Ritualist as a Class? Or Elite Spec? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Ritualist as a Class? Or Elite Spec?

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  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
    Ritualist falls closer to Revenant, and is thematically closer to Revenant based on ingame descriptions and certain mechanics portrayal of skills, I could see it being given as a ES but doubt it since it’s spiritual successor is already in game.

    At the person who keeps saying that Revenants aren’t close to Ritualists if you go to the links on Ritualist and Revenant respectively, the descriptions of their classes are very similar in where/how they get their powers, how they help focus their powers, and how they function, ie Channeling Spirits/Legends from the mists to supply their abilities, the blindfold is only aesthetic in game, while in the lore of both classes they share the same purpose to assist them in channeling their powers better, they have a similar class icon of an Eye, they are both support oriented and combat oriented.

    The revenant does not perform rituals in the way they are described in game. The revenant isn't a priest and no revenant has become a priest. They don't honor their ancestors. The revenant channels legends of the mists much like the dervish channels the power of the gods. Both revenant and necromancer does commune with the mists. But the you are limiting their scope a bit too much by comparing them.m to ritualist. The ritualist only communes with spirits of the underworld and realm of torment. Which the necromancer currently does. The necromancer does channel sprits. The revenant borrows knowledge from the legends they channel as well as magic. And lose that magic and seems to lose their unique knowledge when they release them. The revenant isn't limited to the dead. We have this suggested in the story but its possible they could channel living legends trapped in the mists or even legends of the future. The revenant also uses their own body as the medium. Something the ritualist does not do nor would they ever do it. The revenant also is a martial profession. And their identity is centered around using the legends to enhance their own performance. Like a dervish does with God magic. Ritualist and necromancer are both capable of this to a lesser extent but they don't maintain the identity of the spirits they absorb. The revenant has effectively perfected a single spell. They have very poor magic abilities aside from that one spell. Canonically the necromancer performs all the rights and rultiuals the ritualist would be doing.

    And to help further drive the point home. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/White_Mantle_Ritualist

    Sorry but the name of that NPC doesn’t drive home the point since it clearly states that the Npc can be one of 4 professions and the Necromancer is one of them and why it has Necromancer skills listed and not Ritualist skills and it even states that they aren’t the ritual profession from prophecies.

    And dervishes assume an avatar of a god not channel it, while Revenants channel spirits.

    For a profession that supposedly doesn't have anything in common with the necromancer they sure talk about death and harnessing the power of death a lot.... I'm reading some quotes from Ritualist NPCs from GW1.

    They channel spirits which are from the dead, so yeah they would talk about the dead, but they aren’t using death magic..... Necromancers don’t do that, they Reanimate corpses and exploit those while using Death Magic..

    The necromancer absolutely does channel spirits. This is cannon. It happens in the personal story. Hell, Trahearne does it right next to you. And if you actually read Last straw Marjory channels a spirit of a young boy to help her solve his murder. You can't say you've read the links if you've overlooked that major detail.

    The little boy wasn’t being channeled... that’s like saying anyone that interacts with the spirits of Ascalon are channeling them...

    And Traeherne wasn’t channelinng spirits he channels the magic of Orr when he performed the spell that cleansed the waters of Orr...

    For someone that says they know the lore has some gaps and leaps and bounds.

    I wasn't talking about that part. It was earlier in the story. He channels beings from the underworld when the group was surrounded by risen. Also there was a risen lich. Don't remember the story name.

    Also, she did channel his spirit. He wasn't just roaming the streets like that. And its stated that another necromancer banished him. Something that ritualists are capable of doing. You're really trying to split hairs to disprove it, but the facts don't lie. Necromancer channel the dead, they commune with spirits, they call forth energies and beings from the underworld and realm of torment. Clearly we can see the only difference between them is the ritualist is just more limited in the scope of what they can do.

    They don’t channel the dead they Reanimate the dead, and you keep making these claims without the parts to back them up Traeherne never channeled a Lich, the dead kids Spirit was there right after his death not from her channeling his spirit into herself or her magic she didn’t call upon his spirit from the Mists, you are stretching to make something fit that clearly doesn’t.

    Yes they do. Read the skill descriptions. They say summon. The necromancer from gw2 doesn't reanimate corpses anymore. They channel them from the underworld. Cannon. I believe there was an AMA about it before. But again you are just factually wrong.

    Summoning isn’t channeling.... and it doesn’t say that they are summoned from the Mists, and minions aren’t Spirits the only one close would be Shadow Fiend. And remember corpses aren’t exploitable objects due to game Engine and mechanics so no reanimating the minions from the actual dead bodies, same as how wells just erupt from the ground and not exploitable dead bodies.

    Please show me where it says that Necromancers channel Spirits from the Mists to fuel their spells.

    Only one class in Gw2 has that description on their magic.

    Please link the AMA again another claim without the link to them stating that.

    Actually They do. It's in the names of their skills. Spiteful spirit was a pretty popular one in gw1. You have your proof all over the game. You're just ignoring it. Blatantly for no reason other than a rev bias. Also I said I believe. Trying to find a minor comment back in 2012 would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Which they did talk about the ritualist being assimilated into other professions. Primarily necromancer and some guarding and a bit for ranger and maybe elementalist.

    Also to channel something is to direct towards something or some place. So yes, summoning is channeling.

    Summoning isn’t channeling morning the slightest, I can summon someone to me that doesn’t mean that I am handling that person. Again stretching.

    Are they channeling that spirit to fuel their spells? No. And Spiteful spirit is a hex not a spirit, and hexes are essentially curses.... again stretching.

    Channeling and communing

    Let’s look at what Revenant has that matches Ritualist.

    • Channel Legends(aka spirits) from the Mists to Power their spells/abilities
    • Communing with the spirits from the Mist(Revenants actually hold conversations with the Legends that they are channeling.)
    • Use Blindfolds to help focus/channel from the Mists
    • Class symbol is extremely similar (its and Eye just like Ritualist’s)
    • Can summon members of Kalla’s Warband with Renegade(essentially spirits from the Mists.)
    • Empower allies with the powers granted by the Legends(aka spirits)

    Let’s look what Necromancer has.

    • ...
    • ...

    Right. They don’t Do any of those things.

    TLDR

    Both Thematically and Mechanically Revenants are the spiritual successor of Ritualists, there is no way around that, they channel long gone figures of the past to grant them spells and abilities, they commune with those Legends of the past, they can summon spirits, they can empower allies with the abilities granted by the Legends, they share the same signature blindfold for the same reasons as the Ritualists, they have a similar class icon as the Ritualist.

    You clearly have never played gw1. I doubt you've played necro or the personal story either otherwise there is no way you'd make these claims. But welcome to the game!

    Lulz making claims and assumptions again, yes I played Gw1 and yes I have played Necro, I have played every class except Engi,

    again where’s the proof to back up your claims on Necro Channeling Spirits from the Mists to bestow Abilities and fuel their abilities, or Communing with the spirits from the Mists, or that Necromancer is more closely tied to Ritualist, it does none of those things listed above Necromancer is based on Necromancer, that’s it not on Ritualist. Their is a large handful of direct parallels from Ritualist to Revenant:

    • Actually Channel Spirits from the Mists to bestow spells and abilities
    • Actually Commune with those spirits from the Mists
    • Actually summon spirits to aid in combat
    • Actually empower allies with the powers granted by the spirits
    • Share the same iconic Blindfold for the exact same reason
    • Share a class icon which is an eye
      And these are all things in game for both the Players and Npc Revenant.....

    Again both Thematically and Mechanically Revenant is the spiritual successor to Ritualist.

    Again I will wait for the direct parallels and proof.

  • Ceit.7619Ceit.7619 Member ✭✭✭

    Just because you both can't be right doesn't mean you both can't be wrong. People keep trying to say which class is the spiritual successor of Ritualist. It's not Revenant or Necromancer. Guardian is the spiritual successor. It's all over their class. They already have Spirit Weapons in their base kit. Guardian is basically a melding of Paragon and Ritualist and would be the obvious choice over either Rev or Necro for such an elite spec, if it were to come about at all.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    @Ceit.7619 said:
    Just because you both can't be right doesn't mean you both can't be wrong. People keep trying to say which class is the spiritual successor of Ritualist. It's not Revenant or Necromancer. Guardian is the spiritual successor. It's all over their class. They already have Spirit Weapons in their base kit. Guardian is basically a melding of Paragon and Ritualist and would be the obvious choice over either Rev or Necro for such an elite spec, if it were to come about at all.

    @BlaqueFyre.5678
    @Lily.1935

    The nitpicking of what is channelling and what is summoning or what is death magoc and what not is pretty much a waist of time.

    First of all: if you do not want necro getting ritualist propose something else and dont argue why it wouldnt make sense magic wise.
    Ritualist profession does no longer exists and its 250 years past and it splittet into multiple professions. Monk, dervish and mainly paragon mixed with a bit ritu went into guard.
    The theme of channeling and the blindfold into rev and the astral spiritual magic partly into necro. Mechanic wise even ranger got something out if it.
    It does no longer exists.

    Second: Why the hech should an E-spec design be crippled if the kind of e-spec does not exactly fit the definition of magic the profession is using?
    Mist magic makes sense, death magic makes sense, even spiritual holy magic of guard makes sense, it doesnt matter, this discussion is more how you would design it and not that it wouldnt fit lore wise. Its just an unneccessarry discussion and far from the point.
    Ppl that want necro, make a necro proposal.
    Ppl that want rev, make a rev proposal and the same goes for guard.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Ceit.7619 said:
    Just because you both can't be right doesn't mean you both can't be wrong. People keep trying to say which class is the spiritual successor of Ritualist. It's not Revenant or Necromancer. Guardian is the spiritual successor. It's all over their class. They already have Spirit Weapons in their base kit. Guardian is basically a melding of Paragon and Ritualist and would be the obvious choice over either Rev or Necro for such an elite spec, if it were to come about at all.

    @BlaqueFyre.5678
    @Lily.1935

    The nitpicking of what is channelling and what is summoning or what is death magoc and what not is pretty much a waist of time.

    First of all: if you do not want necro getting ritualist propose something else and dont argue why it wouldnt make sense magic wise.
    Ritualist profession does no longer exists and its 250 years past and it splittet into multiple professions. Monk, dervish and mainly paragon mixed with a bit ritu went into guard.
    The theme of channeling and the blindfold into rev and the astral spiritual magic partly into necro. Mechanic wise even ranger got something out if it.
    It does no longer exists.

    Second: Why the hech should an E-spec design be crippled if the kind of e-spec does not exactly fit the definition of magic the profession is using?
    Mist magic makes sense, death magic makes sense, even spiritual holy magic of guard makes sense, it doesnt matter, this discussion is more how you would design it and not that it wouldnt fit lore wise. Its just an unneccessarry discussion and far from the point.
    Ppl that want necro, make a necro proposal.
    Ppl that want rev, make a rev proposal and the same goes for guard.

    I'll make up a full list of traits and skills tomorrow night than. I have a pretty good idea 9n just how to do that. There already is quite a bit of internal sysnergy available to them and I can show that to a lesser extent.

