Thief needs a fix !

I've been playing Thief since beta and no decent changes are being made.

Infiltrator's Arrow:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow

If you try to get away and the terrain is bugged, you do not move and you lose 6 initiative points. (This has happened to me more than a lot.)

Backstabhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab

With players moving, a lot of clutter, minions, clones, turrets, etc,... it can be very hard to land a decent backstab (not a lot of stealth time and revealed after stealth), if you miss it you get a cooldown and you lost a lot of your burst.

Revealedhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

If you miss your timing due to lag or a mistake you lose your initiative.

GeneralI feel like Thief is not what it used to be, even if you go full glass cannon you still have trouble bursting someone. The profession is not unplayable but it feels like it's lacking compared to other professions.A lot of mechanics are working against the player (initiative, revealed,...).Last but not least and this counts for all professions i'd like to have more decent options ( I don't like meta ) every skill and trait should be viable, not just gap fillers. Yes, you are able to build the way you want to and be creative, but most of the time the meta builds win over anything.

TLDR; I'd like to play the Thief but most of thieves mechanics work against the player instead of the enemy.

The Infiltrator's Arrow initiative problem needs to be fixed. The Stealth Attacks really need to lose the cooldown.

Not sure what you mean by Revealed losing initiative, though.

Either of the following options would tremendously help a Thief...a. Remove weapon-swap cooldownb. Give each weapon set its own initiative pool

Outside of that, let's fix Scorpion Wire to be dependable, and make Shadow Trap a true teleport.

They tried with Infiltrator's Arrow...

March 16, 2015
This skill will no longer activate if a valid path to the target point cannot be found.But yeah, it still bugs on a regular basis.

The ICD on Stealth Attacks is indeed still a nuisance. But I do agree that it was needed at the time.However, there should be some compensation. Either Stealth Attacks got to be more rewarding (which I think is a bad idea, as it'd add more powercreep), or we should get like a flip-over skill for the duration that we "missed" so that we could at least simply pick back up with AA's. You could still weapon-stow to cancel that AA if you want to go for another Stealth Attack, but it's really un-intuitive to be forced to spend Initiative when you got to keep up pressure...

No idea what you mean about Revealed though...

As to meta builds winning over other builds... Well yeah, durr. That's why they're considered "Meta"... There will always be something that's considered "meta". You can try to break it, but then the build that broke it will become the new Meta, that's just how it goes.

Thief could do with some bug fixes and quality of life things though... But overall, I don't think we've got anything to complain about.

Problem is... everything here would be a Buff to Thief.And you know what will happen when Thief gets any kind of buff.People will scream for nerfs.

So IF this would happen, thief will be nerfed somewhere else. 100% sure.

@"Skugga.5298" said:

Backstabhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab

With players moving, a lot of clutter, minions, clones, turrets, etc,... it can be very hard to land a decent backstab (not a lot of stealth time and revealed after stealth), if you miss it you get a cooldown and you lost a lot of your burst.

Not my main, but i totally agree with you on this one.Many times i have missed this that could have changed outcome of battle.

@"Vornollo.5182" said:As to meta builds winning over other builds... Well yeah, durr. That's why they're considered "Meta"... There will always be something that's considered "meta". You can try to break it, but then the build that broke it will become the new Meta, that's just how it goes.

:+1:Never really thought if it that way, sure gave me a change of mind :)

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Problem is... everything here would be a Buff to Thief.And you know what will happen when Thief gets any kind of buff.People will scream for nerfs.

So IF this would happen, thief will be nerfed somewhere else. 100% sure.

Thieves will be nerfed even if no one complains. It's happened before.Deadeyes will probably be buffed even when not asked for.

So we may as well at least try to get broken things fixed. And if they buff Thief to Mesmer levels, I'll enjoy it while it lasts! :-D

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Problem is... everything here would be a Buff to Thief.And you know what will happen when Thief gets any kind of buff.People will scream for nerfs.

So IF this would happen, thief will be nerfed somewhere else. 100% sure.

funny how people often see deadeye as not a part of thief, wasnt like that with daredevil..

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:Problem is... everything here would be a Buff to Thief.And you know what will happen when Thief gets any kind of buff.People will scream for nerfs.

So IF this would happen, thief will be nerfed somewhere else. 100% sure.

Exactly, why doesn't DE supposedly count into being Thief? Can someone here give some arguments on the matter why this would be?

I'd guess it's because not having steal is a huge change in terms of playing style, and there's a non-trivial portion of the thief population that doesn't like relying so much on ranged set. On one hand, it actually means anet succeeded wondefully in distinguishing DE. But that just means there are folks that who aren't receptive to it.

