It Feels bad when i can just ress rush Bosses.

(This is about lw since instanced pve content in the form or raids and fractals dont do this.)

It really feels shitty that you can basically go up to a god, a dragon, an undead lich, die a bunch of times and still complete the instance.

Dont get me wrong i got no issue woth someone dying alot at a fight, getting familiar with it, maybe changing his/her build to make the fight easier for him/her and then beating it.

Thats not what is happening tho. You dont have to go through all that, u can just respawn and continue auto attacking the boss, die, repeat. The boss doesnt reset, u dont fail the mission, its just a weird experience of you breaking all your armor while a boss with a never refilling healthbar stands there, w8ing for you to kill it.I dont think ppl that experience this like it particularly.

I dont think for what is worth that dying at this point should mean mission failed. Instances are weird and theres not always checkpoints and ppl would be mad. But i think that the fight should at least reset, with you startind again from outside the boss room with an anvil and the boss fully healed.

I think ppl would apreciate the fights more that way and i believe that such important lore moments deserve more than being res rushed.

Just my two cents on how anet has handle expansion and lw climactic fights.

Nothing is stopping yoy, personally, from leaving the story instance and restarting when you die.

@Oglaf.1074 said:Nothing is stopping yoy, personally, from leaving the story instance and restarting when you die.

Nothing stops you from watching a youtube playthrough of the fight either.

And theres stuff that do. Like, the weird checkpoints or lack thereof in alot of the fights.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:Nothing is stopping yoy, personally, from leaving the story instance and restarting when you die.

My point is that I don’t see the point of your complaint. It only affects you and you can artificially punish yourself if you feel like it. There’s no need to impose your will on other players.

I agree, but I also understand that maybe 60% of players wouldn't be able to clear the instances lmao

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:Nothing is stopping yoy, personally, from leaving the story instance and restarting when you die.

I dont look to make the fight harder in a way nor to make it in any way more punishing. I believe it would make for better boss fights and it would make the experience less annoying if the fights reset along with your gear and cds after a wipe.

@Blocki.4931 said:I agree, but I also understand that maybe 60% of players wouldn't be able to clear the instances lmao

Its not that diff if you think about it. In the existing system if you are bad and die multiple times your gear break and you get penalty iirc to your stats makimg the fight slower and you squishier.

I agree, but many of the boss fights, especially the non-stop, AOE carpet bombing ones, seem to be designed just around that.

Yeah I noticed this with a boss in LS4 where you are at this charr village. I died a number of times trying to figure out how the hell this fight worked and I just kept getting ressed. For me that was good because I hate the boss fights as they are. They are too long and therefore boring to me. It's generally a plethora of templates on the floor you have to dive out and do damage while moving around. And then there's a gimmick or two you have to do. Now the gimmicks can be fun or clever but that shed load of HP you still have to go through just puts me to sleep.

I appreciate that I can make it through while dying because I do not find this properly challenging but it's just an endurance fight against your own annoyance and boredom. I think I'd like the story bosses a lot better if they had only half the HP. Not because the fights are necessarily too hard, but just so long I start losing interest during the fight, because you're just going through the same motions over and over and over again.

I get that this game cannot do too much in the way of interesting mechanics because of the way the classes and combat are built in this game, but I never really understood why these bosses need so much HP. But as it stands the game needs to allow you to do this because more casual players would never make it through these bosses I'm sure. Oh, I'm just reminded of that fight with Scruffy 2.0 or whatever his name is. Talk about a tedious fight that lasts too long. And because it's so frigging long it's not the type of boss fight you wanna try a few times to get it right. If I had to try over with these bosses as they are now I wouldn't even try anymore. I don't know if you remember the phrase "and look, more lembas bread" from the Lord of the Rings movies, but that's kinda how I feel about combat in this game... "and look, more templates on the ground to dodge" or "and look, more mobs that aggroed me while I look on the map which way to go".