    Hell, might even try building one for revenant. Revenant is one of my favorite classes in GW2. But that one I'm running into quite a few very problematic snags in its design. Hmm I'll see what I can do. Necro first since that one is much easier to justify ritualist mechanics on.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Ceit.7619 said:
    Just because you both can't be right doesn't mean you both can't be wrong. People keep trying to say which class is the spiritual successor of Ritualist. It's not Revenant or Necromancer. Guardian is the spiritual successor. It's all over their class. They already have Spirit Weapons in their base kit. Guardian is basically a melding of Paragon and Ritualist and would be the obvious choice over either Rev or Necro for such an elite spec, if it were to come about at all.

    @BlaqueFyre.5678
    @Lily.1935

    The nitpicking of what is channelling and what is summoning or what is death magoc and what not is pretty much a waist of time.

    First of all: if you do not want necro getting ritualist propose something else and dont argue why it wouldnt make sense magic wise.
    Ritualist profession does no longer exists and its 250 years past and it splittet into multiple professions. Monk, dervish and mainly paragon mixed with a bit ritu went into guard.
    The theme of channeling and the blindfold into rev and the astral spiritual magic partly into necro. Mechanic wise even ranger got something out if it.
    It does no longer exists.

    Second: Why the hech should an E-spec design be crippled if the kind of e-spec does not exactly fit the definition of magic the profession is using?
    Mist magic makes sense, death magic makes sense, even spiritual holy magic of guard makes sense, it doesnt matter, this discussion is more how you would design it and not that it wouldnt fit lore wise. Its just an unneccessarry discussion and far from the point.
    Ppl that want necro, make a necro proposal.
    Ppl that want rev, make a rev proposal and the same goes for guard.

    I'll make up a full list of traits and skills tomorrow night than. I have a pretty good idea 9n just how to do that. There already is quite a bit of internal sysnergy available to them and I can show that to a lesser extent.

    Hell, might even try building one for revenant. Revenant is one of my favorite classes in GW2. But that one I'm running into quite a few very problematic snags in its design. Hmm I'll see what I can do. Necro first since that one is much easier to justify ritualist mechanics on.

    Also. Since theme is important I'll be giving Necro/rit a trident and Rev/rit a scepter+torch.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935

    I actually once thought out a rev E-Spec that would rather hit the dervish route.
    Its using razzah as a "legend" but as the class mechanic not the utilities.
    Utilities are glyphs that can be place wherever you like on the utility Bar.
    The class mechanic is the Legendary Avatar Razzah. You gain a new F2 abbility that lets you channel the avatar of your legend available which grants you 5 new weaponskills depending on legend. Using such a weaponskill counts as a Legendary Avatar skill and as a legend skill of your current channeled legend.
    The f2 is an upkeep that will not be cancelled by legendswap and it will count as a legendswap when you enter the "Avatar mode".
    So it taps into the old dervish elites. The glyphs should give more playstyle chances.
    Like the healing glyph on ventari will bind the tablet to your side and will just heal arround you when used or it will Block attacks when used on jallis and so on.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    @Lily.1935

    I actually once thought out a rev E-Spec that would rather hit the dervish route.
    Its using razzah as a "legend" but as the class mechanic not the utilities.
    Utilities are glyphs that can be place wherever you like on the utility Bar.
    The class mechanic is the Legendary Avatar Razzah. You gain a new F2 abbility that lets you channel the avatar of your legend available which grants you 5 new weaponskills depending on legend. Using such a weaponskill counts as a Legendary Avatar skill and as a legend skill of your current channeled legend.
    The f2 is an upkeep that will not be cancelled by legendswap and it will count as a legendswap when you enter the "Avatar mode".
    So it taps into the old dervish elites. The glyphs should give more playstyle chances.
    Like the healing glyph on ventari will bind the tablet to your side and will just heal arround you when used or it will Block attacks when used on jallis and so on.

    I thought of something similar only it was a legendary norn and each of the legends would correspond with a different norm spirit.

    I'm working out how Rev could work. And functionally, Urns can't work like they did in gw1 on them. It's just not possible without the spec being bloated. But I have an idea for how to make the spirits work.... They won't be the utility skills though. It would function better if they are the mechanic and the utility has some interaction with them. Plus I need to consider how it could have some sysnergy with revenant traits. So the primary build would be Ritualist stance and centuar stance.

    Necromancer has a much easier time. Shroud can become an urn. I have an idea that the grandmaster traits of the ritualist spec would actually change the skills of the urn much like how daredevil's grandmaster traits change the function of their dodge. Spirits also get to be the utility skills which means I can make them quite impactful. The 5 skills from the trident will come in handy as a support weapon.

    There will be some overlap between the two since there is just a few notes that absolutely have to be hit for a spec.

  • Just a quick note of what the Developers probably think: I think they also believe revenant to be the successor of ritualist and not necromancer soley because the pvp title for revenant that calls them a master ritualist or whatever. Without that I think its a fair 50/50 between who is right based on some things. But it is also made abundantly clear in gw1 that ritualist interact with death and stuff differently than necromancers, its a whole different process and magic they are working with, in fact ritualists don't use magic. The blindfold is also a clear nod. I've also had someone give me the argument that since rev is a martial profession that it can't be closer to ritualist than necro, but thats ridiculous. The skill spirit strength in gw1 made it possible to channel "spirits" to imbue you with power to be a martial fighter, basically how revenant is. I would actually run a spear/spirit strength build in pvp in gw1 that was pretty fun using both weapon skills and spells on a caster profession. That is basically how the rev is,, but now it has a more advanced and powerful version of spirit strength that is basically its legend mechanic.

    I may be on the revenant side, but I can't say the necro side is necessarily wrong. If I were to make a fake lore I would say there were a group of ritualist who focused on spirit strength and then eventually evolved into something similar to revenant, while maybe the majority of ritualists learned necromancer magic over time and just sorta shiftedn that way. But agian if these ritualists turned into necromancers, they are now using a totally different magic to obtain similar resaults.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just a quick note of what the Developers probably think: I think they also believe revenant to be the successor of ritualist and not necromancer soley because the pvp title for revenant that calls them a master ritualist or whatever. Without that I think its a fair 50/50 between who is right based on some things. But it is also made abundantly clear in gw1 that ritualist interact with death and stuff differently than necromancers, its a whole different process and magic they are working with, in fact ritualists don't use magic. The blindfold is also a clear nod. I've also had someone give me the argument that since rev is a martial profession that it can't be closer to ritualist than necro, but thats ridiculous. The skill spirit strength in gw1 made it possible to channel "spirits" to imbue you with power to be a martial fighter, basically how revenant is. I would actually run a spear/spirit strength build in pvp in gw1 that was pretty fun using both weapon skills and spells on a caster profession. That is basically how the rev is,, but now it has a more advanced and powerful version of spirit strength that is basically its legend mechanic.

    I may be on the revenant side, but I can't say the necro side is necessarily wrong. If I were to make a fake lore I would say there were a group of ritualist who focused on spirit strength and then eventually evolved into something similar to revenant, while maybe the majority of ritualists learned necromancer magic over time and just sorta shiftedn that way. But agian if these ritualists turned into necromancers, they are now using a totally different magic to obtain similar resaults.

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Revenant is to Ritualist what Death Knight is to Necromancer, If we're going to use WoW classes for reference.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    @Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:
    They look similar on paper, but in practice, nobody plays pure turret spammer or gyro spammer Engineer because kits are too valuable -

    Also because turrets and gyros have been nerfed into the ground because of PVP whining (a fate that would also befall hypothetical ritualist spirits, incidentally, because PVPers hate anything AI-controlled)

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Revenant is to Ritualist what Death Knight is to Necromancer, If we're going to use WoW classes for reference.

    So Superfluously related. Got it.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:
    They look similar on paper, but in practice, nobody plays pure turret spammer or gyro spammer Engineer because kits are too valuable -

    Also because turrets and gyros have been nerfed into the ground because of PVP whining (a fate that would also befall hypothetical ritualist spirits, incidentally, because PVPers hate anything AI-controlled)

    I use Gyros in Fractals and sometimes raids. Scrapper is a fairly decent healer.

    Also, Sand Shades are much like totems that Shamans use.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just a quick note of what the Developers probably think: I think they also believe revenant to be the successor of ritualist and not necromancer soley because the pvp title for revenant that calls them a master ritualist or whatever. Without that I think its a fair 50/50 between who is right based on some things. But it is also made abundantly clear in gw1 that ritualist interact with death and stuff differently than necromancers, its a whole different process and magic they are working with, in fact ritualists don't use magic. The blindfold is also a clear nod. I've also had someone give me the argument that since rev is a martial profession that it can't be closer to ritualist than necro, but thats ridiculous. The skill spirit strength in gw1 made it possible to channel "spirits" to imbue you with power to be a martial fighter, basically how revenant is. I would actually run a spear/spirit strength build in pvp in gw1 that was pretty fun using both weapon skills and spells on a caster profession. That is basically how the rev is,, but now it has a more advanced and powerful version of spirit strength that is basically its legend mechanic.

    I may be on the revenant side, but I can't say the necro side is necessarily wrong. If I were to make a fake lore I would say there were a group of ritualist who focused on spirit strength and then eventually evolved into something similar to revenant, while maybe the majority of ritualists learned necromancer magic over time and just sorta shiftedn that way. But agian if these ritualists turned into necromancers, they are now using a totally different magic to obtain similar resaults.

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Thematically Revenant has more similar to Ritualist than a Necromancer ever will or are you going to completely ignore that ingame and in lore Revenants actually Channel the Spirits Of long Dead Legends from the Mists to provides their spells/abilities, actually Commune with those spirits, use the Blindfolds for the exact same reasons, summon spirits to assist them and others, a similar class icon, and they have the Ritualist Title for PvP.

    There isn’t nearly as many if any actual direct parallels between Necromancer and Ritualist.

    Mechanically yes Engineer was the closest on some mechanics originally.

    And the only reason Revenant is a Heavy Armor Martial class is because Rytlock was a Warrior and he is the first Revenant, so the other Revenants follow suit and that’s why Revenant is called a Revenant and not Ritualist, because of that evolved distinction, and Rytlock learned his Magic from the Spirits Of the Mists.

  • @Lily.1935 said:

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Yeah I'm well aware engineer was supposed to fill the mechanical role of ritualist and failed at it. I know about spirit weapons on guard, turrets and kits on engi, and other sorts of ways they tried to translate ritualist stuff from gw1 to gw2, but they still never really replaced the ritualist. And to say you know that the title was supposed to be cute rather than just an actual sign that anet was trying to relate the two is just foolish. Sure maybe cute, but why do it if it has nothing to do with the class?

    And then yeah I guess I was wrong about the magic part, but just because there restoration and channeling is magic doesn't make them any closer to being necromancers. The fact of the matter is that necro magic is often purely offensive, or at least it doesn't ever create without destroying. By this I mean they aren't huge buffers or supporters because their magic doesn't allow for it. There magic is purely for sustaining and deteriorating everything around them. On the other hand you have ritualist magic that goes both ways, because it is differen't magic. It's a mix between monk and necro in a way. The only reason necro would be given a ritualist spec is because it would be the only way for necromancers to recieve a support build. That is about it. Of course these "lore laws" aren't set in stone and anet can make necro magic do whatever they want.

