Revenant would be more fun if weapon skills didn't cost energy.

Basically: using skills is fun but it's not fun having to choose between either doing either weapon skills or utility skills. It would be more fun if your energy wasn't draining super fast and you had the chance to play around with your skills a bit more.

@Jirb.7213 said:Basically: using skills is fun but it's not fun having to choose between either doing either weapon skills or utility skills. It would be more fun if your energy wasn't draining super fast and you had the chance to play around with your skills a bit more.

Revenant is designed to use all or most of its energy and swap legends every 10s or so as its main form of energy management. To be a good revenant means you have to make the right skill choices to maximize your damage/survivability/etc. in any given moment. As you learn how to play the class better (has a relatively high skill cap to be played correctly/well) you should find the energy mechanic easier to use. Also since you mention energy draining too fast it sounds like you may be overly reliant on upkeep skills. Using these less/knowing when to use them properly will leave you with much more energy to play around with

I don't know in how many ways it can and/or needs be said,lower or removed energy costs on revenant weapon skills will lead to increased cooldowns, or other various nerfs, throughout ALL revenant skills.

@Jirb.7213 said:Basically: using skills is fun but it's not fun having to choose between either doing either weapon skills or utility skills. It would be more fun if your energy wasn't draining super fast and you had the chance to play around with your skills a bit more.

No.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Jirb.7213 said:Basically: using skills is fun but it's not fun having to choose between either doing either weapon skills or utility skills. It would be more fun if your energy wasn't draining super fast and you had the chance to play around with your skills a bit more.

It's not really that I'm having trouble playing as revenant and more that I think it would be more fun if the weapon skills didn't cost energy. That's the only reason I want this change: because I think it would be more fun to have the energy be purely used for utility skills.

Yeah the dual cost needs to go. Anyone who doesn't believe this probably double dips their chips at social gatherings.

the energy cost on weapons is fine - weapons and utilities could use some minor energy cost reductions in some areas.
no need to remove it though.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Jirb.7213" said:Basically: using skills is fun but it's not fun having to choose between either doing either weapon skills or utility skills. It would be more fun if your energy wasn't draining super fast and you had the chance to play around with your skills a bit more.

Which would make sense if the legends complimented each other. But they kind of don't. Not to mention Ventari has to be camped if you're a healing spec, Glint has to be camped to maintain boons (because they don't overlap by default), both Shiro and Jalis have pretty significant upkeep skills in their kit, and Mallyx literally killed you if you ran its condition absorption build and swapped legend, losing access to Resistance.... the ONLY thing that was keeping you alive when you had all those stacks on you.

Almost everything about its design suggests you're supposed to do the exact opposite of swapping legends every 10 seconds to get more energy. The only reason we played it like that is because it was the only way to keep using skills without 5 seconds of down time. I don't blame the OP for relying on upkeep skills; because those are the only skills that last more then 3 seconds before you're completely drained. With the energy cost reductions in PvE, Rev can at least use more then 1 skill without having to immediately worry about an energy shortage.

The Rev "doesn't" have a high skill cap (as in class performs better the better I get at the game), but is highlighted by its low skill floor (as in when you're bad at it, it really shows). The Energy management is the bottle neck; because me being able to manage my energy better doesn't allow me to perform more actions (or more quickly), or increase the output of those actions. The only way Rev improves is through its buildcraft, because even the good builds hit their limit quickly in the hands of a halfway competent player.

@Jirb.7213 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Jirb.7213 said:Basically: using skills is fun but it's not fun having to choose between either doing either weapon skills or utility skills. It would be more fun if your energy wasn't draining super fast and you had the chance to play around with your skills a bit more.

The issue with that proposal is as Justine said:

@Justine.6351 said:I don't know in how many ways it can and/or needs be said,lower or removed energy costs on revenant weapon skills will lead to increased cooldowns, or other various nerfs, throughout ALL revenant skills.

