ** they have difficulty scales and scaled loot **(of course). Player that dont know raids (casuals, pugs, call them whatever you want) dont do them because of it. They should have access to ALL the content of the game (they are paying for it, right?)

    They should hopefully realize that with raids in this game, they are paying for Challenging group content. Access is purchased with HoT, and everyone that purchased it has equal access.

    @Voujs.6942 said:
    (and NO, the excuse that "we dont have the staff to do it so we are not doing it" is not valid.

    It is when you don't want it to be a large part of your game. Some people want raids to have a much larger part in the game, others don't, Anet in particular doesn't want them to.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭

    There needs to be a way for the very many "not interested in challenging content" players of the game to access Legendary armor though.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    There needs to be a way for the very many "not interested in challenging content" players of the game to access Legendary armor though.

    There is, WvW and PvP. They both have their own attainable Legendary set.

  • hoeppy.4567hoeppy.4567 Member ✭✭

    @OnizukaBR.8537 said:
    Wing 4 dificulty is arleady a borderline, if they make it any more easier it would just kill the feeling of raiding, and i bet it would affect the CM. Because is way harder to design a fight if you have to worry how to translate it from very easy to hardcore, i bet many really cool mechanics would never come to life if that was something they need to worry about.

    You're thinking the wrong direction. I obviously don't know how ANet does their encounter design, but as far as I know you design the hardest difficulty first and remove mechanics or tune down numbers to make it easier.

    I agree with your sentiment, though.

  • MashMash.1645MashMash.1645 Member ✭✭

    @Voujs.6942 said:
    Why do you guys think that WoW is know for its raids?
    1. They are well polished. I have done some raids in gw2 and they are not very well polished, the movement of the boss, the hitbox of the attacks, the phases, they should be more visible (visibility dont means less difficulty, its means better experience)
    2. ** they have difficulty scales and scaled loot (of course). Player that dont know raids (casuals, pugs, call them whatever you want) dont do them because of it. They should have access to ALL the content of the game (they are paying for it, right?) but you should do that without punishing the hardcorenolife players. its not that hard, rework your LFG and you get 2 problems at once. (its even easier in gw2 cuz we dont have the holy trinity game type, so its basically a easier raid for casual to know the mechanics and play the whole game content)
    3. **Boss aren't just big lifeless mobs that drop loot, they make some funny comments or wanna kill your parents
    (it doesnt add much but it fells nicer than a giant dude that attacks).

    (and NO, the excuse that "we dont have the staff to do it so we are not doing it" is not valid. we are the consumers, the devs make the game, we keep it alive. (that's why runescape still lives, democracy in a game isn't that bad ;) )

    You also can't do wow raids with 486 add ons. I've been watching Quin do mythic kj prog and it's hilarious how much outside game programs you need to have any chance at killing bosses at the top end.

    Astral Blade [ASTL] | I've always wondered what it would be like to go to the mists. It'll be an adventure... - Magister Sieran

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭

    @Voujs.6942 said:
    Why do you guys think that WoW is know for its raids?
    1. They are well polished. I have done some raids in gw2 and they are not very well polished, the movement of the boss, the hitbox of the attacks, the phases, they should be more visible (visibility dont means less difficulty, its means better experience)
    2. ** they have difficulty scales and scaled loot (of course). Player that dont know raids (casuals, pugs, call them whatever you want) dont do them because of it. They should have access to ALL the content of the game (they are paying for it, right?) but you should do that without punishing the hardcorenolife players. its not that hard, rework your LFG and you get 2 problems at once. (its even easier in gw2 cuz we dont have the holy trinity game type, so its basically a easier raid for casual to know the mechanics and play the whole game content)
    3. **Boss aren't just big lifeless mobs that drop loot, they make some funny comments or wanna kill your parents
    (it doesnt add much but it fells nicer than a giant dude that attacks).

