Warrior and Guardion tanking???? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Warrior and Guardion tanking????

this is a good topic right now becouse this is sooo odd it makes no sence. I have been playing mmorpg for a long time so when it comes to war and guard its soo odd that they can not tank in this game at all...Why!!?? i know in any other game the war can tank and it can dps but why in this game can the war not tank at all we have the heavy armor and the hp to tank but we cant tank its like the war class is brocken becouse it cant tank for raids and stuff. as for guardion they like palidons so in short they should be able to tank by self-healing and they have the armor for it so why cant they tank at all also its one of the things that makes the game feel verry off for any old time mmorpg players. I know your about to say becouse the mes can do it better but that is not a good resoning for why the 2 most known class in all of gameing cant tank at all for raids and stuff. in short it feels like the classes were hit just to make the mes supper good everywere but the staples of the mmorpg just get caned for it. so why cant the war and guard tank at all ples explane this to me without useing the words becouse mes is jsut better at everything and that is that i want a real responce for this.

Comments

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well Gw2 has no tradotional trinity as you might recall. Thus there is no fixed tank role.
    In group content it is decided differently who us the tank. Normally its the one with the highest toughness. In other parts its the one fixated by the boss so a fluent tank so to speak.

    Warrior and Guard both could do tanking very well.
    Guard has many active defenses and a plethra of blocks.
    Warr has s a plethra of immunities and dmg mitigation, so passive defenses.

    Reason why mesmer (or rather chrono) is the go to tank in raids is because they can cover multiple utility roles.
    Tank wise i would actually argue that warr and guard are better, but mesmser can cover a full boon support, off healer and tank at the same time and still deal consistent dps and reliable CC (although not that high still good).
    The reason why that is the meta is simple to deduce: less support roles needed more dps roles possible.

    Personally i think Sbreaker would be an awesome Offtank with good CC and dmg while soaking dmg.
    And FB would be a sweet quickness boon support tank.
    Chrono is just plain out better (i know you didnt want to hear that) but not because its a "better tank" so to speak but because it can handle so many utility roles at once.

  • TanksK.4795TanksK.4795 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean..It makes sense right? I don't know why pink butterfly light armor class has to dominate tank spot...

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TanksK.4795 said:
    I mean..It makes sense right? I don't know why pink butterfly light armor class has to dominate tank spot...

    Because it's the most useful class while tanking. Tanks in other games have only that role, mesmer is more versatile in that field since it can support while tanking with no issues.

    Deso's favorite FROG
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  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If the mesmer's support could be given outside of a relatively tanky setup, the warrior would probably be used as a tank because banners don't need a specific setup to be usefull.

    Anyway, any profession can tank, the tools are there for all professions. Mesmers are the one taken because their support is necessary and "optimal".

  • Imperadordf.2687Imperadordf.2687 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's because Chrono's meta build already includes a lot of defenses. To tank, both warrior and guardian need to take tanky gear, thus sacrificing DPS.

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    ok but i still dont understand why the hell the 2 classes that have heavy armor that are made for fighting never tank in this game it makes no sence at all for a light armor class to tank. it just feels like they dont think completly when they made a choice like this.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belishine.7493 said:
    ok but i still dont understand why the hell the 2 classes that have heavy armor that are made for fighting never tank in this game it makes no sence at all for a light armor class to tank. it just feels like they dont think completly when they made a choice like this.

    They both "tank" in pvp modes. Warr has 10+ seconds of damage imunity and guard has lots of access to blocks. Pvp modes are also more suited for burst damage so you can still do meaningful damage. Structured pve revolves around sustained dps, which you cant afford while using skills and cooldowns on damage mitigation. Both warr and guard are fairly worse supports than chrono in pve as well.

    Pve doesnt have tank role, it's just a person holding aggro, so the build that loses the least will be the "tank". Since in pve you want supports and damage dealers, you'd want one of the supports to hold aggro since they are tankier than dps. You could easily "tank" on a healer, but due to druid (best buffer/healer in pve) having small radius on some heals/buffs and chrono having lots of active defenses, meta choice for "tanking" is chrono.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To unconfuse the OP, the concept pretty simple. Combat in this game isn't focused on Damage soaking....... which is the keystone of Cleric and the Holy Trinity. In that trinity design, the incoming attrition damage scale is pretty linear on both sides. The key difference is that while PCs have a much lower HP pool, the Healer replenishes it. If you were to add up the amount healed on the Tank during a WoW dungeon raid, it could realistically be 2 orders of magnitude higher then their Max HP, and reasonably close to the boss they were all fighting. The Raid boss on the other hand typically won't heal; so their HP pool is massive to compensate.

    GW2 raids are modeled on a similar principle; except theres 2 key differences. The lethal damage threshold is a lot lower due all the classes having a PvP minded scale of damage. Secondly, we have no reliable targeted healing, While is possible to recreate the Trinity in a team comp, its grossly inefficient and has higher risk factor, even with bunker builds. This problem is what lead to the creation of ChornoTank. Because this game's buildcraft is so flexible, most classes are capable of role compression.... in fact, its the foundation of why open world builds are multifaceted enough to allow support, self sustain and damage functionality to create solo builds. Thats critical to understanding what comes next.....

    Chorno is inherently a support spec. As a single build, it offers 2 extremely potent boons that effectively double the DPS of the group. Chrono also has a Shield offering 2 blocks on a fairly short cool down, plus a 3rd block on their second weapon set. This is on top of the fact that Mesmer is also a Duelist class at its core, and excels at 1v1 combat with multiple options for damage **avoidance **, can share some of those defenses with Allies, and base line access to a large amount of hard CCs, which are important to most boss fights. Even when speced for damage, their defenses make them practically untouchable. This makes them a perfect candidate for an Evasion Tank, and doesn't cost them their support role functions to be able to take on. By compressing 3 functions (Evasion Tank, Alacrity, Quickness generation), its freed up 1 (sometimes 2) additional party slot for other things. To get Alacrity and Quickness without a Chrono would take a combined effort of a Renegade and a FireBrand. With the Druid doing Healing/Might stacks, thats automatically 3 mandatory builds Per Sub Group, where the Chorno/Druid combo only takes 2.

