On elitism and stuff... — Guild Wars 2 Forums

On elitism and stuff...

lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited August 1, 2018 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

(The thread that I wanted to post this in was closed while writing, it's quite a wall of text to simply delete so I'll leave this here...)

K, time to write about elitism it seems...

1) In any game that uses numbers and calculations, there will be a "meta", a mathematically best way to achieve a goal given by the game. Now look at Raids: usually there's a timer and the boss has a given HP pool, this gives us the goal of doing X damage in Y amount of time as a group of 10 players. This goal can be achieved in many ways by many comps. You don't need a dedicated healer, you don't need the two chronos, you don't need to switch to the new hot max-dps build. But there will be a mathematically best way to overcome the challenge presented by the game. Dedicated players are usually pretty good at finding the optimal or best approach and since this is amobile game, information spreads fast. DPS meters, CMs, Raids themself have nothing to do with the existence of a meta in GW2. Before all that, even before Fractals there was Dungeon speedrunning, with everything we see today with Raids: the meta, the elitism, the number crunching, the skipping of mobs and mechanics. The DPS meters brought nothing to the community, that hasn't been there all along, there will always be a meta.

2) In GW2 the meta matters only in certain distinct portions of the game. By matter I mean that not playing some sort of optimized build will get you and everyone involved killed. Let's look at the challenges we find in GW2: Open World Solo play, World Bosses and Map-Metas, Personal Story, even Dungeons and non-CM Fractals can be done in almost every kind of setup. The challenges here still involve HP pools but either no timers(Dungeons, Story, OW soloplay) or the timer is almost impossible to fail(World Bosses and Map Metas might use some organizing or finding the right map but the amount of players usually makes the timer irrelevant). A meta exists in these aspects too, you will kill that Veteran Boar faster if you have dps gear and press a dps rotaion in full ascended, it just doesn't matter. As long as it doesn't kill you, you can play whatever you feel like. Raids and cm-Fractals are different, here your group needs to do a required amount of damage in a given amount of time. You just can't do them if your group doesn't match the requirements.

3) Most of the arguing goes on among two trains of thougt. One that says players should accomodate to the challenges of the game and one that says that the games challenges should accomodate to their players. The elitist thinks that everyone in his/her group should be at least his level and that everyone should know mechanics by now. The casual thinks that raids should be easier and more accesable. You can word these in many different ways. And as it is with many things the vast majority of players will have an opinion somewhere in between the extremes. Mostly it's a failure of comunication. We have the lfg tool, there's site dedicated to builds, we have a golem to test things, there's a community to talk to about things and ask questions. When you see a lfg and they ask for a given class that you don't know how to play, don't join them. On the other hand, if it's really important to your group that you're going for a fast and smooth kill, don't go for "all welcome" in your lfg.

4) I've seen and experienced toxicity from both ends of the spectrum between "git gud nab, l2p" and "Raids should be soloable content yet rewards should stay the same". Elitists think that they know everything and that their way is the only way to enjoy the game. Usually they look down an anyone who doesn't brag about benchmarks they broke or records they did. Casuals think that in the game everything should be possible for everyone, no challenge required to feel good or relax, they usually look down on the elitists as mindless rotabots, uncreative and uninspired hammering on the keyboard, tryharding to squeeze every second possible out of any given content. In my guild unfortunately, the casuals were by far more toxic than the ones who raided. Raiders offered advice in a polite manner, casuals replied with "don't teach me how to play, what, do think you're something better now?!". We tried to organize raids for a short while in the beginning but ppl were outright offended and angry as we asked the necros to run epidemic on a boss, "I don't like that skill, I'll use well of power instead or I leave".

5) I don't dig 'em both. I don't understand how elitist come to value a player only by its dps numbers or boon uptime, I'm far too social for that. But I don't get the entitlement of some of the more vocal extreme casuals either, hence my sig. I don't know how it is today if a player wants to start raiding. I kinda stumbled into a group where I taged along. I had given up on the armor at that point, but then I got involved, learned how to use a Druid and a Berserker for Raid purposes and went for it. There are ppl wiling to teach, they give their free time to do so. Find someone like this or a guild like this if you want to get into it, don't expect ppl to teach you in a random lfg, as long as they're not flaging their run as training there is no obligation to teach you anything and if you get kicked it's you fault for joining the wrong group.

6) Where elitism bothers me, but that might just be me, is t4+rec fractals. As stated above, sure, there is a meta for fractals and doing things faster means more loot per time. But t4+recs never required a Druid+Chrono+BS+2pDPS comp to do it in a reasonable amount of time. When I was active going for the optimal comp was almoste never a thing for me, sure I was happy when it happened but I never forced it. Nowadays the t4 lfg is full of optimal comp groups with one maybe none group open for "all welcome" or "know your kitten and all is well". Fractals t4 is much more about knowing the mechanics than it is about dps. Damage only comes into consideration when players want to skip mechanics or when it comes to concentration, the faster a fight is over the less time the boss has to kill you, I get that. But even if you skip mechanics and have a high dps output as a group, I always felt that what you won in terms of time, you lost in terms of enjoyment...while not gaining that much time imho.

If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes

<13

Comments

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭

    While this is an in depth (and somewhat lengthy) explanation of what Elitism is, it has existed in different forms over the course of this game and any other where people are playing together with a common goal. It may be more fueled by being in a rush (far be it for a game to take time to play rather than treat it like a job), or used as a means to feel superior to others (best build and best comp is best). As much as I love my druid, adding druid and chronomancer have made the matter worse and I feel we are too far down the rabbit hole for this ever to change.
    While you have the unique position of having your raiders being more polite than your casuals, based on my experience and from reading many posts on this subject, it tends to be the opposite. Raiders being overly aggressive or oppressive to force others to adhere to their time schedule, gear setup, trait lines or even profession choice etc. It is really disheartening that his has extended to fractals as well, but as you said, there were speed runs prior to the addition of raids. Even in a game like Warcraft, this phenomenon. also exists. You need X healers, Y tanks and Z dps. Based on encounter, one class may be excluded b/c of balance or mechanics they'll take a DK rather than a Warrior, a Druid rather than a Priest.
    It may seem seem like giving up on a problem that will never go away, but the only solution is to create your own groups with those that think the same way you do. That will have a bit more patience and understanding because you know that those 'elitists' are likely the same ones clearing raids and T4 fractals each week and are very very unlikely to change. For the rest of us, game play experience and/or is more important than rate of which you can gain loot.
    As for the Raid aspect, since you touched on it, I'm in the category of wishing AN would make an easier version of raids, not b/c of gear/difficulty but due to how much story content the average player is missing out on. Raids are the only content where players can be locked out of content by other players.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khailyn.6248 said:
    I dont think it is either one. For AN to fight toxicity is to either A. try to control player base (impossible) or B. keep evaluating the top performing professions and nerfing them to try to make every prof as viable as possible (eh.. i feel they try but their balancing is poor most of the time). Players will ALWAYS want more and harder content as their skills adjust to what is currently available. To say AN is doing this with some sort of malicious intent is an oversimplification if not outright incorrect. This is a problem created by players which can only be dealt with by players since its an attitude one.

    For PvP Anet succesfuly removed any competitive toxicity from the mode by killing it literally. All that is left is typical farming scene toxicity that you can see anywhere in the game.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've little tolerance for elitism..
    I've always been a player who's LFG's contained 'All Welcome' but unfortuantely still encounted players of elitist nature.
    Those who join my groups and start complaining about other players with low AP or who are clearly not optimized for the dungeon/fractal instantly get on my nerves.
    All welcome means all welcome and the second someone attempts to kick another player for any other reason than that player being offline that player is not only getting kicked from the party but also becoming a permanent resident on my block list.

    That said I thankfully havent had the displeasure of encountering the kind of toxic casual you talk about.. players completely unwilling to listen to advice even though they signed up to learn..
    I don't understand that kind of mindset but at least from my experiences I doubt it's a very common one.

