Holosmith and Spellbreaker sustain is far too high

The sustain of holosmith in particular is outrageous : it's a bunker with burst dmg while having perma protection/stability etc plus:

1) stealth -check2) 2x invulnerability - check3) short cd uninterruptable heal - check4) 800+ range leap for mobility - check5) dmg reduction utilities -check

Spellbreaker while not being as outrageous still sit in the same circle and it all comes down to engage photon forge and full counter , the CD on full counter should be doubled to 25s from 12s and photon forge should have a 20s CD, the game has become too trigger happy with no consequences...simple rotation and even the worst scrub becomes unkillable god...bad design

They are excellent in all aspects

Agree, at first I was expecting hyperbole but instead it's accurate. Holo is literally press everything off cd since they are so low any way. Yes yes yes you can time things blah blah, but there is no downside to missing holo 3->5 because it will be up again in no time at all. Same goes for spell breaker, the ONLY thing you even need to pay attention to against it is full counter. Terrible balance on both. Design is fine.

@Vicariuz.1605 said:Agree, at first I was expecting hyperbole but instead it's accurate. Holo is literally press everything off cd since they are so low any way. Yes yes yes you can time things blah blah, but there is no downside to missing holo 3->5 because it will be up again in no time at all. Same goes for spell breaker, the ONLY thing you even need to pay attention to against it is full counter. Terrible balance on both. Design is fine.

The only thing I don't agree with spell breaker is the fact that even if a random aoe hits you and fc procs but dodge the dmg or - the dmg does not hit anything then it should not also trigger adrenaline healing.

Agree, both Photon Forge and Full Counter need ATLEAST 15s cooldown.

First, let me say as a Holosmith main, it is a strong class and spec. It has decent sustain, reasonable condition removal and good damage. But I still feel your points about Holosmith are heavyhanded and come without full understanding. Permanent protection and stability? What are you even talking about?? Please explain to me which Holo build has both of those permanent boons, does good burst damage and doesn't die quickly? I'd love to play it.

Do you know how easily Holos succumb to pressure? Very, you must just not be pressuring them correctly. Rifle Holos are almost completely countered by revenants, and Sword/Shield holos succumb pretty easily to conditions.

I have been suggesting a few nerfs for a while, as long as other classes also receive nerfs (such as Rev burst damage, Warrior sustain, Weaver evades, ect), but I see things mentioned here that would kick Holo out of the meta and out of use entirely.

For example, the suggestion that forge should have a 20-second cooldown, that's insanity, and it means once per fight we'd be using our core mechanic, which defeats the purpose. Swapping to holoforge is what the build is based around, so how else would we remove conditions? Conditions alone would remove it from meta at that point.

My thought is other classes need to be buffed to be more well-rounded like Holo. Don't call for blind nerfs just because you don't play the class.

P.S. Just for historical reference, SBreaker was firmly in the meta a few patches ago (so maybe a year ago at this point?), until they upped the cooldown of FC to 15 seconds, and use of warrior dropped drastically. Changes that you're suggesting would do something similar.P.P.S. Holo already received some significant nerfs. Shaving is all that's needed at this point in time.

@Vicariuz.1605 said:Agree, at first I was expecting hyperbole but instead it's accurate. Holo is literally press everything off cd since they are so low any way. Yes yes yes you can time things blah blah, but there is no downside to missing holo 3->5 because it will be up again in no time at all. Same goes for spell breaker, the ONLY thing you even need to pay attention to against it is full counter. Terrible balance on both. Design is fine.

lol so you want the only thing that DEFINES the whole spec that is spellbreaker to be nerfed to the ground by doubling its cd, so you dont want to need to pay attention to anything your enemy does? wow great balancing idea from your side, pretty darn lazy tbh

go ahead, nerf it to 25 seconds, but then double every other defensive skill aswell, im looking at bandits defense, mesmer dodge/block shenanigans, guards block etc.

