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On elitism and stuff...


Omega.6801

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(The thread that I wanted to post this in was closed while writing, it's quite a wall of text to simply delete so I'll leave this here...)

K, time to write about elitism it seems...

1) In any game that uses numbers and calculations, there will be a "meta", a mathematically best way to achieve a goal given by the game. Now look at Raids: usually there's a timer and the boss has a given HP pool, this gives us the goal of doing X damage in Y amount of time as a group of 10 players. This goal can be achieved in many ways by many comps. You don't need a dedicated healer, you don't need the two chronos, you don't need to switch to the new hot max-dps build. But there will be a mathematically best way to overcome the challenge presented by the game. Dedicated players are usually pretty good at finding the optimal or best approach and since this is amobile game, information spreads fast. DPS meters, CMs, Raids themself have nothing to do with the existence of a meta in GW2. Before all that, even before Fractals there was Dungeon speedrunning, with everything we see today with Raids: the meta, the elitism, the number crunching, the skipping of mobs and mechanics. The DPS meters brought nothing to the community, that hasn't been there all along, there will always be a meta.

2) In GW2 the meta matters only in certain distinct portions of the game. By matter I mean that not playing some sort of optimized build will get you and everyone involved killed. Let's look at the challenges we find in GW2: Open World Solo play, World Bosses and Map-Metas, Personal Story, even Dungeons and non-CM Fractals can be done in almost every kind of setup. The challenges here still involve HP pools but either no timers(Dungeons, Story, OW soloplay) or the timer is almost impossible to fail(World Bosses and Map Metas might use some organizing or finding the right map but the amount of players usually makes the timer irrelevant). A meta exists in these aspects too, you will kill that Veteran Boar faster if you have dps gear and press a dps rotaion in full ascended, it just doesn't matter. As long as it doesn't kill you, you can play whatever you feel like. Raids and cm-Fractals are different, here your group needs to do a required amount of damage in a given amount of time. You just can't do them if your group doesn't match the requirements.

3) Most of the arguing goes on among two trains of thougt. One that says players should accomodate to the challenges of the game and one that says that the games challenges should accomodate to their players. The elitist thinks that everyone in his/her group should be at least his level and that everyone should know mechanics by now. The casual thinks that raids should be easier and more accesable. You can word these in many different ways. And as it is with many things the vast majority of players will have an opinion somewhere in between the extremes. Mostly it's a failure of comunication. We have the lfg tool, there's site dedicated to builds, we have a golem to test things, there's a community to talk to about things and ask questions. When you see a lfg and they ask for a given class that you don't know how to play, don't join them. On the other hand, if it's really important to your group that you're going for a fast and smooth kill, don't go for "all welcome" in your lfg.

4) I've seen and experienced toxicity from both ends of the spectrum between "git gud nab, l2p" and "Raids should be soloable content yet rewards should stay the same". Elitists think that they know everything and that their way is the only way to enjoy the game. Usually they look down an anyone who doesn't brag about benchmarks they broke or records they did. Casuals think that in the game everything should be possible for everyone, no challenge required to feel good or relax, they usually look down on the elitists as mindless rotabots, uncreative and uninspired hammering on the keyboard, tryharding to squeeze every second possible out of any given content. In my guild unfortunately, the casuals were by far more toxic than the ones who raided. Raiders offered advice in a polite manner, casuals replied with "don't teach me how to play, what, do think you're something better now?!". We tried to organize raids for a short while in the beginning but ppl were outright offended and angry as we asked the necros to run epidemic on a boss, "I don't like that skill, I'll use well of power instead or I leave".

5) I don't dig 'em both. I don't understand how elitist come to value a player only by its dps numbers or boon uptime, I'm far too social for that. But I don't get the entitlement of some of the more vocal extreme casuals either, hence my sig. I don't know how it is today if a player wants to start raiding. I kinda stumbled into a group where I taged along. I had given up on the armor at that point, but then I got involved, learned how to use a Druid and a Berserker for Raid purposes and went for it. There are ppl wiling to teach, they give their free time to do so. Find someone like this or a guild like this if you want to get into it, don't expect ppl to teach you in a random lfg, as long as they're not flaging their run as training there is no obligation to teach you anything and if you get kicked it's you fault for joining the wrong group.