    All I really care about is enjoying the game and trying to ensure others do the same when they join my groups.. whether they be experienced players or total noobs.. it doesn't matter to me.. fun is the goal not rewards or trying to kill a certain enemy half a second faster than another group did..
    That's why I usually run a really tanky Necro in fractals and dungeons.. Necro's have superb potential as combat medics in Gw2 and I'd honestly say they are the best class in the game when it comes to helping downed players stay alive and getting them back on their feet.

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:
    I dont think it is either one. For AN to fight toxicity is to either A. try to control player base (impossible) or B. keep evaluating the top performing professions and nerfing them to try to make every prof as viable as possible (eh.. i feel they try but their balancing is poor most of the time). Players will ALWAYS want more and harder content as their skills adjust to what is currently available. To say AN is doing this with some sort of malicious intent is an oversimplification if not outright incorrect. This is a problem created by players which can only be dealt with by players since its an attitude one.

    For PvP Anet succesfuly removed any competitive toxicity from the mode by killing it literally. All that is left is typical farming scene toxicity that you can see anywhere in the game.

    This is one area where you would know more about it than I , so I cant really argue with that. I stick to pve and dabble with wvw when necessary, I never pvp.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2018

    I think people are just used to never meeting any type of crticism so once they try to get into content where things they do actually make a difference they get very defensive, creating a bad environment for people who just want to progress after being met with that pushback.

    People need to stop being babies, both sides willing to take a step toward each other. If the (((elitists))) aren't willing to teach new people (that's fine, not everybody has to do that!) it's alright, but they shouldn't look down on worse people. At the same time the newbies shouldn't feel entitled to getting carried or getting an explanation a dozen times until they get it.

    Elitism is this big, ominous boogieman that wipes the guilt (or in this case responsibility) of the people complaining about it

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • NicholaLord.2630NicholaLord.2630 Member ✭✭✭

    The thing is the ideology is not what GW2 prorates for the outside. GW2 is spoken about as a "take your time" "enjoy the journey" "there is no rush" yet you find yourself in the end with the exact opposite, maybe its human nature.. but i do feel that ANET funnels you into one of a few routes: and it usually starts with acquiring Ascended gear - which is a grind what ever method you choose, and with grind comes finding the fastest method - to reduce the grind - You then tend to Fractals - Then raid, both require your build to be optimal... or wvw.. that by nature is a fastest first, and really a grind...

    So i guess in conclusion we all join gw2 as its different from the norm, and we end up grinding like any other mmo.. its the grind that equates to trying to do things optimally with that come elitism.

  • Sweal.4659Sweal.4659 Member ✭✭
    edited August 1, 2018

    @Teratus.2859
    I feel like people also have different view on elitism. I see people saying elitism is killing mobs a second earlier than other group. For me, elitism is cancelling autoattacks, investing huge amounts of money to infusions, rushing every second, dealing with aftercasts and stuff. I personally have above 90% dps of benchmarks and for me that is more than enough for raiding. I don't feel like this is elitism, it is just optimalization above average for raiding i would be perfectly fine with like 75%+ dps on benchmark which isnt hard at all to achieve. And as you speak in seconds about this kind of elitism, you really should start speaking in minutes or tens of minutes difference between clearing something, which in raids is a real issue since you actually have timers and you literally cannot take everyone and go on easy run through raid.
    Yes some people are toxic in raids, but everywhere as well. I have tried to teach so many new people and very commonly i get opinion "When i have to change anything i just won't play it at all" and then they still try to get into raids and after getting kicked they start screaming like everyone else is at fault.

    @Blocki.4931 Has very good point. I feel like when most people hit a wall anywhere, they just give up and blame it on everything else but themselves. And to people who actually trained for hours to be ready for raids this behavior doesn't seem fair and it is not. "Why should you reap same fruit as me when i was practicing it for many hours and you just complained more?" That isn't fair and that's why people get upset.

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Neither. CMs are designed to appeal to a certain type of player. It has nothing at all to do with fighting or promoting toxicity, which is mostly about players with different preferences being unable to communicate those preferences effectively.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:
    5) I don't dig 'em both. I don't understand how elitist come to value a player only by its dps numbers or boon uptime, I'm far too social for that. But I don't get the entitlement of some of the more vocal extreme casuals either, hence my sig.

    You're slipping into absolutes here.

    Being elitist doesn't necessarily make you a jerk. You're talking about fractals. My elitism in fractals is pure self-preservation. I've been on both sides. Before fractal CMs were released I used to pug like most people did, without strict requirements. And it was hit-and-miss experience. Some groups were good, some were a wipefest. When CMs appeared I started seeking meta groups. At the start they were kind of needed. And I found out they were FAR more consistent. So I just don't want to subject myself to more wipefests. By being elitist I get a much more enjoyable experience overall.

  • TheOrlyFactor.8341TheOrlyFactor.8341 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personal opinion incoming:

    The best way to combat elitism is to join a guild of like-minded people. I'm sure plenty of people have suggested this way before I have but it really does help.

    Case in point: A week ago my guild and I did Aetherpath, probably the hardest dungeon in the game for most people. While there were suggested builds to use for the planned outing, anyone who signed up could use what they felt comfortable with. This wasn't a speedrun. It was done for people who didn't have the path for their Dungeon Master title (like me). I went in with a full Magi base Guardian with the role of healing everyone (my Healing Power was so high it was outhealing the damaged produced by the Clockheart's Overcharge ability). Sure, I got frustrated. Heck, we all got frustrated during the run (especially in the electrified room, Sparky & Slick, Clockheart, and Ooze rooms). However, we made sure no one person got too frustrated that things became a problem. We took time to take a break, calm down, and discuss new strategies as needed. Despite all of the trials, tribulations, and tension, we managed to complete the path in less than two hours and I (finally) got my Dungeon Master title.

    I wouldn't have been able to do any of this with a PUG or a speedrunning guild because those don't mesh with my play style and mindset going into this game, which is more laid back and geared for open world PvE. In fact, I normally don't do higher end content because of elitism (not saying all PUGs and speedrunning guilds are elitist, by the way; however, based on observation and recognition of my own play style things would likely become toxic due to a mismatch of mindsets). However, the fact I'm in a guild that's more laid back and does do higher end content makes me more likely to want to join in.

    If you can (and you should be able to if you look hard enough), find a guild that caters to your playstyle and your mind set. It really does make a difference in the long run.

    Asura fanatic.
    World's largest Zojja fan.
    Illconceived Was Na fanboy.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've little tolerance for elitism..
    I've always been a player who's LFG's contained 'All Welcome' but unfortuantely still encounted players of elitist nature.
    Those who join my groups and start complaining about other players with low AP or who are clearly not optimized for the dungeon/fractal instantly get on my nerves.
    All welcome means all welcome and the second someone attempts to kick another player for any other reason than that player being offline that player is not only getting kicked from the party but also becoming a permanent resident on my block list.

    That said I thankfully havent had the displeasure of encountering the kind of toxic casual you talk about.. players completely unwilling to listen to advice even though they signed up to learn..
    I don't understand that kind of mindset but at least from my experiences I doubt it's a very common one.

    All I really care about is enjoying the game and trying to ensure others do the same when they join my groups.. whether they be experienced players or total noobs.. it doesn't matter to me.. fun is the goal not rewards or trying to kill a certain enemy half a second faster than another group did..
    That's why I usually run a really tanky Necro in fractals and dungeons.. Necro's have superb potential as combat medics in Gw2 and I'd honestly say they are the best class in the game when it comes to helping downed players stay alive and getting them back on their feet.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I've little tolerance for elitism..
    I've always been a player who's LFG's contained 'All Welcome' but unfortuantely still encounted players of elitist nature.
    Those who join my groups and start complaining about other players with low AP or who are clearly not optimized for the dungeon/fractal instantly get on my nerves.
    All welcome means all welcome and the second someone attempts to kick another player for any other reason than that player being offline that player is not only getting kicked from the party but also becoming a permanent resident on my block list.

    That said I thankfully havent had the displeasure of encountering the kind of toxic casual you talk about.. players completely unwilling to listen to advice even though they signed up to learn..
    I don't understand that kind of mindset but at least from my experiences I doubt it's a very common one.