fullcounter blocks a single attack and after blocking has a 1/2 dodgeframe, damn son, lets take a look at bandits defense while we are at it. its a stunbreak, it blocks the next few attacks for 1 1/2s and after block gets a knockdown on a 20s cd with the posibility to reduce the cdand that skill is not spec defining...oh and knockdown is stronger than daze btwnow tell me again that it woud be fair to put fc to 25s while stuff like bandits defense existsembrace the powercreep and get nuked left and right because ppl were able to block stuff

again this is what defines the spellbreaker, there wouldnt be much of a reason to play sb, except in wvw zerging solely for winds of disenchantment, everywhere else id instantly go straight back to core warrior

@Mbelch.9028 said:First, let me say as a Holosmith main, it is a strong class and spec. It has decent sustain, reasonable condition removal and good damage. But I still feel your points about Holosmith are heavyhanded and come without full understanding. Permanent protection and stability? What are you even talking about?? Please explain to me which Holo build has both of those permanent boons, does good burst damage and doesn't die quickly? I'd love to play it.

Do you know how easily Holos succumb to pressure? Very, you must just not be pressuring them correctly. Rifle Holos are almost completely countered by revenants, and Sword/Shield holos succumb pretty easily to conditions.

I have been suggesting a few nerfs for a while, as long as other classes also receive nerfs (such as Rev burst damage, Warrior sustain, Weaver evades, ect), but I see things mentioned here that would kick Holo out of the meta and out of use entirely.

For example, the suggestion that forge should have a 20-second cooldown, that's insanity, and it means once per fight we'd be using our core mechanic, which defeats the purpose. Swapping to holoforge is what the build is based around, so how else would we remove conditions? Conditions alone would remove it from meta at that point.

My thought is other classes need to be buffed to be more well-rounded like Holo. Don't call for blind nerfs just because you don't play the class.

P.S. Just for historical reference, SBreaker was firmly in the meta a few patches ago (so maybe a year ago at this point?), until they upped the cooldown of FC to 15 seconds, and use of warrior dropped drastically. Changes that you're suggesting would do something similar.P.P.S. Holo already received some significant nerfs. Shaving is all that's needed at this point in time.

I see holo players jumping into any fight without second thought, that feeling of invincibility is what's wrong, nobody should feel like a god at every turn during all match, players tend to develop a rather unhealthy vision of gameplay.

Currently there are too many safety nets around holosmith too many get of jail for free and all is accessible with min level of skill investment...that's why holosmith is meta and herald and weaver are not.

You consider weaver sword something to be nerfed because...he dodges 2 more times than other builds and what after? Personally I simply bait Twist of faith ( their only stunbrak) than proceed to twoshot the ele easily : no double elixir S, no perma stability, no stealth, no dmg reduction...nothing that stops me from 2shot the ele. I dunno how an ele can give you troubles at all...almost everybody consider ele nothing more than an annoyance that can be easily dealt with when all other issues have been solved..but that's not the aim of this thread, feel free to make a thread and suggest to nerf weaver even further..but I doubt you'll find much audience

Going back to holosmith, I would suggest not to make any claim about other class sustain...because engi has quite a huge roster of traits that allow bunker sustain under any circumstance : burst or not; I didn't mention any sustain issue here, the problem lies with skills like holographic shockwave which is vastly OP and I still feel inclined to leave as that but at the very least we must have reduced access directly or indirectly.

We either increase its cd from 15s to 25s or increase CD of photon forge....and regardless of both they must remove the absurd radius that goes through wall , it's 100% absurd that a holosmith can hit while being on a completely different floor wtf really

Feeling of invincibility, ye, for sure. If you knew how quick a rev, reaper or even a condi mes can melt down a careless Holo you wouldn't write this. Also your description reads like it has 5 or 6 slot skills available (without elite and heal). Elixir S and and Spectrum Shield barely ever occur in the same build because Hard Light Arena and Photon Wall are pretty much autolock for the meta SD spec [with the conversion variant the same goes for arena and Thumper Turret]. I personally go even without either of them, prefering the on demand stab and quickness from Elixir U. The heal is also not uninterruptible and the only way to get an 800+ leap is picking rocket boots (even though it's technically a blast), which would take yet another slot skill. Holo leap has 600 range and is barely faster than normal running. Holographic shockwave is one of the best telegraphed spells in the game, therefore really easily avoided, similar as Chill to the Bone. Also its damage has already been significantly nerfed.