    If a warrior or guardian were to tank, both would have to give up substantial DPS to support more defensive builds. Since Chrono is already giving up most of its weak damage potential to run Support, thats one more slot that can be dedicated to a high DPS build or Fight specific build. And its not to say either guard or warrior are incapable of tanking..... ** theres just not reason to**, when Chrono can do better, does other stuff, and takes less coordination to make work.

    What Team Comp would you need to have a Guard do tank? Lets assume Firebrand is good at it and generates quickness. So we pair with a Renegade or Chrono for Alacrity. If Firebrand can heal in this fight, we toss out Druid and swap in Soulbeast to keep ranger spirits. Still need a Warrior for Banners, also raises the question of it needs to be might stacker (which takes it from a DPS slot to a Offensive support, losing damage to do so). Thats 4 slots already- 1 non-dps Tank/healer, 2 DPS Support, 1 DPS, and 1 open slot. Double that because warrior might is limited to 5 people, and thats costing 8 slots minimum for the Comp. Those last slots would probably on take a Deadeye, Weaver, or Holosmith as a DPS. If the Warrior tanks, this is still basically the same types of classes, but the Warrior DPS is even lower as the Firebrand still needs healing power investment.

    With the Chornotank comp, we'll assume 2 Chronos and 2 Druids for the Support roles; druids can also bring 2 additional spirit types to the fight. 1 Warrior for the whole team since banners cover 10 people. Thats just 5 slot for the baseline buffs, leaving 5 slots open for any DPS or fight specific build. You want a "real response" to why this meta came to be? Here it is.

    Some groups even shave this down further by dropping one druid from the comp.

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    it still seams like a bad desighn for mes to be a tank and the staple of rpg like war and guard to not tank ever in raids. i could see guard tanking becouse they did add the overhealins makeing a barior for damage medagation. if guard could get this and then add it to the party and have it decay at a slower time then the necros then i could see them tank but this will require a rework or a new elite. i just want to see the war and the guard finaly tank in raids and stuff rather then just the dam mes alll the time.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belishine.7493 said:
    it still seams like a bad desighn for mes to be a tank and the staple of rpg like war and guard to not tank ever in raids. i could see guard tanking becouse they did add the overhealins makeing a barior for damage medagation. if guard could get this and then add it to the party and have it decay at a slower time then the necros then i could see them tank but this will require a rework or a new elite. i just want to see the war and the guard finaly tank in raids and stuff rather then just the dam mes alll the time.

    Because your brain is stuck in this rigid (and largely incorrect) mind set that trinity mechanics are a foundation of RPGs. They definitely are not. And in fact, didn't really exist as a design pillar prior to MMORPGs and its potato AI behaviors. The closest thing to it would be concept of a front line and back line in party formations, with the front lines physically obstructing movement. Half the RPG video games, and nearly all MMOs ignore collision with friendly units and line of sight concerns..... which is part of the reason why taunt/centralized tanking could even exist, and is actually kind of needed to protect "back line" units.

    Overhealing in Firebrand isn't meant to be "damage mitigation"; just not like its not for Druid, which also overheals even after the nerf. The numbers they accomplish are a carry mechanism for PUG groups, which are likely not able to avoid damage like a practiced static group. If it was meant to be integral for the design of the boss fight, healers would be under constant pressure and would need better "targeted" spike healing. GW2 healing skills display the exact opposite characteristics, with sustained healing being low value and small AOE, while all external/group burst healing skills have very larger effect areas and long cool downs. We call them Panic Buttons, because these shouldn't be needed except when something goes terribly wrong. The reason for this is every class has access to at least 1 large value self-healing skill that the sustained healing helps compliment. So when group's health is being over taxed, its not just overtaxing the healer, its overtaxing the combined self sustain potential of the whole party..... of which the Tank is actively supposed to mitigate against by keeping key targets occupied. And if thats the intent for this system, then I could call THAT bad design, given theres already a ton of pressure on team comps to meet minimum DPS and CC thresholds, split group requirements, and encounter specific builds to address various mechanics. Our healing mechanics are built completely the wrong way if this was what they were shooting for. Thats kind of the reason WoW Raids go up to 40/50 man groups..... 10 slots is not a lot of room to meet that many build conflicting requirements, without the benefit of heavy role compression.

    But then look at how the specs mechanics operate. Firebrand can't tank and heal at the same time, given how their skills work (too bursty, and an active tome monopolizes their attention). Druid isn't even that good of a sustained healer as a skill set, because Staff is heavily conditional on positioning and would have to be BEHIND the tank (the most dangerous places in a boss fight) in order for those skills to function properly. Celestial Avatar is burst healing, and also extremely conditional on when it can be used (ie needs full CA, and has an Cooldown on the transform itself). The skills that avoid this problem are completely passive (water spirit being one of the stronger ones). That leaves Ele and Rev as the 2 classes that could get sustainable healing at a high enough value to act as dedicated healer; yet I rarely see either of them be accused of overhealing.

    And thats not even BEGINNING to get into the purpose of the Barrier mechanic and Support Scourge. So no... the over healing in most of the support builds is not designed around the idea of damage mitigation as a strategy; its designed around the idea of reversing mistakes (aka getting hit too much) so the party doesn't constantly wipe. Those strong burst heals aren't sustainable either..... often having a minute or more between uses, and often chained in a rotation for their secondary benefits rather then their raw healing. Any straight "only does healing" skills get no real respect in this meta; so much so, that Ventari was augmented with additional support features AFTER it was introduced to the game, and STILL couldn't find a good place in the meta. Chorno Tank was not the reason for that Lack Luster appeal..... its the fact that pure healing is the least valuable aspect of a support build, because most conceptual tank builds (especially ones built on Minstrels stat) can sustain themselves pretty readily.

    Speaking of which; Overwatch's community had this long drawn out myth that a Support Class needed to have strong healing to be viable. Its also became the center piece argument of Symettra's placement in the roster, as most of her kit excelled at holding a position rather then keeping people alive. Then you have an offensive support like Zenny, whose pretty bad in direct 1v1 combat, but has strong damage and a debuff that can amplify it, making him one of the most dangerous +1s in game. He also has terrible healing, and gets a lot flak for it. And don't even get me started on the whole "Orisas not my tank" thing after she was added.

