Ele Is Still Trash Btw - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Ele Is Still Trash Btw

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  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    Please don't buff this braindead class. What you want? More facetank ability? More viable randomspam through the attunements? More easy to land range instant dmg? There is not a single working build on Ele need any buff.

    All these way too much dmg and way too much sustain builds need nerfs. Some a bit more than others true (and soulbeast for example clearly needs more nerfs than an Ele) but the meta is so insanely easy and lame, the game got way too noob friendly. Thats why so many good player like Sindrener leave. No competition in all meanings, the only challenge are the lame and carrying builds the low skilled ppl play, not the player themself. So you either play some boring ez stuff yourself or you maybe get rekt by player much worse than you, simply because of build advantage. Both is not rly fun. And with more and more good player leaving you will have lower and lower match quality in ranked and ATs. Anet kisses the dear casual butt a bit too much lately and also give way too less love to their competitive gamemodes. It is so sad to see this high potential game going down so fast lately in PvP and WvW.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Please don't buff this braindead class. What you want? More facetank ability? More viable randomspam through the attunements? More easy to land range instant dmg? There is not a single working build on Ele need any buff.

    All these way too much dmg and way too much sustain builds need nerfs. Some a bit more than others true (and soulbeast for example clearly needs more nerfs than an Ele) but the meta is so insanely easy and lame, the game got way too noob friendly. Thats why so many good player like Sindrener leave. No competition in all meanings, the only challenge are the lame and carrying builds the low skilled ppl play, not the player themself. So you either play some boring ez stuff yourself or you maybe get rekt by player much worse than you, simply because of build advantage. Both is not rly fun. And with more and more good player leaving you will have lower and lower match quality in ranked and ATs. Anet kisses the dear casual butt a bit too much lately and also give way too less love to their competitive gamemodes. It is so sad to see this high potential game going down so fast lately in PvP and WvW.

    Pointless wall of text..if you want balance in a MMO then there should be only a single profession for everybody to choose...if you don't want this then tag along with the rest or leave the game, your line of thinking is exactly what destroy the equilibrium of a MMO, rage induced comments for the sake of venting.

    In the end of the day we're playing a MMO and if you want to insist with your "skill talk" then have the decency to leave the game for something that actually requires personal skill to succeed ...not playing a MMO with 9 different professions and then having a tantrum

    Wanna be taken seriously ? Then it's time for people like you to realize that Balance=equal start = same stats for everybody, same skills and same map and not a MMO with several class options at different base HP/armor level

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:
    S/D weaver is impossible to kill the target with many condition remove

    Kill it with direct damage. Condis take way too long indeed if it works at all.

    The problem is not survivability though. It is the lack of damage and group support. In team fights, you can just ignore the weaver and kill off his team. On the side nodes, just sustain and save your cooldowns, he will never drive you off point (yes, depends on skill level and specific build, but that's the general advise).

    There are some issues with (reliable) condi cleanse only on water and prot only by arcane (for weaver at least, since almost zero auras)... but I don't even expect them to rework the whole class. Just fix S/D a bit. And make tempest, FA and stuff a bit more viable. For a start. Ele community just didn't get the latest nerfs...

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Please don't buff this braindead class. What you want? More facetank ability? More viable randomspam through the attunements? More easy to land range instant dmg? There is not a single working build on Ele need any buff.
    (...)

    Can you elaborate a bit? Do you not want to buff ele but nerf the other classes? Or do you actually think ele is fine compared to spellbreaker, holosmith, condi mirage? How is ele more braindead than those classes?

    I'd be fine with nerfing overall sustain and damage on every class/elite spec. But we all know that is impossible for the intern working on PVP. :wink:

    €: Why was this moved out of the PVP section lol? Asking for buffs is not okay but asking for various nerfs for specific classes is cool?

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    10 months of being ok and not super good vs the 4 years ele had of being pretty darn good...... cant say i feel bad for ele

  • Kako.1930Kako.1930 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    10 months of being ok and not super good vs the 4 years ele had of being pretty darn good...... cant say i feel bad for ele

    Translation: Ele was good at one time so it's ok to nerf it into Oblivion and leave it that way. (Just don't touch my main unless it's a buff.)

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kako.1930 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    10 months of being ok and not super good vs the 4 years ele had of being pretty darn good...... cant say i feel bad for ele

    Translation: Ele was good at one time so it's ok to nerf it into Oblivion and leave it that way. (Just don't touch my main unless it's a buff.)

    nope i dont agree

    Translation dont complain because you could be worse off.
    Rev/Necro/ Previous forms of Engi.

  • Ele has always had the issue of being too squishy. It was my first hero at launch and quickly abandoned for warrior or guardian since they have more sustain. They need decent dps and some ability to sustain solo if need be.

  • Kako.1930Kako.1930 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Kako.1930 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    10 months of being ok and not super good vs the 4 years ele had of being pretty darn good...... cant say i feel bad for ele

    Translation: Ele was good at one time so it's ok to nerf it into Oblivion and leave it that way. (Just don't touch my main unless it's a buff.)

    nope i dont agree

    Translation dont complain because you could be worse off.
    Rev/Necro/ Previous forms of Engi.

    Lol, necro and engi never had bad spots as bad as ele. There was a time where ele were so bad that it was a meme to use them and there are several videos joking about how to play ele well by switching to something else. No other profession had it that bad, and to compare it to rev is a joke since rev hasn't even been in the game since the beginning and if you compare totals, ele had more time being a joke profession than rev even existed. Engineer and necro both had times where they weren't #1, but they were never as bad as eles lowest point either. Over the years, I've played ele, engi, and necro, and ele is the only profession I've pvped with where my team harassed me for not switching to something else and often refused to play the match simply because they had an ele on their team.

    "Oh great, we have an ele. We lose. Afk."

    This happened all the time. If you've never played ele and only know it by being beaten by someone who vastly outplayed you then you wouldn't know any of this though.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Please don't buff this braindead class. What you want? More facetank ability? More viable randomspam through the attunements? More easy to land range instant dmg? There is not a single working build on Ele need any buff.
    (...)