    Now you talk about the archetype, in which case you clearly state that you understand that there is a difference between a ritualist and necromancer. For all intents and purposes, ritualist is a shaman, a spiritual guru of sorts. And now necromancer is a necromancer, or warlock if you were to relate it to other common mmo tropes. Warlocks and shamans are different, agreed?

    Revenant thematically is not a death knight. It's more so a death knight in playstyle, but not in theme. Thematically I'ts a specific type of martial ritualist. Someone who channels spirits to give them strength and fight. The thing with ritualist is it isn't dark or light like necromancer and monk, its a neutral middle ground.

    Ritualists whole thing is closing there eyes and commune with mists in a sort of trance in order to support themeselves and teammates on the battlefield via spirits. That style and method of using magic and fighting is more similar to revenant. Ritualists are more like hippies, necromancers are more like goths. Both talk about weird afterlife stuff no one cares about, but that doesn't make them the same stereotype.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just a quick note of what the Developers probably think: I think they also believe revenant to be the successor of ritualist and not necromancer soley because the pvp title for revenant that calls them a master ritualist or whatever. Without that I think its a fair 50/50 between who is right based on some things. But it is also made abundantly clear in gw1 that ritualist interact with death and stuff differently than necromancers, its a whole different process and magic they are working with, in fact ritualists don't use magic. The blindfold is also a clear nod. I've also had someone give me the argument that since rev is a martial profession that it can't be closer to ritualist than necro, but thats ridiculous. The skill spirit strength in gw1 made it possible to channel "spirits" to imbue you with power to be a martial fighter, basically how revenant is. I would actually run a spear/spirit strength build in pvp in gw1 that was pretty fun using both weapon skills and spells on a caster profession. That is basically how the rev is,, but now it has a more advanced and powerful version of spirit strength that is basically its legend mechanic.

    I may be on the revenant side, but I can't say the necro side is necessarily wrong. If I were to make a fake lore I would say there were a group of ritualist who focused on spirit strength and then eventually evolved into something similar to revenant, while maybe the majority of ritualists learned necromancer magic over time and just sorta shiftedn that way. But agian if these ritualists turned into necromancers, they are now using a totally different magic to obtain similar resaults.

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Thematically Revenant has more similar to Ritualist than a Necromancer ever will or are you going to completely ignore that ingame and in lore Revenants actually Channel the Spirits Of long Dead Legends from the Mists to provides their spells/abilities, actually Commune with those spirits, use the Blindfolds for the exact same reasons, summon spirits to assist them and others, a similar class icon, and they have the Ritualist Title for PvP.

    There isn’t nearly as many if any actual direct parallels between Necromancer and Ritualist.

    Mechanically yes Engineer was the closest on some mechanics originally.

    And the only reason Revenant is a Heavy Armor Martial class is because Rytlock was a Warrior and he is the first Revenant, so the other Revenants follow suit and that’s why Revenant is called a Revenant and not Ritualist, because of that evolved distinction, and Rytlock learned his Magic from the Spirits Of the Mists.

    You're mistaken. They channel legends from the Mists. No where does it say those legends have to be dead. They just need to currently need to be a part of the mists. You're limited the scope of the revenant way too much.

    And No one actually agrees with you on the Parallels with Necromancer and ritualist. Its just a headcanon of yours. Since in GW1 there was. Visually, Skills, everything. For gods sake, many of their skills have direct parallels in both classes. AND I can prove that very easily. More easily than it is looking for a 6 year old interview.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Barbs
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mark_of_Pain
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Painful_Bond
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Blood
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Spirit
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Feast
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feast_of_Souls
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Undeath
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spiritleech_Aura

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lamentation
    OH hey, look! It cares about corpses. Well dang! That was a bonus I didn't expect to find!

    That's just in GW1. There clearly was a massive parallel between the two classes in that their only real difference is one dealt in the physical bodies while the other dealth in the spirit. But GW2 doesn't have that distinction.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Doom

    Tainted Shackles is strikingly similar to Binding chains.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Binding_Chains

    They also have an entire skill line based in spirit energies.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral

    Now lets look at all the naming conventions and traits that have anything to do with Spirits and such.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Boon

    One... ONE! Well, with all the "Revenant is ritualist" nonsense you've been spouting I'd expect a lot more than that. And that doesn't even have a GW1 corresponding skill. And just mentioning spirits isn't enough because Ranger mentions Nature spirits and so does Guardian. In fact, the guardian has more in common with Ritualist.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_weapon
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wrathful_Spirit

    But if we're going to include Spirit Boon its only fair to include necromancer's spiteful spirit

    The fact you can look at all the evidence and ignore all of it tells me A, you're trolling, or B you have such a strong cognitive bias toward Revenant that you can't admit that you're wrong based on pride. I already did admit that Revenant, Ritualist and Necromancer all share things in common. But you can't even seed that ground because it would ruin your flimsy argument.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just a quick note of what the Developers probably think: I think they also believe revenant to be the successor of ritualist and not necromancer soley because the pvp title for revenant that calls them a master ritualist or whatever. Without that I think its a fair 50/50 between who is right based on some things. But it is also made abundantly clear in gw1 that ritualist interact with death and stuff differently than necromancers, its a whole different process and magic they are working with, in fact ritualists don't use magic. The blindfold is also a clear nod. I've also had someone give me the argument that since rev is a martial profession that it can't be closer to ritualist than necro, but thats ridiculous. The skill spirit strength in gw1 made it possible to channel "spirits" to imbue you with power to be a martial fighter, basically how revenant is. I would actually run a spear/spirit strength build in pvp in gw1 that was pretty fun using both weapon skills and spells on a caster profession. That is basically how the rev is,, but now it has a more advanced and powerful version of spirit strength that is basically its legend mechanic.

    I may be on the revenant side, but I can't say the necro side is necessarily wrong. If I were to make a fake lore I would say there were a group of ritualist who focused on spirit strength and then eventually evolved into something similar to revenant, while maybe the majority of ritualists learned necromancer magic over time and just sorta shiftedn that way. But agian if these ritualists turned into necromancers, they are now using a totally different magic to obtain similar resaults.

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Thematically Revenant has more similar to Ritualist than a Necromancer ever will or are you going to completely ignore that ingame and in lore Revenants actually Channel the Spirits Of long Dead Legends from the Mists to provides their spells/abilities, actually Commune with those spirits, use the Blindfolds for the exact same reasons, summon spirits to assist them and others, a similar class icon, and they have the Ritualist Title for PvP.

    There isn’t nearly as many if any actual direct parallels between Necromancer and Ritualist.

    Mechanically yes Engineer was the closest on some mechanics originally.

    And the only reason Revenant is a Heavy Armor Martial class is because Rytlock was a Warrior and he is the first Revenant, so the other Revenants follow suit and that’s why Revenant is called a Revenant and not Ritualist, because of that evolved distinction, and Rytlock learned his Magic from the Spirits Of the Mists.

    You're mistaken. They channel legends from the Mists. No where does it say those legends have to be dead. They just need to currently need to be a part of the mists. You're limited the scope of the revenant way too much.

    And No one actually agrees with you on the Parallels with Necromancer and ritualist. Its just a headcanon of yours. Since in GW1 there was. Visually, Skills, everything. For gods sake, many of their skills have direct parallels in both classes. AND I can prove that very easily. More easily than it is looking for a 6 year old interview.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Barbs
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mark_of_Pain
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Painful_Bond
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Blood
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Spirit
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Feast
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feast_of_Souls
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Undeath
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spiritleech_Aura

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lamentation
    OH hey, look! It cares about corpses. Well dang! That was a bonus I didn't expect to find!

    That's just in GW1. There clearly was a massive parallel between the two classes in that their only real difference is one dealt in the physical bodies while the other dealth in the spirit. But GW2 doesn't have that distinction.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Doom

    Tainted Shackles is strikingly similar to Binding chains.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Binding_Chains

    They also have an entire skill line based in spirit energies.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral

    Now lets look at all the naming conventions and traits that have anything to do with Spirits and such.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Boon

    One... ONE! Well, with all the "Revenant is ritualist" nonsense you've been spouting I'd expect a lot more than that. And that doesn't even have a GW1 corresponding skill. And just mentioning spirits isn't enough because Ranger mentions Nature spirits and so does Guardian. In fact, the guardian has more in common with Ritualist.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_weapon
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wrathful_Spirit

    But if we're going to include Spirit Boon its only fair to include necromancer's spiteful spirit

    The fact you can look at all the evidence and ignore all of it tells me A, you're trolling, or B you have such a strong cognitive bias toward Revenant that you can't admit that you're wrong based on pride. I already did admit that Revenant, Ritualist and Necromancer all share things in common. But you can't even seed that ground because it would ruin your flimsy argument.

    Every single one of those “Legends” are dead and they are communing with their spirits and hammering the spirits, and no none of what I said are head canon, they are literal direct parallels no matter how much to disagree otherwise.

    And spiteful spirit isn’t a spirit it’s a hex.... common senses tells that. And it doesn’t say that they summon a spirit or channel a spirit to get the effect, do you need the definition of what a hex is?

    Again show me where Anet explicitly states that Necromancer Channels spirits to grant them abilities or Communes with spirits, oh wait you won’t find anything.

    The “Spectral” skills are not them channeling spirits literally it’s about taking life force from living characters and using that or assuming a spectral form or becoming a lich. Again a large stretch.

    The bias is extremely clear and it’s from you wanting to shoe horn Necromancer as a Ritualist when they are based non Necromancer from the original game. While I’m looking at this objectively from the plethora of actual provided statements and in game lore/mechanics.

    Show direct parallels of Gw2 Necromancer mirroring Ritualist. Remember I said direct parallels, not stretches of imagination.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just a quick note of what the Developers probably think: I think they also believe revenant to be the successor of ritualist and not necromancer soley because the pvp title for revenant that calls them a master ritualist or whatever. Without that I think its a fair 50/50 between who is right based on some things. But it is also made abundantly clear in gw1 that ritualist interact with death and stuff differently than necromancers, its a whole different process and magic they are working with, in fact ritualists don't use magic. The blindfold is also a clear nod. I've also had someone give me the argument that since rev is a martial profession that it can't be closer to ritualist than necro, but thats ridiculous. The skill spirit strength in gw1 made it possible to channel "spirits" to imbue you with power to be a martial fighter, basically how revenant is. I would actually run a spear/spirit strength build in pvp in gw1 that was pretty fun using both weapon skills and spells on a caster profession. That is basically how the rev is,, but now it has a more advanced and powerful version of spirit strength that is basically its legend mechanic.

    I may be on the revenant side, but I can't say the necro side is necessarily wrong. If I were to make a fake lore I would say there were a group of ritualist who focused on spirit strength and then eventually evolved into something similar to revenant, while maybe the majority of ritualists learned necromancer magic over time and just sorta shiftedn that way. But agian if these ritualists turned into necromancers, they are now using a totally different magic to obtain similar resaults.