    Its as if a game not designed around a rigid 1:1 role requirement that resembles a house of cards, can somehow behave in a way that its design logic allows for. As broken as Chrono is in terms of role compression, we're not the ones relying heavily on a design principle that scales most heavily on DPS, to design the game's "hardest fights". And sadly, we don't have much of a choice until the AI gets smart enough to fight a like a player, rather then a potato playing Rock/Paper/Scissors.

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    Are you kidding me? if anything warrior needs to be seriously toned down with how much they can actually tank. They dont really have much of any trade off at all while being able to absorb damage, all the while dishing out even more at times on shorter cooldowns then other classes. It has insane access to stability, mobility, high bursts of damage as well as being able to absorb damage from more then 5 people for a decent period of time.

    People may say, "Well they dont have good ranged options", which doesnt even matter cause when you have stability anda re able to cover long distances in a skill or 2, range doesnt mean much.

    This is coming from a WvW perspective.

  • Scud.5067Scud.5067 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    Putting the, ''There are no tanks in GW2 (but really, there is and its a Mesmer, specifically Chronomancers)'' spiel aside, I kinda agree with you.

    It would be nice to see Warriors and Guardians - heck, anyone else - move to be en par with Mesmers, with regards to tanking, in a Raid environment

    Outside of Raids - see ''There are no tanks in GW2 etc etc ....''

    However, having no tanks (kinda, ish ok.. ) is not 'bad' design. It is a design you don't like. And that's ok. But that doesn't make it 'bad'. Having only one class as a viable tank in a Raid setting? Ok, yeah, we can kinda agree that's 'bad' - for a given value of 'bad'.

  • Uden Reavstone.3426Uden Reavstone.3426 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 28, 2018

    Bunker Guardian and Bunker Ele are both very fun builds that can tank, support, and do some damage and cc (Ele more so than Guardian). They might not be the meta anymore, but nothing says you can only play the meta. I don't.

    The Charr shall rule!

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belishine.7493 said:
    it still seams like a bad desighn for mes to be a tank and the staple of rpg like war and guard to not tank ever in raids. i could see guard tanking becouse they did add the overhealins makeing a barior for damage medagation. if guard could get this and then add it to the party and have it decay at a slower time then the necros then i could see them tank but this will require a rework or a new elite. i just want to see the war and the guard finaly tank in raids and stuff rather then just the dam mes alll the time.

    Just because the game design isn't what you are accustomed to doesn't mean it's bad game design. One could also say that because other games restrict tanking to just the heavy armor classes that they have bad game design because they are clearly unimaginative, uninspired, dull, boring, and are just carbon copying games like WoW and Everquest. The issue isn't that they can't tank, it's that people in GW2 want more out of a tank than just tanking, which is what you are basically talking about. The tank tanks the healer heals the DPS DPS etc etc etc. When it comes time to raid most raid parties want more out of the various members of the party than just straight up one role. Mesmer gets picked over Warrior or Guardian not because they can't tank, because they can, but because people who do raids want more out of every member of the team. Thus the key here isn't to make Warrior or Guardian more tanky or better at tanking as you would suggest. The fix would be to move Guardian and Warrior further away from the game design you want them to be stuck to and make give them more to do outside of just tanking.

    But really the problem is the mindset of the players. People have very rigid ideas about what makes for a good raid party and they don't really deviate from that. Because there is very little deviation from the "perfect and ideal" a lot of professions that are very good at what they do get sidelined in favor of chasing benchmark performance. Just like you have this very rigid idea of who should be good at tanking other players have very rigid ideas of how closely they stick to the highest level of maximum efficiency.

    However, this is really not a case of bad game design. Warriors and Guardians are fully capable of tanking. They are also fully capable of being and doing other things too. Not being tethered to the Holy Trinity makes it possible for both professions to become so much more than would be allowed for otherwise. This, in turn, will allow future Elites to explore beyond just soaking up damage. It's one of the reasons why this game is so much fun. It's not for everyone but it not being for you doesn't make it bad.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Introducing the unholy MMORPG trinity for Raids was one of the biggest mistakes Anet have made with the game. Simple as that.

    The lack of it was one of the biggest attractions to the game initially for me.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Introducing the unholy MMORPG trinity for Raids was one of the biggest mistakes Anet have made with the game. Simple as that.

    The lack of it was one of the biggest attractions to the game initially for me.

    Ele and guard can heal without elite specs. Warr is also pretty durable to be tank. Elite specs just made supports useful in more fields, and "trinity" would exist regardless of any post core game content.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Introducing the unholy MMORPG trinity for Raids was one of the biggest mistakes Anet have made with the game. Simple as that.

    The lack of it was one of the biggest attractions to the game initially for me.

    Ele and guard can heal without elite specs. Warr is also pretty durable to be tank. Elite specs just made supports useful in more fields, and "trinity" would exist regardless of any post core game content.

    That does not a trinity make. All content prior to Raids did not require it.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Introducing the unholy MMORPG trinity for Raids was one of the biggest mistakes Anet have made with the game. Simple as that.

    The lack of it was one of the biggest attractions to the game initially for me.

    Ele and guard can heal without elite specs. Warr is also pretty durable to be tank. Elite specs just made supports useful in more fields, and "trinity" would exist regardless of any post core game content.

    That does not a trinity make. All content prior to Raids did not require it.

    That's because old content is a joke. Bosses would die in 20 seconds at most, without you taking any damage. It also had minimal build diversity since conditions builds were most of the time useless (they barely existed) and not all classes have access to aoe buffs or high burst.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Warriors and Guardians can tank. But there's no reason for them to, since it represents a DPS loss, given the current alternatives.

    In other games, you only have a narrow set of choices for tanks. In GW2, theoretically any class can control the aggro of the boss while not dying.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    Introducing the unholy MMORPG trinity for Raids was one of the biggest mistakes Anet have made with the game. Simple as that.

    The lack of it was one of the biggest attractions to the game initially for me.

    Ele and guard can heal without elite specs. Warr is also pretty durable to be tank. Elite specs just made supports useful in more fields, and "trinity" would exist regardless of any post core game content.

    That does not a trinity make. All content prior to Raids did not require it.

    That's because old content is a joke. Bosses would die in 20 seconds at most, without you taking any damage. It also had minimal build diversity since conditions builds were most of the time useless (they barely existed) and not all classes have access to aoe buffs or high burst.