@killy.3278 said:I'd guess it's because not having steal is a huge change in terms of playing style, and there's a non-trivial portion of the thief population that doesn't like relying so much on ranged set.But that's the case for many builds on every profession. Seems like in people's mind they just reduce thief to dagger + X.

@killy.3278 said:I'd guess it's because not having steal is a huge change in terms of playing style, and there's a non-trivial portion of the thief population that doesn't like relying so much on ranged set. On one hand, it actually means anet succeeded wondefully in distinguishing DE. But that just means there are folks that who aren't receptive to it.

on every class there are people who do not play certain elite specs but i feel like thieves are the only one that soo strongly try to distance themselves from one of their elite specs. you dont have to play it, you dont even have to like it, but many cant even accept it just being there as a part of their class. it is soo much that when people look at balance and making requests or claims they often do not even think about the effect of it to that part of their class.for example there are quite many people saying that thief is not dealing enough damage in pvp modes, yet deadeye surely does - if deadeye is doing one thing good it is damage (well and stealth), so then when asking for more damage to thief you have to be careful were you put it and rather think about other ways to solve the issue. making it more reliable for example to apply damage with melee weapons as thief. as reliabilty is a reason why deadeye is doing so much damage, its just easier to outrange and deal damage then to evade and deal damage. one is offensive and defensive at the same time the other has to alter it based on what the opponent does.

@Tails.9372 said:

@killy.3278 said:I'd guess it's because not having steal is a huge change in terms of playing style, and there's a non-trivial portion of the thief population that doesn't like relying so much on ranged set.But that's the case for many builds on every profession. Seems like in people's mind they just reduce thief to dagger + X.

Not saying the other pprofessions did t see drastic changes with their elites, but that it's a matter of expectation.

For the vast majority of other profession, they either had a healthy mix of good melee and ranged builds from the getgo, or their engagement ranges hasnt really changed with the elite specs. For thief, it's been d/x and s/x or bust from core through HoT. Yea p/d was a thing but certainly not very popular. Then comes along DE where the most important melee utility is taken away in exchange for a ranged set. Regardless of the strength of DE builds, it forces a playstyle that I'd imagine a lot of thief mains are not used to.

@MUDse.7623 said:its just easier to outrange and deal damage then to evade and deal damageThat heavily depends on what you're fighting against.

@Tails.9372 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:its just easier to outrange and deal damage then to evade and deal damageThat heavily depends on what you're fighting against.

well maybe my wording wasnt as good ill try again:applying damage is easier while you outrange then applying damage while you have to evade.

@MUDse.7623 said:on every class there are people who do not play certain elite specs but i feel like thieves are the only one that soo strongly try to distance themselves from one of their elite specs. you dont have to play it, you dont even have to like it, but many cant even accept it just being there as a part of their class.

It is not that ppl want to distance themselves it is the reason why they do it = Ppl want to play their lets say Core, DD or anything else. But the game slowly but certainly pushes them towards playing Deadeye. Every change to thief that was made was focused on making Deadeye better or more balanced or to improve De playing/playing style. But as you and we all might have seen that has nerfed any other aspect of thief.Deadeye is focused ONLY on stealth and power dmg dealing. And those are aspects of thief that have been enhanced. Anything else was nerfed by these ''buffs''.Ppl are not complaining anymore Deadeye would suck or its playability is bad. Because it isnt. We complain about everything else being weak. Yes lets say power DD is currently 3rd best dps according to benchmarks but that is again only beacuse it uses same things deadeye does power dmg (not stealth in this case yes)only things that corelate with De are strong now. and that is why ppk complain and why we distance from it because it grabbed our class and took it away from us.As i say to people daily in PVP = You are not a Thief, you are a Deadeye.And it wasnt us who separated Thieves and Deadeyes from each other. It was Anet. We simply see the results and we got separated beacuse one side is satisfied with their Benchmark-like results and high power dps and perma stealthAnd the other side who wants to play something else cant play something else beacuse at this point of game it is not viable or it is underperforming. But not because of lack of skill it is because it is naturally weaker.And that is something what should not exist in a good MMO.You said plenty of times and i hated it when you did (something like this dont have time to find specific lines rn) = ''You want to have a good results and yet you pick build that is underperforming and you play it and expect to get good results.''Well as you may find out people dont play class only because they want to achieve good results they also want to enjoy the way they have achieved them. But Anet has took the ways we were able to enjoy achieving results and shoved Deadeye to game buffed it improved it the way it reaches Benchmark like results and now everything is tip top just fine.And this is why there are Thieves and Deadeyes now. I am Thief. And you are Deadeye. And this is what is going to stay like this until we get new expansion or until Anet realizes this as well and they will fix it up.