    All I really care about is enjoying the game and trying to ensure others do the same when they join my groups.. whether they be experienced players or total noobs.. it doesn't matter to me.. fun is the goal not rewards or trying to kill a certain enemy half a second faster than another group did..
    That's why I usually run a really tanky Necro in fractals and dungeons.. Necro's have superb potential as combat medics in Gw2 and I'd honestly say they are the best class in the game when it comes to helping downed players stay alive and getting them back on their feet.

    I agree with you. If you want all welcome fractals and someone complains about efficiency he can freele be kicked. He obviously doesnt belong there. On the other hand if you chose to do full meta efficient run then you can cick non-eficient players too.
    And I also agree that the goal is fun but everyone enjoy diferent things. For me having fun and tryharding is the same thing. One cannot be without the other.

    And the reason why you find more elitist lfgs in raid section then anything goes is because most of the community that play raids want to either clear it fast and relatively safe (meta composition) or they enjoy tryharding (or both). We are not excluding anyone from raids. We will be happy for every new raider. That doesnt mean that I will accept everyone in my squad. Those nonexistent rules are actualy rules set up by most of raid comunity. They are not written anywhere but if you folow them you will have minimal problem with joining any group. If you dont want to folow them the only "penality" is that you might be kicked from squads more often.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

    Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

    What do people even what condi for right now? the only reason ive been able to do raids on my Condi Ranger is because its guild group for training newer players, and they still almost didnt bring me cause they had a deadeye who said they wanted to come(ended up not going).

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NicholaLord.2630 said:
    The thing is the ideology is not what GW2 prorates for the outside. GW2 is spoken about as a "take your time" "enjoy the journey" "there is no rush" yet you find yourself in the end with the exact opposite, maybe its human nature.. but i do feel that ANET funnels you into one of a few routes: and it usually starts with acquiring Ascended gear - which is a grind what ever method you choose, and with grind comes finding the fastest method - to reduce the grind - You then tend to Fractals - Then raid, both require your build to be optimal... or wvw.. that by nature is a fastest first, and really a grind...

    So i guess in conclusion we all join gw2 as its different from the norm, and we end up grinding like any other mmo.. its the grind that equates to trying to do things optimally with that come elitism.

    oh but it's even company standard today to rush things, look at LW3 and LW4, this content becomes unpopular so fast, you'd better play it fast on release or prepare for trouble when trying to complete achievements, so they basically don't care about their "journey", it's yet another marketing slogan people blindly believed in

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

    Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

    If you look at balance patches, Anet balances the game taking meta as standard composition to look at. There is no room for diversity anymore, and wasn't there for a long time already.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Neither. CMs are designed to appeal to a certain type of player. It has nothing at all to do with fighting or promoting toxicity, which is mostly about players with different preferences being unable to communicate those preferences effectively.

    Oh I forgot, their blessing to creating conflict and elitism is not just CMs and raids. Just look at current festival. Boss Blitz map chat is constant argue between players. This event design is in contradiction with anets marketing slogans about cooperation and positive community. Not to mention Queen's Gauntlet design, which is another contradiction to their other popular slogan "no more waiting to have fun".

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
    Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
    Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

    Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

    lots of this^^

    The powercreep, that can be either coming from balancing since the launch of HoT or from an increase in the players skill, certainly opened up many possibilities for different comps and builds. The dps number have risen since Raids have been released, the HP pool of the bosses have not(as far as I know). What is considered an ok'ish build today would have been meta 9 months ago.

    The players opt to go for the best, the fastest, to go for the skip and that is actually something where ANet maybe could do something. But I know too little about the scripting of the raidbosses to say if unbreakable mechanics or making existing mechanics unbreakable would be possible, I doubt it. What the players can do is find a group that suits the kind of kill they want and be honest to themselves and others about it.

    I kinda anticipated, that with the PoF elites, Anet would present alternatives to the set roles.

    If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
    Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
    Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

    Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

    If you look at balance patches, Anet balances the game taking meta as standard composition to look at. There is no room for diversity anymore, and wasn't there for a long time already.

    There is quite a bunch of diversity, idk what gives you that impression? They nerfed overperformers and buffed underperformers for a while now and every single class has a place in every mode

    Is there?

    Knockout argument: Chrono and Druid.

    Even then, condi-classes aren't of much use in fractals and even in raid, you have discrimination between dps-classes. Then you have Necro which isn't desired anywhere. Sure, stuff has gotten slightly better in the dps-department after the last balance-patch, but it still isn't good. It still hasn't reached a point were I'd say "Yes, this game features a healthy degree of diversity".

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sweal.4659 said:
    I feel like people also have different view on elitism. I see people saying elitism is killing mobs a second earlier than other group. For me, elitism is cancelling autoattacks, investing huge amounts of money to infusions, rushing every second, dealing with aftercasts and stuff. I personally have above 90% dps of benchmarks and for me that is more than enough for raiding. I don't feel like this is elitism, it is just optimalization above average for raiding i would be perfectly fine with like 75%+ dps on benchmark which isnt hard at all to achieve. And as you speak in seconds about this kind of elitism, you really should start speaking in minutes or tens of minutes difference between clearing something, which in raids is a real issue since you actually have timers and you literally cannot take everyone and go on easy run through raid.
    Yes some people are toxic in raids, but everywhere as well. I have tried to teach so many new people and very commonly i get opinion "When i have to change anything i just won't play it at all" and then they still try to get into raids and after getting kicked they start screaming like everyone else is at fault.

    You missunderstand my post.
    I'm not talking about DPS benchmarks or playstyles or optimized builds being elitism..
    I'm talking specifically about the arrogance and toxicity of individual player behavior.. players who think themselves better than others because they prioratize those things into their playstyles and then use their benchmarks as some kind of justification for treating other players like dirt.
    Frankly I don't care if the elitist player is also doing the highest dps in the group.. if they start being a jerk to another player because they're not playing up to his standards then he can leave.
    That's elitism and that's what I won't tolerate in my groups which are always open to players regardless of their skill level or knowledge of the content.
    I'd rather carry a noob through a dungeon than deal with someone yelling in the chat to kick a player because his AP isn't high enough or he's using the wrong weapon etc.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    While I appreciate the thought behind the deleted thread, it still was too narrow-minded. The meta-slavery this game offers is toxic and unreasonable. People far too often forget that the person behind the character matters and not the characters profession (well, at least concerning dps-classes). There are several off-meta-builds that work well and are reasonable (like kitless Holo, SB³, Auramancer, etc.). Even classes like Power-Reaper can perform reasonably well in the hands of a good player - especially so in PUGs.

    Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

    If you look at balance patches, Anet balances the game taking meta as standard composition to look at. There is no room for diversity anymore, and wasn't there for a long time already.

    There is quite a bunch of diversity, idk what gives you that impression? They nerfed overperformers and buffed underperformers for a while now and every single class has a place in every mode

    Is there?

    Knockout argument: Chrono and Druid.

    Even then, condi-classes aren't of much use in fractals and even in raid, you have discrimination between dps-classes. Then you have Necro which isn't desired anywhere. Sure, stuff has gotten slightly better in the dps-department after the last balance-patch, but it still isn't good. It still hasn't reached a point were I'd say "Yes, this game features a healthy degree of diversity".

    Leaves you with 8 spots to fill. People kitten on Rev for months, but at this point it climbed to top DPS spot for many encounters. If you look for supports, many classes can fill the spot. You have multiple classes filling a condi DPS role.. yeah, I'd call that diversity. Some are better than others, but most of them are still VERY playable.

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • reaVer.4056reaVer.4056 Member ✭✭
    edited August 2, 2018

    @OP meta-game is the game played within the game. It is basically a consensus on which game rules to stress and which not. So a berserk-meta would basically imply people playing berserker gear. A meta doesn't have to be the most optimal form of playing the game, though when referred to 'the meta' the optimum is usually referred to. And 'the meta' usually involves numbercrunching, tests, etc.

