Raid difficulty and challenge motes - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid difficulty and challenge motes

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  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    You are trying to put the cart before the horse, and the simple fact you are here trying to tell me how simple the fight is, rather than going out there and doing that is what i mean. I am not the one you need to be proving yourself to, the raid groups are. But you don't want to do that. Which is why you are here instead of raiding.

    Can't find a group. I'm staring at LFG all day, there are no training groups. The training discords have hundreds of people with very few actually leading the runs. I don't even care if I have to do a "training run" which is some weird rite of passage this community has created (and NO OTHER MMORPG DOES), but that opportunity is still extremely difficult to come by.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Crevox.5806 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    As a returning player from before Heart of Thorns, I just want an easier time getting into raids. The raids have been out for so long now that everyone expects you have experience running them many times. I know for a fact I have the skill and build to do it, but finding a group is extremely difficult. It's not even a matter of their difficulty, I just literally cannot get 9 other people together to even attempt them.

    I'd like to challenge that hard content you've created, but I'm not being given the opportunity to do so.

    Many people run weekly raid trainings. There is a discord server dedicated to it. I myself run trainings often =) we are out there you just have to look!!

    I joined a couple of these "training" discords. There were literally hundreds of people trying to fit in runs and the people running the Discords couldn't get everyone sorted out, let alone get everyone into an actual group.

    I also don't really need "training." I may have never done the raids before, but I am a skilled player and veteran raider in other MMOs. Looking up videos of how the fights are done explain it to me perfectly fine; the mechanics are simple. I completely understand Vale Guardian and his mechanics, I just need a group so I can go in there and kill him. I'm currently doing T4 fractals without issue and top meters every time, using consumables, using the right equipment, but I literally can't get into raid groups because I don't have "experience." Training groups wouldn't help me here, especially if the player quality is going to be the same as the fractal pug groups I'm running with.

    This mindset of "I'm better then learning" or" I shouldn't have to" is what keeps people from getting into raiding.
    You do have to. I had to. Everyone who has killed a raid had to. You need the motivation to learn.

    I did learn. Stacking in green circles and dodging blue aoes that occur infrequently is not difficult, nor are the rest of the mechanics of the fight. I know most of this game is casual and easy, but concepts and mechanics like this are not difficult to me. Throw me into a run to give it a try and I'll execute it without issue. I don't even care if I have to do a training run, but like I said, there are hundreds of people trying to get into "training runs" and very few people actually putting them together.

    You have my account name. I'm doing VG tomorrow.add me and come prove yourself

    Edit to say training run

  • First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.
    Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

    How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

    Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

  • @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    Big fan of your work.

    Would you care to comment on repeatable rewards for challenge motes?

    I know that it was said in the past they are intended to be a side challenge and that it was not desirable to split the community based on them. I was wondering if that has changed given some of the communities opinions?

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.
    Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

    How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

    Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

    There is definitely still a point in discussing it.

    It was good of Crystal to come in and clarify their current direction, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of differing opinions on this topic - nor does it change the fact that many, myself included, feel a change is needed.

    As to the argument that they wont continue if they find it doesn't work - just because there are people doing the content (I raid every week, for example), doesn't mean those people wouldn't prefer this kind of change. And, while the raid subforum is going to naturally skew to one side based on who actually comes here in the first place, it is still the best place to have this conversation.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    ....This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

    I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids. Other games have at least a gear score, so you at least know that that person was invested enough to gear up (I would assume, I didn't play those games). This game, you can have random people showing up in whatever they happen to have (ex - wearing soldiers stats while trying to fill a dps role, or wearing rare/exotics of differing stats). The only way groups have of determining someone's willingness to invest, is in the number of LI that others have accrued (or any other arbitrary means, like the AP requirements in prev dungeon running days). Whether right or wrong, it is the method that the community adopted, to at least filter out those that were not invested.