    (and NO, the excuse that "we dont have the staff to do it so we are not doing it" is not valid. we are the consumers, the devs make the game, we keep it alive. (that's why runescape still lives, democracy in a game isn't that bad ;) )

    Wow's main endgame are raids. Make sense all these things would be there.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    There needs to be a way for the very many "not interested in challenging content" players of the game to access Legendary armor though.

    There is, WvW and PvP. They both have their own attainable Legendary set.

    Those are PvP methods, I'm talking PvE methods. There needs to be a way for the many GW2 players who only play PvEm, and who have NO interest in the sort of challenging content that the devs insist for Raids to have, to still have a path to those Legendary armor skins. There is no reason why they should be blocked out of the process, when they make up a larger number than those who enjoy raiding.

  • Luna.1598Luna.1598 Member ✭✭

    I'm fine with raids being difficult. What I'm not fine with is the fact it takes so many people to do them. Most of the time is spent on training groups that are more interested afk training. I'm a decent player and have done what research I can, but research and trying with "Training Groups" that have no intention of doing anything other than wasting time can only take you so far.
    I don't think its fair to people who have put in the time and effort to then lower the difficulty. Keep in mind that I have not completed a raid at all and most likely will not due to the number of people required and the time that I refuse to waste anymore.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    There needs to be a way for the very many "not interested in challenging content" players of the game to access Legendary armor though.

    There is, WvW and PvP. They both have their own attainable Legendary set.

    Those are PvP methods, I'm talking PvE methods. There needs to be a way for the many GW2 players who only play PvEm, and who have NO interest in the sort of challenging content that the devs insist for Raids to have, to still have a path to those Legendary armor skins..

    Would have helped your case to specify that you were talking about PvE.

    But, to answer you. No, there doesn't need to be another PvE way to obtain legendary armor. There isn't a legendary backpiece that can be earned through raids, not that it needs one. Just like the back pieces, there is a pve, wvw, and pvp method to obtain a legendary armor. Heck, the new Legendary acc, requires heavy investment in LW season 3, it wouldn't surprise me if WvW and PvP get an acc that requires heavy investment. The community (read: majority) wanted exclusive rewards, we will continue to receive exclusive rewards. That is a good thing for the game.

    Specifically speaking of the skin, no, it should remain exclusive to it's mode. All modes should have skins that are unique to those modes.

  • I just want to leave this thought here.....
    Raids should not be for everyone..... just as PvP is not for everyone...WvW is not for everyone...and yes...PvE is not for everyone. I like that I can raid with a group of friends or join a group from the LFG. Just as I could PvP with friends or just randomly join and the same goes for all game types. Why should raids be changed? Because wvw people want to take their wvw builds in to raids and fail? (Yes I have seen this) Because people want to take their PvE "Bear Bow" in to raids and wonder why 1) it's not dying or 2) why am I dead? (I have witnessed this was well).

    Not every game type is for everyone and I like that people that play can choose to do them all or pick what they love best about it. If you are seriously interested in learning/doing raids you will find a way.... I did this a little over a year ago and I am currently working on the last legendary armor set. If all you want is to complain about it being hard...remember....there are other parts of the game you can play that are not that hard.

    Someone stated that it should be easier so that others can get in there and do the story and map...... there is no story....no mapping .....it does not count towards map completion. Another comment i read about adding a difficulty level to it where beginners could get a 33% damage increase.... if it was that easy to get legendary insights everyone would do it that way. If it is the legendary armor you are looking for ..... WvW has a set much easier to get all you have to do is ....play WvW .

    Again... raids should be left alone.... Not every game type is for every one.....

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    There needs to be a way for the very many "not interested in challenging content" players of the game to access Legendary armor though.

    There is, WvW and PvP. They both have their own attainable Legendary set.

    Those are PvP methods, I'm talking PvE methods. There needs to be a way for the many GW2 players who only play PvEm, and who have NO interest in the sort of challenging content that the devs insist for Raids to have, to still have a path to those Legendary armor skins..