6) Where elitism bothers me, but that might just be me, is t4+rec fractals. As stated above, sure, there is a meta for fractals and doing things faster means more loot per time. But t4+recs never required a Druid+Chrono+BS+2pDPS comp to do it in a reasonable amount of time. When I was active going for the optimal comp was almoste never a thing for me, sure I was happy when it happened but I never forced it. Nowadays the t4 lfg is full of optimal comp groups with one maybe none group open for "all welcome" or "know your kitten and all is well". Fractals t4 is much more about knowing the mechanics than it is about dps. Damage only comes into consideration when players want to skip mechanics or when it comes to concentration, the faster a fight is over the less time the boss has to kill you, I get that. But even if you skip mechanics and have a high dps output as a group, I always felt that what you won in terms of time, you lost in terms of enjoyment...while not gaining that much time imho.

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While this is an in depth (and somewhat lengthy) explanation of what Elitism is, it has existed in different forms over the course of this game and any other where people are playing together with a common goal. It may be more fueled by being in a rush (far be it for a game to take time to play rather than treat it like a job), or used as a means to feel superior to others (best build and best comp is best). As much as I love my druid, adding druid and chronomancer have made the matter worse and I feel we are too far down the rabbit hole for this ever to change.While you have the unique position of having your raiders being more polite than your casuals, based on my experience and from reading many posts on this subject, it tends to be the opposite. Raiders being overly aggressive or oppressive to force others to adhere to their time schedule, gear setup, trait lines or even profession choice etc. It is really disheartening that his has extended to fractals as well, but as you said, there were speed runs prior to the addition of raids. Even in a game like Warcraft, this phenomenon. also exists. You need X healers, Y tanks and Z dps. Based on encounter, one class may be excluded b/c of balance or mechanics they'll take a DK rather than a Warrior, a Druid rather than a Priest.It may seem seem like giving up on a problem that will never go away, but the only solution is to create your own groups with those that think the same way you do. That will have a bit more patience and understanding because you know that those 'elitists' are likely the same ones clearing raids and T4 fractals each week and are very very unlikely to change. For the rest of us, game play experience and/or is more important than rate of which you can gain loot.As for the Raid aspect, since you touched on it, I'm in the category of wishing AN would make an easier version of raids, not b/c of gear/difficulty but due to how much story content the average player is missing out on. Raids are the only content where players can be locked out of content by other players.

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The discussion about elitism in this game originated with dungeon speedfarming scene. Everything you will ever imagine as an argument, no matter which side you are, has already been spoken multiple times.

Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

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I dont think it is either one. For AN to fight toxicity is to either A. try to control player base (impossible) or B. keep evaluating the top performing professions and nerfing them to try to make every prof as viable as possible (eh.. i feel they try but their balancing is poor most of the time). Players will ALWAYS want more and harder content as their skills adjust to what is currently available. To say AN is doing this with some sort of malicious intent is an oversimplification if not outright incorrect. This is a problem created by players which can only be dealt with by players since its an attitude one.

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@Khailyn.6248 said:I dont think it is either one. For AN to fight toxicity is to either A. try to control player base (impossible) or B. keep evaluating the top performing professions and nerfing them to try to make every prof as viable as possible (eh.. i feel they try but their balancing is poor most of the time). Players will ALWAYS want more and harder content as their skills adjust to what is currently available. To say AN is doing this with some sort of malicious intent is an oversimplification if not outright incorrect. This is a problem created by players which can only be dealt with by players since its an attitude one.

For PvP Anet succesfuly removed any competitive toxicity from the mode by killing it literally. All that is left is typical farming scene toxicity that you can see anywhere in the game.