    Something to consider about training runs, they can end up being like auditions. The reason for this is because a lot of the experienced community gives back by helping to run these. You do a training run, even if it gets nowhere, you can still get noticed and invited to a guild. I understand if you don't want to do them, I refused to do them myself, but it took me a much longer time to get into raiding, than it had to.

  • DoM.8396DoM.8396 Member ✭✭

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    ... Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really...

    I think this issue is more important than new content, after the next raid release. I know many people who rarely experience raids because they have tried in the past but had one too many bad experiences due to over achieving leaders and haven't tried again since.

    I get tons of emails on qtfy's website from players that want to be accepted more into raids and don't know what their doing wrong and just want help figuring out why they aren't wanted. It's crushing to these players who get kicked out of raids for doing 5-15% less damage than the other DPS players in the raid; even with a boss kill.

    A proper LFG system to pair players together that resembles other popular MMO LFG systems would do wonders for the more "casual" community that are looking to raid and understand how to play their profession. It will also allow raiders to quickly get paired up and get their kills without needing to be apart of a static raid group that follows a raiding schedule. You already have ways to "measure" player experience in raids and you can put those to use when pairing people together if that is a design choice ArenaNet would want to take.

    This has been something I personally look forward to in future QoL changes along with build templates and I hope it goes into development sooner than later =)

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.
    Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

    How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

    Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

    There is definitely still a point in discussing it.

    It was good of Crystal to come in and clarify their current direction, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of differing opinions on this topic - nor does it change the fact that many, myself included, feel a change is needed.

    As to the argument that they wont continue if they find it doesn't work - just because there are people doing the content (I raid every week, for example), doesn't mean those people wouldn't prefer this kind of change. And, while the raid subforum is going to naturally skew to one side based on who actually comes here in the first place, it is still the best place to have this conversation.

    Have you ever tried raiding?

  • I almost spat my drink out reading OPs post. T1/T2 fractals?? The day that raids come anywhere near that level is the day raids will die/the community will just quit. Raids have been the only thing keeping me interested in the game, especially the CMs when W4 came out. If the bar for raids is dropped to casual level i'll be saying goodbye too. Sure the high level fractals are fun, but for me that's not enough instanced content.

    Many raid bosses are already easily clear-able by pug groups, I formed squads for every CM with 9 pugs and killed every W4 boss apart from Samrog without raiding with my guild. In my opinion, with how easy it is to get ascended gear (too many methods to list to be honest) the bar for raids is EXTREMELY low as it is, with good groups consistently killing the boss in half the enrage timer.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.
    Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

    How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

    Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

    There is definitely still a point in discussing it.

    It was good of Crystal to come in and clarify their current direction, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of differing opinions on this topic - nor does it change the fact that many, myself included, feel a change is needed.

    As to the argument that they wont continue if they find it doesn't work - just because there are people doing the content (I raid every week, for example), doesn't mean those people wouldn't prefer this kind of change. And, while the raid subforum is going to naturally skew to one side based on who actually comes here in the first place, it is still the best place to have this conversation.

    Have you ever tried raiding?

    I answer your question in the first sentence of the third paragraph of the post you just quoted.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate

    Then what is that rate? She never said, just that they'd like to get them out as fast as possible, which I'm guessing would still be the case if they had challenge motes. I presume it was also the case when they added challenge motes to the fourth raid. This goal will not change no matter what they choose to do. Their goal for rate of release is unclear as it was two months between one and two, five between two and three and seven between three and four. Either way we have no idea how long the challenge motes added to the design time, and it seems it's something they are happy putting time into, even if it adds to the schedule.

    At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

    Of course I'm a bit bitter. I've been playing and experiencing the lore in this series since 2007 and have not been able to see (in character) the culmination of some stories I'd like to. I do not have to "accept" anything, if by that you mean "shut up and stop voicing a contrary opinion". Minds don't change through inaction.

    I did not mean it as "shut up and stop voicing a contrary opinion". I mean it quite literally about the being bitter part. Being bitter is not good for you. By all means, if you wish to go on and continue being bitter, be bitter.