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Thematically Revenant has more similar to Ritualist than a Necromancer ever will or are you going to completely ignore that ingame and in lore Revenants actually Channel the Spirits Of long Dead Legends from the Mists to provides their spells/abilities, actually Commune with those spirits, use the Blindfolds for the exact same reasons, summon spirits to assist them and others, a similar class icon, and they have the Ritualist Title for PvP.

    There isn’t nearly as many if any actual direct parallels between Necromancer and Ritualist.

    Mechanically yes Engineer was the closest on some mechanics originally.

    And the only reason Revenant is a Heavy Armor Martial class is because Rytlock was a Warrior and he is the first Revenant, so the other Revenants follow suit and that’s why Revenant is called a Revenant and not Ritualist, because of that evolved distinction, and Rytlock learned his Magic from the Spirits Of the Mists.

    You're mistaken. They channel legends from the Mists. No where does it say those legends have to be dead. They just need to currently need to be a part of the mists. You're limited the scope of the revenant way too much.

    And No one actually agrees with you on the Parallels with Necromancer and ritualist. Its just a headcanon of yours. Since in GW1 there was. Visually, Skills, everything. For gods sake, many of their skills have direct parallels in both classes. AND I can prove that very easily. More easily than it is looking for a 6 year old interview.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Barbs
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mark_of_Pain
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Painful_Bond
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Blood
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Spirit
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Feast
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feast_of_Souls
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Undeath
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spiritleech_Aura

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lamentation
    OH hey, look! It cares about corpses. Well dang! That was a bonus I didn't expect to find!

    That's just in GW1. There clearly was a massive parallel between the two classes in that their only real difference is one dealt in the physical bodies while the other dealth in the spirit. But GW2 doesn't have that distinction.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Doom

    Tainted Shackles is strikingly similar to Binding chains.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Binding_Chains

    They also have an entire skill line based in spirit energies.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral

    Now lets look at all the naming conventions and traits that have anything to do with Spirits and such.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Boon

    One... ONE! Well, with all the "Revenant is ritualist" nonsense you've been spouting I'd expect a lot more than that. And that doesn't even have a GW1 corresponding skill. And just mentioning spirits isn't enough because Ranger mentions Nature spirits and so does Guardian. In fact, the guardian has more in common with Ritualist.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_weapon
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wrathful_Spirit

    But if we're going to include Spirit Boon its only fair to include necromancer's spiteful spirit

    The fact you can look at all the evidence and ignore all of it tells me A, you're trolling, or B you have such a strong cognitive bias toward Revenant that you can't admit that you're wrong based on pride. I already did admit that Revenant, Ritualist and Necromancer all share things in common. But you can't even seed that ground because it would ruin your flimsy argument.

    Every single one of those “Legends” are dead and they are communing with their spirits and hammering the spirits, and no none of what I said are head canon, they are literal direct parallels no matter how much to disagree otherwise.

    And spiteful spirit isn’t a spirit it’s a hex.... common senses tells that. And it doesn’t say that they summon a spirit or channel a spirit to get the effect, do you need the definition of what a hex is?

    Again show me where Anet explicitly states that Necromancer Channels spirits to grant them abilities or Communes with spirits, oh wait you won’t find anything.

    The “Spectral” skills are not them channeling spirits literally it’s about taking life force from living characters and using that or assuming a spectral form or becoming a lich. Again a large stretch.

    The bias is extremely clear and it’s from you wanting to shoe horn Necromancer as a Ritualist when they are based non Necromancer from the original game. While I’m looking at this objectively from the plethora of actual provided statements and in game lore/mechanics.

    Show direct parallels of Gw2 Necromancer mirroring Ritualist. Remember I said direct parallels, not stretches of imagination.

    I showed you countless times. We're done with this conversation. I'm ignoring you now since You can't seed any ground at all even when I've explicitly gave you dozens of links showing that fact.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just a quick note of what the Developers probably think: I think they also believe revenant to be the successor of ritualist and not necromancer soley because the pvp title for revenant that calls them a master ritualist or whatever. Without that I think its a fair 50/50 between who is right based on some things. But it is also made abundantly clear in gw1 that ritualist interact with death and stuff differently than necromancers, its a whole different process and magic they are working with, in fact ritualists don't use magic. The blindfold is also a clear nod. I've also had someone give me the argument that since rev is a martial profession that it can't be closer to ritualist than necro, but thats ridiculous. The skill spirit strength in gw1 made it possible to channel "spirits" to imbue you with power to be a martial fighter, basically how revenant is. I would actually run a spear/spirit strength build in pvp in gw1 that was pretty fun using both weapon skills and spells on a caster profession. That is basically how the rev is,, but now it has a more advanced and powerful version of spirit strength that is basically its legend mechanic.

    I may be on the revenant side, but I can't say the necro side is necessarily wrong. If I were to make a fake lore I would say there were a group of ritualist who focused on spirit strength and then eventually evolved into something similar to revenant, while maybe the majority of ritualists learned necromancer magic over time and just sorta shiftedn that way. But agian if these ritualists turned into necromancers, they are now using a totally different magic to obtain similar resaults.

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Thematically Revenant has more similar to Ritualist than a Necromancer ever will or are you going to completely ignore that ingame and in lore Revenants actually Channel the Spirits Of long Dead Legends from the Mists to provides their spells/abilities, actually Commune with those spirits, use the Blindfolds for the exact same reasons, summon spirits to assist them and others, a similar class icon, and they have the Ritualist Title for PvP.

    There isn’t nearly as many if any actual direct parallels between Necromancer and Ritualist.

    Mechanically yes Engineer was the closest on some mechanics originally.

    And the only reason Revenant is a Heavy Armor Martial class is because Rytlock was a Warrior and he is the first Revenant, so the other Revenants follow suit and that’s why Revenant is called a Revenant and not Ritualist, because of that evolved distinction, and Rytlock learned his Magic from the Spirits Of the Mists.

    You're mistaken. They channel legends from the Mists. No where does it say those legends have to be dead. They just need to currently need to be a part of the mists. You're limited the scope of the revenant way too much.

    And No one actually agrees with you on the Parallels with Necromancer and ritualist. Its just a headcanon of yours. Since in GW1 there was. Visually, Skills, everything. For gods sake, many of their skills have direct parallels in both classes. AND I can prove that very easily. More easily than it is looking for a 6 year old interview.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Barbs
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mark_of_Pain
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Painful_Bond
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Blood
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Spirit
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Feast
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feast_of_Souls
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Undeath
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spiritleech_Aura

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lamentation
    OH hey, look! It cares about corpses. Well dang! That was a bonus I didn't expect to find!

    That's just in GW1. There clearly was a massive parallel between the two classes in that their only real difference is one dealt in the physical bodies while the other dealth in the spirit. But GW2 doesn't have that distinction.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Doom

    Tainted Shackles is strikingly similar to Binding chains.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Binding_Chains

    They also have an entire skill line based in spirit energies.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral

    Now lets look at all the naming conventions and traits that have anything to do with Spirits and such.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Boon

    One... ONE! Well, with all the "Revenant is ritualist" nonsense you've been spouting I'd expect a lot more than that. And that doesn't even have a GW1 corresponding skill. And just mentioning spirits isn't enough because Ranger mentions Nature spirits and so does Guardian. In fact, the guardian has more in common with Ritualist.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_weapon
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wrathful_Spirit

    But if we're going to include Spirit Boon its only fair to include necromancer's spiteful spirit

    The fact you can look at all the evidence and ignore all of it tells me A, you're trolling, or B you have such a strong cognitive bias toward Revenant that you can't admit that you're wrong based on pride. I already did admit that Revenant, Ritualist and Necromancer all share things in common. But you can't even seed that ground because it would ruin your flimsy argument.

    Every single one of those “Legends” are dead and they are communing with their spirits and hammering the spirits, and no none of what I said are head canon, they are literal direct parallels no matter how much to disagree otherwise.

    And spiteful spirit isn’t a spirit it’s a hex.... common senses tells that. And it doesn’t say that they summon a spirit or channel a spirit to get the effect, do you need the definition of what a hex is?

    Again show me where Anet explicitly states that Necromancer Channels spirits to grant them abilities or Communes with spirits, oh wait you won’t find anything.

    The “Spectral” skills are not them channeling spirits literally it’s about taking life force from living characters and using that or assuming a spectral form or becoming a lich. Again a large stretch.

    The bias is extremely clear and it’s from you wanting to shoe horn Necromancer as a Ritualist when they are based non Necromancer from the original game. While I’m looking at this objectively from the plethora of actual provided statements and in game lore/mechanics.

    Show direct parallels of Gw2 Necromancer mirroring Ritualist. Remember I said direct parallels, not stretches of imagination.

    I showed you countless times. We're done with this conversation. I'm ignoring you now since You can't seed any ground at all even when I've explicitly gave you dozens of links showing that fact.

    You have not give any links from Anet that says Gw2 Necromancer channel Spirits from the Mist to provide their spells/abilities or that they commune with the spirits from the Mists(I can show ingame that Revenant does both of those), you have provided links to your stretches of imagination that you want to be true.

    I have provided direct parallels of Revenant to Ritualist (see above), and Anet even bestowed the Champions Ritualist title to players that play Revenant in PvP, they didn’t give that title to Necromancers.

    Again provide the direct parallels, I will wait, but I already know the outcome.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Yeah I'm well aware engineer was supposed to fill the mechanical role of ritualist and failed at it. I know about spirit weapons on guard, turrets and kits on engi, and other sorts of ways they tried to translate ritualist stuff from gw1 to gw2, but they still never really replaced the ritualist. And to say you know that the title was supposed to be cute rather than just an actual sign that anet was trying to relate the two is just foolish. Sure maybe cute, but why do it if it has nothing to do with the class?

    And then yeah I guess I was wrong about the magic part, but just because there restoration and channeling is magic doesn't make them any closer to being necromancers. The fact of the matter is that necro magic is often purely offensive, or at least it doesn't ever create without destroying. By this I mean they aren't huge buffers or supporters because their magic doesn't allow for it. There magic is purely for sustaining and deteriorating everything around them. On the other hand you have ritualist magic that goes both ways, because it is differen't magic. It's a mix between monk and necro in a way. The only reason necro would be given a ritualist spec is because it would be the only way for necromancers to recieve a support build. That is about it. Of course these "lore laws" aren't set in stone and anet can make necro magic do whatever they want.

    Now you talk about the archetype, in which case you clearly state that you understand that there is a difference between a ritualist and necromancer. For all intents and purposes, ritualist is a shaman, a spiritual guru of sorts. And now necromancer is a necromancer, or warlock if you were to relate it to other common mmo tropes. Warlocks and shamans are different, agreed?

    Revenant thematically is not a death knight. It's more so a death knight in playstyle, but not in theme. Thematically I'ts a specific type of martial ritualist. Someone who channels spirits to give them strength and fight. The thing with ritualist is it isn't dark or light like necromancer and monk, its a neutral middle ground.