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I've little tolerance for elitism..I've always been a player who's LFG's contained 'All Welcome' but unfortuantely still encounted players of elitist nature.Those who join my groups and start complaining about other players with low AP or who are clearly not optimized for the dungeon/fractal instantly get on my nerves.All welcome means all welcome and the second someone attempts to kick another player for any other reason than that player being offline that player is not only getting kicked from the party but also becoming a permanent resident on my block list.

That said I thankfully havent had the displeasure of encountering the kind of toxic casual you talk about.. players completely unwilling to listen to advice even though they signed up to learn..I don't understand that kind of mindset but at least from my experiences I doubt it's a very common one.

All I really care about is enjoying the game and trying to ensure others do the same when they join my groups.. whether they be experienced players or total noobs.. it doesn't matter to me.. fun is the goal not rewards or trying to kill a certain enemy half a second faster than another group did..That's why I usually run a really tanky Necro in fractals and dungeons.. Necro's have superb potential as combat medics in Gw2 and I'd honestly say they are the best class in the game when it comes to helping downed players stay alive and getting them back on their feet.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Khailyn.6248 said:I dont think it is either one. For AN to fight toxicity is to either A. try to control player base (impossible) or B. keep evaluating the top performing professions and nerfing them to try to make every prof as viable as possible (eh.. i feel they try but their balancing is poor most of the time). Players will ALWAYS want more and harder content as their skills adjust to what is currently available. To say AN is doing this with some sort of malicious intent is an oversimplification if not outright incorrect. This is a problem created by players which can only be dealt with by players since its an attitude one.

For PvP Anet succesfuly removed any competitive toxicity from the mode by killing it literally. All that is left is typical farming scene toxicity that you can see anywhere in the game.

This is one area where you would know more about it than I , so I cant really argue with that. I stick to pve and dabble with wvw when necessary, I never pvp.

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I think people are just used to never meeting any type of crticism so once they try to get into content where things they do actually make a difference they get very defensive, creating a bad environment for people who just want to progress after being met with that pushback.

People need to stop being babies, both sides willing to take a step toward each other. If the (((elitists))) aren't willing to teach new people (that's fine, not everybody has to do that!) it's alright, but they shouldn't look down on worse people. At the same time the newbies shouldn't feel entitled to getting carried or getting an explanation a dozen times until they get it.

Elitism is this big, ominous boogieman that wipes the guilt (or in this case responsibility) of the people complaining about it

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The thing is the ideology is not what GW2 prorates for the outside. GW2 is spoken about as a "take your time" "enjoy the journey" "there is no rush" yet you find yourself in the end with the exact opposite, maybe its human nature.. but i do feel that ANET funnels you into one of a few routes: and it usually starts with acquiring Ascended gear - which is a grind what ever method you choose, and with grind comes finding the fastest method - to reduce the grind - You then tend to Fractals - Then raid, both require your build to be optimal... or wvw.. that by nature is a fastest first, and really a grind...

So i guess in conclusion we all join gw2 as its different from the norm, and we end up grinding like any other mmo.. its the grind that equates to trying to do things optimally with that come elitism.

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@"Teratus.2859"I feel like people also have different view on elitism. I see people saying elitism is killing mobs a second earlier than other group. For me, elitism is cancelling autoattacks, investing huge amounts of money to infusions, rushing every second, dealing with aftercasts and stuff. I personally have above 90% dps of benchmarks and for me that is more than enough for raiding. I don't feel like this is elitism, it is just optimalization above average for raiding i would be perfectly fine with like 75%+ dps on benchmark which isnt hard at all to achieve. And as you speak in seconds about this kind of elitism, you really should start speaking in minutes or tens of minutes difference between clearing something, which in raids is a real issue since you actually have timers and you literally cannot take everyone and go on easy run through raid.Yes some people are toxic in raids, but everywhere as well. I have tried to teach so many new people and very commonly i get opinion "When i have to change anything i just won't play it at all" and then they still try to get into raids and after getting kicked they start screaming like everyone else is at fault.

