Lyssa's role and the gods' abandomnent

It's been remarked upon that Kormir said "even Lyssa" when talking about the decision of the gods to chain Balthazar, but when Balthazar himself curses the gods, he doesn't include her (and he has her mirror in the first place). It's been speculated that this suggests Lyssa may have a relationship of some sort with Balthazar.But what if actually she's running a long game? Kormir's needlessly cryptic remarks point at the gods leaving because otherwise this would inevitably lead to conflict with the dragons which would destroy the world, but on the other hand if any god could remain in Tyria undetected by said dragons it would be Lyssa herself. And she's the goddess of illusion and chaos; while it may look like she was allied with Balthazar in some way, it may be the case that she used him as a distraction of some sort for some reason, while she remained in Tyria, disguised (I've seen theories about how maybe she's Jennah or Anise, very powerful mesmers themselves).So I guess what I'm saying is, maybe she remained, and maybe she remained as a potential antagonist, who would be mad at Balthazar's death - but maybe she remained as a helper, or even a wildcard, unpredictable by nature. Although we haven't heard much about her, it does sound like her "style" to be wildcard-y and chaotic and unpredictable in just the right way.

Balthazar never listed the names of the gods. I also think that you’re reading too far into what was said about “even Lyssa”. That could mean anything or nothing at all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

For me it's simple, i smell a future plot being setting up. If so, I hope it's something more interesting than another renegade / villainous God. And even more something more interesting than her being someone in disguise, the latter is too much over used. A evil god disguised? wow what a surprise.

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Balthazar never listed the names of the gods. I also think that you’re reading too far into what was said about “even Lyssa”. That could mean anything or nothing at all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

He lists the gods at the end of PoF, Anet's confirmed leaving her name exempt is a deliberate choice in their AMA.

@Loesh.4697 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Balthazar never listed the names of the gods. I also think that you’re reading too far into what was said about “even Lyssa”. That could mean anything or nothing at all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

^ yeah he lists the gods when he's dying, with the exception of Lyssa, but I didn't know about it being a deliberate choice. Do you have a link to this AMA?

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:For me it's simple, i smell a future plot being setting up. If so, I hope it's something more interesting than another renegade / villainous God. And even more something more interesting than her being someone in disguise, the latter is too much over used. A evil god disguised? wow what a surprise.

Yeah, perhaps, but otoh it smells a bit of a "bereaved lover" plot and I would be real bitter about it, Lyssa is too interesting a potential character to just be a bereaved lover and yet another vengeful god :P

Queen Jennah is Lyssa.

@Loesh.4697 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Balthazar never listed the names of the gods. I also think that you’re reading too far into what was said about “even Lyssa”. That could mean anything or nothing at all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

I looked it up and saw the dialogue where he listed the names. Perhaps he didn’t curse her because she didn’t really want to strip him of his powers. I think it’s a wild reach to assume that she was colluding with him.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Balthazar never listed the names of the gods. I also think that you’re reading too far into what was said about “even Lyssa”. That could mean anything or nothing at all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

While i'm looking through WoodePotato vids for the AMA here. Lyssa's mirror isn't merely enchanted to be Lyssian, the human Mesmer is able to deduce that it has Lyssa's Sigils on it, somehow Balthazar got a relic of hers that had her signature on it. He might of stolen it, but the ways one could get a still functioning relic of the gods on Tyria are limited at best.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Balthazar never listed the names of the gods. I also think that you’re reading too far into what was said about “even Lyssa”. That could mean anything or nothing at all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

But Kormir said that Lyssa did in fact want to strip him of his powers, and the devs did say that the omission of her name was purposeful. Maybe she wasn't colluding with him, but it does seem like she's up to something. In fact, I would find it even more interesting if she were not colluding with him or with the gods at all and were instead playing some different game.

@James Orland.9786 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Balthazar never listed the names of the gods. I also think that you’re reading too far into what was said about “even Lyssa”. That could mean anything or nothing at all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

The whole "even Lyssa" quote implies that, originally, she did not want to imprison Balthazar, but felt there was no choice. I don't think she was colluding with him.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Balthazar never listed the names of the gods. I also think that you’re reading too far into what was said about “even Lyssa”. That could mean anything or nothing at all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

To be fair, though, it's a reach that our own characters make. It wouldn't be the first time that they've been wrong... but on the whole, when the PC makes a wild and unsubstantiated claim, they're correct more often than they have any right to be.