    Can you elaborate a bit? Do you not want to buff ele but nerf the other classes? Or do you actually think ele is fine compared to spellbreaker, holosmith, condi mirage? How is ele more braindead than those classes?

    I'd be fine with nerfing overall sustain and damage on every class/elite spec. But we all know that is impossible for the intern working on PVP. :wink:

    €: Why was this moved out of the PVP section lol? Asking for buffs is not okay but asking for various nerfs for specific classes is cool?

    Like warrior, soulbeast, engi (to some extent also still condi/hybrid mirage and bunker chrono) and all these other way too much sustain with way too much dmg builds also sword weaver needs nerfs, maybe a bit less than some of the others yes.
    It is ok to have builds can survive well, even outnumbered, it is a role in conquest needs to get filled by someone but surviving should need skill and these surviving builds shouldn't have high dmg in addition. These bruiser builds just have everything (lot of them even high mobility on top of it) and can fill almost every role with the same build.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Please don't buff this braindead class. What you want? More facetank ability? More viable randomspam through the attunements? More easy to land range instant dmg? There is not a single working build on Ele need any buff.
    (...)

    Can you elaborate a bit? Do you not want to buff ele but nerf the other classes? Or do you actually think ele is fine compared to spellbreaker, holosmith, condi mirage? How is ele more braindead than those classes?

    I'd be fine with nerfing overall sustain and damage on every class/elite spec. But we all know that is impossible for the intern working on PVP. :wink:

    €: Why was this moved out of the PVP section lol? Asking for buffs is not okay but asking for various nerfs for specific classes is cool?

    Like warrior, soulbeast, engi (to some extent also still condi/hybrid mirage and bunker chrono) and all these other way too much sustain with way too much dmg builds also sword weaver needs nerfs, maybe a bit less than some of the others yes.
    It is ok to have builds can survive well, even outnumbered, it is a role in conquest needs to get filled by someone but surviving should need skill and these surviving builds shouldn't have high dmg in addition. These bruiser builds just have everything (lot of them even high mobility on top of it) and can fill almost every role with the same build.

    Ele surely does not have too much damage if you refer to mender S/D. Whenever I fight one, i simply go for some easy defensive rotation and can save my CDs for +1. It is boring, but easy to deal with. Noone caps or decaps.
    Other amulets just add some damage and pay severly with sustain. Avatar and sage do have advantages in some setups, disadvantages in others. Same goes for earth and air, arcane is a must have.
    So while the other bruisers do have the same sustain, they do have a ton more damage. If you want to reduce that - fine, I am in! But if they don't, they should adjust weaver's damage. Again, just a bit, not too much. Some ranges, some cover conditions would work wonders.
    (Sidenote: A warrior kills an ele in 2-3 seconds when he does not move or anything. A S/D weaver takes a lot more, like 10 seconds depending on the current attunements.)

    However, how can you still complain about FA? That has been nerfed into oblivion. It was cheap, I didn't like the playstyle either. But it was easy prey for mesmers and thieves, so it was never OP at all - current rev meta would just let it explode.

    Tempest? Severly lackluster. Good and strong healing, some auras might need a rework (fire aura... srsly), nice projectile hate. But one single spellbreaker or holosmith just close to it would shut down any overload. It lacks stability, it lacks aegis, it is too easily interrupted and shut down.

    Staff is a meme. I saw one the other day, he did a great job and bursted some people away - in the first fight. Then he got focused and died waaay too quickly. No chance.

    Any other "working" build you have in mind?

    TLDR: S/D needs minor tweaks (or the other bruisers brought down a bit), the other ele builds are currently completely underpowered.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Please don't buff this braindead class. What you want? More facetank ability? More viable randomspam through the attunements? More easy to land range instant dmg? There is not a single working build on Ele need any buff.
    (...)

    Can you elaborate a bit? Do you not want to buff ele but nerf the other classes? Or do you actually think ele is fine compared to spellbreaker, holosmith, condi mirage? How is ele more braindead than those classes?

    I'd be fine with nerfing overall sustain and damage on every class/elite spec. But we all know that is impossible for the intern working on PVP. :wink:

    €: Why was this moved out of the PVP section lol? Asking for buffs is not okay but asking for various nerfs for specific classes is cool?

    Like warrior, soulbeast, engi (to some extent also still condi/hybrid mirage and bunker chrono) and all these other way too much sustain with way too much dmg builds also sword weaver needs nerfs, maybe a bit less than some of the others yes.
    It is ok to have builds can survive well, even outnumbered, it is a role in conquest needs to get filled by someone but surviving should need skill and these surviving builds shouldn't have high dmg in addition. These bruiser builds just have everything (lot of them even high mobility on top of it) and can fill almost every role with the same build.

    Ele surely does not have too much damage if you refer to mender S/D. Whenever I fight one, i simply go for some easy defensive rotation and can save my CDs for +1. It is boring, but easy to deal with. Noone caps or decaps.
    Other amulets just add some damage and pay severly with sustain. Avatar and sage do have advantages in some setups, disadvantages in others. Same goes for earth and air, arcane is a must have.
    So while the other bruisers do have the same sustain, they do have a ton more damage. If you want to reduce that - fine, I am in! But if they don't, they should adjust weaver's damage. Again, just a bit, not too much. Some ranges, some cover conditions would work wonders.
    (Sidenote: A warrior kills an ele in 2-3 seconds when he does not move or anything. A S/D weaver takes a lot more, like 10 seconds depending on the current attunements.)

    However, how can you still complain about FA? That has been nerfed into oblivion. It was cheap, I didn't like the playstyle either. But it was easy prey for mesmers and thieves, so it was never OP at all - current rev meta would just let it explode.

    Tempest? Severly lackluster. Good and strong healing, some auras might need a rework (fire aura... srsly), nice projectile hate. But one single spellbreaker or holosmith just close to it would shut down any overload. It lacks stability, it lacks aegis, it is too easily interrupted and shut down.

    Staff is a meme. I saw one the other day, he did a great job and bursted some people away - in the first fight. Then he got focused and died waaay too quickly. No chance.