    It's not about minds changing, it's about minds accepting that they are not going to get the change that they want and learning to accept that or move on. That part usually happens around the time someone gets tired of being bitter about something in a video game, and different for every person.

  • Crevox.5806Crevox.5806 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids.

    I agree with you that this is (at least partially) where it stems from. A lot of the content in this game is very easy and people have no benchmark for themselves or others to determine how good they are. I've seen it myself in the hundreds of fractals I've run: player quality is ALL OVER the place. Not only is there no way for any individual to determine ahead of time if you know what you're doing, but a lot of players themselves don't even know if they're performing well, because the game gives so little feedback on that fact for you to form an understanding. Refining my gameplay and build/etc has gotten much easier thanks to having a DPS meter, but due to the nature of this game, I highly doubt the majority of players take that effort. I just started doing T4 fractals last night and the player quality so far has not improved from doing T1-T3 pugs; the bosses just take longer. I would say 99% of the players I've partied with would not be ready for a raid just by looking at their DPS, let alone their ability to handle their mechanics. That's totally fine, raids aren't for everyone and not everyone has to perform at that level, but when these players want to actually do raids, they hold back the groups because they aren't prepared (and I'm not saying that is their fault either).

    And look, I don't mean to sound egotistical; I just know where I stand, and took the effort to figure that out as well. There are players like me out there that want to get into raids and are confident in doing so. However, there is no avenue for us to take to get going. Everyone says to just do the "training runs"; which, like you said, is basically an audition. And yeah, sure, maybe that's the way to go, but that's currently 1000 players trying to fit through a door with 3 people leading them through it, PER BOSS. It's a long line of waiting and most people probably aren't ready for it. I've seen the discords come back and say the training groups failed the VG runs, and while I've never done VG (so this may be presumptuous), I find it difficult to believe that he did not die. Even if I finally get into the mythical unicorn "VG training run", what's next? Another 1000 hours of searching for the next boss "training run?" And so on? I just came back to the game, I haven't done any of the bosses, and sure seems like there's quite a few.

    So yeah, while I understand the community's concern, this still leads to a situation where you have these fancy tight knit groups doing all the fun and difficult content, and anyone else is struggling to get into this fancy "elite" groups to do the content, while they sometimes decide to take a couple players to "train" them. I am looking for a better way to get going and hoping ArenaNet does something to facilitate this.

  • meeflak.9714meeflak.9714 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    First, we got one more confirmation on the subject of difficulty so at this point it's pointless discussing it now.
    Second, the story of the Raid is already set (probably) so there is no way they will change the story of the Raid at this point.

    How it will fare and how will the game as a whole do in Path of Fire? We don't know but I'm positive if the Raids prove to be hurting the game due to their accessibility, difficulty and story/lore, then we'll see changes. I don't think the developers will continue developing something that failed, just look at the abandonment of e-sports. It wasn't what they expected despite the massive promotion and they gave up on it, in that form, now they have new forms of competition in pvp.

    Judging by what was posted, the new Raid will be similar to Spirit Vale, which means at this point Raids are still a success in this form they are releasing.

    There is definitely still a point in discussing it.

    It was good of Crystal to come in and clarify their current direction, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of differing opinions on this topic - nor does it change the fact that many, myself included, feel a change is needed.

    As to the argument that they wont continue if they find it doesn't work - just because there are people doing the content (I raid every week, for example), doesn't mean those people wouldn't prefer this kind of change. And, while the raid subforum is going to naturally skew to one side based on who actually comes here in the first place, it is still the best place to have this conversation.

    Have you ever tried raiding?

    I answer your question in the first sentence of the third paragraph of the post you just quoted.

    So you know that raids are accessible to anyone who wants to put in the effort?

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Crevox.5806 said:

    I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids.