There are plenty of people here that will tell you they love the combat here, but I mostly wish there was less of it because it just always seems to be the same to me. And these bosses are the best example really. I mean clearly the second playthrough would go faster now I know what's coming, but I just can't be bothered because I know those lengthy slugfests are part of it. I've actually wanted to log out in the middle of a couple of boss fights because it was taking so long and was so repetitive but then I reminded myself I didn't want to come back there so I slugged through it. I dunno. It may feel bad that you get ressed all the time but it's a necessary evil considering how long and boring these fights are. When my mind starts wandering off in the middle of a boss fight, that's not a good sign to me. So I'm better of just letting myself die a few times and get it over with. A shame though because I actually do like the PoF story as such. LS4 so far isn't too bad either, though it's a bit iffy. I kinda want to get it finished but am also not looking forward to the next slugfest and I'm still in part 2 and then there's part 3 still to go...

Story instances aren't supposed to be hard.There are achievements which can be "permanently" (until you restart the instance) failed, though.

There are two extremes: make the fights challenging enough to interest those who like the challenge versus make the fights so easy that no one has to worry. In the middle, there are fights that can be cheezed by learning a trick (but are otherwise challenging), fights with few consequences for dying multiple times in a row, and so on.

Given the likelihood that ANet can only create one fight (not multiple versions) and given that they want the living world stories to appeal to everyone, what's the appropriate balance? As noted by the OP, fractals & raids (and even many dungeon fights) can't be won by death rushing, so the gud-at-games crowd theoretically has the "challenging" option already. On the other hand, I imagine there are still plenty of players who fall somewhere in between, who don't do fracts and would still like to overcome obstacles, rather than just bash against them.

Failing the instance is the most extreme challenge; being able to death rush is close to the other extreme.

However, there are a variety of in-between solutions:

• Include a "replay mote" near every major fight. That gives gud@games types the option to start from scratch, while allow those who don't care a chance to continue.
• Include these options at the start: (a) "cannot be defeated;" (b) "no downstate;" & © default. The first means you can always self-rez, no matter how tough the fight is; the middle option means zero health kills you instantly, forcing you to restart the fight.

Story instances are fine as they are, since their primary function is just to progress the story. In majority of cases even if the player dies, there are still party npcs fighting which just dont have the AI to rez you. AN has said before that story instances are gear in a way to be able to be completed by players of various skill levels and gear so the fight cannot be exceedingly difficult anyway. If you want content that punishes dying during the encounter there is a lot of other content for that.

The thing is, this is the story. They want everyone regardless of skill to get to enjoy the story. That’s why the bosses work that way. If you want to challenge yourself there is usually an achievement that you void by messing up, too.

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:I agree, but I also understand that maybe 60% of players wouldn't be able to clear the instances lmao

Point of information: damaged gear does not lose any of its defense or attribute bonuses. Broken gear does. However, gear does not break until all of one's armor and back piece are damaged. So, one loses stats only on the eighth and subsequent defeats.

Opinion: It seems more likely that people would fail to clear the story instance because of inability to whittle a boss down from full health no matter how many times they try than that they would eventually fail due to losing stats. How likely are people in today's gaming culture to not rage quit after seven defeats?

Opinion: While harder instanced content is not aimed at all players, story content is. Given the latter, importing instance "rules" meant for harder content risks alienating less skilled players while offering little benefit to players who like harder instanced content. After all, the mainstays of such content are: group composition; actual challenge; and repetitive play fueled by rewards.

@Oglaf.1074 said:The thing is, this is the story. They want everyone regardless of skill to get to enjoy the story. That’s why the bosses work that way. If you want to challenge yourself there is usually an achievement that you void by messing up, too.

This change would make encounters any less easy to beat than the existing system. By far if they even balanced fight around it too and gave them apropreate hp (which imo is fine considering ad players deal less dmg which makes the fights seem like they drag out)

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:There are two extremes: make the fights challenging enough to interest those who like the challenge versus make the fights so easy that no one has to worry. In the middle, there are fights that can be cheezed by learning a trick (but are otherwise challenging), fights with few consequences for dying multiple times in a row, and so on.