    Any other "working" build you have in mind?

    TLDR: S/D needs minor tweaks (or the other bruisers brought down a bit), the other ele builds are currently completely underpowered.

    I wouldn't consider staff ele a working build. Didn't meet a tempest yet (EU) means i wasn't talking about that either. The instant range burst is just a broken mechanic and should get reworked. Sword Weaver is easy to play and survive too well even when played bad. Yes some other of the bruiser are too and they all just should get balanced in a way they can survive very well when played well (means no passive sustain or facetanking and just heal up) and should cut in dmg, some other builds need more cut in dmg than weaver, i agree. But compared to a high risk build they all have still too much dmg for the (passive) sustain they have.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Please don't buff this braindead class. What you want? More facetank ability? More viable randomspam through the attunements? More easy to land range instant dmg? There is not a single working build on Ele need any buff.
    (...)

    Can you elaborate a bit? Do you not want to buff ele but nerf the other classes? Or do you actually think ele is fine compared to spellbreaker, holosmith, condi mirage? How is ele more braindead than those classes?

    I'd be fine with nerfing overall sustain and damage on every class/elite spec. But we all know that is impossible for the intern working on PVP. :wink:

    €: Why was this moved out of the PVP section lol? Asking for buffs is not okay but asking for various nerfs for specific classes is cool?

    Like warrior, soulbeast, engi (to some extent also still condi/hybrid mirage and bunker chrono) and all these other way too much sustain with way too much dmg builds also sword weaver needs nerfs, maybe a bit less than some of the others yes.
    It is ok to have builds can survive well, even outnumbered, it is a role in conquest needs to get filled by someone but surviving should need skill and these surviving builds shouldn't have high dmg in addition. These bruiser builds just have everything (lot of them even high mobility on top of it) and can fill almost every role with the same build.

    Ele surely does not have too much damage if you refer to mender S/D. Whenever I fight one, i simply go for some easy defensive rotation and can save my CDs for +1. It is boring, but easy to deal with. Noone caps or decaps.
    Other amulets just add some damage and pay severly with sustain. Avatar and sage do have advantages in some setups, disadvantages in others. Same goes for earth and air, arcane is a must have.
    So while the other bruisers do have the same sustain, they do have a ton more damage. If you want to reduce that - fine, I am in! But if they don't, they should adjust weaver's damage. Again, just a bit, not too much. Some ranges, some cover conditions would work wonders.
    (Sidenote: A warrior kills an ele in 2-3 seconds when he does not move or anything. A S/D weaver takes a lot more, like 10 seconds depending on the current attunements.)

    However, how can you still complain about FA? That has been nerfed into oblivion. It was cheap, I didn't like the playstyle either. But it was easy prey for mesmers and thieves, so it was never OP at all - current rev meta would just let it explode.

    Tempest? Severly lackluster. Good and strong healing, some auras might need a rework (fire aura... srsly), nice projectile hate. But one single spellbreaker or holosmith just close to it would shut down any overload. It lacks stability, it lacks aegis, it is too easily interrupted and shut down.

    Staff is a meme. I saw one the other day, he did a great job and bursted some people away - in the first fight. Then he got focused and died waaay too quickly. No chance.

    Any other "working" build you have in mind?

    TLDR: S/D needs minor tweaks (or the other bruisers brought down a bit), the other ele builds are currently completely underpowered.

    I wouldn't consider staff ele a working build. Didn't meet a tempest yet (EU) means i wasn't talking about that either. The instant range burst is just a broken mechanic and should get reworked. Sword Weaver is easy to play and survive too well even when played bad. Yes some other of the bruiser are too and they all just should get balanced in a way they either can survive very well when played well (means no passive sutain or facetanking and just heal up) and should cut in dmg, some other builds need more cut in dmg than weaver, i agree. But compared to a high risk build they all have still too much dmg for the (passive) sustain they have.

    Yepp, I agree about FA. It was not fun to play with or against. Didn't like it - but a rework would have been way better than just a flat damage nerf.

    And S/D weaver is a lot more difficult to play than spellbreaker and holo - hate mirage too much to have played it. Often they just keep spamming the same good old off-CD rotation - something weaver cannot do. Weaver has to decide which attunement to pick. When in fire or air, burst him. When in water or earth, do not. They are locked to attunements and you can see when he does damage and when he tries to sustain. I do not mind that though, that's what keeps me playing mostly ele, it is about decisions and complexity (not spamming Full counter off-CD...).

    But I guess we can agree on "bringing weaver on par with spellbreaker and other meta bruisers". Be it a small nerf to them or a small buff to weaver. :smile:

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And that's why balance talks from players are not taken seriously 90% of the times ( despite the self-fed delusions of many). Sword weaver is the first and only ele build that has access to evades on skills to survive instead than be forced into full facetank healburst or die...and that doesn't sit well with the many folks .

    These same folks play professions who had access to evade on skills since day 1 , more trait synergy and they've never been hold down by a restrictive choice of amulets..or the play professions who have access to natural tankiness that requires no stat investment like power reaper with shroud, which at all levels can only be fought now by a sword weaver ( and let's see who play what here...smirk)

    Now those same folks are targeting the evade frame of sword weaver as it's the only thing left on ele that has a chance 1v1 vs the other faceroll kitten the game has which is everything in this game from stealth to deathshroud, the same folks are implying the evade frame of sword weaver is faceroll....while the distortion into stealth into blur..it's skilled or the GS/shield block/passive heal and +300 passive toughness of warrior...that skilled too...what about the 25 perma might boon rev build with staff/sword? engi CC spam and double elixir s +stealth rotation?....and what about power reaper going into reaper shroud than 5 -chill elite and spin like a monkey? and what about.........yeah too kitten much to list

    I ask myself now how is evade frame of a sword weaver less "skilled" than evade frame on everybody else....and ele has no access to stealth on demand...which is funny enough considered skilled by the gw2 playerbase.