    No, even when dungeons was the premiere PvE content there was never any need for the trinity. The game was designed from the ground up to allow such builds but never require them.

    As I said, it was a biiiiiig selling point of the game.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    Soo what i am seeing is that the raid junk is messing this all up becouse they made a trinity for it but with that to be stated no one want to try stuff out of the raw dumed down meta that makes this game soooo boring to play now.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belishine.7493 said:
    Soo what i am seeing is that the raid junk is messing this all up becouse they made a trinity for it but with that to be stated no one want to try stuff out of the raw dumed down meta that makes this game soooo boring to play now.

    Like the endgame of 99% of MMORPGs indeed.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    Most of this topic is about explaining why chronomancer is the "main tank" in this game. So the argument about holy trinity not having any place in this game is simply not true. This game has a pseudo version of holy trinity and this entire topic proves it. Holy trinity is result of specialisation of labour within group content which will always yield better results than every player in the group being an "ok hybrid".

    Biggest problem with this isn't the fact that a light armored wizard is "main" tank, the problem is that it was never advertised from the beginning as such. Unlike Guardian who was always advertised as "protector" class, mesmer was never advertised as "this will eventually be meta main tank class".

    Problem with this game is that classes don't have a predictable identity, so if I want to play a certain style, my safest bet is to have one toon of each class. Thats because you don't know what Anet is gonna do with next patches or with next elite specs. Any class can go in any direction, which is both a positive and a negative for this game.

  • Kreslin.6832Kreslin.6832 Member ✭✭
    edited July 31, 2018

    I just don't understand one thing. If some weakling in a robe can survive in a front line... why do we have characters with heavy armor in the first place? I'm not talking about gameplay with specific skills. I'm talking about the concept in general. 

    What makes heavy armored character different from character in robes?  Heavy armored character can stay in front line and absorb damage. That's why he wears heavy armor. The character in robes can't stay in front line. His robes can't protect him. That's how it works.  

    But, if mesmer, a wizard/illusionist in robes can tank, stay in front line, and thus guardian and warrior don't need to do this job anymore... 
    Why do we have medieval setting with knights in the first place? Why don't we have, I don't know, a Victorian Era, only with magic? Where everyone wear clothes. 

    Okay, it is a concept thing. About the gameplay... Well... As I said,  Anet removed the holly trinity, but didn't bring the true alternative. Every class can do every role, which might sounds good, but what do we have in reality? We don't have individuality. What's the difference between warrior and elementalist for example? Both of them can survive, both of them can deal massive aoe damage. 

    You know, for me a good alternative to holly trinity is a moba game. But GW2... well, while I like this game, I keep asking myself - what do we have instead of the holly trinity? And I can't find the answer. All I can see is unfinished, and thus, shallow system.  But imho this game has completely wrong concept, where squishy can do the same thing heavy armored guy does.

    That's why we have such thing like Chronomancer being top "tank", while we have a "protector" Guardian. 

  • Tehologist.5841Tehologist.5841 Member ✭✭✭

    The holy trinity is ancient, I started playing ancient anguish in 1994, it was a mud. Text based mmo, we had tanks, bashers and support. The tank would have skills to allow them to soak damage, either a pet (necro, ranger) or strong damage absorption (thief, paladin, cleric). High dps were usually fighters and support was mages (haste). The tank would have a command to rescue and take all the aggro. Everquest just copied the design as did wow and everything after. The only thing that mattered was dps as we were looking to kill as much per hour to maximize loot and xp. Speed runs meant memorizing boss mechanics and routes to hit high xp targets on the way to various towns, selling loot and buying consumables as fast as possible, we would drop as many heals as possible in the room before the fight. High level targets would be worth about 8k experience, many of the bosses could nearly one shot if messed up and people were pulling 1 million xp an hour. The point is, the holy trinity and that type of game play is ancient, I am glad we have more options in party composition.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2018

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    The holy trinity is ancient, I started playing ancient anguish in 1994, it was a mud. Text based mmo, we had tanks, bashers and support. The tank would have skills to allow them to soak damage, either a pet (necro, ranger) or strong damage absorption (thief, paladin, cleric). High dps were usually fighters and support was mages (haste). The tank would have a command to rescue and take all the aggro. Everquest just copied the design as did wow and everything after. The only thing that mattered was dps as we were looking to kill as much per hour to maximize loot and xp. Speed runs meant memorizing boss mechanics and routes to hit high xp targets on the way to various towns, selling loot and buying consumables as fast as possible, we would drop as many heals as possible in the room before the fight. High level targets would be worth about 8k experience, many of the bosses could nearly one shot if messed up and people were pulling 1 million xp an hour. The point is, the holy trinity and that type of game play is ancient, I am glad we have more options in party composition.

    it still isnt rly the topic here...op is questioning why we have heavy/medium/light armor when it doesnt mean kitten what you wear. its not rly logical to wear heay armor when you could also wear lighter stuff but tank just as much.

    as to that, in wvw the frontline actually consists almost pureley out of guardians and warriors.

    also heavy armor just looks cooler. its fashion wars 2 after all

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2018

    If a light amor character can tank in the game, I believe any heavy amor character can do the same. If the heavy amor character is having difficulties tanking, it would be another underlying cause. As for why a chrono is preferred, cause it's the META. The "tank" duty in GW2 is just to position the boss and in order to do so; to survive. By that, any class profession can "tank".

    As for the rest, can be answered together with "Why must a warrior/guardian or any heavy amor class be the main tank?". The fixation idea of other games?

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kreslin.6832 said:
    I just don't understand one thing. If some weakling in a robe can survive in a front line... why do we have characters with heavy armor in the first place? I'm not talking about gameplay with specific skills. I'm talking about the concept in general. 

    What makes heavy armored character different from character in robes?  Heavy armored character can stay in front line and absorb damage. That's why he wears heavy armor. The character in robes can't stay in front line. His robes can't protect him. That's how it works.  

    But, if mesmer, a wizard/illusionist in robes can tank, stay in front line, and thus guardian and warrior don't need to do this job anymore... 
    Why do we have medieval setting with knights in the first place? Why don't we have, I don't know, a Victorian Era, only with magic? Where everyone wear clothes. 

    Okay, it is a concept thing. About the gameplay... Well... As I said,  Anet removed the holly trinity, but didn't bring the true alternative. Every class can do every role, which might sounds good, but what do we have in reality? We don't have individuality. What's the difference between warrior and elementalist for example? Both of them can survive, both of them can deal massive aoe damage. 