    With that out of the way. I can tell what the deleted forum post contains because it is extremely predictable and extremely simple: Everyone is expected to play the game. This means that players understand the game's rules, that they have a basic grasp of what is going on that they can do some minimal calculations to know what their margins are so that they don't fail repeatedly at a certain boss/event. You could grab your chess board and move the pawns along the diagonal, sideways or backwards; but then it's no longer chess. Basically not utilizing the ruleset available means you're not playing the game.

    I presume we all understand what "not playing the game" does when you're in a group of people that are playing the game, but the effects go beyond that. We only need to look at DotA2 to see what the results will be: they are losing 30k players per month and they have done so since 2016 (the game is scheduled to die). The reasons for this are the same that I see festering in this game. People that do play the game, that put up a generous forum post with what their expectations are, only to have that post removed due to complaints from the other group of people that under no circumstances want to feel any form of responsibility and sure as hell don't want to be offended. Just like the GMs and forum moderators here Valve sided with the latter group as they thought that was their biggest source of players. They never did so explicitly but their reporting system was essentially a voting system which meant that players trying to play the game would get the short end of the draw repeatedly.

    So when the casual crowd was being catered to, why would they leave? The same reason they will quit this game if the current trends keep up: easy access to content will mean that everyone will complete that content. DotA2 became so poisonous that high tier games boiled down to exactly the same issues as the low tier games and that meant that players at low tier had already seen what the game had to offer (regardless of whether they were trying or not). And when no new content hidden behind challenges becomes available the game becomes boring and players will stop playing. This is the general fate of every game, except for multiplayer games that obey the competitive oath: games like Quake, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear (my personal favorite) never really accumulated a really large playerbase, but have always managed to keep their playerbase. And that is because when one player evolves, the other evolves which results in and endless upward spiral. When the oath to competition is dropped, when players are no longer expected to give their best to succeed, you enter into a downward spiral and the game would enter its 'completed' state like DotA2 already has and GW2 is about to.

    And when people look at people putting in the work, the effort; to get the best odds at success, they often only see the hardships and the stress that is immediately revealed to them. This stress is no different from regular business life, if you don't face it now you will either face it in the near future or be unemployed for your entire life. You cannot go through business without ever getting offended, this is simple reality. So you'd think games like these are work... that people playing these games are essentially in overtime. And for a part you would be right, just try crafting ascended armor the first time or doing the work for legendary gear, but the difference between gaming and business is that gaming generally provides better rewards to the mind. True gaming, whether it's chess, checkers or street fighter has always been about the exploration of possibilities; to find the limits, to use the limits to your advantage and to beat who or what you're trying to overcome. This is the reward, this is what can give a kick that has few rivals and 'casual' players generally don't feel the desire to go through all the stages of accomplishment.

    This implies that providing content that is not locked behind a challenge that is difficult to overcome (but not impossible) will devalue it's reward. If you create a single player dungeon that players can run for free and they get 10g after, they will run it repeatedly and the time spent there will be worth 10g throughout the GW2 trading world. As such putting in a dungeon too weak would result in very big inflation that would cause the game's economy to collapse (I recall this is what essentially happened to D3 with its auction house). After the collapse of the economy, the players would get access to all content -> finished state -> game dead. Thus having 1 man content with the reward of 5 man content is simply out of the question. Even if ArenaNet wanted to, it would effectively kill their game. The intricacies of 5 man content is what makes the reward valid. The same way 40 man content balances out with comparable 40 man rewards.

    That basic requirement is what ends up making the game fun. Its what keeps players thinking, it makes them look for new answers to their problems and as long as that wheel is kept in motion the game can become as immortal as the golden games before it.

    Now forum moderator, without doubt your eyes are going to fall upon this wall of text and you may remember that other wall of extreme sarcasm you have removed. This is very important: If you impose a double standard where feels are a different level of infringing on people's right to enjoy the game compared to screwing over the 4/9/49/199 players the person is playing with the game will die: your programmers and game designers will not be able to create new challenges because they may make the players feel that they are incompetent (which in turn offends them) and when the content is put behind insignificant walls the content will be cleared faster than your programmers can make new content to explore. I'm not advocating blind untargeted rage over any chat system, but the source of the problem will always have to be dealt with; especially when the GMs decide to intervene.

    And if you still don't think that challenging content will attract/keep players, just look at Path of Exile. GGG has been adding more and more difficult content throughout their development process and their playerbase has kept playing their game for a very long time already. The game doesn't look anywhere near death and the difficulty combined with the vast amount of options to explore is what makes that happen.

    Everyone is equal under the CoC, but those ArenaNet agrees with are more equal than others.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2018

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

  • Soul.1378Soul.1378 Member ✭✭
    edited August 2, 2018

    This is literally the first thing you see when you look at how to install ArcDPS

    "how do i install/use it
    don't be a d-ck."

  • Rasimir.6239Rasimir.6239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @NicholaLord.2630 said:
    The thing is the ideology is not what GW2 prorates for the outside. GW2 is spoken about as a "take your time" "enjoy the journey" "there is no rush" yet you find yourself in the end with the exact opposite, maybe its human nature.. but i do feel that ANET funnels you into one of a few routes: and it usually starts with acquiring Ascended gear - which is a grind what ever method you choose, and with grind comes finding the fastest method - to reduce the grind - You then tend to Fractals - Then raid, both require your build to be optimal... or wvw.. that by nature is a fastest first, and really a grind...

    So i guess in conclusion we all join gw2 as its different from the norm, and we end up grinding like any other mmo.. its the grind that equates to trying to do things optimally with that come elitism.

    oh but it's even company standard today to rush things, look at LW3 and LW4, this content becomes unpopular so fast, you'd better play it fast on release or prepare for trouble when trying to complete achievements, so they basically don't care about their "journey", it's yet another marketing slogan people blindly believed in

    On the contrary. I rarely ever play LW episodes when they come out, but prefer to take my time and go into the maps/do the collections once the initial frenzy has died down. I have yet to have a problem with any collections and/or achievements .

    WIth the current episode, I tried to do the story earlier, in the days right after release, because I wanted to check out the new mount before going on vacation the weekend after release. It was a very unpleasant experience, with rude and inconsiderate players all over the new maps and collection-related events :( . When I came back 10 days later, the initial rush had died down, and I had (and still have) a great time, already have most of the achievements done, and am enjoying myself greatly.

    The myth of "having to do new content when it comes out" is nothing more than that: a myth. I know many players who, like myself, prefer to take their time with new content, and I have yet to come across anything that's undoable if not done right at release.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NicholaLord.2630 said:
    The thing is the ideology is not what GW2 prorates for the outside. GW2 is spoken about as a "take your time" "enjoy the journey" "there is no rush" yet you find yourself in the end with the exact opposite, maybe its human nature.. but i do feel that ANET funnels you into one of a few routes: and it usually starts with acquiring Ascended gear - which is a grind what ever method you choose, and with grind comes finding the fastest method - to reduce the grind - You then tend to Fractals - Then raid, both require your build to be optimal... or wvw.. that by nature is a fastest first, and really a grind...

    No, the dominant casual majority of this game has been shouting that's "what GW2 is" and "how it has to be played". But truthfully, it only works in PvE because rewards & success are guaranteed. And if they are not - any somewhat difficult event; I can think of a few - then toxicity still arises. Hell, if octovines go bad for 30 seconds even with 13 minutes left on the timer players lose their minds.

    About grinding; is grinding like running around SW or istan for loot? Or is grinding like running around doing pact supply network enslavery? Or is grinding doing the same crafting dailies? WvW is NEVER the fastest for loot.

    So i guess in conclusion we all join gw2 as its different from the norm, and we end up grinding like any other mmo.. its the grind that equates to trying to do things optimally with that come elitism.

    Yeah I don't know about you, but I get all my loot in ~3 hours doing raidclears. I've played a few korean mmo's, I'd say you have no idea.

    Here's how LFG works : Supply and demand. Players that make groups ask for whatever they want to play with - and the more demands they have the longer they have to wait. Turns out most groups rather wait for some decent specs than deal with a full clownfiesta. If you want more groups who allow players to play as they wish; don't demand us to make them. Just make them.