    No, there doesn't need to be another PvE way to obtain legendary armor. Specifically speaking of the skin, no, it should remain exclusive to it's mode. All modes should have skins that are unique to those modes.

    What about a different legendary PvE armor that's not obtained through raids/raidlike content?
    Yeah, i know Anet said they are not going to make a second set. Which is the main reason why people are talking about accessibility of a raid one.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    There needs to be a way for the very many "not interested in challenging content" players of the game to access Legendary armor though.

    There is, WvW and PvP. They both have their own attainable Legendary set.

    Those are PvP methods, I'm talking PvE methods. There needs to be a way for the many GW2 players who only play PvEm, and who have NO interest in the sort of challenging content that the devs insist for Raids to have, to still have a path to those Legendary armor skins..

    No, there doesn't need to be another PvE way to obtain legendary armor. Specifically speaking of the skin, no, it should remain exclusive to it's mode. All modes should have skins that are unique to those modes.

    What about a different legendary PvE armor that's not obtained through raids/raidlike content?
    Yeah, i know Anet said they are not going to make a second set. Which is the main reason why people are talking about accessibility of a raid one.

    Having a different set available through PvE, wouldn't be a bad thing. The issue that I see, unlike what they did with WvW and PvP, is which skin do they use to allow you to turn into Legendary or do they create a whole new skin? A new skin is most likely out of the question, unless it's more inline with more standard armor sets, definitely would not be animated like the current set.

  • @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

    At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

    I'm not sure whether or not this is really the reasoning she gave (the "any solution" comment referred to solutions to LFG problems, not raid difficulty), but either way it seems to me that it is a fairly unsatisfying line of reasoning. There are any number of MMOs - both those with more success and greater revenue than GW2 and those with less - which release group content at a faster pace than we get in GW2 and which provide different tiers of difficulty for that content.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 12

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    As someone who hasn't raided yet, I think this is the right way forward, although the accessibility thing is very important. The more players who feel encouraged and comfortable to raid, the better the future for them. Without a steady supply of new players, they risk becoming content which no longer warrants the investment in making them. I;d hate to see that since even though I haven't raided yet, I understand the need to have them as part of the health of the game.

    The problem with making them any easier than they are now, is that it basically dooms them to become just that. Content devoid of investment. You barely have to invest anything as now, even when you arent being entirely serious.

    People keep saying they need to be made easier or have more tiers, and I am constantly poised to force them to look at dungeons. Look at how accessible dungeons are. Look at how much was invested in their creation. And look at how much they warrant the investment in making them.

    When you make content too easy the player-base that ACTUALLY PLAYS IT isn't nearly as invested. Do you think raiders are not invested in raids? What about the people who constantly talk about how much their needs to be separate tiers, but have never raided?! How can you say anything about investment when the people who care, and are invested are actually out there raiding? That's how you know they are invested.

    You know who isn't invested? The people who post threads like this every week, saying they barely raid, and don't want to put in the work, but want all the experience of those who have. Those people are not invested. Hence they do not warrant an investment in making modified, or lower tier content 'just' to make them feel welcome. It's not healthy to tailor content to players that aren't really interested in it in the first place.

    Have those people get some raid experience and become a part of the community. Then I, and everyone else, would be more likely to listen. But by then, their opinion would probably have changed.

    I think you should re-read my post because I largely agree with you ;) although it may have been less clear my reply was in answer to the dev post which I forgot to quote

    I don't think the difficulty should be adjusted or a story mode added - and that's from the perspective of someone who hasn't raided in this game (yet). It's the accessibility I have an issue with and how hard it is to get new players to cross that threshold and join. There are a lot of factors here which is why it is hard to solve, but I don't think reducing the difficulty is the right answer for the reasons you state above.

    It's the last point you make which I was highlighting. Getting that experience to be taken seriously, when they aren't taken seriously to start with, in order to get that experience. That's just one factor of the accessibility issue

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skolops.2604 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

    At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

    I'm not sure whether or not this is really the reasoning she gave (the "any solution" comment referred to solutions to LFG problems, not raid difficulty), but either way it seems to me that it is a fairly unsatisfying line of reasoning. There are any number of MMOs - both those with more success and greater revenue than GW2 and those with less - which release group content at a faster pace than we get in GW2 and which provide different tiers of difficulty for that content.