    You know, for me a good alternative to holly trinity is a moba game. But GW2... well, while I like this game, I keep asking myself - what do we have instead of the holly trinity? And I can't find the answer. All I can see is unfinished, and thus, shallow system.  But imho this game has completely wrong concept, where squishy can do the same thing heavy armored guy does.

    That's why we have such thing like Chronomancer being top "tank", while we have a "protector" Guardian. 

    Heavy armor is mostly a cosmetic thing, especially vs bosses. It only helps a bit vs normal mobs or players. Difference in armor between light and heavy is not that important and toughness can quickly feel the gap.
    My warrior feels fragile without toughness when I get hit. But with some toughness, I really feel the difference. Like beeing able to survive a big hit that would have downed me without that toughness.

    Gw2 went for a simple system but it isnt good for armors. Armor should provide a separate damage reduction multiplier and then, you apply another with toughness. Something like 20, 30, and 40%. Heavy would be twice more efficient than light.

    Hopefully for me, I really like heavy design and not much medium/light. Therefore, I accepted the fact that heavy doesnt provide much and that I need to use some toughness trinkets.
    I couldn't play a chrono for the sole reason of light armor.

  • Tehologist.5841Tehologist.5841 Member ✭✭✭

    Guild wars 1 the best tanks in the games were assassins and monks. They could literally negate all damage. Monks could also play bond builds to reduce damage significantly for other tanks. To tank a class simply needs to be able to reduce or evade damage. Heavy armor classes can just reduce more with no investment in additional skills. All classes have access to increased toughness though. Knights vs berserker stats for instance. Taking no damage through evasion is always superior though.

  • If there was more mechanics that were blockable but not evadeable you would see more Warr/ Guard tanking.

    As it stands, evasion is king in all forms. In that sense, Thief’s ‘Death Blossom’ is a better tanking skill than Guard focus 5 in all but the most niche of content.

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    Guild wars 1 the best tanks in the games were assassins and monks. They could literally negate all damage. Monks could also play bond builds to reduce damage significantly for other tanks. To tank a class simply needs to be able to reduce or evade damage. Heavy armor classes can just reduce more with no investment in additional skills. All classes have access to increased toughness though. Knights vs berserker stats for instance. Taking no damage through evasion is always superior though.

    Assassins and monks had a weakness with enchant removals.
    Warriors with defy pain (with 16 strength) and a shield were almost invulnerable.

  • Diak Atoli.2085Diak Atoli.2085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Tehologist.5841 said:
    Guild wars 1 the best tanks in the games were assassins and monks. They could literally negate all damage. Monks could also play bond builds to reduce damage significantly for other tanks. To tank a class simply needs to be able to reduce or evade damage. Heavy armor classes can just reduce more with no investment in additional skills. All classes have access to increased toughness though. Knights vs berserker stats for instance. Taking no damage through evasion is always superior though.

    Assassins and monks had a weakness with enchant removals.
    Warriors with defy pain (with 16 strength) and a shield were almost invulnerable.

    There's also the fact that the only 'tank' builds were solo builds. Parties just used Prot Monks or ST Rits.

  • Tehologist.5841Tehologist.5841 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2018

    My favorite was paragons with the gain 100 armor shout, made the entire party very hard to kill. I hope they give warriors spear and a shout elite spec, I miss paragons.

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    you say in thierie that any class can tank but a few classes cant tank at all so it goes out the window for ex. a rev sounds like it should be able to tank but it turns out to just heal and dps but not tank so well or ranger when in druid form can tank but due to the nerf to it it cant tank. so the idea that any class can tank is just rong now. i still have the issue with mes being the tank becouse of this main reson what is making it tank for ex in eq if i play a enchanter normaly i cant tank but if i use the right spells i can tank but mes in gw2 is like im king at all so i barly try to tank and i can do supper were is the balance of this. i also have a issue were i have a war or a guardion and they have heavy armor and yet they can die like a ele so were is the point in haveing a war or any heavy class at all if the armor does jack for them. with all this being stated i think they messed up some stuff like this for ex. if i have a heavy toon i should naturaly have a higher resistence to stuff but i dont just like a mage should be more reseistante to magic. this is were i see the big issue in this game its like a huge fisher for me in this game. this is not just becosue i am used to the holly trinity of this typ it just simple logic.from what i can tell is eq a mutch older game has the war as a tank or they can be dps with no issue but when you come to gw2 to me almost all the classes fell the same its just not right.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anet would need to make some system changes to how tanking works, Nerf Chrono into the ground or Buff warrior and guardian support to warrant them over a chrono tank. And I'm with you on wanting to see more professions able to tank because its been Chrono tank since HoT. Of course it didn't start that way. Guardians were at first but then people realized pretty quickly how busted Chronomancer was as a tank. And even with all the nerfs they've received they are still light years ahead of the next closest thing. Now if they made it so that Taunt would actually break a bosses aggro and have them focus you that would be something that could help. But now I'm just suggesting stuff that other games have done before.

    But I think the problem is far more complex from a design stand point. I really think Anet put themselves into a corner with Chronomancer.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2018

    @steki.1478 said:

    That's because old content is a joke. Bosses would die in 20 seconds at most, without you taking any damage. It also had minimal build diversity since conditions builds were most of the time useless (they barely existed) and not all classes have access to aoe buffs or high burst.

    You know, new players struggle hard in this joke of an old content. This content is only a joke when you've grown accustomed to it and know the optimal way to beat it.

    And this is also what tend to happen to raids, a part of the community grew accustomed to them and every now and then they ask anet to make them more challenging because "the difficulty is a joke, look we can 5 man this boss!" or "we've done it without even wearing armor, to easy!". This is a matter of perspective, the more you are used to a content the easier it feel.

  • @Belishine.7493 said:
    you say in thierie that any class can tank but a few classes cant tank at all so it goes out the window for ex. a rev sounds like it should be able to tank but it turns out to just heal and dps but not tank

    Revenant can tank and it can tank well; I’ve done it personally on every boss. The issue is not that it can’t tank (same with Firebrand) but the role compression that Mesmer provides makes Mesmer the easier (for building a group) and slightly better choice for speed clear meta strats. There are other tanks besides Mesmer that can do the job well, this is a fact. My raid/fractal group nearly always runs off-meta with a Firebrand heal tank, and honestly, it works better for our group most of the time simply due to how much extra defense and healing it can output while maintaining 100% quickness. This means that several of our members with Australian Ping are more easily covered when they make mistakes.