    90% of gw2 playerbase is highly biased, some even more than others and deep down they all want their profession to prevail everywhere while neutering the rest, this goes for all MMO out there and reason why devs generally ignore feebacks at large

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    And that's why balance talks from players are not taken seriously 90% of the times ( despite the self-fed delusions of many). Sword weaver is the first and only ele build that has access to evades on skills to survive instead than be forced into full facetank healburst or die...and that doesn't sit well with the many folks .

    These same folks play professions who had access to evade on skills since day 1 , more trait synergy and they've never been hold down by a restrictive choice of amulets..or the play professions who have access to natural tankiness that requires no stat investment like power reaper with shroud, which at all levels can only be fought now by a sword weaver ( and let's see who play what here...smirk)

    Now those same folks are targeting the evade frame of sword weaver as it's the only thing left on ele that has a chance 1v1 vs the other faceroll kitten the game has which is everything in this game from stealth to deathshroud, the same folks are implying the evade frame of sword weaver is faceroll....while the distortion into stealth into blur..it's skilled or the GS/shield block/passive heal and +300 passive toughness of warrior...that skilled too...what about the 25 perma might boon rev build with staff/sword? engi CC spam and double elixir s +stealth rotation?....and what about power reaper going into reaper shroud than 5 -chill elite and spin like a monkey? and what about.........yeah too kitten much to list

    I ask myself now how is evade frame of a sword weaver less "skilled" than evade frame on everybody else....and ele has no access to stealth on demand...which is funny enough considered skilled by the gw2 playerbase.

    90% of gw2 playerbase is highly biased, some even more than others and deep down they all want their profession to prevail everywhere while neutering the rest, this goes for all MMO out there and reason why devs generally ignore feebacks at large

    That why you got to find ways to talk about it in gen forms or wvw forms or spvp forms. Dev. not posted here in about a year + so i am not sure if they are even reading this.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    Why was this thread moved from the PvP sub-forum? Is PvP class discussion not allowed there anymore? Are nerf mirage threads going to be moved into the mesmer sub-forum now?

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    And that's why balance talks from players are not taken seriously 90% of the times ( despite the self-fed delusions of many). Sword weaver is the first and only ele build that has access to evades on skills to survive instead than be forced into full facetank healburst or die...and that doesn't sit well with the many folks .

    These same folks play professions who had access to evade on skills since day 1 , more trait synergy and they've never been hold down by a restrictive choice of amulets..or the play professions who have access to natural tankiness that requires no stat investment like power reaper with shroud, which at all levels can only be fought now by a sword weaver ( and let's see who play what here...smirk)

    Now those same folks are targeting the evade frame of sword weaver as it's the only thing left on ele that has a chance 1v1 vs the other faceroll kitten the game has which is everything in this game from stealth to deathshroud, the same folks are implying the evade frame of sword weaver is faceroll....while the distortion into stealth into blur..it's skilled or the GS/shield block/passive heal and +300 passive toughness of warrior...that skilled too...what about the 25 perma might boon rev build with staff/sword? engi CC spam and double elixir s +stealth rotation?....and what about power reaper going into reaper shroud than 5 -chill elite and spin like a monkey? and what about.........yeah too kitten much to list

    I ask myself now how is evade frame of a sword weaver less "skilled" than evade frame on everybody else....and ele has no access to stealth on demand...which is funny enough considered skilled by the gw2 playerbase.

    90% of gw2 playerbase is highly biased, some even more than others and deep down they all want their profession to prevail everywhere while neutering the rest, this goes for all MMO out there and reason why devs generally ignore feebacks at large

    That why you got to find ways to talk about it in gen forms or wvw forms or spvp forms. Dev. not posted here in about a year + so i am not sure if they are even reading this.

    Really there is no hope for this class...no devs plays or acknowledge it...then you have a community with elements who will complain about the only thing left to do on an ele, use two evades skill on a 130 range weapon with no chance to kill anything with a functional human brain and the agility of a rooster .

    I will tell you the truth: the only reason why I am still vouching for ele is because is my first character and spent 10k+ hrs on it and if the game would allow a class change...I wouldn't be here wasting my time because in truth that's all we're doing here....wasting our time, nothing will ever change on this class, is UP af and any sane person would just use anything else

    I dunno why you guys still bother with this trash of a design, i gave my true reason: there is no way to transfer those 10k + hours on another class plus all the achievements, story etc and haven't got the time to do the same on another class now

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Javelin.7960Javelin.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. To a solo PvE player, an Elementalist who deals roughly equal damage to other classes is NOT balanced. In that game mode, a balanced Elementalist deals substantially more damage than any other class, because it suffers from so many deficits in other areas. That same character that is balanced in PvE, may be UP in PvP because of player mobility, and OP in a Raid because it's only job is to deal maximum damage.

    On account of their inherent squishy-ness, the cloth classes are always going to be most susceptible to the nerf/buff dynamic. Warriors have survivability built in to their base stats, an Ele has to spend utility slots to get anywhere close to the same level, leaving them with less utility slots to focus on other things.

    The core problem, and one that was made worse with the introduction of Weaver, is the series of compromises that were necessary to turn a squishy Elementalist into a front-line fighter. Weaver made it worse, but it's been an issue since the beginning. In an effort to keep WvW from becoming a boring and static exchange of meteor and arrow salvos, the fundamental mechanic of these typically ranged classes had to be altered. Necessary for the health of WvW, but the rest of the game has paid the price.

  • Quasar.1756Quasar.1756 Member ✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. To a solo PvE player, an Elementalist who deals roughly equal damage to other classes is NOT balanced. In that game mode, a balanced Elementalist deals substantially more damage than any other class, because it suffers from so many deficits in other areas. That same character that is balanced in PvE, may be UP in PvP because of player mobility, and OP in a Raid because it's only job is to deal maximum damage.

    On account of their inherent squishy-ness, the cloth classes are always going to be most susceptible to the nerf/buff dynamic. Warriors have survivability built in to their base stats, an Ele has to spend utility slots to get anywhere close to the same level, leaving them with less utility slots to focus on other things.