    I agree with you that this is (at least partially) where it stems from. A lot of the content in this game is very easy and people have no benchmark for themselves or others to determine how good they are. I've seen it myself in the hundreds of fractals I've run: player quality is ALL OVER the place. Not only is there no way for any individual to determine ahead of time if you know what you're doing, but a lot of players themselves don't even know if they're performing well, because the game gives so little feedback on that fact for you to form an understanding. Refining my gameplay and build/etc has gotten much easier thanks to having a DPS meter, but due to the nature of this game, I highly doubt the majority of players take that effort. I just started doing T4 fractals last night and the player quality so far has not improved from doing T1-T3 pugs; the bosses just take longer. I would say 99% of the players I've partied with would not be ready for a raid just by looking at their DPS, let alone their ability to handle their mechanics. That's totally fine, raids aren't for everyone and not everyone has to perform at that level, but when these players want to actually do raids, they hold back the groups because they aren't prepared (and I'm not saying that is their fault either).

    And look, I don't mean to sound egotistical; I just know where I stand, and took the effort to figure that out as well. There are players like me out there that want to get into raids and are confident in doing so. However, there is no avenue for us to take to get going. Everyone says to just do the "training runs"; which, like you said, is basically an audition. And yeah, sure, maybe that's the way to go, but that's currently 1000 players trying to fit through a door with 3 people leading them through it, PER BOSS. It's a long line of waiting and most people probably aren't ready for it. I've seen the discords come back and say the training groups failed the VG runs, and while I've never done VG (so this may be presumptuous), I find it difficult to believe that he did not die. Even if I finally get into the mythical unicorn "VG training run", what's next? Another 1000 hours of searching for the next boss "training run?" And so on? I just came back to the game, I haven't done any of the bosses, and sure seems like there's quite a few.

    So yeah, while I understand the community's concern, this still leads to a situation where you have these fancy tight knit groups doing all the fun and difficult content, and anyone else is struggling to get into this fancy "elite" groups to do the content, while they sometimes decide to take a couple players to "train" them. I am looking for a better way to get going and hoping ArenaNet does something to facilitate this.

    As to finding training runs, the best times to look are usually on Friday and Saturday (at least for NA and would assume the same for EU). Monday and Tuesday night most people are just looking for their kills. Hopefully that timeframe will help you with finding LFG's. I also noticed someone else in this thread offered you a spot in a training run, try checking with them, and something might be able to work out. Something else to consider is that these were ultimately created with guilds and already organized groups doing this content, not pugs. So that is why there is little support for pug groups, and why they probably won't do more, besides the fact of it taking time away from producing the raids as Crystal mentioned earlier.

    I've been where you are, wanting to join in, but unable to. Just do what you can/have to, and then you'll get there.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    So you know that raids are accessible to anyone who wants to put in the effort?

    Just because I am able to pull together and lead a raid group every week doesn't mean I have to agree with the raiding model in the game.

    I lead a guild with more than 150 active members (more than 250 have logged on in the past two weeks). I raid with approximately 12 of those people for four hours spread across two nights each week.

    But I also know many more who would enjoy raids in a less intensive format. It isn't because they kitten at the game. It isn't because they are lazy. It is just that they enjoy the game in different ways - and, to be honest, I would enjoy playing that content in a less intensive format with them.

    And, the idea that those people - my friends that I enjoy playing with - will not enjoy aspects of the story because of what I believe to be faulty and restrictive design is, at the very minimum, depressing.

    Like most things, it isn't a black and white issue - and just because someone raids doesn't mean they agree with the model Anet uses.

  • Zlater.6789Zlater.6789 Member ✭✭

    I don't personally like OP's suggestion, if you want to experience it there is nothing stopping anyone from experiencing it except themselves as it is. I've heard a lot of debate over this but I started raiding in a difficult time a couple months after w4 was released, and now last I checked I have 210LI and can confidently play almost any role in any encounter, except handkiting. And I certainly didn't sneak or lie my way into raids, even with my 300+ ping.

