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Endurance Regen foods should be reworked


Riba.3271

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Endurance regen foods go against game balance because it is not flat stats like damage reduction (10% damage reduction is effectively 11.11% armor increase) and other typical foods, rather it provides your class extra evade frames.

Mirages, daredevils, warriors etc are not balanced around having 40% extra endurance regen.

Staff daredevils, Mirages, Might makes right warriors are abusing it. It also makes holosmith heat management easier because most run the trait where you lose heat per dodge.

My suggested solution: Make it give 7 second of vigor on heal skill (every 20 seconds) instead of 40% endurance regen so it still stands out from the existing foods but isn't overly powerful and can't be stacked with vigor.

EDIT: These are mostly considered roaming specs so this balance change should be mostly made for sake of small-scale WvW.

EDIT 2: Discuss if the food is much stronger than other foods. I know that energy sigil is strong already and have accepted it. The sigil has nothing to do with this food being 2x stronger than other foods. We all know that food matters when roaming so try to not undervalue that. You can make another thread regarding energy sigils if you want to.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:I'd say it balances out nicely with 5 man groups being able to maintain 10+ boons with permanent uptime.

You want to nerf endurance? The boon is the problem, not the food.

This nerf is for sake of roaming mostly though. Mirages, staff daredevils, might makes right warriors, tools holosmiths are mostly considered roaming specs.

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@Solori.6025 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:My suggestion is to disable all foods. Less variables for ANET's 'balance' team to worry about in the long run.

D:

Been saying this for years. I don't understand the need for food in a competitive environment.

Exactly. It's highly ironic that people complain about balance but then want more stuff for ANET to balance...

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@Threather.9354 said:My suggested solution: Make it give 7 second of vigor on heal skill (every 20 seconds) instead of 40% endurance regen so it still stands out from the existing foods but isn't overly powerful and can't be stacked with vigor.

most builds with a ton of endurance regen will not just have that food but vigor aswell. so making the food grant vigor instead of flat endurance increase will be for some builds like the food simply does nothing. those are usually the builds on wich it currently is an issue. yet ontop you want to nerf the effect by at least 50% as the effect does 40% , your change would be 20% base (builds with boonduration ususally also got vigor enough to make such a food obsolte to begin with). not sure that would be worth using that much anymore then. because thats 1 more dodge every 50 seconds = 1,5% damage reduction against constant damage, more against bursts but that would require you to make efficient use of it. and that is assuming you have a heal skill with 20s cooldown that you use on cd.so with more uptime on vigor and a better trigger like on evade, why not.. else flat damage reduction food will be better and that is what pretty much every half decent roamer runs who is not running endurance food atm. so viable foods choice from 2 to 1. sure those -10% foods got different secondary stats but we all know they are just that secondary.

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@"Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365" said:Not only do I like the food and dont find it broken, I also would like to see (to go off topic abit) a food that gives 25% move speed for the classes that dont have alot of swiftness or movement abilities, which also wouldnt force people into certain traits all the timeThis is a utility item, not food but https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Masterful_Speed

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@cgMatt.5162 said:

@"Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365" said:Not only do I like the food and dont find it broken, I also would like to see (to go off topic abit) a food that gives 25% move speed for the classes that dont have alot of swiftness or movement abilities, which also wouldnt force people into certain traits all the timeThis is a utility item, not food but

the cost is not viable tho..

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@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:Not only do I like the food and dont find it broken, I also would like to see (to go off topic abit) a food that gives 25% move speed for the classes that dont have alot of swiftness or movement abilities, which also wouldnt force people into certain traits all the time

It's not broken per se (debatable with damage reductions and +40% regen being popular). It's all mostly boring passive stuff. Even still I would never recommend giving more passive speed that will be easily acquired (and subsequently a boring addition in a meta). I'd rather they remove the traited passive speed so swiftness becomes far more valuable...but hey! How dare I suggest there be balance in building for movement! We should just give a few classes some stealth, some mobility, and maybe range damage as well? That'll go over well for the masses.