    The core problem, and one that was made worse with the introduction of Weaver, is the series of compromises that were necessary to turn a squishy Elementalist into a front-line fighter. Weaver made it worse, but it's been an issue since the beginning. In an effort to keep WvW from becoming a boring and static exchange of meteor and arrow salvos, the fundamental mechanic of these typically ranged classes had to be altered. Necessary for the health of WvW, but the rest of the game has paid the price.

    Based off your statement, what would be the solution?

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

  • Javelin.7960Javelin.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    Short of completely splitting the PvP/PvE/WvW game modes, along with a total rework of every class in the game, there isn't one. This problem was built in to the core of gameplay. It's not going to be fixed. Enjoy the game for what it is, or don't. As long as Elementalists are a front line melee class, they are going to need ridiculous levels of sustain to keep from dying every 30 seconds, and as long as that's the case, the whole class will be balanced around it.

  • Poelala.2830Poelala.2830 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Why was this thread moved from the PvP sub-forum? Is PvP class discussion not allowed there anymore? Are nerf mirage threads going to be moved into the mesmer sub-forum now?

    When I got the notification that this post was moved, I wanted to ask Arena-Net why they decided to do this. It is simply just another balance discussion. But I knew they'd never respond, seeing as when I emailed them that I had no access to my account it took them 2 weeks to respond. So when it comes to something much less important like a discussion on the overall health of the game, Arena-Net definitely will not care. I find it quite odd that a discussion that was a soulbeast hate thread under the guise of a pretend bug complaint with Worldly Impact was allowed to get 12k views yet this was moved at a measly 1.5k. What exactly is Arena-Net's plan with the functionality of their PvP sub-forum? To talk about PvP? Apparently not. They'd prefer if we all made posts saying "show off your ele 8)" or "I need an ele build for raids please help :'(" so they can continue to sweep under the rug the failure that is sPvP in 2018.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Poelala.2830 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Why was this thread moved from the PvP sub-forum? Is PvP class discussion not allowed there anymore? Are nerf mirage threads going to be moved into the mesmer sub-forum now?

    When I got the notification that this post was moved, I wanted to ask Arena-Net why they decided to do this. It is simply just another balance discussion. But I knew they'd never respond, seeing as when I emailed them that I had no access to my account it took them 2 weeks to respond. So when it comes to something much less important like a discussion on the overall health of the game, Arena-Net definitely will not care. I find it quite odd that a discussion that was a soulbeast hate thread under the guise of a pretend bug complaint with Worldly Impact was allowed to get 12k views yet this was moved at a measly 1.5k. What exactly is Arena-Net's plan with the functionality of their PvP sub-forum? To talk about PvP? Apparently not. They'd prefer if we all made posts saying "show off your ele 8)" or "I need an ele build for raids please help :'(" so they can continue to sweep under the rug the failure that is sPvP in 2018.

    Wow. That is ridiculous. :cry:

    They did it, so no thread about stupid ele blocks their beautiful vision on the PVP forum and they have more time to answer to the important thr-... oh wait!

  • Poelala.2830Poelala.2830 Member ✭✭✭

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. To a solo PvE player, an Elementalist who deals roughly equal damage to other classes is NOT balanced. In that game mode, a balanced Elementalist deals substantially more damage than any other class, because it suffers from so many deficits in other areas. That same character that is balanced in PvE, may be UP in PvP because of player mobility, and OP in a Raid because it's only job is to deal maximum damage.

    On account of their inherent squishy-ness, the cloth classes are always going to be most susceptible to the nerf/buff dynamic. Warriors have survivability built in to their base stats, an Ele has to spend utility slots to get anywhere close to the same level, leaving them with less utility slots to focus on other things.

    The core problem, and one that was made worse with the introduction of Weaver, is the series of compromises that were necessary to turn a squishy Elementalist into a front-line fighter. Weaver made it worse, but it's been an issue since the beginning. In an effort to keep WvW from becoming a boring and static exchange of meteor and arrow salvos, the fundamental mechanic of these typically ranged classes had to be altered. Necessary for the health of WvW, but the rest of the game has paid the price.

    You are aware that in most of gw1 most classes were considered balanced due to the vast array of builds they had an a variety of roles and map types that allowed players to fit into more than one strangled role, right?

  • Javelin.7960Javelin.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

  • Javelin.7960Javelin.7960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    @Poelala.2830 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes. To a solo PvE player, an Elementalist who deals roughly equal damage to other classes is NOT balanced. In that game mode, a balanced Elementalist deals substantially more damage than any other class, because it suffers from so many deficits in other areas. That same character that is balanced in PvE, may be UP in PvP because of player mobility, and OP in a Raid because it's only job is to deal maximum damage.

    On account of their inherent squishy-ness, the cloth classes are always going to be most susceptible to the nerf/buff dynamic. Warriors have survivability built in to their base stats, an Ele has to spend utility slots to get anywhere close to the same level, leaving them with less utility slots to focus on other things.

    The core problem, and one that was made worse with the introduction of Weaver, is the series of compromises that were necessary to turn a squishy Elementalist into a front-line fighter. Weaver made it worse, but it's been an issue since the beginning. In an effort to keep WvW from becoming a boring and static exchange of meteor and arrow salvos, the fundamental mechanic of these typically ranged classes had to be altered. Necessary for the health of WvW, but the rest of the game has paid the price.

    You are aware that in most of gw1 most classes were considered balanced due to the vast array of builds they had an a variety of roles and map types that allowed players to fit into more than one strangled role, right?

    I agree that most classes were considered balanced in GW1, I disagree that the reason you stated is why. GW1 was a trinity game at it's core, you had your heals, your tanks, and your DPS. That dynamic makes it easier to balance everything, because you aren't trying to balance a Monk's maximum DPS against an Elementalist. Yes, there were edge case builds that broke the mold, and I'd argue they were what made GW1 so great. I always enjoyed soloing Aataxes in the UW as a Geomancer. There were like two places in the whole game that build was useful, everywhere else it got facerolled by interrupts. It wasn't really relevant to the overall Meta, but it was fun.