    Honestly if you are struggling in w4 then you are struggling because of something else. Cairn is easily carryable with a good dps or 2 and MO isn't even a fight. There is no reason you can't meet Samarog except that you are lacking something as a person. Get motivated and go do it.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    For me the sweetspot is in how the Tier 4 of the new fractals with a challenge mode are done

    The normal mode is not easy, if you want it easier you go T1, T2 or T3. But the less forgiving mechanics are toned down slightly. And then there's the challenge mote that goes way beyond that, and has daily repeatable bonus rewards, and has no room for forgiveness.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    I think this is a mistake, and a big one for that matter.

    There's multiple types of players, and you can't satisfy all of them with a single mode. I know plenty people who want raids to be harder, and plenty who want them to be easier. Fractals of the Mists handled these kind of different players really well, by adding multiple difficulty levels. That's the right way to go.

    Raids need difficulty modes.

    • Easy: For learning purposes. Rewards are irrelevant, they can be removed for all that matters. New players should be able to clear raids with this mode somewhat easily, and learn the basic mechanics before getting to normal mode. Enrage timers and insta-kill mechanics would be disabled.
    • Normal: The current difficulty, plus some of the challenge motes (which should have been part of the encounters anyway).
    • Hard: A nightmare where only the best of the best can progress, the true hardcore content of the game. Something you need 10 top players to beat, and if 1 dies, you're really screwed.

    Without difficulty modes, there is always going to be someone unhappy with raids. It's no secret things like escort and trio are there for new players, and that's definitely not the way to handle them. Veteran raiders don't want filler like that, they want real bosses with real difficulty. Hardcore raiders need something more, too. 4-man raid bosses is a disgrace for what is supposed to be the hardest content of the game.

    If you want raids to be popular, and thus worth the development effort, you need more players. You can get them by annoying veteran raiders with kitten events, or you can give us difficulty modes where everyone stays in their lane, and everyone enjoys raids on their own way. You can either go full hardcore, and alienate new players, or you can try to integrate easy encounters for the new players, and alienate hardcores.

    Every single MMO out there has difficulty modes for raids, and it works. I want harder raids, because the current difficulty mode bores me, and I want easier raids, so I can get guildmates to try them and learn them at their own pace. Everyone wins.

    Raids in this game aren't designed to make everyone happy, nor should they be. They are designed purely for the challenge. Will there be people that it is too much of a challenge for? Yes, they know that. Will there be people that find the challenge too easy? Yes, they know that too. However, raids are not the main selling point of this game. They are exactly what Anet said that they would be, Challenging Group Content. Within the context of the rest of the game, they are exactly that.

    The other games that you are mentioning that have multiple levels of difficulty for raids, have that because the story usually guides players to the raid, and is integral to the story. The raids in this game are purely there for a niche role, challenging group content. Not, Variable Challenging Group content.

    And finally, Raids are very popular, within their niche. When you have a niche product, and it's a success, you stick with it, you don't change it (moreso, when it's a niche product within a larger product, like raids are in GW2). Yes, they could change it, and do more with it, but they have a different vision for raids and the game overall, which is raids remaining as niche content, while the open world is the main content (content that they make for everyone).

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭
    edited September 12

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    The cost effective argument is kinda negated by the introduction of challenge motes into raids. This is especially true when Crystal makes the statement "The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty." If that is the case, tune the regular version for a larger audience and just make the CMs repeatable and call it a day. If they are happy with the difficulty of the CM on what they agree is one of the easiest fights, that seems like it addresses the issue nicely.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    The cost effective argument is kinda negated by the introduction of challenge motes into raids. This is especially true when Crystal makes the statement "The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty." If that is the case, tune the regular version for a larger audience and just make the CMs repeatable and call it a day. If they are happy with the difficulty of the CM on what they agree is one of the easiest fights, that seems like it addresses the issue nicely.

    I took Crystal's statement to mean that they felt that the normal MO fight should have been CM level or just below, while the CM could have been more difficult.