They did say ls4 was about resolving story debt. There is a chance this mystery might be resolved very soon.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Balthazar never listed the names of the gods. I also think that you’re reading too far into what was said about “even Lyssa”. That could mean anything or nothing at all.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth#In_the_Sanctum

Well he said he would spare Rytlock because he helped him escape the mists.

I think Balthazar is leaving Lyssa out of his curse. Rather then looking at each individual incident, look at the totality of the situation.

Lyssa’s Mirror.

Even Lyssa comment from Kormir, which is just strange.

No curse from Balthazar.

Seems like a lot more bread crumbing then the hints for Balthazar.

You can start throwing in Jennah/Lyssa theories in there too.

All her craziness from Edge of Destiny. Image of Kralkatorrik etc.

Giant purple Mesmer Barrier covering Divinity Reach.

Her display of power killing white mantle.

My personal favourite, that the gate we leave by to fight the mantle in Lake Doric in that same episode is Lyssa’s gate.

All coincidence... Maybe.

Admittedly, as time goes on it becomes harder to deny the connection between Lyssa and Jennah, if due to nothing else then the absurd level of power she has up to and including peering into the mind of a dragon.

@"James Orland.9786" said:It's been remarked upon that Kormir said "even Lyssa" when talking about the decision of the gods to chain Balthazar, but when Balthazar himself curses the gods, he doesn't include her (and he has her mirror in the first place). It's been speculated that this suggests Lyssa may have a relationship of some sort with Balthazar.But what if actually she's running a long game? Kormir's needlessly cryptic remarks point at the gods leaving because otherwise this would inevitably lead to conflict with the dragons which would destroy the world, but on the other hand if any god could remain in Tyria undetected by said dragons it would be Lyssa herself. And she's the goddess of illusion and chaos; while it may look like she was allied with Balthazar in some way, it may be the case that she used him as a distraction of some sort for some reason, while she remained in Tyria, disguised (I've seen theories about how maybe she's Jennah or Anise, very powerful mesmers themselves).So I guess what I'm saying is, maybe she remained, and maybe she remained as a potential antagonist, who would be mad at Balthazar's death - but maybe she remained as a helper, or even a wildcard, unpredictable by nature. Although we haven't heard much about her, it does sound like her "style" to be wildcard-y and chaotic and unpredictable in just the right way.

I even think that Queen Jenna and Countess Anise are Lyssa, given how Lyssa is usually depicted with two masks/faces and both of them being mesmers.

@Lahmia.2193 said:Queen Jennah is Lyssa.

I wouldn't even be mad. Many interesting ways to twist that one.

Let's go one further

Anise AND Jennah = Lyssa, since Lyssa is a being made of two

Lyssa mocking little laugh reminds me of Anise. But maybe that's just how they write human female Mesmer types, could be nothing.

On a sidenote, could we sit on all the ruler's thrones during the chair current event update? I know we couldn't sit on Queen Jennah's but I couldn't remember if we could sit on the others. I feel like I remember being able to sit on all of them except Jennah's.

And I still find it strange that she's always barefoot. But I've been shipping the Jennah + Anise = Lyssa theory for awhile now. lol

It definitely seems like they're dropping a lot of hints about Lyssa's involvement though. Starting with the mirror, and continuing through the latest with the ring that Joko for some reason left for the player with Lyssa's signet on it. Whether they intend on making something out of it or are just continuing to drop hints because Lyssa is the new Mr. E. that will be abandoned eventually who knows.

I'll be giving up all hope on ArenaNet's story telling ability when it comes to writing Gods if they make Lyssa a villain after all these hints.

What most forget is that Lyssa are twins. Lyss and Ilya. I always wondered about the two regions In Melchors Leap. One is named Valley of Lyss and the other Garden of Ilya. Why are the region not named after Lyssa? So can this be an indication that Lyss and Ilya act independantly? Why is a Balthazar statue in the Valley of Lyss? Has one of them helped Balthazar and the other didnt? Can one left with the rest of the gods and fool them and one is still around? I like the idea that Lyssa has split but all this stuff is probably coincidence. Anyway, I dont expect much from the story since PoF.