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@Solori.6025 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:My suggestion is to disable all foods. Less variables for ANET's 'balance' team to worry about in the long run.

D:

Been saying this for years. I don't understand the need for food in a competitive environment.

What's the difference between adjusting stats with gear versus with food? Isn't it just another variable? If we cut out food, why not make all gear have the same stats? Make builds just about skills & traits.

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Meh. I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but it does get a little ridiculous on Mirage. 40% regen + vigor + sigil of energy + base endurance = a lot of dodges. Then factor in Elusive Mind and it basically means I need to land 10 CCs on the Mirage before they don't have a dodge-stunbreak-condiclear up. That's just never going to happen. I've got 1-2 cc's. Maybe up to 4 if I'm playing Holo. There's no point in even engaging.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:My suggestion is to disable all foods. Less variables for ANET's 'balance' team to worry about in the long run.

D:

Been saying this for years. I don't understand the need for food in a competitive environment.

What's the difference between adjusting stats with gear versus with food? Isn't it just another variable? If we cut out food, why not make all gear have the same stats? Make builds just about skills & traits.

Food uses the normal stats and non-comparable stats (percent damage increases, energy regen as noted above, single condi duration, on dodge, on heal, etc. ). That's assuming you were trying to make a 1:1 comparison of food versus armor as a basis to remove gear as well. Which it isn't a 1:1 comparison, but it is less variables for ANET to balance. Or you could normalize food so it follows a consistent pattern of either only normal stats or only non-comparable stats. This could also lessen the amount of useless food, and of course is all operating under the assumption that more manageable 'balance' is the desire.

(P.S. I did like GW1 for being about Skills over the gear stats).

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@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:My suggestion is to disable all foods. Less variables for ANET's 'balance' team to worry about in the long run.

D:

Been saying this for years. I don't understand the need for food in a competitive environment.

What's the difference between adjusting stats with gear versus with food? Isn't it just another variable? If we cut out food, why not make all gear have the same stats? Make builds just about skills & traits.

Food uses the
normal stats
and
non-comparable stats
(percent damage increases, energy regen as noted above, single condi duration, on dodge, on heal, etc. ). That's assuming you were trying to make a 1:1 comparison of food versus armor as a basis to remove gear as well. Which it isn't a 1:1 comparison, but it is less variables for ANET to balance. Or you could normalize food so it follows a consistent pattern of either
only normal stats
or only
non-comparable stats
. This could also lessen the amount of useless food, and of course is all operating under the assumption that more manageable 'balance' is the desire.

(P.S. I did like GW1 for being about Skills over the gear stats).

I'm not making a 1:1 comparison. I'm pointing out that foods, all foods, boost stats.

Some history: It's only post-launch that ANet invented new stats for what used to be primary stats that were directly affected by food (or traits). For example, ferocity supplanted crit chance (as primary) in 2014. And it wasn't until last year that ANet adjusted related foods. Concentration became the primary for boon duration in 2015, but the foods weren't updated until 2017.

But that still ignores my point: if food is a problem, why isn't gear also a problem? If the issue is only that there are still some food bonuses that are too high, what's wrong with adjust just those (or inventing new primary stats to better manage)?

Disabling all food also disables food that just adjust primary stats. If those aren't the problem, why take the extreme approach? And if they are the problem, then why isn't gear equally an issue for WvW?

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

I'm not making a 1:1 comparison.

Good.

Some history: It's only post-launch that ANet invented new stats for what used to be primary stats that were directly affected by food (or traits). For example, ferocity supplanted crit chance (as primary) in 2014. And it wasn't until last year that ANet adjusted related foods. Concentration became the primary for boon duration in 2015, but the foods weren't updated until 2017.

Yes. ANET cracked down on Giver's percentage boosts for more consistency when it came to stats on armor/weapons (including platinum doubloons as well for their boon duration).