    And if nobody wants to make these groups, or there's a significant lack of them... Maybe there's a reason for that? Who are you all to tell us we must play your style? Why can't we enjoy our optimization and try to play as well as we can; rather than babysit players who are trying to immerse themselves while our goal is to clear asap?
    There is NOTHING wrong with either playstyles. There is a LOT wrong with players from one playstyle expecting, and even demanding, that the other playstyle always cater to them. If we get elitist, different groups then it's probably for a reason.

    And here's what promotes toxicity : players constantly promoting you can do whatever and take your time. That's not true, you need to respect the wishes and expectations of the groups you join. So yes you can, if you find or make a group that wants to do that. Many would rather not; and that's perfectly fine! LFG is nothing more than a market where you find the appropriate players.

    Here's what promotes toxicity : Casual minded players believe "the game must be played as such". You see NOBODY here minds if you make groups open to anyone. But you're demanding we make more LFG's for it. Why would players make groups for things they don't want to enjoy? The real issue is unrealistic expectations. You demand groups to join, regardless of what you do, that will guide you through the content. And frankly, turns out there's a lot more players who'd like a walkthrough than players who'd like to guide that.

    Keep promoting players can play whatever. Keep telling players not to bother with meta, and how anyone that asks players to play different - even if it's genuine and often good advice - is just a toxic elitist. I swear it won't promote further separation, elitism and toxicity.

    I like how the gap widens. It makes it painfully obvious that most "all welcome" groups are vastly slower than meta-oriented comps. Not because they're not running meta; by the way; but because the players are underperforming. Turns out players who enjoy the immersion aren't very concerned with learning mechanics and playing efficiently; they enjoy different aspects. Who'd have thought? And this is still fine, but you can't expect players who enjoy optimizing to carry you on demand. You choose one or the other. Expecting to play with players vastly better than you so they hardcarry you through content is unrealistic. Demanding players make groups suited for you is unrealistic.

    "Yeah but this used to be possible". Yeah we also used to have more capable players compared to hardcore casual players. 4/5 decent with one person not knowing much is a 20% loss. Nowadays it's more like 2/5 players kinda knowing what's going on, and 3 more or less following around trying to blend in. It's no suprise that the few players remaining with "all welcome" call it quits because of the huge amount of players who really don't know what to do; and struggle to learn. Players who are "experienced" at fractals; mind you! I bet a "Off meta, 150 cm kp" group would be pretty smooth.

    There are without a doubt more than enough players. Especially for "all welcome" groups. I used to make late night meme raids with no requirements and they would fill up, no matter how dead LFG, within 15 minutes. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ISSUE with finding players that wanna play like this. So what is the problem? If there are no groups, make one and take initiative. But don't demand other players to change their playstyle to yours, because that's how openworld PvE works.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Anet shouldn't take any responsibility. They don't have any.

    Better measurements don't make toxicity worse, it makes it better. I'd rather kick the players who don't perform in experienced groups. Not players who... don't have the AP but do perform- but the group doesn't and it's impossible to tell which one? (Dungeon days, hint). Or kick players for their lack of LI. Or kick players based on their class rather than their performance. Because all that is more unfair and far more toxic.

    I get it feels bad for players who struggle to perform, but the content is designed to be VERY forgiving so they can still find appropriate groups. It will just take them more time, which is very fair.

    Toxicity comes from the frustrations between players; not from measurement tools. It's not anet's job to fix toxicity. It's clear toxicity is NATURAL in any content where success isn't guaranteed. And guaranteeing success won't remove toxicity; it'll just kitten off anyone who enjoys a challenge. It's OK to have different mindsets. It's not OK to impose YOUR mindset on others. Nobody stops you from making "all welcome" and "no requirement" groups. And others making groups with requirements isn't toxic. It's them playing how they want. If there are no "all welcome" groups, that's probably because training an "all welcome" group through a single boss often takes longer than my elitist group doing 5 full raidwings.

  • reaVer.4056reaVer.4056 Member ✭✭

    @Etheri.5406

    What should be added to that is that you can make LFGs named "I'm new" and you will still get players joining and willing to help you. Often enough the patience for new players is infinitely higher than 'casual' players.

    Everyone is equal under the CoC, but those ArenaNet agrees with are more equal than others.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Anet shouldn't take any responsibility. They don't have any.

    Better measurements don't make toxicity worse, it makes it better. I'd rather kick the players who don't perform in experienced groups. Not players who... don't have the AP but do perform- but the group doesn't and it's impossible to tell which one? (Dungeon days, hint). Or kick players for their lack of LI. Or kick players based on their class rather than their performance. Because all that is more unfair and far more toxic.

    I get it feels bad for players who struggle to perform, but the content is designed to be VERY forgiving so they can still find appropriate groups. It will just take them more time, which is very fair.

    Toxicity comes from the frustrations between players; not from measurement tools. It's not anet's job to fix toxicity. It's clear toxicity is NATURAL in any content where success isn't guaranteed. And guaranteeing success won't remove toxicity; it'll just kitten off anyone who enjoys a challenge. It's OK to have different mindsets. It's not OK to impose YOUR mindset on others. Nobody stops you from making "all welcome" and "no requirement" groups. And others making groups with requirements isn't toxic. It's them playing how they want. If there are no "all welcome" groups, that's probably because training an "all welcome" group through a single boss often takes longer than my elitist group doing 5 full raidwings.

    Giving players tools which allow for generating more conflict and therefore more frustration is direct action to promote elitism. It's not just arc or raids or CMs. As mentioned before, it's even in the current festival. I have yet to see a map chat during boss blitz that isn't a fight between players about how to play the event. The toxicity and frustration are growing by design.

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Anet shouldn't take any responsibility. They don't have any.

    Better measurements don't make toxicity worse, it makes it better. I'd rather kick the players who don't perform in experienced groups. Not players who... don't have the AP but do perform- but the group doesn't and it's impossible to tell which one? (Dungeon days, hint). Or kick players for their lack of LI. Or kick players based on their class rather than their performance. Because all that is more unfair and far more toxic.

    I get it feels bad for players who struggle to perform, but the content is designed to be VERY forgiving so they can still find appropriate groups. It will just take them more time, which is very fair.

    Toxicity comes from the frustrations between players; not from measurement tools. It's not anet's job to fix toxicity. It's clear toxicity is NATURAL in any content where success isn't guaranteed. And guaranteeing success won't remove toxicity; it'll just kitten off anyone who enjoys a challenge. It's OK to have different mindsets. It's not OK to impose YOUR mindset on others. Nobody stops you from making "all welcome" and "no requirement" groups. And others making groups with requirements isn't toxic. It's them playing how they want. If there are no "all welcome" groups, that's probably because training an "all welcome" group through a single boss often takes longer than my elitist group doing 5 full raidwings.

    Giving players tools which allow for generating more conflict and therefore more frustration is direct action to promote elitism. It's not just arc or raids or CMs. As mentioned before, it's even in the current festival. I have yet to see a map chat during boss blitz that isn't a fight between players about how to play the event. The toxicity and frustration are growing by design.

    No, frustration and toxicity are growing because the amount of players who play hyper-casual and demand to succeed regardless of what they do has drastically increased.

    It's funny, 5 years of powercreep and the blitz event is harder than before for many, many groups. Why is that? I'm sure it's because ARCDPS.

    The nicest runs I've had in blitz were running with organised groups / guilds which gave simple instructions, were followed, completed easy gold with plenty of time left on the timer and go again. The toxic runs are joining random pugs, having commanders try to explain players what to do in between their tantrums about how impossible the event is (?) and how X boss needs more players despite the commander literally telling them NOT to come. And then the full tilt when the event fails.

    The toxicity in this event? It proves players got WORSE at the game, and still feel entitled to rewards.
    The only thing arcdps is guilty of is confirming what every minmax player always knew. The average player is ... barely contributing. Most players contribute less than they scale up these bosses. ;)

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Anet shouldn't take any responsibility. They don't have any.

    Better measurements don't make toxicity worse, it makes it better. I'd rather kick the players who don't perform in experienced groups. Not players who... don't have the AP but do perform- but the group doesn't and it's impossible to tell which one? (Dungeon days, hint). Or kick players for their lack of LI. Or kick players based on their class rather than their performance. Because all that is more unfair and far more toxic.