    Those other games, if talking about Raids, are raids the prominent end game in those games? If yes, then it makes sense that they would put more effort into their raids.
    Do those other games provide niche content that not everyone enjoys? If yes, then you understand the position of raids in this game.

    Being able to release faster or not, I can't speak to as I don't develop for Anet. I do know that their engine is a modified version of the original GW engine from 2007. I do know that they have said that there is a lot of "spaghetti code". I also know every developer has their own release cycle. At one point this game had a release cycle of two weeks. That felt too hectic, while between HoT and LW3 was too long. The current pace since the start of LW3, of every 2-3 months, is a pretty good pace. For a game that caters to a casual crowd, obviously not so much to a more hardcore crowd.

  • @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Sarat Roy.1935 said:
    the bar for raids is EXTREMELY low as it is

    The bar for raids in WoW or FFXIV is this:
    DO a few quests (or just buy em), gear out the character, click button, open interface, click other button. That's it.

    The bar for raids in GW2 is this:
    Level crafting to maximum, farm specific gear by doing specific meta events over and over, don't be deaf (to use discord/teamspeak), be the right class, have work at the right time to be online when training runs are around, and then finally manage to get a spot.

    The bar is not "extremely low", it's probably the highest bar in any current MMO.
    Seriously:The bar to raiding in GW2 is probably a bit higher as it was in classic WoW and about the same as it was in the Burning Crusade, attunements and heroics included.

    That's not inherently bad or anything, it's just how it is.

    (And yes, I can compare. I've played both FFXIV and WoW quite a bit, one for my job, the other with some friends. In their current forms, both have a much lower barrier of entry for raids. In FFXIV, for example, I could come on at any time, hit the duty finder for a tougher raid, and get into a run quickly, no need for vent, no need to worry about my class, it just worked. This also led to the average player being better at the game, as a side effect)

    Wow had a lower bar for raids than gw2?? I mean no, it didn't. I don't know about FFXIV but I do know that getting ascended gear in gw2 is not a big grind compared to getting the best stat gear in other MMOs. On top of that, anet have said ascended gear will ALWAYS BE the highest stat gear in the game (i.e after you get one set for one armour type you dont even need to get another set.. even if you chose to take a 5 years break from the game), AND swapping the stats only requires a small fee. I got my alt account its first full clear with sub 100 hours of gameplay (That includes grinding mastery upto leyline, and autoloot in regular tyria). I have screenshots if you want to DM me and I can show you. Right now its 135 hours of play with about 80Li.

    By setting the bars low in raids I should elaborate. When bosses have half their enrage timer left, that means you can do HALF AS MUCH DAMAGE AND STILL SUCCEED IN THE RAID. If that doesn't say something about the "meta" that all the casuals cry about then I don't know what does. If all the Necro mains want to play necro and clear, go ahead, it would actually work. In reality they wont because they are bad. If you cant put 100 hours in to clearing end game content, stop feeling entitled to content that is labelled end game content.

  • @Crevox.5806 said:

    I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids.

    I agree with you that this is (at least partially) where it stems from. A lot of the content in this game is very easy and people have no benchmark for themselves or others to determine how good they are. I've seen it myself in the hundreds of fractals I've run: player quality is ALL OVER the place. Not only is there no way for any individual to determine ahead of time if you know what you're doing, but a lot of players themselves don't even know if they're performing well, because the game gives so little feedback on that fact for you to form an understanding. Refining my gameplay and build/etc has gotten much easier thanks to having a DPS meter, but due to the nature of this game, I highly doubt the majority of players take that effort. I just started doing T4 fractals last night and the player quality so far has not improved from doing T1-T3 pugs; the bosses just take longer. I would say 99% of the players I've partied with would not be ready for a raid just by looking at their DPS, let alone their ability to handle their mechanics. That's totally fine, raids aren't for everyone and not everyone has to perform at that level, but when these players want to actually do raids, they hold back the groups because they aren't prepared (and I'm not saying that is their fault either).