deadeye being buffed has nothing to do with other thief builds getting nerfed.actually deadeye was just clunky and get more and more fluid thats more or less what they did to it.up until recently you were called out a noob for playing deadeye because it was considered just that bad, now it has its uses in some areas of the game. blaming deadeye now for changes to other thief builds doesnt really make sense.lets take dagger changes. d/d was since the rework of deadeye already the strongest on a deadeye DPS wise. but that rework didnt put DE into meta, noone complained about it etc.then they changed 2 core traits buffing dagger damage by ALOT for all skills and now reduced it a little again on the AA. and people blame DE.there was no buff to DE that caused them to nerf this, it was a buff to core thief.if they nerfed stealth access to core thief now that DE has even more with stolen skills - that would be a reason to blame deadeye. but they didnt.you just like to find a reason for the nerf that is not 'you are doing too good' so you blame deadeye that was at the same time put in line, a perfect scapegoat.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:You said plenty of times and i hated it when you did (something like this dont have time to find specific lines rn) = ''You want to have a good results and yet you pick build that is underperforming and you play it and expect to get good results.''Well as you may find out people dont play class only because they want to achieve good results they also want to enjoy the way they have achieved them. But Anet has took the ways we were able to enjoy achieving results and shoved Deadeye to game buffed it improved it the way it reaches Benchmark like results and now everything is tip top just fine.i am fully aware that people sometimes play with their main focus on having fun with the playstyle. but you can only have 1 main focus. if it is results, you might need to make a compromise with your playstyle, if it is playstyle then you have to make a compromise with your results and accept that they are not your main focus. why are changes to a build your not playing doing anything about your playstyle ? it may change the results against that build, but again if it is playstyle that is important to you, then you have to accept that results may change over the time in an evolving game if you stick to your style. if you instead set your focus for results, you will adapt every change and will have to live with your playstyle changing.horses or just walking were a common way of travelling long distances many years ago, you can still travel by horse noone is stopping you, a plane is just faster.

i am a thief if you like it or not. i just dont care for playstyle, i care for results and am ready to use every playstyle the thief offers to get them.

@MUDse.7623 said:i am fully aware that people sometimes play with their main focus on having fun with the playstyle. but you can only have 1 main focus. if it is results, you might need to make a compromise with your playstyle, if it is playstyle then you have to make a compromise with your results and accept that they are not your main focus. why are changes to a build your not playing doing anything about your playstyle ? it may change the results against that build, but again if it is playstyle that is important to you, then you have to accept that results may change over the time in an evolving game if you stick to your style. if you instead set your focus for results, you will adapt every change and will have to live with your playstyle changing.horses or just walking were a common way of travelling long distances many years ago, you can still travel by horse noone is stopping you, a plane is just faster.

i am a thief if you like it or not. i just dont care for playstyle, i care for results and am ready to use every playstyle the thief offers to get them.

But the main of GAMING is to achieve results with any and all playstyles or ways possible in game and as i said the amount of ways have been reduced. And THAT is why there are now Thieves and DeadeyesThieves = those who play it the way they want and want to achieve as much as possible by that wayDeadeyes = those who dont care about playstyle and just want Benchmark like resultsI said it just like this in my previous posts as well.That is why you are Deadeye and I am ThiefBecause you just go with statistics and i play because i want to have fun with how i play. And both of us should be able to get same results and NO it is not like it is not possible. It is posstible it would just require more qualified or skilled team to do that. And NO again because you are willing and able to adapt yourself to anything Anet drops on you and then you get those great Benchmark like numbers doesnt mean you are the good guy here. It just means you are easily statisfied customer.Thieves and Deadeyes wouldnt have to be divided by anything. The game could allow both sides to gain lets say at least approximately same results but it wont because it is as it is.We are not a good guys and bad guys here just because your side wants results and ours wants to play. We are just playing game where one side will get what they want and it isnt my side. So we rant and we will rant like everyone in other classes or anywhere else.But if we rant please do not hush us down because we dont want to harm your great benchmark like numbers you see we only want to have same or aproximately same results with whatever we play. And if you do hush us down dear Deadeyes you are doing great job for Anet beacuse ppl over time will come to pass with it because nobody answered them and everyone hushed them and that is not right. A Thief has honor and does not throw crap on another Thief. So if you are so much Thieves as you say prove it and stop hushing us.

@Kageseigi.2150 said:The Infiltrator's Arrow initiative problem needs to be fixed. The Stealth Attacks really need to lose the cooldown.