    I think balance was lost in GW2 not because of the poor build diversity, though that was unfortunate for other reasons. It was abandonment of the trinity concept that caused all of this. If everyone is jack of all trades, and everyone has the same number of skills available at any given time, and everyone has both melee and ranged weapons available, if all that stuff is roughly equalized, then the guy in plate armor with a huge health pool wins. So you have to compensate for that, and certain decisions get made to do so, iterate that 1000x, and here we are, with Elementalist elite specs designed at their core around the idea of a dude in a robe going toe to toe with plate armor guy.

    I can still enjoy playing GW2, and do so frequently. I just have to enjoy it for what it is, not wish it was something else.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

    But that's not really the playerbase fault is it?
    People bought the game to play an elementalist like in GW1, talking for general lines now mind you and during marketing stage in 2012, most of the GW1 playerbase showed concern about the design of the ele and how the devs could have ever hoped to balance it...@Isaiah Cartwright stated it would have be not problem..6 years from then and here we are..they were no more wise than players in the end.

    They had the time, they had the feedback and they had the devs to fix all issues..but they didn't out of sheer arrogance :" I am the dev and know better"...in the end that doesn't seem to be the case

    They changed the profession entirely since launch, nerfed multiple times and nothing get done...but ofc the clear message here is take it or leave, we don't care, we got your money thx for your patronage

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Javelin.7960Javelin.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

    But that's not really the playerbase fault is it?
    People bought the game to play an elementalist like in GW1, talking for general lines now mind you and during marketing stage in 2012, most of the GW1 playerbase showed concern about the design of the ele and how the devs could have ever hoped to balance it...@Isaiah Cartwright stated it would have be not problem..6 years from then and here we are..they were no more wise than players in the end.

    They had the time, they had the feedback and they had the devs to fix all issues..but they didn't out of sheer arrogance :" I am the dev and know better"...in the end that doesn't seem to be the case

    They changed the profession entirely since launch, nerfed multiple times and nothing get done...but ofc the clear message here is take it or leave, we don't care, we got your money thx for your patronage

    No, it's not the players fault, but I don't know if the concept of fault is useful here, either. They made a design decision, an effort to break the mold of every other MMO. I think the existence of the Druid elite spec is proof that at some level, they know that effort failed. The game was built around that design decision, though, and fixing it 'right' is probably an undertaking beyond ANets willingness to invest in. They've got a completed, if flawed, product, and they want to make money with it, so bandaids are the order of the day. So you have to either enjoy it for what it is, or not.

  • Quasar.1756Quasar.1756 Member ✭✭

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

    Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why?

  • Javelin.7960Javelin.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

    Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why?

    What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

    Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why?

    What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation.

    And here another thing..why in hell give melee weapons to cloth class when you were not planning to give them additional sustain built in its core?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Quasar.1756Quasar.1756 Member ✭✭

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

    Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why?

    What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation.

    Ok, maybe I should of said, 'Make weaver a tank elite skill'.

    Mesmer is a cloth armor class but their Chrono elite skill was able to be 'tanky'

    I mean, earth attunement to ele tank is far from impossible??????

  • Javelin.7960Javelin.7960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2018

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

    Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why?

    What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation.

    Ok, maybe I should of said, 'Make weaver a tank elite skill'.

    Mesmer is a cloth armor class but their Chrono elite skill was able to be 'tanky'

    I mean, earth attunement to ele tank is far from impossible??????

    I think it would have made more sense from a core gameplay mechanic perspective, yes. Weaver being a Warrior/Guardian elite spec at least addresses the issue of Elementalists being fundamentally unsuited for melee combat...but this is all hypothetical, the Weaver wouldn't be a Weaver if it weren't an Elementalist, it would be something else.

    Anything can be accomplished by changing what a given set of skills do, but you're still left with the reality that the Elementalist who is face tanking, has to rely on skills to do so, more than any other class. With a finite number of skills available at any given moment, that means the Ele is expending some of his finite resources simply to stay on par with a class that is more naturally suited, via health pool and armor, to be in that position. By extension, that means the Ele has less resources available to do other stuff. Attunement switching is used as a way to combat this problem, but what ends up happening as a result is the creation of complex skill interactions which have to be interwoven with each other, and are a major challenge to balance against a single weaponset, let alone all available options.

    None of which would have been necessary, if Elementalist had been allowed to remain a ranged class, with some unique edge-case builds that moved it in to melee. But that's not what happened, and it's not going to change.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    I miss my staff weaver damage :(

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • ZeteCommander.4937ZeteCommander.4937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2018

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:
    S/D weaver is impossible to kill the target with many condition remove

    Kill it with direct damage. Condis take way too long indeed if it works at all.

    The problem is not survivability though. It is the lack of damage and group support. In team fights, you can just ignore the weaver and kill off his team. On the side nodes, just sustain and save your cooldowns, he will never drive you off point (yes, depends on skill level and specific build, but that's the general advise).

    There are some issues with (reliable) condi cleanse only on water and prot only by arcane (for weaver at least, since almost zero auras)... but I don't even expect them to rework the whole class. Just fix S/D a bit. And make tempest, FA and stuff a bit more viable. For a start. Ele community just didn't get the latest nerfs...

    direct damage is the most effective,The problem is that the main skills are all condition damage.Obviously, s/d weaver has’t skills to make direct damage

  • BlackBeard.2873BlackBeard.2873 Member ✭✭✭

    I am still just bitter that they nerfed CORE FA so far into the dumpster that it doesn't even exist anymore, just because they let air-swaps double-proc on weaver.

    They could have but a small ICD on air-swap procs, or decreased the CD of phoenix, or increased the auto-attack sustained damage, or just about anything, but they butchered a B-tier build just to kill another B-tier build because it had very high burst, yet they do nothing about current builds that can 1-shot people FROM stealth, and do far more damage than ele ever did.