    Ritualists whole thing is closing there eyes and commune with mists in a sort of trance in order to support themeselves and teammates on the battlefield via spirits. That style and method of using magic and fighting is more similar to revenant. Ritualists are more like hippies, necromancers are more like goths. Both talk about weird afterlife stuff no one cares about, but that doesn't make them the same stereotype.

    In theme its a Death knight. They are extremely martial who use dead energies. That's a death knight. Well, Revenant isn't so limited to just the dead, but you get the picture... maybe.

    Shamans and warlocks aren't all that different. The Warlock in most games is a bit more liniar than the Shaman, being debuffers primarily where as the Shaman has debuffing and buffing. Which the necromancer did do in GW1, but currently lacks in GW2 much to the outrage of the entire Necromancer Community.

    And Ritualists? Happier? Defiantly not. They're stiffer, sure. Happier? Hell no! one of the Functionalities of the Ritualist in GW1 was that they would make their spirits pay for the cost of their potent magics. Where as Necromancer's took that pain onto themselves. Ritualists were pretty Dark. Much darker than you're giving them credit for. The Spirits they summoned were literally shackled and writhing in agony. They were forcibly pulled from the Underworld to serve a living being against their will. Ritualists were arguably worse. Where as Necromancers afflict the living and those who are enemies while reanimating corpses, the ritualist continues the dead's suffering.

    "Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master." — The Guild Wars Factions Manuscripts

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just a quick note of what the Developers probably think: I think they also believe revenant to be the successor of ritualist and not necromancer soley because the pvp title for revenant that calls them a master ritualist or whatever. Without that I think its a fair 50/50 between who is right based on some things. But it is also made abundantly clear in gw1 that ritualist interact with death and stuff differently than necromancers, its a whole different process and magic they are working with, in fact ritualists don't use magic. The blindfold is also a clear nod. I've also had someone give me the argument that since rev is a martial profession that it can't be closer to ritualist than necro, but thats ridiculous. The skill spirit strength in gw1 made it possible to channel "spirits" to imbue you with power to be a martial fighter, basically how revenant is. I would actually run a spear/spirit strength build in pvp in gw1 that was pretty fun using both weapon skills and spells on a caster profession. That is basically how the rev is,, but now it has a more advanced and powerful version of spirit strength that is basically its legend mechanic.

    I may be on the revenant side, but I can't say the necro side is necessarily wrong. If I were to make a fake lore I would say there were a group of ritualist who focused on spirit strength and then eventually evolved into something similar to revenant, while maybe the majority of ritualists learned necromancer magic over time and just sorta shiftedn that way. But agian if these ritualists turned into necromancers, they are now using a totally different magic to obtain similar resaults.

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Thematically Revenant has more similar to Ritualist than a Necromancer ever will or are you going to completely ignore that ingame and in lore Revenants actually Channel the Spirits Of long Dead Legends from the Mists to provides their spells/abilities, actually Commune with those spirits, use the Blindfolds for the exact same reasons, summon spirits to assist them and others, a similar class icon, and they have the Ritualist Title for PvP.

    There isn’t nearly as many if any actual direct parallels between Necromancer and Ritualist.

    Mechanically yes Engineer was the closest on some mechanics originally.

    And the only reason Revenant is a Heavy Armor Martial class is because Rytlock was a Warrior and he is the first Revenant, so the other Revenants follow suit and that’s why Revenant is called a Revenant and not Ritualist, because of that evolved distinction, and Rytlock learned his Magic from the Spirits Of the Mists.

    You're mistaken. They channel legends from the Mists. No where does it say those legends have to be dead. They just need to currently need to be a part of the mists. You're limited the scope of the revenant way too much.

    And No one actually agrees with you on the Parallels with Necromancer and ritualist. Its just a headcanon of yours. Since in GW1 there was. Visually, Skills, everything. For gods sake, many of their skills have direct parallels in both classes. AND I can prove that very easily. More easily than it is looking for a 6 year old interview.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Barbs
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mark_of_Pain
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Painful_Bond
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Blood
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Spirit
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Feast
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feast_of_Souls
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Undeath
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spiritleech_Aura

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lamentation
    OH hey, look! It cares about corpses. Well dang! That was a bonus I didn't expect to find!

    That's just in GW1. There clearly was a massive parallel between the two classes in that their only real difference is one dealt in the physical bodies while the other dealth in the spirit. But GW2 doesn't have that distinction.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Doom

    Tainted Shackles is strikingly similar to Binding chains.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Binding_Chains

    They also have an entire skill line based in spirit energies.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral

    Now lets look at all the naming conventions and traits that have anything to do with Spirits and such.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Boon

    One... ONE! Well, with all the "Revenant is ritualist" nonsense you've been spouting I'd expect a lot more than that. And that doesn't even have a GW1 corresponding skill. And just mentioning spirits isn't enough because Ranger mentions Nature spirits and so does Guardian. In fact, the guardian has more in common with Ritualist.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_weapon
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wrathful_Spirit

    But if we're going to include Spirit Boon its only fair to include necromancer's spiteful spirit

    The fact you can look at all the evidence and ignore all of it tells me A, you're trolling, or B you have such a strong cognitive bias toward Revenant that you can't admit that you're wrong based on pride. I already did admit that Revenant, Ritualist and Necromancer all share things in common. But you can't even seed that ground because it would ruin your flimsy argument.

    Every single one of those “Legends” are dead and they are communing with their spirits and hammering the spirits, and no none of what I said are head canon, they are literal direct parallels no matter how much to disagree otherwise.

    And spiteful spirit isn’t a spirit it’s a hex.... common senses tells that. And it doesn’t say that they summon a spirit or channel a spirit to get the effect, do you need the definition of what a hex is?

    Again show me where Anet explicitly states that Necromancer Channels spirits to grant them abilities or Communes with spirits, oh wait you won’t find anything.

    The “Spectral” skills are not them channeling spirits literally it’s about taking life force from living characters and using that or assuming a spectral form or becoming a lich. Again a large stretch.

    The bias is extremely clear and it’s from you wanting to shoe horn Necromancer as a Ritualist when they are based non Necromancer from the original game. While I’m looking at this objectively from the plethora of actual provided statements and in game lore/mechanics.

    Show direct parallels of Gw2 Necromancer mirroring Ritualist. Remember I said direct parallels, not stretches of imagination.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw

    Read it. Again and again and again! Once you're done go away because you clearly have such a major bias that you can't see past your own nose. I'm done talking with you.

  • @Lily.1935 said:

    And No one actually agrees with you on the Parallels with Necromancer and ritualist. Its just a headcanon of yours. Since in GW1 there was. Visually, Skills, everything. For gods sake, many of their skills have direct parallels in both classes. AND I can prove that very easily. More easily than it is looking for a 6 year old interview.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Barbs
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mark_of_Pain
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Painful_Bond
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Blood
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Spirit
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Feast
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feast_of_Souls
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Undeath
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spiritleech_Aura

    I'm sorry but although the skills are almost parallels in terms of what it does on paper, they are totally different in what the suggestion of what the magic is. Ritaulists are clearly feasting on spirit energy and using spirit energy to perform all these skills. Necro on the otherhand is clearly leeching the life energy from physical beings. Even feast of souls and soul feast are different in what the skill is doing. The necro one is eating a dead corpse basically, possibly eating the soul suggested by the skill name. The ritualist one is in no way feasting on a dead corpse and is just repurposing spirit energy it had already summoned and brought in from the mists or wherever. Offering of spirit and blood seem basically the same thing at first, basically a blood letting for energy. The difference is the necromancer can just make a sacrifice of their blood for power while the ritualist can basically use spirit energy if its within earshot. The necromancer doesn't have the ability to do this on their own, not without taking ritualist as a second profession and using what is clearly different spells. Spiritleech aura and order of undeath similarities are sorta a stretch because all they are are minion buffing abilities. I'd make the clear distinction that necro makes sacrifices to use his magic while the rit doesn't, but I don't think these skills are that closely related just because its a common type of ability for summoner classes. The same can sort of be said for barbs, mark of pain, and painful bond, but I will say these are more similar.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lamentation
    OH hey, look! It cares about corpses. Well dang! That was a bonus I didn't expect to find!

    This one is a good example, I agree it supports your argument. If I were to plays devil advocate and think of any excuse of why it doesn't it would be that they included corpses as part of the function just due to the nature of the skill and the thought that maybe spirit availability wouldn't be adequate.

    That's just in GW1. There clearly was a massive parallel between the two classes in that their only real difference is one dealt in the physical bodies while the other dealth in the spirit. But GW2 doesn't have that distinction.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Doom

    Same name, totally different skills that in no way function the same or share any similarities outside of a one word name.

    I would almost say this is similar if magical chain skills were a unique thing, heres a few:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chains_of_Light
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Entangle
    Oh, and rev has two..
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forced_Engagement
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shackling_Wave

    They also have an entire skill line based in spirit energies.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral

    Now lets look at all the naming conventions and traits that have anything to do with Spirits and such.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Boon

    One... ONE! Well, with all the "Revenant is ritualist" nonsense you've been spouting I'd expect a lot more than that. And that doesn't even have a GW1 corresponding skill. And just mentioning spirits isn't enough because Ranger mentions Nature spirits and so does Guardian. In fact, the guardian has more in common with Ritualist.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_weapon
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wrathful_Spirit

    But if we're going to include Spirit Boon its only fair to include necromancer's spiteful spirit

    The fact you can look at all the evidence and ignore all of it tells me A, you're trolling, or B you have such a strong cognitive bias toward Revenant that you can't admit that you're wrong based on pride. I already did admit that Revenant, Ritualist and Necromancer all share things in common. But you can't even seed that ground because it would ruin your flimsy argument.

    The whole theme is channeling spirits. The spirits are then channeled and the skills we are left with are not "spirit named skills", they are the terrestial skills that the spirits we are invoking used when they were alive. the reason we don't have a bunch of skills called spirit strike, or spectral walk, or any of that is because none of the spirits and legends we are communing with are ritualists. That's the whole point. In this theory that revenants are the spiritual and thematic successor of ritualist we are assuming that we are not running around using channeling, restoring magic, or spawning power. In fact it's a different, almost advanced version of communing. Instead of summoning some paper thin spirit weakly into the material world, we commune the spirit into our own bodies and let them takeover. This spirit that takes over our bodies can be of any profession. That's why shiro has mobile, asssassin like skills. This is why you can't use the "well revenant barely has any skill names or anything from ritualist" argument. Shiro is not going to have any ritualist abilities because he himself was never a ritualist.

    Our combat and utility abilities as well as traits are not ritualistic outside of a few mist-imbued weapon attacks. Why? well our trait lines go in accordance with the legends that are communed, let me repeat, communed, these spirits are communed into our bodies. So outside of invoaction there should be no "ritualist" type traits. That's because these traits coincide with other professions.

    Instead of using ashes or weapons as a medium for channeling and communing, we now use our bodies as the medium. that's the ritual, thats the ritualistic sacrifice that the revenant makes. It allows itself to get partway possessed by a dead guy/gal in order to gain power. The way revenant then uses this legends/spirits skills is similar to when a ritualist would use the ashes or weapons of a canthan "legend or spirit" to use their skills are strengthen them, or even protect them. If ritualist had an ash skill for shiro I would suspect it would behave similarly to revenants elite jade winds skill.