  • Diak Atoli.2085Diak Atoli.2085 Member ✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Belishine.7493 said:
    you say in thierie that any class can tank but a few classes cant tank at all so it goes out the window for ex. a rev sounds like it should be able to tank but it turns out to just heal and dps but not tank

    Revenant can tank and it can tank well; I’ve done it personally on every boss. The issue is not that it can’t tank (same with Firebrand) but the role compression that Mesmer provides makes Mesmer the easier (for building a group) and slightly better choice for speed clear meta strats. There are other tanks besides Mesmer that can do the job well, this is a fact. My raid/fractal group nearly always runs off-meta with a Firebrand heal tank, and honestly, it works better for our group most of the time simply due to how much extra defense and healing it can output while maintaining 100% quickness. This means that several of our members with Australian Ping are more easily covered when they make mistakes.

    Bu-b-but that's not META! Only META is allowed in Guild Wars 2!

    On a serious note: Any class can 'tank' in Guild Wars 2. What everyone focuses on isn't how well a Chronomancer 'tanks', but what it does in addition to 'tanking'.

  • Kreslin.6832Kreslin.6832 Member ✭✭
    edited August 2, 2018

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Kreslin.6832 said:
    I just don't understand one thing. If some weakling in a robe can survive in a front line... why do we have characters with heavy armor in the first place? I'm not talking about gameplay with specific skills. I'm talking about the concept in general. 

    What makes heavy armored character different from character in robes?  Heavy armored character can stay in front line and absorb damage. That's why he wears heavy armor. The character in robes can't stay in front line. His robes can't protect him. That's how it works.  

    But, if mesmer, a wizard/illusionist in robes can tank, stay in front line, and thus guardian and warrior don't need to do this job anymore... 
    Why do we have medieval setting with knights in the first place? Why don't we have, I don't know, a Victorian Era, only with magic? Where everyone wear clothes. 

    Okay, it is a concept thing. About the gameplay... Well... As I said,  Anet removed the holly trinity, but didn't bring the true alternative. Every class can do every role, which might sounds good, but what do we have in reality? We don't have individuality. What's the difference between warrior and elementalist for example? Both of them can survive, both of them can deal massive aoe damage. 

    You know, for me a good alternative to holly trinity is a moba game. But GW2... well, while I like this game, I keep asking myself - what do we have instead of the holly trinity? And I can't find the answer. All I can see is unfinished, and thus, shallow system.  But imho this game has completely wrong concept, where squishy can do the same thing heavy armored guy does.

    That's why we have such thing like Chronomancer being top "tank", while we have a "protector" Guardian. 

    Heavy armor is mostly a cosmetic thing, especially vs bosses. It only helps a bit vs normal mobs or players. Difference in armor between light and heavy is not that important and toughness can quickly feel the gap.
    My warrior feels fragile without toughness when I get hit. But with some toughness, I really feel the difference. Like beeing able to survive a big hit that would have downed me without that toughness.

    Gw2 went for a simple system but it isnt good for armors. Armor should provide a separate damage reduction multiplier and then, you apply another with toughness. Something like 20, 30, and 40%. Heavy would be twice more efficient than light.

    Hopefully for me, I really like heavy design and not much medium/light. Therefore, I accepted the fact that heavy doesnt provide much and that I need to use some toughness trinkets.
    I couldn't play a chrono for the sole reason of light armor.

    At least they could make toughness only for heavy characters. For medium and light characters, something different, which would suit them more than toughness and would make their "surviving" play style different form "tanking".
    Shame, cause I don't find playing heavy armored character only for "fashion style" sufficient. I want to feel being heavy warrior/guardian.

    This game is definitely not for me. :\

  • Diak Atoli.2085Diak Atoli.2085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kreslin.6832 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Kreslin.6832 said:
    I just don't understand one thing. If some weakling in a robe can survive in a front line... why do we have characters with heavy armor in the first place? I'm not talking about gameplay with specific skills. I'm talking about the concept in general. 

    What makes heavy armored character different from character in robes?  Heavy armored character can stay in front line and absorb damage. That's why he wears heavy armor. The character in robes can't stay in front line. His robes can't protect him. That's how it works.  

    But, if mesmer, a wizard/illusionist in robes can tank, stay in front line, and thus guardian and warrior don't need to do this job anymore... 
    Why do we have medieval setting with knights in the first place? Why don't we have, I don't know, a Victorian Era, only with magic? Where everyone wear clothes. 

    Okay, it is a concept thing. About the gameplay... Well... As I said,  Anet removed the holly trinity, but didn't bring the true alternative. Every class can do every role, which might sounds good, but what do we have in reality? We don't have individuality. What's the difference between warrior and elementalist for example? Both of them can survive, both of them can deal massive aoe damage. 

    You know, for me a good alternative to holly trinity is a moba game. But GW2... well, while I like this game, I keep asking myself - what do we have instead of the holly trinity? And I can't find the answer. All I can see is unfinished, and thus, shallow system.  But imho this game has completely wrong concept, where squishy can do the same thing heavy armored guy does.

    That's why we have such thing like Chronomancer being top "tank", while we have a "protector" Guardian. 

    Heavy armor is mostly a cosmetic thing, especially vs bosses. It only helps a bit vs normal mobs or players. Difference in armor between light and heavy is not that important and toughness can quickly feel the gap.
    My warrior feels fragile without toughness when I get hit. But with some toughness, I really feel the difference. Like beeing able to survive a big hit that would have downed me without that toughness.

    Gw2 went for a simple system but it isnt good for armors. Armor should provide a separate damage reduction multiplier and then, you apply another with toughness. Something like 20, 30, and 40%. Heavy would be twice more efficient than light.

    Hopefully for me, I really like heavy design and not much medium/light. Therefore, I accepted the fact that heavy doesnt provide much and that I need to use some toughness trinkets.
    I couldn't play a chrono for the sole reason of light armor.