The theory Jenna's being Lyssa is too trivial to be true, not to say it would be ridiculous even worse than "evil balthazar", is better forget that.

But increasing the list of "coincidences."

what we already know.

• Balthazar and the mirror thing.
• that him didnt curse Lyssa.
• the "even Lyssa" dialogue.

like "@Nogothanc.5014" said, Lyssa is a twins, and

• theres a statue of Balthazar on _Valley of Lyss._

and i will add,

and the lake on Vabbi is named after Lyss, the specifically The Mirror of Lyss, it is intriguing that the Serpents Ire meta, the Pof "Dragon Stand" happens here, the big meta event of last map of the expansion.

and wait, wait, this thing on Ysshi Hessani hand, is a mirror os just a scepter?

@James Orland.9786 said:It's been remarked upon that Kormir said "even Lyssa" when talking about the decision of the gods to chain Balthazar, but when Balthazar himself curses the gods, he doesn't include her (and he has her mirror in the first place). It's been speculated that this suggests Lyssa may have a relationship of some sort with Balthazar.But what if actually she's running a long game? Kormir's needlessly cryptic remarks point at the gods leaving because otherwise this would inevitably lead to conflict with the dragons which would destroy the world, but on the other hand if any god could remain in Tyria undetected by said dragons it would be Lyssa herself. And she's the goddess of illusion and chaos; while it may look like she was allied with Balthazar in some way, it may be the case that she used him as a distraction of some sort for some reason, while she remained in Tyria, disguised (I've seen theories about how maybe she's Jennah or Anise, very powerful mesmers themselves).So I guess what I'm saying is, maybe she remained, and maybe she remained as a potential antagonist, who would be mad at Balthazar's death - but maybe she remained as a helper, or even a wildcard, unpredictable by nature. Although we haven't heard much about her, it does sound like her "style" to be wildcard-y and chaotic and unpredictable in just the right way.I don't think she remained. Kormir's Journal states that Lyssa left before she did, and I doubt even Lyssa's illusions can hide the fact she has an immense amount of magic from magic-sniffing world-ending eldritch creatures.

I'm also against the theory of Lyssa being in a relationship with Balthazar. Mainly because there's a lot of hints that there was a relationship between Lyssa and Abaddon; he had purposefully butchered Lyssan priests in NF via Varesh, he targeted her largest Elonian temple, both of which suggest a huge grudge, and Lyssa's Muse was the one who took the forefront of the speech to Kormir, rather than the avatar of the leader of the gods or the eldest of the gods (Dwayna and Melandru respectively) which is an odd choice unless there was a specific reason the gods (either Lyssa herself or the others) felt it was her duty to be the one to guide the heroes to killing Abaddon. On top of this, his Orrian temple had a ton of illusion defenses; for starters). Far more hints than between Lyssa and Balthazar. Though I guess the Lyssa twins could just have a thing for the bad boys...

@James Orland.9786 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:He lists the gods at the end of PoF, Anet's confirmed leaving her name exempt is a deliberate choice in their AMA.^ yeah he lists the gods when he's dying, with the exception of Lyssa, but I didn't know about it being a deliberate choice. Do you have a link to this AMA?Don't got it on hand but I recall that comment too.

Balthazar raided the reliquaries of the Six Gods, where they kept a bunch of artifacts. It's known that he pulled something out of his own reliquary, and had hidden the last aspect of Lazarus in Abaddon's. It wouldn't be unlikely for him to raid the other four reliquaries for objects, even if we never saw any first hand. This would be the perfect place for Balthazar to have gotten the mirror. Especially since the cinematic of his freedom shows him escaping to Tyria immediately after his freedom, without a mirror in hand.

@"Tyson.5160" said:You can start throwing in Jennah/Lyssa theories in there too.

All her craziness from Edge of Destiny. Image of Kralkatorrik etc.

Giant purple Mesmer Barrier covering Divinity Reach.

Her display of power killing white mantle.

My personal favourite, that the gate we leave by to fight the mantle in Lake Doric in that same episode is Lyssa’s gate.

All coincidence... Maybe.

Well, the Lyssa Plaza gate is 100% coincidence, I'm sure, given that it was always there and the original intended zone gate to Lake Doric which had no involvement with White Mantle or Jennah. They just reused an old gate, like they did with Fort Vandal in Season 2.