    And it is a cost effective argument. There are only so many resources for raids (read: a small team or two). Had the CM's not been done, more polish could have been put on the singular difficulty levels, for a better overall feel, and it could have possibly been released much sooner than the 9 months it took. When you only have so many resources, there is only so much that you can do with the time that you have. If it isn't enough, you either allow for more time or hire more resources for it, neither of which appear to interest Anet in doing. And I can understand that, they are by and large, a huge success, within their demographic.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    I think this is a mistake, and a big one for that matter.

    There's multiple types of players, and you can't satisfy all of them with a single mode. I know plenty people who want raids to be harder, and plenty who want them to be easier. Fractals of the Mists handled these kind of different players really well, by adding multiple difficulty levels. That's the right way to go.

    Raids need difficulty modes.

    • Easy: For learning purposes. Rewards are irrelevant, they can be removed for all that matters. New players should be able to clear raids with this mode somewhat easily, and learn the basic mechanics before getting to normal mode. Enrage timers and insta-kill mechanics would be disabled.
    • Normal: The current difficulty, plus some of the challenge motes (which should have been part of the encounters anyway).
    • Hard: A nightmare where only the best of the best can progress, the true hardcore content of the game. Something you need 10 top players to beat, and if 1 dies, you're really screwed.

    Without difficulty modes, there is always going to be someone unhappy with raids. It's no secret things like escort and trio are there for new players, and that's definitely not the way to handle them. Veteran raiders don't want filler like that, they want real bosses with real difficulty. Hardcore raiders need something more, too. 4-man raid bosses is a disgrace for what is supposed to be the hardest content of the game.

    If you want raids to be popular, and thus worth the development effort, you need more players. You can get them by annoying veteran raiders with kitten events, or you can give us difficulty modes where everyone stays in their lane, and everyone enjoys raids on their own way. You can either go full hardcore, and alienate new players, or you can try to integrate easy encounters for the new players, and alienate hardcores.

    Every single MMO out there has difficulty modes for raids, and it works. I want harder raids, because the current difficulty mode bores me, and I want easier raids, so I can get guildmates to try them and learn them at their own pace. Everyone wins.

    Raids in this game aren't designed to make everyone happy, nor should they be. They are designed purely for the challenge. Will there be people that it is too much of a challenge for? Yes, they know that. Will there be people that find the challenge too easy? Yes, they know that too. However, raids are not the main selling point of this game. They are exactly what Anet said that they would be, Challenging Group Content. Within the context of the rest of the game, they are exactly that.

    The other games that you are mentioning that have multiple levels of difficulty for raids, have that because the story usually guides players to the raid, and is integral to the story. The raids in this game are purely there for a niche role, challenging group content. Not, Variable Challenging Group content.

    And finally, Raids are very popular, within their niche. When you have a niche product, and it's a success, you stick with it, you don't change it (moreso, when it's a niche product within a larger product, like raids are in GW2). Yes, they could change it, and do more with it, but they have a different vision for raids and the game overall, which is raids remaining as niche content, while the open world is the main content (content that they make for everyone).

    So, I guess you love trio and escort, then? Because that's what we'll be getting again and again instead of good bosses, because so many of you are so pointlessly against difficulty modes.

    If you think raids will remain exclusive for good players, you couldn't be more wrong. Raids, as any content, need a healthy population to be supported. They won't be wasting resources on endgame content only a few experience, when they could just make more open world casual content, and get more players, and thus more money. They will stop making raids if there's not enough people playing them.

    Difficulty modes are the only way to make sure raids stay hard. Without them, you'll keep getting easy mode bosses shoehorned in with every raid, with their good mechanics removed and put into challenge motes. They already confirmed the next raid will have two bosses and one event. That's one less boss because you don't want raids to cater to everyone on their own way.

    Without difficulty modes, we'll never get a really hard boss that can't be facerolled by hardcores. Let that sink in.

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