    I get it feels bad for players who struggle to perform, but the content is designed to be VERY forgiving so they can still find appropriate groups. It will just take them more time, which is very fair.

    Toxicity comes from the frustrations between players; not from measurement tools. It's not anet's job to fix toxicity. It's clear toxicity is NATURAL in any content where success isn't guaranteed. And guaranteeing success won't remove toxicity; it'll just kitten off anyone who enjoys a challenge. It's OK to have different mindsets. It's not OK to impose YOUR mindset on others. Nobody stops you from making "all welcome" and "no requirement" groups. And others making groups with requirements isn't toxic. It's them playing how they want. If there are no "all welcome" groups, that's probably because training an "all welcome" group through a single boss often takes longer than my elitist group doing 5 full raidwings.

    Giving players tools which allow for generating more conflict and therefore more frustration is direct action to promote elitism. It's not just arc or raids or CMs. As mentioned before, it's even in the current festival. I have yet to see a map chat during boss blitz that isn't a fight between players about how to play the event. The toxicity and frustration are growing by design.

    No, frustration and toxicity are growing because the amount of players who play hyper-casual and demand to succeed regardless of what they do has drastically increased.

    It's funny, 5 years of powercreep and the blitz event is harder than before for many, many groups. Why is that? I'm sure it's because ARCDPS.

    The nicest runs I've had in blitz were running with organised groups / guilds which gave simple instructions, were followed, completed easy gold with plenty of time left on the timer and go again. The toxic runs are joining random pugs, having commanders try to explain players what to do in between their tantrums about how impossible the event is (?) and how X boss needs more players despite the commander literally telling them NOT to come. And then the full tilt when the event fails.

    The toxicity in this event? It proves players got WORSE at the game, and still feel entitled to rewards.
    The only thing arcdps is guilty of is confirming what every minmax player always knew. The average player is ... barely contributing. Most players contribute less than they scale up these bosses. ;)

    Boss Blitz problems are not related to arc and I never said anything like this. Do not manipulate my posts, thank you.

  • RaidsAreEasyAF.8652RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2018

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    Another severe problem is that high DPS is too overrewarding in GW2 since it trivializes content and circumvents mechanics. It isn't sufficient to perform reasonably, you >have to perform really well to skip mechanics altogether. A reason that's also important here is the horrible class-balance. The far too large gaps in DPS-potentials and the >discrimination between condi- and power-damage even is an issue. The major problem is the imbalance between support-builds and strong unique boons though which >lead to stupidly strict gameplay. The game would be healthier if LFGs would look like "1 Tank, 2 Heals, 7 DPS" instead of "2 Chronos, 2 Druids, [x] pDPS, [y] cDPS".

    DPS classes are closer together than ever on the golem.
    https://i.imgur.com/iNmUF9c.png
    Thats a small hitbox comparison.
    Only Thief and Necro stand out.

    Pugs mostly dont care what DPS class you choose. They may not take you if you are a condi ob KC or a Mirage on Xera but thats pretty much it.

    @Dante.1763 said:
    What do people even what condi for right now?

    They are really good on bosses without phases.
    Look at Cairn, Mursaat, Matthias and SH for example.
    There also also condi classes that do well on bosses with phases.
    Like C-Engi on Sabetha or Renegade on Gorseval.

    Your condi soulbeast may not be meta but its incredibly easy to play. Especially the SB³ Soulbeast.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.
    Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

    My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

    On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

    If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
    Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
    Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.
    Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

    My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

    On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

    Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.
    Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

    My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

    On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

    Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

    By saying original release I suppose you mean the open world(soloable with autoattacks in green clerics gear), dungeons(balanced around Lvl<80 chars in rares), exploration(wich gets old and repetitive after the n'th time), WvW(a dead game mode for years that is and always has been just as toxic as the raid scene), the personal story(either it has to be soloable by AA'ing or, if there is a sliver of a challenge, ppl get riled up and shout at anett for "gating" story behind a challenge), living world(yeah, LS one oscillated between press f 250 times for a reward and things like the marionette that had the same problems because 3 players could fail the event for the whole map). The original release had next to no challenging content and by the time HoT hit the shelves that was very obvious. PPl got bored by the easy press 1 to kill, press f to loot gameplay. I'm not saying that raids were the only possible solution to this problem but "Play how you want" never meant that every content, every reward is available to every player no matter what they do.

    Pls elaborate on proper game design. I see that raids divided the community but I see that divide more along the lines of some ppl play wvw some don't, some ppl raid some don't, some ppl do world bosses some don't. Raids and CMs are a sepparate game mode, different from the rest of PvE.

    About boss blitz: Yes there is toxicity, and maybe ANet could have given better instructions on how to do the event. But everything else is player generated drama. Even if Anet gives clear hints and advice on content, ppl ignore it and just gather around the commander pressing their AA. How could boss blitz be improved? Anet already removed the champion bags from the champs and made it so that champs don't randomly spawn as mobs, this should decentivise players from clumping together, yet as long as I don't actively look for a somewhat organized map, I end up on a map where 40+ players zerg one boss after the other, taking up to 45min to complete the event. ANet has made the scaling in a way that punishes zerging, this should decentivise players from zerging, it doesn't because ppl don't think about what they are doing, are not reading advice given, don't ask questions and generally don't care about playing the game, they care about the shiny. Rewards for going gold, aren't worlds better than getting silver, nothing special is in the golden chest, no higher chance on valuable rewards or anything, this should keep ppl from being overly competitive, going for gold at all cost, yet ppl see that there is gold, assume it must be the best reward since legendary armor and get toxic when their map "only" does silver. Again, ppl don't get the event. Maybe it's anet to blame for not giving enough information but even if they gave all the information necessary to understand the event, ppl would not read it because they don't care. At worst, ppl would complain that ANet is trying to tell them how to play the game, scandalous isn't it.

    If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
    Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
    Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:
    6) Where elitism bothers me, but that might just be me, is t4+rec fractals. As stated above, sure, there is a meta for fractals and doing things faster means more loot per time. But t4+recs never required a Druid+Chrono+BS+2pDPS comp to do it in a reasonable amount of time. When I was active going for the optimal comp was almoste never a thing for me, sure I was happy when it happened but I never forced it. Nowadays the t4 lfg is full of optimal comp groups with one maybe none group open for "all welcome" or "know your kitten and all is well". Fractals t4 is much more about knowing the mechanics than it is about dps. Damage only comes into consideration when players want to skip mechanics or when it comes to concentration, the faster a fight is over the less time the boss has to kill you, I get that. But even if you skip mechanics and have a high dps output as a group, I always felt that what you won in terms of time, you lost in terms of enjoyment...while not gaining that much time imho.

    If there are no "all welcome" groups then you can always make one. I don't understand why there is a problem if players want to play Fractals with whatever build composition they want. It's my time after all, if I want a Druid+Chrono+BS+2pDPS comp, why should I accept anything other than that? Enjoyment is subjective, I find more enjoyment in smooth runs where everyone knows what they are doing and using a proper build composition, rather than having to pick up the slack of someone that refuses to alter at least some of his utility skills (which costs nothing) to better help the group because "it's my build! Don't tell me how to play you elitist!".

    I'm more confused at those kinds of people, a very simple change could make all the difference, yet they snap at you for even mentioning another skill, trait or weapon to use. Sometimes it's good to take the advice of others, especially if they are way more experienced than you, but what we often see is really stubborn people who refuse to even listen for various selfish reasons.

  • reaVer.4056reaVer.4056 Member ✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.
    Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

    My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

    On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

    Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

    No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

    If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

    Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

    And @Etheri.5406 picked to counter the ArcDPS statement because that was the open goal. It allowed him to disprove all of your assumptions with a single sentence.

