High uptime on Retaliation is passive gameplay

Some classes have very high uptime on retalation. Frankly, i often take more damage than I deal in team fights because of it. If a guardian, or whoever, is able to put up retaliation on the group, and i blurred frenzy, I do more than half of my health in damage to myself. And even if I cleanse just one target before doing it, and I dont see the others nearby have retaliation on them because i dont have them targeted at that moment, i deal a ton of damage to myself. Even one on one, if i happen to die and look at the damage sheet, the highest damage done is often retaliation.

If the highest damage done is retaliation, that is a very passive way to play. I think this game is trying to move away from passive play, so i believe it would be healthiest for the game to reduce the amount of uptime certain classes can have on retaliation. It is, imo, as passive as the old phantasm builds for mesmer.

TLDR: Classes with high uptime on retalation should have that uptime reduced considerably.

....What......What year is this?

And what is your opinion on "aura" (chaos armor, fire shield, frost aura, light aura, magnetic aura, shocking aura), aren't they the same passive gameplay that you loath? What about all those passive trait that proc?

The sPvP forum look like it returned to 2013 these day with "nerf necromancer's minion", "Nerf retal"... What's next? Nerf engi turret? Nerf confusion? Nerf stealth?

@"Dadnir.5038" said:And what is your opinion on "aura" (chaos armor, fire shield, frost aura, light aura, magnetic aura, shocking aura), aren't they the same passive gameplay that you loath? What about all those passive trait that proc?

The sPvP forum look like it returned to 2013 these day with "nerf necromancer's minion", "Nerf retal"... What's next? Nerf engi turret? Nerf confusion? Nerf stealth?

You forgot clone crowd, stun locks, 1500 snipes, perma evades etc....

If this was wvw I'd understand getting rekt by retal on ele (and maybe necro) due to lots of pulsing aoes. But pvp, especially as a mesmer? Please.

The only way a guardian can keep permanent retal up, is by running Zeal (which is a terrible trait line) while also running DH with the fragments of faith trap to get a lot of aegis procs.

Don't get me wrong, retal is strong. Especially vs GS power mirages. Nowhere near overpowered though.

As for core guard, the application of retal is very active. We have no passive application of it. Also, funny you would compare it to the old Chronomancer, since that build could stack literal minutes of retal. While core guard (which is built around retal) has close to 50% uptime.Get real homie.

@Odik.4587 said:Count how much damage mesmer take for 8 hits on 3 ppl with retal

With that logic I can say that ele always oneshots itself from retal because it hits 72 times.

Count how much damage is enemy doing to perma evade/invuln/stealth/block mesmer. Count how much damage mesmer does with gs2/ gs4 /sword 2 to those 3 people. Count how many times you actually hit those 3 people with 8-hit attack and how often they have retal.

There's a boon in this game which punishes spamming; a person who plays a build which spams out a lot of hits in a short amount of time complains about being punished for doing so on someone with that boon. This is not at all transparent, nope, not at all. Moreover, it's a boon. If you're having that much trouble with it on a class that has access to boon rip, then use that boon rip to give yourself an opening. I get that stripping an entire group isn't exactly feasible, but maybe you should take that guard popping aoe retaliation on the people around him as your cue to go find another target instead of just killing yourself.

As for the idea of an icd, slapping a 1sec icd on this boon would make it useless with respect to countering bursts of damage through multiple attacks, much like how no one cares about bursting someone with a fire aura. What's the worst that it can do in most cases? A 6sec burn assuming the target has some extra burn duration? Let's be generous and say it's 2 stacks of burning at 8sec each because your opponent maxed out burn duration and it took you over one second to get your burst off. Even with a 1200 power amulet, retaliation would be in an even worse position than fire aura because it would just hit once instead of applying a damaging condition.

In case anyone cares, here's some simple math I did to support my point.

One tick (out of four total without extra duration) from burning caused by a fire aura is 131 damage without any condi damage in one's build and 186 per tick with a 1200 condi damage stat amulet.

One tick of retaliation is 193 damage if the target is using a berserker amulet.

They heavily nerfed retal years ago anyway, because it could be truly overpowered in certain builds. Now there's a lot of options to play around or shrug it off.

The proposed solution for things like blurred frenzy has often been to reduce the number of hits.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@steki.1478 said:If this was wvw I'd understand getting rekt by retal on ele (and maybe necro) due to lots of pulsing aoes. But pvp, especially as a mesmer? Please.

Where you seen complaint from me? While I agree use frenzy offensively/defensively cost you nearly 6k hp because they had retal thats dumb (in fact you would take more damage and harm to yourself than them)And ye, why its hit 8 times while even PW hit 4 smh

@steki.1478 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Count how much damage mesmer take for 8 hits on 3 ppl with retal

If you came here to talk about wvw door there -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/categories/wvw

Nice complaint about mesmer greatsword while autoattack hit 3 times and most vulnerable to retal ,good job

why u even start crying about evade invul stealth blocks lmao xD

@Arkaile.5604 said:tldrOne tick of retaliation is 193 damage if the target is using a berserker amulet.