    And look, I don't mean to sound egotistical; I just know where I stand, and took the effort to figure that out as well. There are players like me out there that want to get into raids and are confident in doing so. However, there is no avenue for us to take to get going. Everyone says to just do the "training runs"; which, like you said, is basically an audition. And yeah, sure, maybe that's the way to go, but that's currently 1000 players trying to fit through a door with 3 people leading them through it, PER BOSS. It's a long line of waiting and most people probably aren't ready for it. I've seen the discords come back and say the training groups failed the VG runs, and while I've never done VG (so this may be presumptuous), I find it difficult to believe that he did not die. Even if I finally get into the mythical unicorn "VG training run", what's next? Another 1000 hours of searching for the next boss "training run?" And so on? I just came back to the game, I haven't done any of the bosses, and sure seems like there's quite a few.

    So yeah, while I understand the community's concern, this still leads to a situation where you have these fancy tight knit groups doing all the fun and difficult content, and anyone else is struggling to get into this fancy "elite" groups to do the content, while they sometimes decide to take a couple players to "train" them. I am looking for a better way to get going and hoping ArenaNet does something to facilitate this.

    This is actually an interesting post. A lot of good guilds (mine included) will trial you regardless of Li if you can hit 85%+ of qTs class benchmark on the golem with realistic buffs and have a basic understanding of raid mechanics (which you can learn from guides/videos/even bad practice runs). The 3 guild leaders frequently host LFGs looking for suitable players, but most players that want to raid simply want to get carried, do not look at guides, do not learn their best skill rotations, and just feel entitled to get carried. Some people literally get offended when I ask them to read a boss guide. The casual communities views in the amount of efforts they need to put into raids are disgusting. They simply want carried. If they put the effort in, they would find a guild, which is exactly what I did when starting raiding.

    So to answer your question, to get into a 'elite' group, you actually need to BE ELITE. And you get that way by practising as I mentioned above, and being very good at your class. Li means nothing if you have the ability to read/learn your rotation. The problem is people feel entitled to maximum reward with no work required.

  • @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Sarat Roy.1935 said:
    the bar for raids is EXTREMELY low as it is

    The bar for raids in WoW or FFXIV is this:
    DO a few quests (or just buy em), gear out the character, click button, open interface, click other button. That's it.

    The bar for raids in GW2 is this:
    Level crafting to maximum, farm specific gear by doing specific meta events over and over, don't be deaf (to use discord/teamspeak), be the right class, have work at the right time to be online when training runs are around, and then finally manage to get a spot.

    The bar is not "extremely low", it's probably the highest bar in any current MMO.
    Seriously:The bar to raiding in GW2 is probably a bit higher as it was in classic WoW and about the same as it was in the Burning Crusade, attunements and heroics included.

    That's not inherently bad or anything, it's just how it is.

    (And yes, I can compare. I've played both FFXIV and WoW quite a bit, one for my job, the other with some friends. In their current forms, both have a much lower barrier of entry for raids. In FFXIV, for example, I could come on at any time, hit the duty finder for a tougher raid, and get into a run quickly, no need for vent, no need to worry about my class, it just worked. This also led to the average player being better at the game, as a side effect)

    How can you say that the bar for raiding is high when you can very comfortably raid with gear worth 100g bought on the trading post, which is less than 10€ of gems converted to gold. You MUST be a troll or incredibly misinformed. Do you realize by how many minutes AN AVERAGE PUG GROUP beats the enrage timer with not even meta builds and most of the time cheap or no food and utility ??? The absolute only character you have to do some kind of grind for that you can't buy your way through with 10 bucks is chrono because of runes of leadership and even for that we have alternatives. Reading this nonsense... just ouch.

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