    Everyone is equal under the CoC, but those ArenaNet agrees with are more equal than others.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:
    6) Where elitism bothers me, but that might just be me, is t4+rec fractals. As stated above, sure, there is a meta for fractals and doing things faster means more loot per time. But t4+recs never required a Druid+Chrono+BS+2pDPS comp to do it in a reasonable amount of time. When I was active going for the optimal comp was almoste never a thing for me, sure I was happy when it happened but I never forced it. Nowadays the t4 lfg is full of optimal comp groups with one maybe none group open for "all welcome" or "know your kitten and all is well". Fractals t4 is much more about knowing the mechanics than it is about dps. Damage only comes into consideration when players want to skip mechanics or when it comes to concentration, the faster a fight is over the less time the boss has to kill you, I get that. But even if you skip mechanics and have a high dps output as a group, I always felt that what you won in terms of time, you lost in terms of enjoyment...while not gaining that much time imho.

    If there are no "all welcome" groups then you can always make one. I don't understand why there is a problem if players want to play Fractals with whatever build composition they want. It's my time after all, if I want a Druid+Chrono+BS+2pDPS comp, why should I accept anything other than that? Enjoyment is subjective, I find more enjoyment in smooth runs where everyone knows what they are doing and using a proper build composition, rather than having to pick up the slack of someone that refuses to alter at least some of his utility skills (which costs nothing) to better help the group because "it's my build! Don't tell me how to play you elitist!".

    I'm more confused at those kinds of people, a very simple change could make all the difference, yet they snap at you for even mentioning another skill, trait or weapon to use. Sometimes it's good to take the advice of others, especially if they are way more experienced than you, but what we often see is really stubborn people who refuse to even listen for various selfish reasons.

    I do, there's no problem there, if I want to run fractals like I want to I do. ;) What is bothering me is that it used to be 20% "opticomp, exp, p+f+kp"-lfgs, 20% "all welcome, know your stuff and all is well"-lfgs and 60% lfgs w/o any requests, now it's more like 90% are opticomp ones and 10% have been probably posted in the wrong tab. It's not a problem for me, it's just a bit disheartening that ppl fall for the meta in these numbers where a simple lvl77 fractal really doesn't need a chrono, a bs a druid and 2 pDPS classes to be smooth. Not arguing that this isn't the optimal comp or that the optimal comp will be less smooth, just that the optimal comp is not needed, for a still rather smooth and easy run, in a way a optimized comp is needed for raids or CMs due to timers and the "do or die" nature of the mechanics.

    If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
    Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
    Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reaVer.4056 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.
    Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

    My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

    On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

    Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

    No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

    If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

    Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

    And @Etheri.5406 picked to counter the ArcDPS statement because that was the open goal. It allowed him to disprove all of your assumptions with a single sentence.

    Yes they can.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @reaVer.4056 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.
    Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

    My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

    On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

    Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

    No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

    If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

    Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

    And @Etheri.5406 picked to counter the ArcDPS statement because that was the open goal. It allowed him to disprove all of your assumptions with a single sentence.

    Yes they can.

    Pls give an alternative. How should Anet design their game to improve the habbits of their players. Please elaborate.

    If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
    Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
    Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:
    I do, there's no problem there, if I want to run fractals like I want to I do. ;) What is bothering me is that it used to be 20% "opticomp, exp, p+f+kp"-lfgs, 20% "all welcome, know your stuff and all is well"-lfgs and 60% lfgs w/o any requests, now it's more like 90% are opticomp ones and 10% have been probably posted in the wrong tab. It's not a problem for me, it's just a bit disheartening that ppl fall for the meta in these numbers where a simple lvl77 fractal really doesn't need a chrono, a bs a druid and 2 pDPS classes to be smooth. Not arguing that this isn't the optimal comp or that the optimal comp will be less smooth, just that the optimal comp is not needed, for a still rather smooth and easy run, in a way a optimized comp is needed for raids or CMs due to timers and the "do or die" nature of the mechanics.

    Once you finish Fractals long enough and doing the same thing over and over, boredom sets in. It becomes a "let's get the rewards fast and easy" rather than "let's explore this new fractal". The really slow pace of Fractal releases, or mediocre fractals in terms of content and encounter quality (like the forgettable Deepstone) doesn't help either. Still, it's player choice, they prefer the optimal composition, that's their decision, there is no way to enforce it on them, that would be way worse.

  • lokh.2695lokh.2695 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:
    I do, there's no problem there, if I want to run fractals like I want to I do. ;) What is bothering me is that it used to be 20% "opticomp, exp, p+f+kp"-lfgs, 20% "all welcome, know your stuff and all is well"-lfgs and 60% lfgs w/o any requests, now it's more like 90% are opticomp ones and 10% have been probably posted in the wrong tab. It's not a problem for me, it's just a bit disheartening that ppl fall for the meta in these numbers where a simple lvl77 fractal really doesn't need a chrono, a bs a druid and 2 pDPS classes to be smooth. Not arguing that this isn't the optimal comp or that the optimal comp will be less smooth, just that the optimal comp is not needed, for a still rather smooth and easy run, in a way a optimized comp is needed for raids or CMs due to timers and the "do or die" nature of the mechanics.

    Once you finish Fractals long enough and doing the same thing over and over, boredom sets in. It becomes a "let's get the rewards fast and easy" rather than "let's explore this new fractal". The really slow pace of Fractal releases, or mediocre fractals in terms of content and encounter quality (like the forgettable Deepstone) doesn't help either. Still, it's player choice, they prefer the optimal composition, that's their decision, there is no way to enforce it on them, that would be way worse.

    I agree on that one. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. As I said, toxicity(and it doesn't matter from wich side of the spectrum the toxicity comes) is a problem first in the minds and mindset of the player, then anet may enable or disable such behavior. Anet does this and they're doing a good job in most cases. We have a BL that let's us filter unwanted individuals off our mapchat, we have an lfg tool that's free to use and available to everyone to post and find groups of likeminded players, anet might not hand out enough rewards for certain things but they sure got better at placing rewards where they're needed and to funnel players into less competitive and more cooperative behavior.

    If you want X, and Y is needed to get get X, you also have to want Y if you really want X. If you don't want Y, you don't want X. It's easy.
    Pro: Build Templates, Dungeon Rework, UW content
    Contra: New Races, New Classes, New Weapons, Capes

  • Etheri.5406Etheri.5406 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reaVer.4056 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.
    Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

    My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

    On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

    Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

    No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

    If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

    I disagree to some extent. You see, openworld PvE is a perfect example of how it "can work". You CAN create content that is doable by virtually anyone, despite the majority of players literally upscaling the bosses more than contributing, which is still quite succesful. Useless players can still feel useful, without any skill or investment which is something many players strive for. On top of that; all players have more or less the same goal. The goals of players with different preferences are alligned, not contradictory. This is achieved by making the content trivially simple; which is a major downside for anyone that enjoys a challenge and optimization. And different kinds of content are OK and healthy.

    Instead we have players who took the aspects they enjoy in open world PvE : which is mostly there being virtually no correlation between performance and rewards - and demanded this throughout the entire game. And anet can do that, if they want. By literally deleting everything challenging and competitive in the game, and continuously nerfing anything that is difficult. Like in openworld PvE. Remember when players complained orr was too difficult and it was massively nerfed across the board?? :trollface:

    The issue is these players expect this to go for the entire game. In fact, they DEMAND this to be true for all aspects of the game. And it is NOT POSSIBLE to unlike rewards, incentives AND alignment for PvP style modes. This is where I agree. You can't get competitive / challenging team content which rewards you (well) regardless of how you perform. That always leads to toxicity. In PvP, many players play to "win", to compete. Others play to be rewarded. Imagine winners and losers both get roughly the same rewards. That would make it so those who just want rewards will barely try; and this will lead to annoyance between the "play to win" and the "play for rewards" crowd. Sound familiar? Oh wait every WvW map is full of pipfarmers and as soon as the first teamfight is lost you have pipfarmers going AFK. "I hate PvP but I want the backpack". Add to this that most of these more casual players are not used to dealing with these feelings. They're not used to having to contribute, or having to deal with different opinions from other players.

    And obviously, that is what leads to toxicity. Which; because the issues aren't adressed because "wvw is a sideproject anyways", only escalates. Nowadays I just make my groups with a clear goal. If i want newbs I'll make a training raid, and if I have the time I do both in pve and wvw. But even in these training raids; I'm kicking any entitled special snowflakes straight out. Because the truth is, it's honestly super easy to find new players willing to put in the effort. It's just requires you weeding out a few bad apples.