    At least they could make toughness only for heavy characters. For medium and light characters, something different, which would suit them more than toughness and would make their "surviving" play style different form "tanking".
    Shame, cause I don't find playing heavy armored character only for "fashion style" sufficient. I want to feel being heavy warrior/guardian.

    This game is definitely not for me. :\

    I'm sorry you don't feel like Guild Wars 2 is for you.

    As for your complaint, making a Guardian, Warrior, or Revenant feel like a heavily armored profession is simple. You make it one.

    Build your gear towards toughness and vitality (Zealot's being the absolute bunker set.), run the defensive traitlines and utilities, use the defensive weapon sets.

    Example: Marauder's/Soldier's Guardian running Hammer + x/Shield, using Zeal/Honor/x. A very bunkered build that does not-inconsiderable damage.

  • @Kreslin.6832 said:
    I just don't understand one thing. If some weakling in a robe can survive in a front line... why do we have characters with heavy armor in the first place? I'm not talking about gameplay with specific skills. I'm talking about the concept in general. 

    Something alot of people that complain about "light armor" classes as tanks seems to not notice/misunderstand is that gw2 have 2 "concepts" of armor. Thoughness and armor.

    As base, all classes have 1000 thoughness. But the armor will differ, light classes have 1888 armor, medium classes have 2029 armor and heavy classes have 2167 armor. Thoughness is generally what attract agro from raid bosses (and even some mobs in open PvE/Fractals). So the more thoughness = more agro. And armor make you more tanky, as armor will reduse the damage you take from direct damage (only direct damage, not condition damage).

    Any thoughness you gain (after the first 1000 base thoughness) will also give you armor, in the ratio of 1 to 1.

    Now, here is the thing, the main job for a chrono in raids is to give boon to the party. And to be able to do this, they need boon duration, and to get this they use some armor/tinket stats that give this boon duration. As a SIDEEFFECT they also get some thoughness as this also is included in the stat combination. The meta build for full damage chrono therefore automaticly give 1418 thoughness --> 2385 armor and they are thereby also more tanky then any of the heavy armor classes.

    Now the heavy armor classes on the other hand do not need any thoughness in thier meta builds.

  • Actually, there is a slight inaccuracy. The reason warriors don't tank is not because they'd lose too much dps. Remember the chrono actually only does like 10k dps with chaos tank and banner warrior is 26k. You could make warrior able to tank and still bring banners, do more dps than chrono, and even bring support shout heals. The real issue is how overpowered chrono boonshare is and that mesmers don't have a build between their dps and support builds that can cover the boonshare while doing 26k. That means no class other than druid and chrono can tank because chrono is always mandatory and nothing can replace its support and it can't match the damage of any other class but druid. Druid usually doesnt tank because of other issues. The only way another class could tank is if a combination of 3 or less dps classes can share alacrity and quickness in a subgroup with the same uptime as chrono, which is 100% atm, without losing the dps between the tank and them that the chrono\tank swap slot gains.

    Meta Raid
    Sub with tank and banner warrior
    Chrono (10k)
    Warrior (26k)
    Dps 1
    Dps 2
    Druid

    Warrior tank
    Same sub
    Warrior' (12k?)
    Dps 1'
    Dps 2'
    Dps 3
    Druid

    There are two things needed for warrior to tank:
    1. Dps 3 => (Dps 1 - Dps 1') + (Dps 2 - Dps 2') + (Warrior - Warrior')
    2. Dps 1' Dps 2' and Dps 3 combined must have same boon uptime of alacrity and quickness as chrono could

    Realistically if dps 3 has 30k and tank warrior is around 12k then dps 1' and dps 2' would need to lose no more than 4k combined dps while helping dps 3 with alacrity and quickness uptime.

  • Kreslin.6832Kreslin.6832 Member ✭✭
    edited August 3, 2018

    @Diak Atoli.2085 said:

    @Kreslin.6832 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Kreslin.6832 said:
    I just don't understand one thing. If some weakling in a robe can survive in a front line... why do we have characters with heavy armor in the first place? I'm not talking about gameplay with specific skills. I'm talking about the concept in general. 

    What makes heavy armored character different from character in robes?  Heavy armored character can stay in front line and absorb damage. That's why he wears heavy armor. The character in robes can't stay in front line. His robes can't protect him. That's how it works.  

    But, if mesmer, a wizard/illusionist in robes can tank, stay in front line, and thus guardian and warrior don't need to do this job anymore... 
    Why do we have medieval setting with knights in the first place? Why don't we have, I don't know, a Victorian Era, only with magic? Where everyone wear clothes. 

    Okay, it is a concept thing. About the gameplay... Well... As I said,  Anet removed the holly trinity, but didn't bring the true alternative. Every class can do every role, which might sounds good, but what do we have in reality? We don't have individuality. What's the difference between warrior and elementalist for example? Both of them can survive, both of them can deal massive aoe damage. 

    You know, for me a good alternative to holly trinity is a moba game. But GW2... well, while I like this game, I keep asking myself - what do we have instead of the holly trinity? And I can't find the answer. All I can see is unfinished, and thus, shallow system.  But imho this game has completely wrong concept, where squishy can do the same thing heavy armored guy does.

    That's why we have such thing like Chronomancer being top "tank", while we have a "protector" Guardian. 

    Heavy armor is mostly a cosmetic thing, especially vs bosses. It only helps a bit vs normal mobs or players. Difference in armor between light and heavy is not that important and toughness can quickly feel the gap.
    My warrior feels fragile without toughness when I get hit. But with some toughness, I really feel the difference. Like beeing able to survive a big hit that would have downed me without that toughness.

    Gw2 went for a simple system but it isnt good for armors. Armor should provide a separate damage reduction multiplier and then, you apply another with toughness. Something like 20, 30, and 40%. Heavy would be twice more efficient than light.

    Hopefully for me, I really like heavy design and not much medium/light. Therefore, I accepted the fact that heavy doesnt provide much and that I need to use some toughness trinkets.
    I couldn't play a chrono for the sole reason of light armor.

    At least they could make toughness only for heavy characters. For medium and light characters, something different, which would suit them more than toughness and would make their "surviving" play style different form "tanking".
    Shame, cause I don't find playing heavy armored character only for "fashion style" sufficient. I want to feel being heavy warrior/guardian.

    This game is definitely not for me. :\

    I'm sorry you don't feel like Guild Wars 2 is for you.