    Honestly, I don't care if they nerfed plasma beam into the ground, or removed weaver, or did just about anything else. In their zeal to "fix" fresh air weaver's 1-shot capability, they made both fresh weaver and core fresh air unplayable. FA core was never really a 1-shot build, and was severely disadvantaged vs. other high damage builds. You could only realistically 1-shot someone if they ate: Dragon's tooth + phoenix x3 + lightning flash + air swap + arcane blast...and if you eat all that, esp Dragon's tooth, you deserve to be 1-shot. It always played more like a highly-mobile bruiser of types, that got some good opening damage, but then had to kite and whittle you down with air-swaps and autos or else gtfo. It was such a fun build, but...ANet has no idea how to balance the class.

  • Quasar.1756Quasar.1756 Member ✭✭

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

    Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why?

    What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation.

    Ok, maybe I should of said, 'Make weaver a tank elite skill'.

    Mesmer is a cloth armor class but their Chrono elite skill was able to be 'tanky'

    I mean, earth attunement to ele tank is far from impossible??????

    I think it would have made more sense from a core gameplay mechanic perspective, yes. Weaver being a Warrior/Guardian elite spec at least addresses the issue of Elementalists being fundamentally unsuited for melee combat...but this is all hypothetical, the Weaver wouldn't be a Weaver if it weren't an Elementalist, it would be something else.

    Anything can be accomplished by changing what a given set of skills do, but you're still left with the reality that the Elementalist who is face tanking, has to rely on skills to do so, more than any other class. With a finite number of skills available at any given moment, that means the Ele is expending some of his finite resources simply to stay on par with a class that is more naturally suited, via health pool and armor, to be in that position. By extension, that means the Ele has less resources available to do other stuff. Attunement switching is used as a way to combat this problem, but what ends up happening as a result is the creation of complex skill interactions which have to be interwoven with each other, and are a major challenge to balance against a single weaponset, let alone all available options.

    None of which would have been necessary, if Elementalist had been allowed to remain a ranged class, with some unique edge-case builds that moved it in to melee. But that's not what happened, and it's not going to change.

    Was giving thought to your post.

    Do you think if GW2 introduces a new trait line only exclusively for PvP, they can fix the old traits and balance everything out again?

    What are your thoughts on that blueprint plan?

  • Theros.1390Theros.1390 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2018

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Sword Weaver is easy to play and survive too well even when played bad.

    Good survivability doesn't mean easy to play.

    Sword weaver is a close range fighter, relies a LOT on Protection, and if he wants to recover, he has to go for Riptide and then, explode it with earthen vortex/earthquake, making Weaver movements very predictable. Riptide is still a "powerfull" skill (and dodge, sure), but it's healing has been decrease by 66% a few months ago, just in case.

    And also : the sword still tickles and do an average of 2-3k for the biggest hits. Dagger do more, with 4-5k.

    To me, Sword weaver is more balanced than ever. Some other class still need a damages normalization. (aka S/S rev, Souldbeast (worldy Impact), Warri : (Full counter, I often do 10k+ on foes who arent under Protection, and Rampage, overall. I run war, and I think this "onepush I win button" just shouldnt exist) Deadeye (13k+ by double tap, 17k+ on DJ.)

  • Javelin.7960Javelin.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Javelin.7960 said:
    It is impossible to balance nine classes, each with two elite specs, across four different game modes (Normal PvE, Raid, WvW, PvP), because in each of those modes, the concept of what balance means, changes.

    There is this thing called skill split which the balance team clearly didn't bother to do on some changes such as lava font. It's also suspicious how, after the recent balance patch, you get classes such as mesmer, thief, guard, and engi that get multiple builds that are not only all equally viable and close to optimal, but also included specs not only from PoF, and some of them are even allowed this varied choice in modes other than PvE, while ele is pretty much stuck with sword weaver now everywhere with the occasional staff weaver in very specific cases. It's as if they like to spend more time on certain classes than others.

    Right, and every time they split skills, the workload for balance updates increases. It's a no-win situation, for the developers.

    JMO, they've given up on trying to balance Elementalist generally. The class mechanic is too complex, mainly due to conjures; every little tweak ends up having some unforseen consequence. It's why we're stuck with an Elementalist who is pretending to be a Warrior (Weaver). Scoped down to short range, melee combat, the job of trying to make it work within the context of the rest of the game, is manageable.

    Would making the weaver with a sword a TANK fix that issue and if you disagree, why?

    What does that mean? How do you do that? As long as the Weaver is an Ele elite, it's going to be a low health pool, cloth armor class. One way or another, such a class will need insanely high sustain to survive in a melee situation.

    Ok, maybe I should of said, 'Make weaver a tank elite skill'.

    Mesmer is a cloth armor class but their Chrono elite skill was able to be 'tanky'

    I mean, earth attunement to ele tank is far from impossible??????

    I think it would have made more sense from a core gameplay mechanic perspective, yes. Weaver being a Warrior/Guardian elite spec at least addresses the issue of Elementalists being fundamentally unsuited for melee combat...but this is all hypothetical, the Weaver wouldn't be a Weaver if it weren't an Elementalist, it would be something else.

    Anything can be accomplished by changing what a given set of skills do, but you're still left with the reality that the Elementalist who is face tanking, has to rely on skills to do so, more than any other class. With a finite number of skills available at any given moment, that means the Ele is expending some of his finite resources simply to stay on par with a class that is more naturally suited, via health pool and armor, to be in that position. By extension, that means the Ele has less resources available to do other stuff. Attunement switching is used as a way to combat this problem, but what ends up happening as a result is the creation of complex skill interactions which have to be interwoven with each other, and are a major challenge to balance against a single weaponset, let alone all available options.

    None of which would have been necessary, if Elementalist had been allowed to remain a ranged class, with some unique edge-case builds that moved it in to melee. But that's not what happened, and it's not going to change.

    Was giving thought to your post.

    Do you think if GW2 introduces a new trait line only exclusively for PvP, they can fix the old traits and balance everything out again?

    What are your thoughts on that blueprint plan?

    That would be one way to fix it, sure, but we're back to skills/traits being used to overcome a toughness deficit that is normally dealt with by simple distance. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, the impossible compromise all of us Elementalists have been dealing with forever, is built right in to the class. Normally, in a typical trinity MMO, the DPS spends their time trying to keep their distance, and the Tank spends their time trying to close it. Who is trying to keep their distance in GW2? It's not just an Ele problem, even Rangers are front-line combatants.