    In my opinion, most of the toxicity comes because of casual players demanding everyone must cater to their style of play. You see I don't ask them to join my groups. I don't join their groups to grief them. I just want to play the game the way I enjoy. And because I enjoy to minmax and optimize, that makes me elitist and toxic. There's nothing else to it. So I embrace it and kick literally anyone who join my groups without meeting the requirements or if they demand I play different. And that includes WvW. If all these raiders are toxic, why is it players rather make groups for them than for the nice, friendly EVERYONE welcome casuals? So delusional.

    Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

    I agree - chat hostility is a symptom and if it becomes prevalent then it's a clear indicator of bigger issues. And truthfully, the toxicity in PvP and WvW have significantly increased while their veteran communities have drastically decreased. It's almost like an unhealthy gamemode which is struggling is less likely to be... fun? non toxic? Who'd have guessed. Who'd have guessed trying to get players who dislike PvP into PvP with rewards; without wanting to properly try would lead to players getting more annoyed and upset. And who'd have guessed that players getting upset would make more of these PvE carebears afk for the rewards just so they don't have to deal with other players.

    The friendliest community literally plays in a zone where it's nearly impossible to be harmed. Somehow they mistake this for "friendliness". The game is literally designed so you aren't griefed by other players nearby, super easy, can't steal or boycot others and griefing is almost impossible. Yet, and coordination that fails and players still flip their stuff. Somehow players manage to be so bad they actually make events harder by "helping" because they literally contribute less than they scale the event.
    Being friendly isn't "not having any tools or incentives to hurt others". Being friendly is having all the tools and the incentives to disagree and hurt others, but not doing it out of respect / friendliness / understanding. The exact opposite of this community, which is continuously separating it's playerbase because they dare play slightly different.

    Have I mentioned delusional? Players thinking fluff and positivism = friendly then as soon as someone does something they disagree with they flip out.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @reaVer.4056 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Etheri.5406 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Now answer me this - with the introduction of raids and fractal CMs, which scenario is being realised - anet fighting toxicity and elitism or anet actively promoting this kind of behaviour and segregating the playerbase?

    Anet can't fight toxicity as toxicity/elitism is the behavior of players. Anet can enable or disable this behavior, but I go for the "it's human nature" answer. With the introduction of Raids and CMs they added to the game a sliver of content where the meta, that exists no matter what game you develop, actually matters if you want to beat the game and get the shiny. With the greenlighting of DPS meters and introduction of the testgolem Anet gave the playerbase(I'm not sure wether or not acces to the golem is somewhat bound to having a tag or not, I'm sorry:)) means to measure their performance, to do some sciencing and number crunching.
    (I'm leaving out the topic of privacy, that is wether or not other players should be allowed to see even my numbers. ANet does not allow, to my knowledge, 3rd party programs to gearcheck. The discussion about privacy can be done in a different thread started by a different person who wants to write a lengthy primer about it. :P)

    Anet is most certainly not promoting toxicity or elitism on the other hand either. With Raids and CMs Anet caters to a portion of the players hat want the challenge, that want to crunch numbers or at least want to learn to play a build where reliable sources did the sciencing. Anet never really had that before. Fractals and ascended were probably the first step in that direction but only with Raids and CMs, adding timers and "live or die" mechanics, the game was able to provide challenging group content. Maybe they should have reworked dungeons instead or should have gone another route, but there's no point in talking about what should've been done at this point.

    They also allowed for 3rd party dps meter that is yet another tool for further segregation of players. I would take your argumentation if anet did nothing. But when they introduce content that puts people itno conflict and let them to use tools allowing for further harassment (if player established artificial quotas are not met), then they are promoting elitism actively.

    Arc is a measurement tool, not a toxicity tool. Toxicity comes from large gaps in play style, skill and expectations. Arc only allows you to measure some things; which proves this difference. It doesnt lead to toxicity, it doesn't promote toxicity, it just gives data. If that data shows some players are vastly underperforming and that leads to toxicity; that's still on the players and not on arc.

    Just like any other tool, it's not to blame itself. But it can be used improperly which Anet takes no responsibility for.

    Pls provide an alternative then. Toxocity and elitism areolder than Anet greenlighting ArcDPS. With enough experience I can tell if that weaver is closer to 20k or closer to 10k DPS, I don't need Arc for that. I also don't need Arc to tell if someone is able to dodge or if they're able to do mechanincs or not.
    Not making challenging content is not an alternative, one because we already have it and two because of what reaVer explains. If everything is solable and dond an easy victory the game will become boring for even more ppl and they leave. I always get the impression that only a small amount of "casuals" is salty about the raids because of any principles or because they feel left out of the experience, they're salty because they can't get the shiny without killing the bosses. Handing out the shinies for mere participation would make GW2 PvE go down the PvP road fast. I see it in PvP in every game I play(ranking between gold3 and plat1). PPl are there for the reward, not necessarily to play the game. Playing the game is more of a burden to get to the shiny then quit.

    My point still stands, toxicity and elitism is a problem in the ppls minds and ANet can't do much about it. GW2 is still a very casual friendly game, nothin can be obtained in raids or CMs that is necessary for any other aspect of the game. BiS gear is not gated behind Raids or CMs, neither is story or character progression. Gold rewards are good, I admit, but not overwhelmingly considering that food and runes also cost money and that you can't farm Raids like you can farm frtactals or dungeons because of the weekly cap.

    On powercreep and viability of builds: With the powercreep that was HoT and PoF and the balancing where ANet is trying to bring classes closer together when it comes to dps potential it is now possible to play a variety of different dps builds both for condi and for power. The variety is there in the game, it's just the ppl who opt for dat hot new max dps build and maybe even demand that others play that as well(I wouldn't raid with such a person but I know they exist). Again, this is not Anet's fault, what they can do is making more builds viable by balancing, what the community needs to do is chill the kitten out about numbers. To beat VG you don't need to play dps builds that are geared towards speedclears and world records doing 35k, 25k is perfectly fine. But the players don't see that. All they see is that 35>25 so it has to be better and because it is better it has to be a requirement.

    Anet can limit toxicity by implementing proper game design, which was the case around original release. However in time all the good intentions were gone. Again, just look at boss blitz. They knew the problems this event introduced last time and this time they repeated those design mistakes. Not to mention this event is worthless to even try playing it properly. Such mistakes create conflicts, which game dev should eliminate.

    No they cannot. Game developers cannot code around a portion of their players being dead weight and make a successful game. That's where GMs and LFG tools should step in and this is why its imperative that GMs do their jobs properly. If it takes 10 people to screw over a map event and those 10 are not addressed by the GMs these 10 players will successfully infringe on the right to enjoy for the other 190 players. That causes those 190 players to complain in one way or another (some come here, some quit playing).

    If the developers then try to step in and try to address the issue from within the game, they relegate themselves to making easier content which removes challenge barriers for people that do what they are supposed to be doing and thus the game will run out of content really fast.

    Chat hostility is merely a symptom of an underlying problem and is often natural. Not everyone will agree on what should happen and thus they will inevitably have falling outs with eachother, this is NORMAL (and is not genderbound before anyone pulls that card). Once one side manages to convince another then behaviors will adjust and the group will eventually succeed. If players in a group do not stand for anything other than lazyness, the group will never improve and instead will head in a downward spiral. This applies everywhere, not just in this game. Business will not succeed if people inside it are not talking or arguing, because the competition will talk and will evolve beyond them.

    And @Etheri.5406 picked to counter the ArcDPS statement because that was the open goal. It allowed him to disprove all of your assumptions with a single sentence.

    Yes they can.

    Pls give an alternative. How should Anet design their game to improve the habbits of their players. Please elaborate.

    That's simple, make the entire game require zero effort or skill so players in white gear with random builds can finish it without trouble. Like core Tyria World Bosses for example, excluding the harder ones like Tequatl and Triple Trouble. Even better, make the game about farming moa in Queensdale and all problems with elitism and toxicity will be solved. /s

<13
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