    As for your complaint, making a Guardian, Warrior, or Revenant feel like a heavily armored profession is simple. You make it one.

    Build your gear towards toughness and vitality (Zealot's being the absolute bunker set.), run the defensive traitlines and utilities, use the defensive weapon sets.

    Example: Marauder's/Soldier's Guardian running Hammer + x/Shield, using Zeal/Honor/x. A very bunkered build that does not-inconsiderable damage.

    Unless I can use toughness based builds with my Guardian... let's say, in Fractals, I'd be happy. But such builds are useless in this game unfortunately. As to the solo play... I can feel being a heavy warrior while playing solo. I just can't feel this in party content, which is the main content, since it's an mmo, not a single rpg. :(

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kreslin.6832 said:
    I just don't understand one thing. If some weakling in a robe can survive in a front line... why do we have characters with heavy armor in the first place? I'm not talking about gameplay with specific skills. I'm talking about the concept in general. 

    What makes heavy armored character different from character in robes?  Heavy armored character can stay in front line and absorb damage. That's why he wears heavy armor. The character in robes can't stay in front line. His robes can't protect him. That's how it works.  

    But, if mesmer, a wizard/illusionist in robes can tank, stay in front line, and thus guardian and warrior don't need to do this job anymore... 
    Why do we have medieval setting with knights in the first place? Why don't we have, I don't know, a Victorian Era, only with magic? Where everyone wear clothes. 

    Okay, it is a concept thing. About the gameplay... Well... As I said,  Anet removed the holly trinity, but didn't bring the true alternative. Every class can do every role, which might sounds good, but what do we have in reality? We don't have individuality. What's the difference between warrior and elementalist for example? Both of them can survive, both of them can deal massive aoe damage. 

    You know, for me a good alternative to holly trinity is a moba game. But GW2... well, while I like this game, I keep asking myself - what do we have instead of the holly trinity? And I can't find the answer. All I can see is unfinished, and thus, shallow system.  But imho this game has completely wrong concept, where squishy can do the same thing heavy armored guy does.

    That's why we have such thing like Chronomancer being top "tank", while we have a "protector" Guardian. 

    If you just look at the damage mechanics and our stat system, the answer is glaringly obvious as to why this works. Every Class has the same Baseline stat performance at Max level, with the armor only creating a 20% span between light and heavy, and scales fairly linearly with difference in armor value. So in all cases, armor only accounts for roughly Half of the baseline defense value of a character, since we all have 1000 Toughness. That make the effective defense value difference only 10%, and scales much faster with additional toughness (which we can add), but no way of adding more armor.

    Most of the older MMOs used class defined stat disparities to emphasize each class's design philosophy; a hold over from its D&D roots, where classes have a min stat requirement to even choose, and creating a performance floor in the process. Warriors and Mages would have huge disparities in their physical durability, as Warriors would have defense values loaded almost entirely in their equipment, and their HP coming from a combination of CON and larger Hit Die per level. But Mages have a similar opportunity when it comes to Magic Resistance gained from enchantment spells and artifacts, and bonuses derived from INT and WIS.

    If we translated these mechanics in to GW2's design frame work, it actually respects D&D's mechanical flexibility a lot more then even the best RPG games based on the rule set. Even if a Warrior has 3 Con, they still get all that HP from their Hit Dice. With a Con of 15 they have bonus hit dice or a flat HP bonus (depending on edition). Or they could put all their points into DEX and STR, ride on the large hit dice for HP, and train in defense proficiency and reaction based defenses to improve their AC without having to invest in heavier armor. A choice of Active defenses that can be counters or dismantled, or passive defenses that often come with functional trade offs.
    In fact, the whole "Light/Med/Heavy" armor distinction is derived primarily on the idea that heavy armor is awkward, and negatively effects fine movement and motor skills.... which is why Spell heavy classes favor light armor, since spells tend to involve gestures, the preparation of objects, and concentration. Clerics wear medium armor because they're actually a front line class, and (mechanically) their spells are easier to invoke then Mages.... so med is a good mix of protection and mobility to let them navigate a battlefield. Rouge type classes use Med for similar reasons.... better protection then light, but doesn't hamper movement as much. But either could easily forego armor, and invest more into other defenses to get similar levels of protection- its just a lot more risky should those defenses fail, and requires more effort to maintain them.

    But another thing to consider is that D&D respects things like natural law, social behavior, and a tangible universe. Compare that to old MMORPGs, which stripped out anything that couldn't be expressed in simple mathematics, and streamlined heavily toward combat related math. Consider "I take a rope and tie it to a rock, then swing it around like a weapon". A P&P RPG has rules to deal with that, and still has the GM to resolve things the rules can't. For a video game that is the second hardest thing to do, right behind the physics simulation itself.... so instead it just cheats, and predefines a bunch of things about "rock + rope". But that has to be built BEFORE it can be used, and is no less work then designing a weapon skill or magic attack.

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    wow you though about this a bit but a cleric is a heavy armor user not a mid and the spells they cast are not easyer to cast but are of devin origen. so you are rong thare and as for the rogue going for mid armor is for the mobility and the fact that they dont make as mutch noise when you try to sneak or hide. so your info is off by a bit but i know what your talking about. still its sooo odd that war and guard never get chosen for raiding even though they are to be able to tank realy good but are only wanted for the dps they can do and nothing else. for ex i can play a war and but my points into str and do a lot more damage with heavy armor but its a little harder to tank or i could put stuff into the con and dex so i can tank a little bit more but with heavy armor the dex is pointless. now when you say the gw2 is more flexible like in dnd i have to say no its not. for the reson that in dnd i can play a war that can go with light or mid armor if i want and get a higher dex but in gw2 im stuck with heavy armor and i cant do anything about that so the flexabilty is not thare. now for stats yes its fleable but no becouse as a war being in heavy armor i need to have something that make me stand out from a light and in this game thare is nothing at all that make the war differ from a ele or mes. this is just stat wis with completly differnt armors. i want to see some realy big changes to this game if im ever going to come back becouse they have locked themself in a corner and have the holly trinity for raiding but they say they dont want the holly trinity but as the same time they do so they have no idea on were to go or how to fix thare game in. i think untill they fix this complet issue the game is going to be in this stat of not knowing were to go.

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