@"Blocki.4931" Has very good point. I feel like when most people hit a wall anywhere, they just give up and blame it on everything else but themselves. And to people who actually trained for hours to be ready for raids this behavior doesn't seem fair and it is not. "Why should you reap same fruit as me when i was practicing it for many hours and you just complained more?" That isn't fair and that's why people get upset.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

Neither. CMs are designed to appeal to a certain type of player. It has nothing at all to do with fighting or promoting toxicity, which is mostly about players with different preferences being unable to communicate those preferences effectively.

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@lokh.2695 said:5) I don't dig 'em both. I don't understand how elitist come to value a player only by its dps numbers or boon uptime, I'm far too social for that. But I don't get the entitlement of some of the more vocal extreme casuals either, hence my sig.

You're slipping into absolutes here.

Being elitist doesn't necessarily make you a jerk. You're talking about fractals. My elitism in fractals is pure self-preservation. I've been on both sides. Before fractal CMs were released I used to pug like most people did, without strict requirements. And it was hit-and-miss experience. Some groups were good, some were a wipefest. When CMs appeared I started seeking meta groups. At the start they were kind of needed. And I found out they were FAR more consistent. So I just don't want to subject myself to more wipefests. By being elitist I get a much more enjoyable experience overall.

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Personal opinion incoming:

The best way to combat elitism is to join a guild of like-minded people. I'm sure plenty of people have suggested this way before I have but it really does help.

Case in point: A week ago my guild and I did Aetherpath, probably the hardest dungeon in the game for most people. While there were suggested builds to use for the planned outing, anyone who signed up could use what they felt comfortable with. This wasn't a speedrun. It was done for people who didn't have the path for their Dungeon Master title (like me). I went in with a full Magi base Guardian with the role of healing everyone (my Healing Power was so high it was outhealing the damaged produced by the Clockheart's Overcharge ability). Sure, I got frustrated. Heck, we all got frustrated during the run (especially in the electrified room, Sparky & Slick, Clockheart, and Ooze rooms). However, we made sure no one person got too frustrated that things became a problem. We took time to take a break, calm down, and discuss new strategies as needed. Despite all of the trials, tribulations, and tension, we managed to complete the path in less than two hours and I (finally) got my Dungeon Master title.

I wouldn't have been able to do any of this with a PUG or a speedrunning guild because those don't mesh with my play style and mindset going into this game, which is more laid back and geared for open world PvE. In fact, I normally don't do higher end content because of elitism (not saying all PUGs and speedrunning guilds are elitist, by the way; however, based on observation and recognition of my own play style things would likely become toxic due to a mismatch of mindsets). However, the fact I'm in a guild that's more laid back and does do higher end content makes me more likely to want to join in.

If you can (and you should be able to if you look hard enough), find a guild that caters to your playstyle and your mind set. It really does make a difference in the long run.

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@Teratus.2859 said:I've little tolerance for elitism..I've always been a player who's LFG's contained 'All Welcome' but unfortuantely still encounted players of elitist nature.Those who join my groups and start complaining about other players with low AP or who are clearly not optimized for the dungeon/fractal instantly get on my nerves.All welcome means all welcome and the second someone attempts to kick another player for any other reason than that player being offline that player is not only getting kicked from the party but also becoming a permanent resident on my block list.

That said I thankfully havent had the displeasure of encountering the kind of toxic casual you talk about.. players completely unwilling to listen to advice even though they signed up to learn..I don't understand that kind of mindset but at least from my experiences I doubt it's a very common one.

All I really care about is enjoying the game and trying to ensure others do the same when they join my groups.. whether they be experienced players or total noobs.. it doesn't matter to me.. fun is the goal not rewards or trying to kill a certain enemy half a second faster than another group did..That's why I usually run a really tanky Necro in fractals and dungeons.. Necro's have superb potential as combat medics in Gw2 and I'd honestly say they are the best class in the game when it comes to helping downed players stay alive and getting them back on their feet.