  • And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Just a quick note of what the Developers probably think: I think they also believe revenant to be the successor of ritualist and not necromancer soley because the pvp title for revenant that calls them a master ritualist or whatever. Without that I think its a fair 50/50 between who is right based on some things. But it is also made abundantly clear in gw1 that ritualist interact with death and stuff differently than necromancers, its a whole different process and magic they are working with, in fact ritualists don't use magic. The blindfold is also a clear nod. I've also had someone give me the argument that since rev is a martial profession that it can't be closer to ritualist than necro, but thats ridiculous. The skill spirit strength in gw1 made it possible to channel "spirits" to imbue you with power to be a martial fighter, basically how revenant is. I would actually run a spear/spirit strength build in pvp in gw1 that was pretty fun using both weapon skills and spells on a caster profession. That is basically how the rev is,, but now it has a more advanced and powerful version of spirit strength that is basically its legend mechanic.

    I may be on the revenant side, but I can't say the necro side is necessarily wrong. If I were to make a fake lore I would say there were a group of ritualist who focused on spirit strength and then eventually evolved into something similar to revenant, while maybe the majority of ritualists learned necromancer magic over time and just sorta shiftedn that way. But agian if these ritualists turned into necromancers, they are now using a totally different magic to obtain similar resaults.

    I'm Sure some devs do. But The successor of the Ritualist was the engineer, not the Revenant. I mentioned that in my first post and this has been mentioned multiple times in interviews with them. Ritualist was designed as "How can we make a gadget tech user without gadgets and tech?" sort of idea. And ritualist was born. So when it came time for GW2 they actually made the profession they wanted to make in the first place. I never claimed the Necromancer was the successor. No, I always knew it was the engineer. Most people do. The Title in PvP was just supposed to be cute. It wasn't supposed to mean anything. Revenant could never become a ritualist.

    The Ritualist also did use magic in the lore. Its also hard to ignore that a good chunk of their spell designations were spells or the fact that they used restoration magic. The lore states that the Binding rituals themselves are not magic, but the urns, weapons and other spells absolutely are. But in the lore its stated that the Ritualist really took the use of magic after the gods gave it to them (according to human lore) very well and used it to make their practice more potent and reliable.

    In terms of what Archetype the ritualist actually is? The Ritualist is a shaman. Which mechanically the engineer is still most similar. Thematically the Necromancer is. The revenant thematically is more of a death knight. Which does have cross over with necromancer... Ironically.

    Thematically Revenant has more similar to Ritualist than a Necromancer ever will or are you going to completely ignore that ingame and in lore Revenants actually Channel the Spirits Of long Dead Legends from the Mists to provides their spells/abilities, actually Commune with those spirits, use the Blindfolds for the exact same reasons, summon spirits to assist them and others, a similar class icon, and they have the Ritualist Title for PvP.

    There isn’t nearly as many if any actual direct parallels between Necromancer and Ritualist.

    Mechanically yes Engineer was the closest on some mechanics originally.

    And the only reason Revenant is a Heavy Armor Martial class is because Rytlock was a Warrior and he is the first Revenant, so the other Revenants follow suit and that’s why Revenant is called a Revenant and not Ritualist, because of that evolved distinction, and Rytlock learned his Magic from the Spirits Of the Mists.

    You're mistaken. They channel legends from the Mists. No where does it say those legends have to be dead. They just need to currently need to be a part of the mists. You're limited the scope of the revenant way too much.

    And No one actually agrees with you on the Parallels with Necromancer and ritualist. Its just a headcanon of yours. Since in GW1 there was. Visually, Skills, everything. For gods sake, many of their skills have direct parallels in both classes. AND I can prove that very easily. More easily than it is looking for a 6 year old interview.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Barbs
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mark_of_Pain
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Painful_Bond
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Blood
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Offering_of_Spirit
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soul_Feast
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feast_of_Souls
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Order_of_Undeath
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spiritleech_Aura

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lamentation
    OH hey, look! It cares about corpses. Well dang! That was a bonus I didn't expect to find!

    That's just in GW1. There clearly was a massive parallel between the two classes in that their only real difference is one dealt in the physical bodies while the other dealth in the spirit. But GW2 doesn't have that distinction.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Doom

    Tainted Shackles is strikingly similar to Binding chains.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tainted_Shackles
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Binding_Chains

    They also have an entire skill line based in spirit energies.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral

    Now lets look at all the naming conventions and traits that have anything to do with Spirits and such.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Boon

    One... ONE! Well, with all the "Revenant is ritualist" nonsense you've been spouting I'd expect a lot more than that. And that doesn't even have a GW1 corresponding skill. And just mentioning spirits isn't enough because Ranger mentions Nature spirits and so does Guardian. In fact, the guardian has more in common with Ritualist.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_weapon
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wrathful_Spirit

    But if we're going to include Spirit Boon its only fair to include necromancer's spiteful spirit

    The fact you can look at all the evidence and ignore all of it tells me A, you're trolling, or B you have such a strong cognitive bias toward Revenant that you can't admit that you're wrong based on pride. I already did admit that Revenant, Ritualist and Necromancer all share things in common. But you can't even seed that ground because it would ruin your flimsy argument.

    Every single one of those “Legends” are dead and they are communing with their spirits and hammering the spirits, and no none of what I said are head canon, they are literal direct parallels no matter how much to disagree otherwise.

    And spiteful spirit isn’t a spirit it’s a hex.... common senses tells that. And it doesn’t say that they summon a spirit or channel a spirit to get the effect, do you need the definition of what a hex is?

    Again show me where Anet explicitly states that Necromancer Channels spirits to grant them abilities or Communes with spirits, oh wait you won’t find anything.

    The “Spectral” skills are not them channeling spirits literally it’s about taking life force from living characters and using that or assuming a spectral form or becoming a lich. Again a large stretch.

    The bias is extremely clear and it’s from you wanting to shoe horn Necromancer as a Ritualist when they are based non Necromancer from the original game. While I’m looking at this objectively from the plethora of actual provided statements and in game lore/mechanics.

    Show direct parallels of Gw2 Necromancer mirroring Ritualist. Remember I said direct parallels, not stretches of imagination.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Marjory's_Story:_The_Last_Straw

    Read it. Again and again and again! Once you're done go away because you clearly have such a major bias that you can't see past your own nose. I'm done talking with you.

    Again none of those say communing from the Mists or channeling from the Mists, literally the boy died right next to her and never moved on to the Mists like a lot of spirit in game that never moved on and everyone can interact with...

    Those are a desperate stretch to shorhorn the Necromancer as a ritualist.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    "Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master." — The Guild Wars Factions Manuscripts

    Kinda like how Shiro and Mallyx taunt us and demand that we release them?

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    "Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist can and will be its master." — The Guild Wars Factions Manuscripts

    Kinda like how Shiro and Mallyx taunt us and demand that we release them?

    By communing with the channeled spirits that provide me with their skills and abilities ingame to boot.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

    Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

    Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

    Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

    Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

    Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

    Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

    Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

    Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

    Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

    Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

    Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

    Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

    Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

    Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

    Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

    Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

    Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

    Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

    Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

    Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

    You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

    And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2018

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

    Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

    Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

    Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

    Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

    Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

    Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

    Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

    You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

    And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

    Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

    It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

    Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

    Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

    Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

    Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

    Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

    Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

    Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

    Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

    You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

    And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

    Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

    It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

    Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

    Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

    Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

    Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

    Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

    Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

    Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

    Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

    Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

    You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

    And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

    Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

    It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

    Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

    Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

    Oh really? Do Engineers commune with figures from the Mists? Do they channel those figures to gain their spells and abilities? Do they have a class title referring to the Ritualist? Do they share an iconic armor piece for the exact same reason? Do they share a similar class icon? No? Right because Anet made Revenant have all those things, and made it the spiritual successor. No matter how much certain people close their eyes and ears and yell no.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

    Again, Engineer is the mechanical successor, Revenant got the rest of the Ritualist class fantasy. Also, the ingame things that we keep posting as proof you just brush over with posts like that Marjory short story in which she see's a ghost as if that is suppose to be something special.

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

    Again, Engineer is the mechanical successor, Revenant got the rest of the Ritualist class fantasy. Also, the ingame things that we keep posting as proof you just brush over with posts like that Marjory short story in which she see's a ghost as if that is suppose to be something special.

    She communes with the ghost. She doesn't just see it she communes with it.

    Commune: share one's intimate thoughts or feelings with (someone or something), especially when the exchange is on a spiritual level.

    Pretty sure the kids death is fairly intimate. By definition that is what she was doing. And the ritualist was broken up across multiple classes. I'm not brushing that off, I acknowledged that multiple times.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

    Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

    Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

    Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

    Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

    Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

    Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

    Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

    You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

    And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

    Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

    It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

    Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

    Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

    Oh really? Do Engineers commune with figures from the Mists? Do they channel those figures to gain their spells and abilities? Do they have a class title referring to the Ritualist? Do they share an iconic armor piece for the exact same reason? Do they share a similar class icon? No? Right because Anet made Revenant have all those things, and made it the spiritual successor. No matter how much certain people close their eyes and ears and yell no.

    The Blindfold wasn't an Iconic Armor piece of the Ritualist. It was common armor in GW1. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blindfold The head dressing was used in GW1 to better focus their senses. But they didn't need it to maintain that connection. The way their animations worked was that they would close their eyes during casting to better commune with them. Yes this is a parallel. But its not Unique to the Ritualist. Channeling magic in GW1 suggests that the freedom of motion is required. Each of the Casters in GW1 were extremely animate in the way they moved. Ritualist was the most animate.

    Engineer is the successor. Mechanically. Thematically its broken up across professions. Including but not limited to Necromancer, Guardian and Revenant. This was confirmed in an interview. ALSO there was a massive Stink over the Revenant being added into the game because it absolutely TRAMPLED over necromancer's theme. It was a massive complaint in the Necromancer forums. I like Revenant, I do. I like Ritualists. They are not the same thing. They have similarities, but nothing that isn't superficial.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2018

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    And this is also why I think a ritualist espec would be great for revenant. This is because he would channel a legend that uses the same magic as he does and would probably make rev feel more thematically cohesive.

    Mechanically it doesn't work. Thematically it doesn't work either. You guys are ignoring some glaring flaws. The Revenant's mechanic is actually very very anti synergistic with the mechanics that the Ritualist would demand. Urns, Spirits and spirit weapons. None of it mechaniclly would be sound without a complete redesign of the revenant profession.

    Thematically it doesn't work either. Revenant is a Martial profession. Ritualist is a spell caster/ritual dancer. Dancing in heavy armor isn't impossible, but it doesn't offer the freedom or range of movement that cloth does. This is the reason that you take penalties in D&D as a caster for wearing plat. You need special training to be able to handle that. Because spells and incantations typically require some sort of ritualistic dance. Which is emphasized and exaggerated with the ritualist. Because the Revenant used the magic of the legends to self enhance their own magical and physical abilities and borrow their magic they are more akin to A death knight or dark knight. Which do have an ability called Revenant btw. Because of course they would. Revenant just means "the returned" usually from the dead. Which is a major theme of the death knight. Magic is both more and less linear than it is in GW2. In a lot of ways, its less in others its more. Shamans in D&D do use necromancer, as do Warlocks, Wizards, Sorcerers, Death knights, you get the point. Hopefully. But the defining factors of the ritualist can't work. Even as I'm conceptualizing it i'm working my damnedest to be sure to include internal synergy while keeping the theme intact. Its not only difficult, it might be impossible.