    IMO, it's not PvP that's the problem, it's WvW. I enjoy the hell out of WvW, just to be clear; when you're in a good zerg with a good commander, it's epic and fun. But the choices that have been made in an attempt to balance WvW are at the core of why all the other game modes are so difficult to get right, especially for Elementalist.

    Not that I believe there is a remote possibility this will happen, but what I'd like to see them do is break WvW from the normal game. Give it a ground-up redesign, and once that's done, do the same for PvP/PvE, removing all the design compromises that were made to create a WvW environment that didn't suck. Without WvW, the distance damage problem is basically a non-issue; elementalists/rangers/etc can go back to being distance, DPS focused classes, they no longer need stupid high sustain to avoid becoming a smudge in the dirt, and the building blocks of a balance-able situation are restored.

    Just my .02c, I don't believe an Elementalist with <12k HP, and effectively no armor reduction, trading melee strikes with a Warrior who has >19k HP and the highest latent armor reduction in the game, can ever be a balanced scenario, given that they both have an equal number of skills and major/minor traits. At best, an illusion of balance is created, where the Elementalist has his skills and traitlines inflated in power to offset the imbalance, but now the Ele is OP against other cloth classes, and the cycle begins. This is basically the point Elementalist has been stuck spinning endlessly around since the game went live. Distance was the answer, it's always been the answer, but WvW required them to look for another one, and it didn't work.

  • @Im Too Godlike.5629 said:
    Top 20 NA right now playing the oldschool heal tempest with minor tweaks to adjust for the current meta.....
    tl:dr get better

    Can i have your build?

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sad things is oldschool healing tempest only works vs non meta groups and they just dont happen any more its all about burst dmg and only barrier going to stop that or aigese. You could heal 1 billion per sec and it means nothing if ppl are getting burst down in a scorge rev bomb. (The real problem is the scorge is both the counter and reason for the meta atm.) Maybe if tempest had barrier or the ability to give out aiges but only weaver gets self barrier there no real support barrier on ele at all the only real support tool in gw2 now.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    Riptide was too OP, but now the rotation with earth 2-4-5 is so predictable riptide is useless for Heal as you won't combo the field without a cc in your face or a good pressure, it's no more just a simple evade with a cleansing wiht trait.
    In general the "gameplay" around combos is completely outdated with ele, each class also earn combo finishers but mostly powercreep and 10+ mights etc wiht minor traits or single skill.
    The nerfs on #3 air/water and water/earth completely broke the skills; projectiles was already too slow, too short, ... now you can't touch anyhing if it's not in a small corner.
    Dual skills are not that bad, but a simple sidestep of the target can avoide that skill. Really annoying when it doesn"t triffer because the enemy cross your body. They need better radius or target the ennemie.
    And the 4s stab on stances is a joke.

    So yeah, "easy to play" weaver sword, may be; but what's the cost ? Playing mender as a capholder spamming dodges ?
    Sword is trash, sustain is trash in general; without Water spec, without Arcane spec, without healing power/vitality/toughness.
    Every other melee class/build as more range, more sustain without investing that much in healing/vitality. Just compare Holo and Weaver sword, or SB and weaver; tell me more how easy it is to play weaver, tell me how to kill Holo or SB, even Reaper, Mesmer, Soulbeast ... without a long and painful fight ?

  • Henrik.7560Henrik.7560 Member ✭✭✭

    August 7 patch, still ded

    [eA] Sakura | Kaineng

  • Ele is not meta in raids? not powerful in pve? hm....

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭

    People have old habits of elem. But "best benchmark dps on large hitbox "when half the DPS come from FGS, now remove FGS; well done, Revenant can do same, thief can do same, guard can do same ... Still a good spot, not the only one in the spot.
    That's the problem, they create a DPS spec for an already main DPS class in Pve after they already nerf tempest, and ... "Oh sh**t, too OP, let's nerf staff, core elem etc".
    And one mode, a group content, where you get carried because you have nothing to offer but DPS or to survive, versus pvp - wvw...

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭

    You have to keep in mind, they seem to like to balance the classes around raiding which is the absolute worst possible thing they can do as only a fraction of a fraction of the player base participates in it. It's not just ele but every other class seems to either be nerfed or buffed based on their capability against raid boss HP sponges. They should really return all the classes to their original status at PoF launch and then continue to buff (instead of nerf), based on how each class performs against each other.

    Take meteor as a classic example; originally it did good dps to raid bosses but then they nerfed it. But before they nerfed it they broke it making it a bane to deal with in WvW. Then they reduced it to the damage they felt was appropriate making it like a nice hot summers night shower to stand in. But why was it ever touched in the first place? Because it did a lot of damage to raid bosses.

  • Why even nerf it for raiding though? Ele rotatations are as braindead as other classes and they only bring DPS. No one wants ele now because they are harder to play for equal or less damage. That’s not balance that’s nerfing too hard. Other classes can put up huge numbers while providing utility but ele kust has damage and it’s not even the best. Sad.

  • Poelala.2830Poelala.2830 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bloadsoaked.6792 said:
    Ele is not meta in raids? not powerful in pve? hm....

    Your confusion is very understandable because Arenanet decided to move this from the PvP forum to the Elementalist forum. The context of this post is PvP.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Poelala.2830 said:

    @Bloadsoaked.6792 said:
    Ele is not meta in raids? not powerful in pve? hm....

    Your confusion is very understandable because Arenanet decided to move this from the PvP forum to the Elementalist forum. The context of this post is PvP.

    Yeah, Ben reads some of the posts in the PVP subforum. But noone ever looks here, so... this makes it easier to ignore all the suggestions and discussions (even though, I admit, flavored with a lot of anger).

    The mods do show some very bad behaviour the last weeks... this was only one example.

    Anyway, on topic: The balance patch will be in a couple of weeks, when the new season started. Since they remove all motivation to try hard in ranked though, for me it will be time to troll. Since that might not even work out with staff zerker, I might have to switch to something else...

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