Jennah being Lyssa is a rather silly theory overall though, since people would have known of Jennah childhood (Anise is her childhood friend IIRC), and I doubt even a god - especially one indirectly stated to be bipolar - can maintain such an illusion for years upon years.

Jennah's always been stated to be an exceptionally strong mesmer, and to be honest, the stuff she pulls off is on par to the stuff that Kitah and Koro pulled off. They both created an entire illusionary army of thousands. The later even created an illusion the size of the Eye of the North (which is basically the size of an Elder Dragon). And those two were never stated to be an exceptionally strong mesmer.

The bubble Jennah amde over the city also has a blue hue to it on top of the purple hue, suggesting that it was magic placed by mesmers and guardians beforehand, and Jennah merely activated some magical artifact hidden within the city.

TL;DR: Jennah's actions as a mesmers are exceptional, but not unheard of for mere mortals.

And as for Anise as "the other half of Lyssa" - there's pretty heavy but subtle suggestions in One Path Ends (S3E6) that Anise is Livia's daughter. The shared red hair, and the hint of Anise's age dropped by Canach in S2, only furthers this.

@Loesh.4697 said:Admittedly, as time goes on it becomes harder to deny the connection between Lyssa and Jennah, if due to nothing else then the absurd level of power she has up to and including peering into the mind of a dragon.

Anyone can peer into the mind of an Elder Dragon. Few can survive. And not even Jennah was able to peer into the surface of an Elder Dragon's mind without damage. Remember that she immediately recoiled and her eyes were glassy after the effect.

It'd be more likely to believe Jennah was corrupted by Kralkatorrik at that moment, but it was only partial and she hides it through illusions. Would explain why she's so often sequestered away by the Shining Blade.

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:and i will add,

and the lake on Vabbi is named after Lyss, the specifically The Mirror of Lyss, it is intriguing that the Serpents Ire meta, the Pof "Dragon Stand" happens here, the big meta event of last map of the expansion.

The Mirror of Lyss is the home to the now destroyed Sebelkeh Basilica, the greatest temple of Lyssa in Elona. It was no doubt exceptionally magical, thus a prime target for an Elder Dragon like Kralkatorrik. And as we know from the temples in Orr and Artesian Waters, highly magical places are worth sending a dragon champion to defend for an Elder Dragon.

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:I'll be giving up all hope on ArenaNet's story telling ability when it comes to writing Gods if they make Lyssa a villain after all these hints.

I have doubts that the gods were ever good in the first place, they dumped humans on Tyria only to abandon them when the dragons show up, they're at the very least callous and don't even get me started on Kormir... Maybe I've just played too much pillars of eternity but I think Humanity and Tyria as a whole would be better off forgetting the gods.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:I'll be giving up all hope on ArenaNet's story telling ability when it comes to writing Gods if they make Lyssa a villain after all these hints.

Nah, what has forgetting the gods done for any Tyrian? It's reduced the Charr into an avaricious, bloodthirsty, despotic hereditary dynasty whose only contribution to Tyria comes in the form of periodic attempted genocides and slavery. The Norn aren't capable of organizing a decent society on their own, wandering from place to place with motivations and intentions that vary so wildly that they lack almost any unified coherence or morality. The Asura cannot, and will not, move beyond their limited view of the Eternal Alchemy as something to be examined in it's completeness and continually drive towards that singular focus with little regard to anything or anyone around them. Only the Sylvari are yet to be seen, and they haven't been around long enough to distance themselves from religion.

The Gods couldn't of really impacted our world post-dragon in any way that didn't risk destroying it, and beforehand they were the primary force that kept Tyria running like a smoothly oiled machine. Their ideas, beliefs, and structure have allowed humanity to become the only race that is genuinely heroic. Where every other race is a nominal hero, a villain protagonist, or anti-hero, humans genuinely believe in something greater then themselves and petty mortality. Without the gods, they would of slipped into the same moral degeneracy as everyone else.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:I'll be giving up all hope on ArenaNet's story telling ability when it comes to writing Gods if they make Lyssa a villain after all these hints.

Except they didn't outright abandon humans. They're looking for a new home for humanity, a safer home. And it sounds like that was the situation that drove the Six to bring humanity to Tyria in the first place too.