Meanwhile normal guardian retal damage 250-260 .

@Odik.4587 said:Well ,everything can be solved much easier . Slap 1 second icd .

The entire purpose of retaliation is to punish frequent attacks. But sure, let's make the boon useless!

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@steki.1478 said:If this was wvw I'd understand getting rekt by retal on ele (and maybe necro) due to lots of pulsing aoes. But pvp, especially as a mesmer? Please.

What kind of argument is that?You know how stupid it is to use defensive skill and use invul in same time? Does that even make sense in your head?

@Exedore.6320 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Well ,everything can be solved much easier . Slap 1 second icd .

The entire purpose of retaliation is to punish frequent attacks. But sure, let's make the boon useless!

Realistically only guardian benefit the most from retal and taking 20k + damage because he have retal (single boon rofl) is a bit dumb .OR very smart forum warriors suggest TO NOT hit anyone who have retal up,let them kill you eh ? And let guardian oneshot you instead ?1s is overkill indeed ,make like 0.5 per target would be somewhat fair but guardians would come here to cry :DI doubt retal its something you can use to 'punish frequent attacks' on demand,sounds like an excuse for not doding said 'frequent' attacks. Only guardian really activate it via virtues/heal and may be fb, dont rly remember what tomes do , i know there tons of resistance,prot and aegis spam.. Overall change frenzy to proper 4hits as PW was, would be reasonable change . At least not 6k damage through armor ...

@Odik.4587 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@steki.1478 said:If this was wvw I'd understand getting rekt by retal on ele (and maybe necro) due to lots of pulsing aoes. But pvp, especially as a mesmer? Please.

Probably a little less stupid than dying to retaliation.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:And what is your opinion on "aura" (chaos armor, fire shield, frost aura, light aura, magnetic aura, shocking aura), aren't they the same passive gameplay that you loath? What about all those passive trait that proc?

The sPvP forum look like it returned to 2013 these day with "nerf necromancer's minion", "Nerf retal"... What's next? Nerf engi turret? Nerf confusion? Nerf stealth?

The last one is still a big issue, but that's another story.

I'd be more worried about builds that can sustain 20+ stacks of might easily. This shouldn't be a thing in my opinion.

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:I'd be more worried about builds that can sustain 20+ stacks of might easily. This shouldn't be a thing in my opinion.

This.I grow accustomed to playing with a hefty dose of boon strip - in order to survive and thrive in duels/teamfights. Might stackers, stability spammers - sources of major headache for my favorite professions.

Retaliation is no big deal compared to some other boons. But, because of boons in general, you have tool to bupass/negate them - hence retaliation should not be an issue.

Retaliation isn't even remotely close to one of the big balance issues of GW2 right now.

It's poorly designed and doesn't do what it's intended to do, which is punish people for focusing a specific target ( Instead it just punishes specific niche abilities that hit multiple times ). It could be improved by changing it to just reflect 5% of all damage dealt with a maximum damage set at your power, which would neither be a buff nor a nerf just a change away from it being a "Build wars" issue. Retaliation dealing flat damage is pretty dumb.

But it's really not a high priority problem. If anything the retal spam is part of the larger problem that boonspam in general is too much reward for microscopically small player skill investment. Always has been and likely always will be.

I suppose every aspects of pvp and skills will have its own complain.

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@steki.1478 said:If this was wvw I'd understand getting rekt by retal on ele (and maybe necro) due to lots of pulsing aoes. But pvp, especially as a mesmer? Please.

Your comment is ,just like your suggestion . But what do I expect,thats forum ehe

@Nuka Cola.8520 said:I'd be more worried about builds that can sustain 20+ stacks of might easily. This shouldn't be a thing in my opinion.We had thread about it... Long time ago...Not like you dont know the way they balance things@Zaraki.5784 said:Nerf stealth? The last one is still a big issue, but that's another story.Yep , especially with their 'desync'@Master Ketsu.4569 said:clap Bravo , this dud gets it

@"Dadnir.5038" said:And what is your opinion on "aura" (chaos armor, fire shield, frost aura, light aura, magnetic aura, shocking aura), aren't they the same passive gameplay that you loath? What about all those passive trait that proc?

The sPvP forum look like it returned to 2013 these day with "nerf necromancer's minion", "Nerf retal"... What's next? Nerf engi turret? Nerf confusion? Nerf stealth?

Nerf stealth never went away, it's always been with us.

how about this

@"DragonFury.6243" said:how about this

Isn't there enough time in-between these 42 hits to realize you're killing yourself and disengage to heal?

@Airdive.2613 said:

@"DragonFury.6243" said:how about this

well base hp 15k so i did heal about to 100% no use

@Airdive.2613 said:

@"DragonFury.6243" said:how about this

What's just as funny as the 10k retal is the 35 ticks of burning. Skilled gameplay on a new level here.

How are we complaining about retal in 2018?

And now, a Haiku.

Engage enemyRetaliation killed meBoon rip is too hard

Hotfix 8/2/18: fixed a bug that was causing haiku to not have the proper 5-7-5 structure.