Holo is in a good spot but it's not performing much better than other meta builds. It's one of the best duelists, but doesnt have the 1vX capability of spellbreaker or the mobility of Mes and is still susceptible to Condi Pressure/corrupt and well timed bursts/cc locks, making it a very rewarding opponent to +1 for most roamers and still fairly easily suppressed by scourges in teamfights.

Against holos you need to play around their cds, similar to playing around the full counters of spellbreakers, and that's why bad players tend to struggle overproportionally with it. As a player with limited awareness, game knowledge and reactions it's probably easier to be effective as a holo than with most other classes, but once both players are on a decent level, most matchups become skill matchups for holos.

Sounds like an off meta build for capping, elixir s, elixir u and rocket boots with gadgets (1200 range). Just for mobility and a bit of stealth to proc lock on. I run a very similar build in Unranked for fun. All of the skills in photon forge require heat, the CC skill uses a lot of heat, can usually only do this once when go into forge so I doubt changing cool down would matter. I think most people agree the range on this skill could be reduced a bit though the damage in pvp on pf has already been nerfed pretty hard. The stab comes from corona burst skill 3. If it doesn’t hit then do not get stab. Dodge it and CC immediately, it also gives barrier and might. This is by far the most common skill to open with. Holo skills are extremely easy to telegraph, practically flash a neon sign before every attack.

Warrior used to be "land high casting times or die" minus shoutbow/hambow era. Pre-HoT was like where it was really a balanced point on Warrior, literally if you died to a Rampage Warrior, you either ran out of stun breaks (And you should be dead here, cause you'd be dead to Thief/Necro/Mesmer too) or you're just so bad at spamming/timing evades and counting a Warrior's dodge (They couldn't spam evades while attacking and baiting your CDs [Whirlwind was at an 8 second cd, so even if they had GS, which was braindead, then you're still bad if you can't land significant stuff on a Warrior] so counterpressuring a Warrior wasn't so bad. No full counter idiotic garbage, so it was VERY honest at this point and you were just legit bad if you were complaining about Warrior Pre-HoT), Warrior could find a way vs. all classes, all classes could find a way vs. Warrior, it was pretty balanced.

Spellbreaker is garbage in design, made Warrior a legit spam defensive maneuvers and made unblockables a MUST HAVE. Literally, Spellbreaker is just "time" full counter, can even spam it if you want cause that's how braindead it is. Instead of giving Warrior 3 weapon swaps for example, they give this and then ANET says "Warrior is a low skill cap character" when they're the ones who aren't creative enough to make Warrior not a brainless full counter class. Can't nerf this before the greater evils get nerfed first sadly, but that's how ANET balance things.

SB is just a lazy designed class and the developer who thought of this idea should be ashamed and is a low skill cap loser himself.

Holosmith is just LULLL DONT NEEDA LAND 1200 range grenades anymore. This game is trash, good job ANET making classes that were reasonable at some point in time actually anti-fun and easy to play.

Gotta love to bunker while invisible or invulnerable, makes capturing a lot easier.

the skills in photon forge need a cd increase, not the enter / exit photon forge.

My only issues with these two classes are the passive endure pain and passive elixer s.

I thought Anet wanted to remove passive game play, yet these two skills remain and they are the poster childs of brain dead, do nothing, passive traits.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Mbelch.9028 said:First, let me say as a Holosmith main, it is a strong class and spec. It has decent sustain, reasonable condition removal and good damage. But I still feel your points about Holosmith are heavyhanded and come without full understanding. Permanent protection and stability? What are you even talking about?? Please explain to me which Holo build has both of those permanent boons, does good burst damage and doesn't die quickly? I'd love to play it.

Do you know how easily Holos succumb to pressure? Very, you must just not be pressuring them correctly. Rifle Holos are almost completely countered by revenants, and Sword/Shield holos succumb pretty easily to conditions.

I have been suggesting a few nerfs for a while, as long as other classes also receive nerfs (such as Rev burst damage, Warrior sustain, Weaver evades, ect), but I see things mentioned here that would kick Holo out of the meta and out of use entirely.

For example, the suggestion that forge should have a 20-second cooldown, that's insanity, and it means once per fight we'd be using our core mechanic, which defeats the purpose. Swapping to holoforge is what the build is based around, so how else would we remove conditions? Conditions alone would remove it from meta at that point.