@Teratus.2859 said:I've little tolerance for elitism..I've always been a player who's LFG's contained 'All Welcome' but unfortuantely still encounted players of elitist nature.Those who join my groups and start complaining about other players with low AP or who are clearly not optimized for the dungeon/fractal instantly get on my nerves.All welcome means all welcome and the second someone attempts to kick another player for any other reason than that player being offline that player is not only getting kicked from the party but also becoming a permanent resident on my block list.

That said I thankfully havent had the displeasure of encountering the kind of toxic casual you talk about.. players completely unwilling to listen to advice even though they signed up to learn..I don't understand that kind of mindset but at least from my experiences I doubt it's a very common one.

All I really care about is enjoying the game and trying to ensure others do the same when they join my groups.. whether they be experienced players or total noobs.. it doesn't matter to me.. fun is the goal not rewards or trying to kill a certain enemy half a second faster than another group did..That's why I usually run a really tanky Necro in fractals and dungeons.. Necro's have superb potential as combat medics in Gw2 and I'd honestly say they are the best class in the game when it comes to helping downed players stay alive and getting them back on their feet.

I agree with you. If you want all welcome fractals and someone complains about efficiency he can freele be kicked. He obviously doesnt belong there. On the other hand if you chose to do full meta efficient run then you can cick non-eficient players too.And I also agree that the goal is fun but everyone enjoy diferent things. For me having fun and tryharding is the same thing. One cannot be without the other.

And the reason why you find more elitist lfgs in raid section then anything goes is because most of the community that play raids want to either clear it fast and relatively safe (meta composition) or they enjoy tryharding (or both). We are not excluding anyone from raids. We will be happy for every new raider. That doesnt mean that I will accept everyone in my squad. Those nonexistent rules are actualy rules set up by most of raid comunity. They are not written anywhere but if you folow them you will have minimal problem with joining any group. If you dont want to folow them the only "penality" is that you might be kicked from squads more often.

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While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

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@"Raizel.8175" said:While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

What do people even what condi for right now? the only reason ive been able to do raids on my Condi Ranger is because its guild group for training newer players, and they still almost didnt bring me cause they had a deadeye who said they wanted to come(ended up not going).

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@"NicholaLord.2630" said:The thing is the ideology is not what GW2 prorates for the outside. GW2 is spoken about as a "take your time" "enjoy the journey" "there is no rush" yet you find yourself in the end with the exact opposite, maybe its human nature.. but i do feel that ANET funnels you into one of a few routes: and it usually starts with acquiring Ascended gear - which is a grind what ever method you choose, and with grind comes finding the fastest method - to reduce the grind - You then tend to Fractals - Then raid, both require your build to be optimal... or wvw.. that by nature is a fastest first, and really a grind...

So i guess in conclusion we all join gw2 as its different from the norm, and we end up grinding like any other mmo.. its the grind that equates to trying to do things optimally with that come elitism.

oh but it's even company standard today to rush things, look at LW3 and LW4, this content becomes unpopular so fast, you'd better play it fast on release or prepare for trouble when trying to complete achievements, so they basically don't care about their "journey", it's yet another marketing slogan people blindly believed in

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@"Raizel.8175" said:While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

If you look at balance patches, Anet balances the game taking meta as standard composition to look at. There is no room for diversity anymore, and wasn't there for a long time already.

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Raizel.8175" said:While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

If you look at balance patches, Anet balances the game taking meta as standard composition to look at. There is no room for diversity anymore, and wasn't there for a long time already.

There is quite a bunch of diversity, idk what gives you that impression? They nerfed overperformers and buffed underperformers for a while now and every single class has a place in every mode

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

Neither. CMs are designed to appeal to a certain type of player. It has nothing at all to do with fighting or promoting toxicity, which is mostly about players with different preferences being unable to communicate those preferences effectively.

Oh I forgot, their blessing to creating conflict and elitism is not just CMs and raids. Just look at current festival. Boss Blitz map chat is constant argue between players. This event design is in contradiction with anets marketing slogans about cooperation and positive community. Not to mention Queen's Gauntlet design, which is another contradiction to their other popular slogan "no more waiting to have fun".