Not sure what you mean by Revealed losing initiative, though.

Either of the following options would tremendously help a Thief...a. Remove weapon-swap cooldownb. Give each weapon set its own initiative pool

Outside of that, let's fix Scorpion Wire to be dependable, and make Shadow Trap a true teleport.

This^ and make the 15 initiatives pool baseline. Then normalize the total cost of all weapon set. As of now, S/P is the most expensive set and its not even universally useful.

now dont assume i dont have fun. i like winning. as you said that is what gaming is about.anet didnt reduce the options. there was for many players just the options core or DD, now deadeye can compete so you got 3 viable options instead of 2.both playertypes get what they want, you just demand both of it.what you dont understand is that you can even completely destroy the deadeye playstyle, it doesnt matter to me. i am not tied to that playstyle. i enjoy thief in all its aspects. if you stick to splitting it to thieves and deadeyes, then i belong to both groups. you are the one limited to one playstyle that has now an issue as it is not perfoming as you wish. you are the one blaming deadeyes for your own performance. i merely pointed out that THIEF as such is not in a that bad position and if you want to achieve the best results you have to use everything that is given to you, that is simply a fact not a critizism about your playstyle. i wouldnt mind your preffered playstyle to achieve the same results or even better, but i want you to keep your expectations no matter the state of your build realistically.for example cause it is also discussed atm in another thread, core d/d power. this setup lacks defensive tools aswell as means to apply its damge, for it to perform well it would need more defensive tools and means to apply its damage. anet could provide it yet that would change the style of it completely - would it then still please the one currently not satisfied with the results of it? or better example deadeye. it did perform according to many poorly when released. but still people like me played it either because of style or because i used it in a very niche way. then they reworked it, giving us better tools to handle some situations. awesome we are no longer that bad. now did you read the reactions to the deadeye changes about the 'feel' that is lost now ? that were players who did like the style of old deadeye, but we got completely stripped of the style just to get some tools. so if anet provides d/d core thief with the tools - will it still feel the same?

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:i am fully aware that people sometimes play with their main focus on having fun with the playstyle. but you can only have 1 main focus. if it is results, you might need to make a compromise with your playstyle, if it is playstyle then you have to make a compromise with your results and accept that they are not your main focus. why are changes to a build your not playing doing anything about your playstyle ? it may change the results against that build, but again if it is playstyle that is important to you, then you have to accept that results may change over the time in an evolving game if you stick to your style. if you instead set your focus for results, you will adapt every change and will have to live with your playstyle changing.horses or just walking were a common way of travelling long distances many years ago, you can still travel by horse noone is stopping you, a plane is just faster.

i am a thief if you like it or not. i just dont care for playstyle, i care for results and am ready to use every playstyle the thief offers to get them.

I hover around the same generic template that I always change a little along the way but with DE rifle and I try to play reflexively efficient thinking a few steps ahead and leaving options as I always have. I've commented a few times how DrD staff play translates pretty well to standing rifle in terms of movement, spacing/positioning, and ground covered and my opener is doing roughly the same to your health bar as it would if I were using core Steal. Switching from say core s/d to rifle de is easier for me than going to something like s/p as far as free to stationary movement and how that will dictate my build and stats.

Start with getting yourself to a point where you can land instinctively where you want with Death's Retreat untargeted and you might more of that familiar thief feel.

@MUDse.7623 said:funny how people often see deadeye as not a part of thief, wasnt like that with daredevil..

I can only speak for myself, but as a Core Thief without the expansions until recently, I always viewed the Daredevil separately than a Core Thief. However, playstyle-wise, Daredevil seems to just be a modified Acrobatics Thief of old... with fancy dodges.

@killy.3278 said:I'd guess it's because not having steal is a huge change in terms of playing style, and there's a non-trivial portion of the thief population that doesn't like relying so much on ranged set.

When I think of Deadeye, I think of Rifle. I really wish they would split Deadeye's Mark's functionality depending on the equipped weapon set. If it's Rifle, Shortbow, or main-hand Pistol, let it work as usual. If it's a melee weapon, then make it a shadowstep like normal Steal. On both versions, remove the cast time... it is insanely annoying. Either way, if a third dodge is enough of a special function for the Daredevil, then being able to mark a target is enough for the Deadeye. You don't need to make Steal play differently when using a melee set. Keeping distance when using a ranged set is a great benefit, but lose the cast time.

Except with infiltrator's arrow, your other problems are more tied to skill than the mechanic itself. Of course backstab will be hard to land in a sea of mobs, that's kinda the point of the skill.

Thief has many problems, but those last 2 that you listed aren't them.