My thought is other classes need to be buffed to be more well-rounded like Holo. Don't call for blind nerfs just because you don't play the class.

P.S. Just for historical reference, SBreaker was firmly in the meta a few patches ago (so maybe a year ago at this point?), until they upped the cooldown of FC to 15 seconds, and use of warrior dropped drastically. Changes that you're suggesting would do something similar.P.P.S. Holo already received some significant nerfs. Shaving is all that's needed at this point in time.

I think Holo Shockwave could use some tuning. It's a very powerful CC that feels slightly unfair for the reasons you mentioned.

It looks like you ought to be able to avoid it by moving out of range, but you just can't. It's too fast to outrun, it goes on a LONG way, and it hits through walls and up/down cliffs. It's just a really frustrating skill.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Mbelch.9028 said:First, let me say as a Holosmith main, it is a strong class and spec. It has decent sustain, reasonable condition removal and good damage. But I still feel your points about Holosmith are heavyhanded and come without full understanding. Permanent protection and stability? What are you even talking about?? Please explain to me which Holo build has both of those permanent boons, does good burst damage and doesn't die quickly? I'd love to play it.

Do you know how easily Holos succumb to pressure? Very, you must just not be pressuring them correctly. Rifle Holos are almost completely countered by revenants, and Sword/Shield holos succumb pretty easily to conditions.

I have been suggesting a few nerfs for a while, as long as other classes also receive nerfs (such as Rev burst damage, Warrior sustain, Weaver evades, ect), but I see things mentioned here that would kick Holo out of the meta and out of use entirely.

For example, the suggestion that forge should have a 20-second cooldown, that's insanity, and it means once per fight we'd be using our core mechanic, which defeats the purpose. Swapping to holoforge is what the build is based around, so how else would we remove conditions? Conditions alone would remove it from meta at that point.

My thought is other classes need to be buffed to be more well-rounded like Holo. Don't call for blind nerfs just because you don't play the class.

P.S. Just for historical reference, SBreaker was firmly in the meta a few patches ago (so maybe a year ago at this point?), until they upped the cooldown of FC to 15 seconds, and use of warrior dropped drastically. Changes that you're suggesting would do something similar.P.P.S. Holo already received some significant nerfs. Shaving is all that's needed at this point in time.

lolwat

I get the feeling a lot of the people making the complaints haven't actually tried holo, or even know how it would be nerfed properly. Hint: It's called heat. Look it up.

I prefer to fight 100 times spellbreaker and holos and learning to dodge their main skills to deny them completely than fighting a braindead scourge camped in one cap who spam all the F skills without even knowing what he does, but you can't go melee and contest the point or you die. Not to mention spamming mirages as well.

@Arheundel.6451 said:The sustain of holosmith in particular is outrageous : it's a bunker with burst dmg while having perma protection/stability etc plus:

1) stealth -check2) 2x invulnerability - check3) short cd uninterruptable heal - check4) 800+ range leap for mobility - check5) dmg reduction utilities -check

Spellbreaker while not being as outrageous still sit in the same circle and it all comes down to engage photon forge and full counter , the CD on full counter should be doubled to 25s from 12s and photon forge should have a 20s CD, the game has become too trigger happy with no consequences...simple rotation and even the worst scrub becomes unkillable god...bad design

Isn’t it more like this:1) core engi skill2) core engi skill and forced alchemy line3) core engi skill4) okay..so? Small leap with swiftness (with vigor if traited)5) yes, when traited or using a skill slot with a 40 second cooldown.

@coro.3176 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Mbelch.9028 said:First, let me say as a Holosmith main, it is a strong class and spec. It has decent sustain, reasonable condition removal and good damage. But I still feel your points about Holosmith are heavyhanded and come without full understanding. Permanent protection and stability? What are you even talking about?? Please explain to me which Holo build has both of those permanent boons, does good burst damage and doesn't die quickly? I'd love to play it.

Do you know how easily Holos succumb to pressure? Very, you must just not be pressuring them correctly. Rifle Holos are almost completely countered by revenants, and Sword/Shield holos succumb pretty easily to conditions.