But that still ignores my point: if food is a problem, why isn't gear also a problem? If the issue is only that there are still some food bonuses that are too high, what's wrong with adjust just those (or inventing new primary stats to better manage)?

OP detected a food with non-comparable stats with regards to the current primary stats. He wished to adjust it in an effort to weaken its use in the small scene meta (although I've use the cheapo version on some zergie stuff for derping).

Disabling all food also disables food that just adjust primary stats. If those aren't the problem, why take the extreme approach? And if they are the problem, then why isn't gear equally an issue for WvW?

If we normalized all food into the primary stats as I hinted at above somewhere, then why keep them? Do they then really contribute to build diversity at that point? Theory-crafting is an activity people like about Guild Wars Franchise, I think this path would still fall under boring passives.

If we normalized all food into the obscure boosts that have unique flavor that then could be adjusted on an individual basis as OP pointed out in this case. However this would mean ANET could introduce active elements to the food more often like the 'on heal' as if to emulate eating, and gaining a benefit. I prefer the active mechanics over the passive mechanics. Alas that'd lead to the path of balance complaints more than likely.

The nuclear option being to disable them all in WvW. While you wouldn't get balance complaints specific to food, however you would get culture shock related ones. Since you're scraping away something the community was used to (even if it wasn't the most impressive in regards to game play). Even it meant technically slightly more manageable balance. That being said...WvW has had plenty of culture shocks related to additions. Would this be different? Speculative, but something to wonder.

Never once did I say gear wasn't an issue. Numbers wise however, it isn't an equal issue given armor/trinkets/weapons contributes to effectiveness more (despite the 'popular' foods). I am sure there plenty of threads still lingering about trailblazers/minstrels (which idc about personally). I even conceded I preferred GW1's approach so I am bias'd towards making items more consistent. To me it'd be less stuff to fiddle with so I can get to the tangible bit of the gameplay. You can say people do like the math of it while theory-crafting. Which reminds me! If we aren't making a 1:1 comparison of Food:Armor then the solutions to problems (if any) wouldn't be 1:1 either. Yes?

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The food provides 1 dodge every 25 seconds. A major sigil of energy is providing more dodges than the food. I don't disagree that the food is the best for any class that has mechanics tied to dodging but the classes themselves have been built around dodging and generally have lots of vigor or other endurance gains. You may as well start talking about nerfing sigil of energy, vigor boon duration, and various other traits that become far stronger with PvE itemization.

Changing the food to give vigor on heal with 20s cooldown won't change the roaming meta.

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I agree that this food should be reworked to give something like Vigor on dodge. Or make it so it does not stack with Vigor. The professions that abuse this food aren't skillfully dodging in reaction to any particular attack - which is what makes the dodging mechanic so unique and engaging.

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@Hackuuna.4085 said:The food provides 1 dodge every 25 seconds. A major sigil of energy is providing more dodges than the food. I don't disagree that the food is the best for any class that has mechanics tied to dodging but the classes themselves have been built around dodging and generally have lots of vigor or other endurance gains. You may as well start talking about nerfing sigil of energy, vigor boon duration, and various other traits that become far stronger with PvE itemization.

Changing the food to give vigor on heal with 20s cooldown won't change the roaming meta.

I do agree that Sigil of Energy is worth nerfing in WvW also as it is pretty much must in any WvW blob build that isn't staff ele but it would also hinder the weakest classes and people who haven't played in a while, not only dedicated roaming mirages, strength warrior, daredevil etc so it should maybe be left untouched.

I think endurance regen should be just nerfed or reworked because it hinders the overall class balancing that should transfer over from PvP to WvW roaming. Especially once you start creating elite specializations that are based on evading.

Dont forget that 1 dodge every 25 seconds is still 1 second of evadeframe every 25 seconds (can be compared to endure pain, elixir R, full counter, Signet of stamina signet of agility etc.) with extra mobility + trait synergy (especially mirage and daredevil).

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