    Mechanically its an even bigger issue than just the flavor of the ritualist being a dance. You can't have the Utility be spirits unless you want Kalla 2.0 and that doesn't feel anything like a ritualist. You could make it so the spirits persist when you legend swap but then that is basically doubling up on power which means they would need to be nerfed into the ground. And they couldn't have a turn over skill to help expand on the desired flavor. Or you have turn over skills on the spirits and then they function how they should but now you have a problem that unless you want to get the full benefit out of it you need to ignore the revenant's primary mechanic of legend swapping. But the issues don't end there because you are then limited to just 5 spirits as opposed to 6 which means you have to be even more selective about what must go in. You can't fill out the Defensive theme because then your offensive one will be lacking. And you can't fill out your offensive theme because the defensive one will be lacking. You could make spirits a part of the F bar but now you're hard locked into a max of 4, which makes them even Less intuitive than before. You could try putting spirits on the F bar, utility and weapons but then you lack room for weapon spells, urns and the healing element which is required for this sort of spec. No matter what you do the design of spirits suffers unless you hyper focus it into a very linear path and then it would only be able to execute one type of Ritualist build and have no room to expand outward like the ritualist did. So no urn builds, no Deadly weapons builds, no healer builds. You shoehorn one aspect into it. And the suggestions from Revevant players I've seen are so overwhelmingly lacking as a Ritualist spec and every single one of them has all over the above problems. And no one has offered a solution that doesn't completely change the mechanics and theme of the revenant.

    Urns are another problem since they are supposed to act as kits in GW2. You could make them Auras I suppose, but that creates another problem. How would the Urn be any different than what Glint is supposed to provide? And having them as actual kits creates profession bloat. Skill swap, weapon swap on top of a set of kits? This is what we call profession bloat and the closest to that is Engineer and there is a reason its currently the second least popular class. And part of it is because of how bloated its mechanic is. Urns would either take up design space already given to the revenant making neither spec unique or contribute to profession bloat. In either case its an absolute terrible fit for the revenant.

    Thematically, it doesn't work because of the Martial nature of the Revenant. If its martial behavior wasn't an issue the Guardian could be just as good of a choice. And Mechanically it doesn't work because of how specific the revenant's mechanics are and how their skills, traits and mechanic works. And trust me, I've been trying to figure out how it could work for years! I've been considering this topic since the revenant's introduction. I predicted that Revenant wouldn't get ritualist for the first expansion because of these glaring issues and again predicted that revenant wouldn't get ritualist in PoF. But boy did Anet try, and Renegade as cool as it is, its "spirits" are the most clumsy part of the whole elite spec. And I like Renegade! But the Spirits cast too slow and their impact is minor compared to what ritualist spirits would need to be. And that's exactly what you'd get all over again. Renegade wants to actively be using its skills and Ritualist isn't that class. They are slow, methodical, calculated and have few skill strikes with huge impact. More akin to what the necromancer does now than anything else.

    Side note: Before HoT came out I made a post on the forums about necromancer stating rather bluntly "Death shroud is a mechanic I'd have expected to see on something like a Ritualist, not a necromancer."....... True story, I've complained a lot about Death shroud... Partially because its a mechanic better suited for ritualist and not so much necromancer. But here we are with the perfect mechanic for a ritualist on the necromancer already. Both of them are death mages and both call spirits. And both have strong parallels with each other. Clearly the obvious choice is necromancer. Anyone who suggests otherwise needs to actually go back and play ritualist in GW1. Not just the SoS build. No. The Urns build, the healers, the protective spirits, the weapon spells. Everything in its theme is something that the necromancer community wants and needs for their profession. And Nothing the ritualist has to offer isn't already achieved in another way on revenant. The Necromancer community is starving for a healer spec! A proper healer spec! Revenant has it. Necromancer is starving for party support! Revenant has it in spades. So you need to ask yourself. Not just does it work thematically(it doesn't but we'll pretend for a moment it does) but what does it offer mechanically? Because the answer is very clear that it doesn't offer anything mechanically to the revenant that they need.

    Sorry but Anet already decided the Revenant is the spiritual successor of Ritualist hence why so many direct parallels and them giving Revenant the Champions Ritualist Title, their Iconic Blindfold and an extremely similar Class Icon on top of actually communing with figures from the Mists and Channelimg them to provide them with Spells and abilities, maybe actually play the game instead of trying to shoehorn a fanfic of Necromancer being Ritualists, and it’s easy to give them “kits” aka Urns, as shown by the Fskills that don’t have anything to do with Swapping legends....

    You see, you see Similarities with them. And I see a couple but nothing that isn't Superficial. And their Icon doesn't look like an Eye to me. More like someone looking onto a horizon. They're not as similar as you claim. The Ritualist title is just a nod to the GW1 profession. It doesn't confirm a similarity. Guardian has paragon I believe and those two classes have more differences than similarities. Same is true for revenant.

    And Also You keep moving the goal post which Is why I have no interest in talking with you. You say "They don't use spirits" I show you using spirits and interacting with them on an intimate level. You then say "No, they're not channeling them." I show you how the necromancer connects with the underworld and realm of torment, calling forth otherworldly energies and you say "But those aren't exactly spirits." What you are doing is intentionally trying to make it more and more specific to the point that NO ONE actually fits that description. Its called moving the goal post. It is a logical fallacy. And its not constructive to the conversation. Even the people who agree with you don't agree that the Necromancer and Ritualist have nothing in common.

    Similarities that are direct parallels and Roy Chrochner even said the Revenant class icon is an Eye, and the use of the Blindfold is used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist.......

    It’s not superficial when the class actually channels figures from the Mists for its spells and abilities, and Actually communes with those figures from the Mists.... and Anet gave them the Ritualist title which you can’t get by playin any other class....

    Again stretching to try and block out the truth, Anet made the Revenant the spiritual successor of the Ritualist, and everything points to it.

    Again, the Spiritual successor is the Engineer... This has been common knowledge since Launch.

    Oh really? Do Engineers commune with figures from the Mists? Do they channel those figures to gain their spells and abilities? Do they have a class title referring to the Ritualist? Do they share an iconic armor piece for the exact same reason? Do they share a similar class icon? No? Right because Anet made Revenant have all those things, and made it the spiritual successor. No matter how much certain people close their eyes and ears and yell no.

    The Blindfold wasn't an Iconic Armor piece of the Ritualist. It was common armor in GW1. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blindfold The head dressing was used in GW1 to better focus their senses. But they didn't need it to maintain that connection. The way their animations worked was that they would close their eyes during casting to better commune with them. Yes this is a parallel. But its not Unique to the Ritualist. Channeling magic in GW1 suggests that the freedom of motion is required. Each of the Casters in GW1 were extremely animate in the way they moved. Ritualist was the most animate.

    Engineer is the successor. Mechanically. Thematically its broken up across professions. Including but not limited to Necromancer, Guardian and Revenant. This was confirmed in an interview. ALSO there was a massive Stink over the Revenant being added into the game because it absolutely TRAMPLED over necromancer's theme. It was a massive complaint in the Necromancer forums. I like Revenant, I do. I like Ritualists. They are not the same thing. They have similarities, but nothing that isn't superficial.

    If the Blindfold wasn’t an iconic armor piece of the Ritualist then why is one of the first things in the classes class description on why they hood their eyes?

    Thematically it is Revenant being the spiritual successor they have the most direct parallels to Ritualist, and again Anet gave only that class the title of Ritualist, they took the Theme of Ritualist Channeling Spirits from the Mists to provide their spells and abilities and mechanically gave that to Revenant, the theme of Ritualists Communing with spirits of the Mists, Revenants actually talk to the figures they Channel, Revenants can summon spirits to assist them in combat, Revenants also are a support class to empower allies. Then there’s the class icon and the Blindfold used for the exact same reason as the Ritualist. In Gw2 There is no other class that channel figures from the Mists and Communes with them, and no other class was given the Ritualist title.....

    And please where is that interview, if it’s on the Internet it’s still there, it sounds like another claim with nothing to back it.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Based on the disagreements and inability to find common ground for it as an Elite spec the best possible solution to this problem I presented seems to be to create Ritualist as a class. Revenant mechanically can't achieve its design goals and Enough of the player population would be unhappy with Necromancer getting it neither should. This is the first compromise I can come up with.

    The second compromise Is to allow for Elite specs on both Necromancer and Revenant that take heavy inspiration from the GW1 Ritualist. So A proposal for both. Envoy for Revenant and Shaman for necromancer.

  • Elric.4713Elric.4713 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Based on the disagreements and inability to find common ground for it as an Elite spec the best possible solution to this problem I presented seems to be to create Ritualist as a class. Revenant mechanically can't achieve its design goals and Enough of the player population would be unhappy with Necromancer getting it neither should. This is the first compromise I can come up with.

    The second compromise Is to allow for Elite specs on both Necromancer and Revenant that take heavy inspiration from the GW1 Ritualist. So A proposal for both. Envoy for Revenant and Shaman for necromancer.

    To be honest, what I'd like Necromancer to get if we get to go to Cantha is either some kind of Vampiric specialization (Echovald), or even one that is Lovecraft inspired (Jade Sea).

    👻Legendary Ritualist Stance - Invoke the power of the legendary ritualist Master Togo.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elric.4713 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Based on the disagreements and inability to find common ground for it as an Elite spec the best possible solution to this problem I presented seems to be to create Ritualist as a class. Revenant mechanically can't achieve its design goals and Enough of the player population would be unhappy with Necromancer getting it neither should. This is the first compromise I can come up with.

    The second compromise Is to allow for Elite specs on both Necromancer and Revenant that take heavy inspiration from the GW1 Ritualist. So A proposal for both. Envoy for Revenant and Shaman for necromancer.

    To be honest, what I'd like Necromancer to get if we get to go to Cantha is either some kind of Vampiric specialization (Echovald), or even one that is Lovecraft inspired (Jade Sea).

    I'd rather they didn't. Vampiric elite spec would be a tank without reliable support for allies and would be mostly forgotten in PvE. It would probably be nerfed into the ground for PvP. And honestly, I and most the necromancer community want to summon spirits. Because we are necromancers.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Here are some Beginning concepts I have for a Ritualist variant for Revenant and Necromancer.

    Envoy: Envoke the power of Emissary Heleyne Legendary Spirit Stance

    We don't have much story on her, but we do know she was quite the Villain in Canthan lore. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Envoy But Anet could expand on the Crimes of the Envoys and she has the coolest design in my opinion and seems like she was a ritualist of her time. Master Togo is fine, but he's too weak for the power I want to Give and evoking a being who was extremely powerful, perhaps more powerful in death, would be a really cool flavor win. But lets get to the mechanic!