I have been suggesting a few nerfs for a while, as long as other classes also receive nerfs (such as Rev burst damage, Warrior sustain, Weaver evades, ect), but I see things mentioned here that would kick Holo out of the meta and out of use entirely.

For example, the suggestion that forge should have a 20-second cooldown, that's insanity, and it means once per fight we'd be using our core mechanic, which defeats the purpose. Swapping to holoforge is what the build is based around, so how else would we remove conditions? Conditions alone would remove it from meta at that point.

My thought is other classes need to be buffed to be more well-rounded like Holo. Don't call for blind nerfs just because you don't play the class.

P.S. Just for historical reference, SBreaker was firmly in the meta a few patches ago (so maybe a year ago at this point?), until they upped the cooldown of FC to 15 seconds, and use of warrior dropped drastically. Changes that you're suggesting would do something similar.P.P.S. Holo already received some significant nerfs. Shaving is all that's needed at this point in time.

You can dodge this easily. The animation is very telegraphed.

@Rysdude.3824 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:The sustain of holosmith in particular is outrageous : it's a bunker with burst dmg while having perma protection/stability etc plus:

1) stealth -check2) 2x invulnerability - check3) short cd uninterruptable heal - check4) 800+ range leap for mobility - check5) dmg reduction utilities -check

Spellbreaker while not being as outrageous still sit in the same circle and it all comes down to

engage photon forge and full counter

, the CD on full counter should be doubled to 25s from 12s and photon forge should have a 20s CD, the game has become too trigger happy with no consequences...simple rotation and even the worst scrub becomes unkillable god...bad design

4) Holo Leap is 450 travel distance 600 strike distance, he must be talking about Jump Shot/Rocket Boots, aka Core Engi

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Rysdude.3824 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:The sustain of holosmith in particular is outrageous : it's a bunker with burst dmg while having perma protection/stability etc plus:

1) stealth -check2) 2x invulnerability - check3) short cd uninterruptable heal - check4) 800+ range leap for mobility - check5) dmg reduction utilities -check

Spellbreaker while not being as outrageous still sit in the same circle and it all comes down to

engage photon forge and full counter

, the CD on full counter should be doubled to 25s from 12s and photon forge should have a 20s CD, the game has become too trigger happy with no consequences...simple rotation and even the worst scrub becomes unkillable god...bad design

Ah thanks for the correction. I misunderstood.

Shockwave needs a smaller radius and heat loss on dodge needs to be reworked into something else or heavily nerfed.

I have a feeling the op has never played a holo or even looked at the build.One well timed dodge of a massively telegraphed skill the the rotation is all but ruined.

Would also like to know why he thinks engis have have 4 trait lines and extra utility slots.

I don't have a problem with full counter because you can bait/deny it. IMO the real problem with spellbreaker is rousing resilience. If you're power, CCing a spellbreaker basically helps them more than it helps you, which is stupid. And you're not going to be able run through all their stunbreaks because they have 4 of them. They should reduce the duration and healing by half. Buff berserker/core warr to compensate

As for Holo - Corona burst + CCE is overtuned because it has 2 pulses. They changed it a while back so that stab is only applied if you hit the target, but spending a dodge on it is often pointless because a second pulse is coming anyways. They should remove the stab application from the second pulse or remove the second pulse altogether and double everything on the first pulse.

Spectrum Shield should absolutely not have it's CD reduced by 50% while above the heat threshold. It should be 25% at most. A 20s cooldown under easy-to-achieve circumstances is way too strong.

Elixir U was overbuffed for no reason. The duration of both stab/quickness need to be nerfed. Or remove the quickness altogether and give them back the projectile block. Extremely high quickness uptime Holos are really strong right now.

And who thought a 2s cooldown on Holo Leap was a good idea?

@alkaline.2938 said:I have a feeling the op has never played a holo or even looked at the build.One well timed dodge of a massively telegraphed skill the the rotation is all but ruined.

Would also like to know why he thinks engis have have 4 trait lines and extra utility slots.

Or why he every complaint he makes against utilities are core engineer abilities, not holo itself.

Or that engineer, alongside of necro, is one of the slowest classes in the game and cannot easily disengage from a fight without making sacrifices - thus it should be tankier than other classes to compensate.