Given the likelihood that ANet can only create one fight (not multiple versions) and given that they want the living world stories to appeal to everyone, what's the appropriate balance? As noted by the OP, fractals & raids (and even many dungeon fights) can't be won by death rushing, so the gud-at-games crowd theoretically has the "challenging" option already. On the other hand, I imagine there are still plenty of players who fall somewhere in between, who don't do fracts and would still like to overcome obstacles, rather than just bash against them.

Failing the instance is the most extreme challenge; being able to death rush is close to the other extreme.

However, there are a variety of in-between solutions:

• Include a "replay mote" near every major fight. That gives gud@games types the option to start from scratch, while allow those who don't care a chance to continue.
• Include these options at the start: (a) "cannot be defeated;" (b) "no downstate;" & © default. The first means you can always self-rez, no matter how tough the fight is; the middle option means zero health kills you instantly, forcing you to restart the fight.

Im not sure what was bad with the gw1 format of hard and easy mode for story missions. its even used in gw2. U can slap any achievements you want to hard mode and bam.

I dunno, I don't think it's particuarly fair that bosses can tank cc (I don't like breakbars, or sometimes, the lack thereof), so sometimes res-rushing is the post practical way to beat a boss. Sure, it's immersion breaking, but so is dying and repeating 30 minutes of walking and talking so you can fight the boss again. Cough Gw1 Cough

It's all and well doing this for instanced content - which has an expected level of player skill and dps - eg t4 fractals, raids, but story isn't that.

If the fights hard reset a large portion of people would never complete them- be it because their builds don't allow them to (i found sooo many fights easier with full dps gear), they have low fps/high ping (can't react to something that kills you before it loads)....

Or don't understand mechanics (IMO - it's fine to research or ask party about mechanics for raids and some fractals. but for story, story should have instantly understandable mechanics with clear indicators for attacks and such. tbh, most story instances with "hard" fights aren't hard, so much as they fail miserably at showing people the mechanics of the fight. taimi's suit, balathazar, caudecus, eater of souls...all very easy fights, but they do little to nothing about showing off mechanics, and anyone new to those fights (especially if they have low fps or high ping) is gonna die A LOT before they realise the patterns.)

It's gonna seem like a punishment to those people...i'm okay with challenge (and yes, hard reset on health is challenge- miss a mechanic and die and the fight resets...), as long as it's not the only option. Buuuut..hey! We almost already have this for one instance, hearts and minds/migraine achievement. So...it's possible, if someone's willing to create the content for cm story instances.

oh yeah, i remember what i forgot to add to this. people already complain about hearts and minds for mordremoth's resetting health upon death, so...i don't think creating even more rage at that is what anet wants. : P if people want challenging PvE content, it already exists. But forcing challenge in story makes it impossible to do for a somewhat large sect of people, and story is intended to be as widely appealing as open world is- neither of which hold much challenge for a reason.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:I agree, but I also understand that maybe 60% of players wouldn't be able to clear the instances lmao

Alot of ppl already rq in the current fight and you can see it in forum threads. Theres the arguement about which would cause more rage but we having seen any proper story instanced be done with a checkpoint and an anvil to ix your gear.

Opinion: While harder instanced content is not aimed at all players, story content is. Given the latter, importing instance "rules" meant for harder content risks alienating less skilled players while offering little benefit to players who like harder instanced content. After all, the mainstays of such content are: group composition; actual challenge; and repetitive play fueled by rewards.

True. Its just my opinion that i believe this wouldnt increase the difficulty for the ppl that would already struggle in the existing format while also making the fight more well regarded due to no major cheese from death rushing.

Oh well.

You do realize that by doing this people will rage on reddit and force anet to nerf the fuck out of it.

@"Westenev.5289" said:I dunno, I don't think it's particuarly fair that bosses can tank cc (I don't like breakbars, or sometimes, the lack thereof), so sometimes res-rushing is the post practical way to beat a boss. Sure, it's immersion breaking, but so is dying and repeating 30 minutes of walking and talking so you can fight the boss again. Cough Gw1 Cough

Yeah but its not even "ressing withtin the context of gw2. There are npc which can ress you yes but my main problem is when u fully die aka someone fails to ress u from downed. U get a respawn button and its as if nothing happened.