    Legendary Aspect: Your f2-3 gain access to Totems of your Unused Legends. They may be ordered in any way you like. So, lets say you have Heleyne and we'll say Ventari as the Two legends as the swap. Well, these Skills will very depending on Shiro, Mallyx and Jalis Ironhammer. You'll call Totems of these legends which could provide some form of additional support to your allies and be kept up most the time. Shiro could Provide a Shiroken Buff of blades, Mallyx could pull conditions onto itself from you and allies and transfer them or corrupt boons, Jalis could offer periodic damage reduction, Ventari could provide heals and Heleyne could do energy stuff.

    Weapons: I was thinking Scepter/focus or Scepter/Torch. These weapons would be supportive, controlling and Energy manipulating. The focus/torch would need to grant energy in some way, I feel its the only way to really make this work.

    Utility: I'm a bit stumped on what to do here. Conjuring more spirits from the mists to act as totems could work alright but ultimately I don't want to tread on the same ground as Herald or Renegade.

    Necromancer's I'll work out later, I really like the idea of using the Urn's mechanical identity with shroud so that's going to stay the same. And as for the Spirits, those can stay the same as well in my initial post. The major Difference is the lore which would be taken from Flame Legion charr as opposed to the Canthans. Not that Cantha couldn't work with it.

  • I feel like the whole Ritualist mechanic is only best suited for GW1. GW2 gamestyle is very dynamic and relies heavily on mobility. Ritualist gamestyle is heavy on turtling. The Rev and Engi mechanics are similar but are more mobile friendly than the GW1 Spirit Rit.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What the heck happened to this thread.
    Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

    • Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
    • Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
    • yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

    At the end it doesnt really matter.

    So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

    Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

    And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

    Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).
    Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i doubt it.
    skills that use ai are constantly complained about because of their ai
    most ritualist mechanics have been put in the other classes already
    and ritualist theme is just a variation on revenant

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    What the heck happened to this thread.
    Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

    • Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
    • Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
    • yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

    At the end it doesnt really matter.

    So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

    Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

    And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

    Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).
    Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

    I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

    I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    What the heck happened to this thread.
    Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

    • Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
    • Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
    • yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

    At the end it doesnt really matter.

    So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

    Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

    And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

    Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).
    Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

    I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

    I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

    Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    What the heck happened to this thread.
    Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

    • Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
    • Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
    • yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

    At the end it doesnt really matter.

    So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

    Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

    And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

    Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).
    Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

    I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

    I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

    Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

    Thanks. It took me MONTHS to hammer that one out, and about 8 hours to get it all down for the forums since I had to do some research on names and constantly check traits and such to make sure I wasn't trampling on other designs. I know Necromancer very well, but that doesn't mean I'm immune to missing something. The Ritualist Elite spec I've been conceptualizing for years. And the Vampire elite spec has had similar time, both being almost as old of concepts for me as the reaper is. Of course, I had previous versions of the Deathcap too. My prototype version was the Lich, which had some similar themes, only was capable of being a heavy tank. I feel Deathcap is far superior to that previous design. Although Flesh of My flesh had always been its elite.

    I personally love summoner Classes. My two favorite classes in GW2 are the necromancer and Engineer. So having a tone of little minions, spirits, turrets, gyros and so on really fits my play style. I also like debuffing, which Necromancer and engineer are both great at. As is Revenant. Revenant isn't a good summoner though. It breaks their flow, which can be seen with their Renegade spec. Which is still my favorite spec for Revenant...

    When I do post the Ritualist Elite spec though, it'll be on the necromancer Forums.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    What the heck happened to this thread.
    Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

    • Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
    • Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
    • yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

    At the end it doesnt really matter.

    So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

    Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

    And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

    Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).
    Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

    I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

    I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

    Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

    Thanks. It took me MONTHS to hammer that one out, and about 8 hours to get it all down for the forums since I had to do some research on names and constantly check traits and such to make sure I wasn't trampling on other designs. I know Necromancer very well, but that doesn't mean I'm immune to missing something. The Ritualist Elite spec I've been conceptualizing for years. And the Vampire elite spec has had similar time, both being almost as old of concepts for me as the reaper is. Of course, I had previous versions of the Deathcap too. My prototype version was the Lich, which had some similar themes, only was capable of being a heavy tank. I feel Deathcap is far superior to that previous design. Although Flesh of My flesh had always been its elite.

    I personally love summoner Classes. My two favorite classes in GW2 are the necromancer and Engineer. So having a tone of little minions, spirits, turrets, gyros and so on really fits my play style. I also like debuffing, which Necromancer and engineer are both great at. As is Revenant. Revenant isn't a good summoner though. It breaks their flow, which can be seen with their Renegade spec. Which is still my favorite spec for Revenant...

    When I do post the Ritualist Elite spec though, it'll be on the necromancer Forums.

    One problem for your vision is that minions and pets and any other AI are most often flawed and Anet needs to consider a rework of many of them, to make something like your concept really shine. I am a Ranger main since i can remember and Pet Ai and utility needs heavy improvement if they want to build on that foundation and necro is not different regarding its minions.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    What the heck happened to this thread.
    Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

    • Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
    • Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
    • yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

    At the end it doesnt really matter.

    So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

    Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

    And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

    Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).
    Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

    I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

    I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

    Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

    Thanks. It took me MONTHS to hammer that one out, and about 8 hours to get it all down for the forums since I had to do some research on names and constantly check traits and such to make sure I wasn't trampling on other designs. I know Necromancer very well, but that doesn't mean I'm immune to missing something. The Ritualist Elite spec I've been conceptualizing for years. And the Vampire elite spec has had similar time, both being almost as old of concepts for me as the reaper is. Of course, I had previous versions of the Deathcap too. My prototype version was the Lich, which had some similar themes, only was capable of being a heavy tank. I feel Deathcap is far superior to that previous design. Although Flesh of My flesh had always been its elite.

    I personally love summoner Classes. My two favorite classes in GW2 are the necromancer and Engineer. So having a tone of little minions, spirits, turrets, gyros and so on really fits my play style. I also like debuffing, which Necromancer and engineer are both great at. As is Revenant. Revenant isn't a good summoner though. It breaks their flow, which can be seen with their Renegade spec. Which is still my favorite spec for Revenant...

    When I do post the Ritualist Elite spec though, it'll be on the necromancer Forums.

    One problem for your vision is that minions and pets and any other AI are most often flawed and Anet needs to consider a rework of many of them, to make something like your concept really shine. I am a Ranger main since i can remember and Pet Ai and utility needs heavy improvement if they want to build on that foundation and necro is not different regarding its minions.

    That's not really a flaw with the concept, just Arena Net. And I feel that it works well enough now for it to function. I frequently use a handful of minions, Shadow Fiend and Flesh Golem, and they function well enough. The spirits would end up having the same limitations since half would need to attack.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    What the heck happened to this thread.
    Its just a pointless discussion of who would get the spec. Make suggestions of hiw it could be implemented in a meaningful way instead of arguing who would have the edge on the theme.

    • Yes rev commmunicates with beings in the mists (they do not need to be dead, as seen as you communicating with joko as he was "alive" in the mists veibg a lich and all)
    • Yes guardian got sonething from ritualist
    • yes necromancer had thematically a lot in common being a manipulator of death and spirit energy

    At the end it doesnt really matter.

    So as a question to all of you: Why not both?

    Rev could get Razzah as an E-Spec that gives revs more communicative powers to dtep into aspects if their legends and use glyphs to manipulate their power through them.

    And Necromancer could become a communicator between the worlds and use its power to gather the ash of the fallen and create spells that supportd and strengthens its allies.

    Your debate is as pointless as comparing fire magic from berserker and fire magic of an elementalist. Both is fire, both burns and hurts, just used in different manners from a different combat viewpoint. In the end fire is fire and spurits are spirits. Idc if both can use it, in the end i want a decent E-Spec for both of them because rev hasnt any good E-Spec that ibteracts with the class or increases their diversity and necro hasnt got any good support/heal spec (scourge is more a condi tank spec IMO than real support).
    Debate about mechanics and how it would work out and not who deserves the theme more, thats just childish.

    I'm working on a Ritualist elite spec for Necromancer as a proof of concept. Its one of two I'm working on right now. The other being a "vampire" elite spec I'm probably going to call the pulse tracker. If you've read https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/49593/the-deathcap-minion-master-elite-spec#latest this post, you can see just how dedicated I am to filling out a theme. Its taking me a while though since I'm trying to balance a few ideas.

    I have a concept of their grandmaster traits being drastic changes to their mechanic much like the Daredevil's elite spec changes their dodge mechanic. A preview idea for that is the grandmaster's being called Ashes of the Father, Ashes of the Mother and Ashes of the Child, which would get you the mechanics of Urn of the Father, Urn of the Mother and Urn of the child, respectively. What that exactly means you'll have to wait and see.

    Interesting concept. Good read. I thought about the PoF missions with the thrall commanding.

    Thanks. It took me MONTHS to hammer that one out, and about 8 hours to get it all down for the forums since I had to do some research on names and constantly check traits and such to make sure I wasn't trampling on other designs. I know Necromancer very well, but that doesn't mean I'm immune to missing something. The Ritualist Elite spec I've been conceptualizing for years. And the Vampire elite spec has had similar time, both being almost as old of concepts for me as the reaper is. Of course, I had previous versions of the Deathcap too. My prototype version was the Lich, which had some similar themes, only was capable of being a heavy tank. I feel Deathcap is far superior to that previous design. Although Flesh of My flesh had always been its elite.

    I personally love summoner Classes. My two favorite classes in GW2 are the necromancer and Engineer. So having a tone of little minions, spirits, turrets, gyros and so on really fits my play style. I also like debuffing, which Necromancer and engineer are both great at. As is Revenant. Revenant isn't a good summoner though. It breaks their flow, which can be seen with their Renegade spec. Which is still my favorite spec for Revenant...

    When I do post the Ritualist Elite spec though, it'll be on the necromancer Forums.

    One problem for your vision is that minions and pets and any other AI are most often flawed and Anet needs to consider a rework of many of them, to make something like your concept really shine. I am a Ranger main since i can remember and Pet Ai and utility needs heavy improvement if they want to build on that foundation and necro is not different regarding its minions.

    That's not really a flaw with the concept, just Arena Net. And I feel that it works well enough now for it to function. I frequently use a handful of minions, Shadow Fiend and Flesh Golem, and they function well enough. The spirits would end up having the same limitations since half would need to attack.

    I did not claum that your concept is flawed. I siad AI is flawed which hinders your concept to really shine. Control over minions are lacking and it would be quiet cool if they could implement a weapon mechanic that summons minions when you kill someone with a specific weaponskill and give them specific bonus effects with other weaponskills.
    I think ranger weaponskills that interact with the pet also should get some improvements and trait interactions and the pet utilities (F2) need to be ramped up a notch.
    After that the way is open to specialise such profession more into these regions.

  • If they do add ritualist (they won’t) it would have to be a rev because the PvP title for revs is Champion Ritualist. In my opinion, revs match up with rits better than any other class thematically.

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