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.(I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

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@"Raizel.8175" said:While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

lots of this^^

The powercreep, that can be either coming from balancing since the launch of HoT or from an increase in the players skill, certainly opened up many possibilities for different comps and builds. The dps number have risen since Raids have been released, the HP pool of the bosses have not(as far as I know). What is considered an ok'ish build today would have been meta 9 months ago.

The players opt to go for the best, the fastest, to go for the skip and that is actually something where ANet maybe could do something. But I know too little about the scripting of the raidbosses to say if unbreakable mechanics or making existing mechanics unbreakable would be possible, I doubt it. What the players can do is find a group that suits the kind of kill they want and be honest to themselves and others about it.

I kinda anticipated, that with the PoF elites, Anet would present alternatives to the set roles.

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Raizel.8175" said:While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

If you look at balance patches, Anet balances the game taking meta as standard composition to look at. There is no room for diversity anymore, and wasn't there for a long time already.

There is quite a bunch of diversity, idk what gives you that impression? They nerfed overperformers and buffed underperformers for a while now and every single class has a place in every mode

Is there?

Knockout argument: Chrono and Druid.

Even then, condi-classes aren't of much use in fractals and even in raid, you have discrimination between dps-classes. Then you have Necro which isn't desired anywhere. Sure, stuff has gotten slightly better in the dps-department after the last balance-patch, but it still isn't good. It still hasn't reached a point were I'd say "Yes, this game features a healthy degree of diversity".

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@"Sweal.4659" said:I feel like people also have different view on elitism. I see people saying elitism is killing mobs a second earlier than other group. For me, elitism is cancelling autoattacks, investing huge amounts of money to infusions, rushing every second, dealing with aftercasts and stuff. I personally have above 90% dps of benchmarks and for me that is more than enough for raiding. I don't feel like this is elitism, it is just optimalization above average for raiding i would be perfectly fine with like 75%+ dps on benchmark which isnt hard at all to achieve. And as you speak in seconds about this kind of elitism, you really should start speaking in minutes or tens of minutes difference between clearing something, which in raids is a real issue since you actually have timers and you literally cannot take everyone and go on easy run through raid.Yes some people are toxic in raids, but everywhere as well. I have tried to teach so many new people and very commonly i get opinion "When i have to change anything i just won't play it at all" and then they still try to get into raids and after getting kicked they start screaming like everyone else is at fault.

You missunderstand my post.I'm not talking about DPS benchmarks or playstyles or optimized builds being elitism..I'm talking specifically about the arrogance and toxicity of individual player behavior.. players who think themselves better than others because they prioratize those things into their playstyles and then use their benchmarks as some kind of justification for treating other players like dirt.Frankly I don't care if the elitist player is also doing the highest dps in the group.. if they start being a jerk to another player because they're not playing up to his standards then he can leave.That's elitism and that's what I won't tolerate in my groups which are always open to players regardless of their skill level or knowledge of the content.I'd rather carry a noob through a dungeon than deal with someone yelling in the chat to kick a player because his AP isn't high enough or he's using the wrong weapon etc.

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@Raizel.8175 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Raizel.8175 said:While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

If you look at balance patches, Anet balances the game taking meta as standard composition to look at. There is no room for diversity anymore, and wasn't there for a long time already.

There is quite a bunch of diversity, idk what gives you that impression? They nerfed overperformers and buffed underperformers for a while now and every single class has a place in every mode

Is there?

Knockout argument: Chrono and Druid.

Even then, condi-classes aren't of much use in fractals and even in raid, you have discrimination between dps-classes. Then you have Necro which isn't desired anywhere. Sure, stuff has gotten slightly better in the dps-department after the last balance-patch, but it still isn't good. It still hasn't reached a point were I'd say "Yes, this game features a healthy degree of diversity".

Leaves you with 8 spots to fill. People shit on Rev for months, but at this point it climbed to top DPS spot for many encounters. If you look for supports, many classes can fill the spot. You have multiple classes filling a condi DPS role.. yeah, I'd call that diversity. Some are better than others, but most of them are still VERY playable.

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