Also yes i recognise todays playerbase wouldnt handle gw1's format so thats not what im asking.

I agree, i haven't been able to take Mordremoth, Balthazar, let even Joko, seriously, because no matter how evil they are, you can just endlessly engage them until you're in your underwear and slowly nibble away their lives.

I mean, compare that to GW1, you couldn't die, at least, not as a team. And sometimes you had objectives like "keep this person alive". In that case you can let your dedicee just die, clear a path, and revive them (endlessly) where necessary.

The game is holding you by the hand so strongly, it's the literal exact opposite of dark souls.Instead of great effort to win, it takes almost a very great effort to fulfil a losing/failing condition

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:I agree, i haven't been able to take Mordremoth, Balthazar, let even Joko, seriously, because no matter how evil they are, you can just endlessly engage them until you're in your underwear and slowly nibble away their lives.

I mean, compare that to GW1, you couldn't die, at least, not as a team. And sometimes you had objectives like "keep this person alive". In that case you can let your dedicee just die, clear a path, and revive them (endlessly) where necessary.

The game is holding you by the hand so strongly, it's the literal exact opposite of dark souls.Instead of great effort to win, it takes almost a very great effort to fulfil a losing/failing condition

wut? as far as I remember you could die infinite amount of times in GW1 and still not fail?

I do not mind a challenge, but I can also imagine when I would rage quit if I had to to the whole instance just before balthazar again just because you don't know one of the mechanics yet.

I'm with Zealex on this one. The current system seems coddling and cheapens the experience. I'd much prefer if the boss fights were like Dark Souls, where they reset upon failure but it is easy to get back to the boss. Now, in order to get that experience, I have to log out then log in then wait forever for the game to load, only to hope that I don't have to march through the entire instance all over again.

@"Lexi.1398" said:It's all and well doing this for instanced content - which has an expected level of player skill and dps - eg t4 fractals, raids, but story isn't that.

If the fights hard reset a large portion of people would never complete them- be it because their builds don't allow them to (i found sooo many fights easier with full dps gear), they have low fps/high ping (can't react to something that kills you before it loads)....

You are able to change your build outside of combat tho :/ Latency is an issue true but that would already spoil their experience.

Or don't understand mechanics (IMO - it's fine to research or ask party about mechanics for raids and some fractals. but for story, story should have instantly understandable mechanics with clear indicators for attacks and such. tbh, most story instances with "hard" fights aren't hard, so much as they fail miserably at showing people the mechanics of the fight. taimi's suit, balathazar, caudecus, eater of souls...all very easy fights, but they do little to nothing about showing off mechanics, and anyone new to those fights (especially if they have low fps or high ping) is gonna die A LOT before they realise the patterns.)

I disagree. Both se3 encounter woth balthazar and the expansion one had clesr mechanics and aoe. Taimi's suit encounter had voice acting to tell you what to do but i suppose map indicators would help alot too (but i think the game pings the portals at that fight). Caudecus u have a point the fight isnt good but the existing format doesnt make it any better.

It's gonna seem like a punishment to those people...i'm okay with challenge (and yes, hard reset on health is challenge- miss a mechanic and die and the fight resets...), as long as it's not the only option. Buuuut..hey! We almost already have this for one instance, hearts and minds/migraine achievement. So...it's possible, if someone's willing to create the content for cm story instances.

Theres not enough 1 shot mechanics in lw in se4 tbh having played through ep2 and 3 back to back the only mechanics which one shot u have breakbars or a good tell (like jokos deathwall for example).

Ideally they could do a hard mote which has a fight reset (and maybe something more) with the achievements tied to it and it would server the same purpose.

Hearts and minds is a good example idd but anet has got way better at makimg clear mechanics and they also seem to not do party sized endfights anymore.