To elaborate a little bit on that using a Sword/Sword + Shiro legend example:

1) Assuming we just swapped legends to Shiro, over the next 10 seconds we will have 100 energy to use total, 50 with swap (no charged mists) and then 50 over 10s time (assuming no upkeep skills)2) Assuming all sword skills are ready and off CD and that we use them as much as we can (based on their CDs) over that 10 second period we would use 45 energy (precision strike x2 + UA + Shackling Wave + Deathstrike, 10+15+10+10 = 45)3) That leaves us with 55 energy to use on Shiro's utility skills during that 10s (more potentially if we stay in the legend a few seconds longer). That gives us access to one Jade Winds + Enchanted Daggers or one Phase Traversal/Riposting Shadows + Impossible Odds + Enchanted Daggers. Given that Shiro's cooldowns are practically non-existent and that our weapon skills (in many/most cases) have the 2nd lowest CDs in the game for weapon skills (I've actually gone through every skill in the game and compared their CDs with revenant, I'm not just pulling this out of my kitten) it seems fair to me that if we're spamming every weapon skill we can only one or two high cost utility skills could be used4) If we remove that 45 energy from the weapon skills, it would have to be readjusted somewhere to preserve the current balance for RevenantTherefore this would lead to the rebalancing of that 45 energy back onto things like Phase Traversal, Jade Winds, Riposting Shadows and Impossible Odds. You'd be looking at 60+ energy Jade Winds, 45+ energy Phase Traversal, 40+ energy Riposting Shadows. If you look at the way the flow of combat works, lets say you really need to use Jade Winds for some reason, like preventing a rez or breaking a CC bar quickly. Currently, you would just swap and fire it off, stopping the rez or finishing off that CC bar. With a 60 energy Jade Winds, however, you'd have to wait an additional 2 seconds+ to be able to fire off that elite skill. That means you wouldn't be able to get that emergency CC off putting you at a disadvantage in whatever situation you're in.

That's just one example, but this would be the case across the entire revenant profession. This doesn't even include the fact that they would then likely increase CDs on weapon skills by a few seconds each. It would be a balance and gameplay change nightmare for the profession, which is why a lot of us long term revenants DO NOT want something like this implemented. It would leave us UP or OP again, and I'd rather not have either. We're in a really solid spot now; work should be done to improve some underused weapons and combinations in both pve and pvp (for example offhand shield in all game modes, Glint in pve, Kalla in pvp, etc.)

@"starlinvf.1358" said:Which would make sense if the legends complimented each other. But they kind of don't. Not to mention Ventari has to be camped if you're a healing spec, Glint has to be camped to maintain boons (because they don't overlap by default), both Shiro and Jalis have pretty significant upkeep skills in their kit, and Mallyx literally killed you if you ran its condition absorption build and swapped legend, losing access to Resistance.... the ONLY thing that was keeping you alive when you had all those stacks on you.

Almost everything about its design suggests you're supposed to do the exact opposite of swapping legends every 10 seconds to get more energy. The only reason we played it like that is because it was the only way to keep using skills without 5 seconds of down time. I don't blame the OP for relying on upkeep skills; because those are the only skills that last more then 3 seconds before you're completely drained. With the energy cost reductions in PvE, Rev can at least use more then 1 skill without having to immediately worry about an energy shortage.

The Rev "doesn't" have a high skill cap (as in class performs better the better I get at the game), but is highlighted by its low skill floor (as in when you're bad at it, it really shows). The Energy management is the bottle neck; because me being able to manage my energy better doesn't allow me to perform more actions (or more quickly), or increase the output of those actions. The only way Rev improves is through its buildcraft, because even the good builds hit their limit quickly in the hands of a halfway competent player.

Perhaps I should have rephrased my initial comment to "if you're using Revenant offensively you generally (read: not always) want to swap every 10s (for pve) and every 10-15s in pvp." With the defensive legends, true, camping them tends to be useful in more situations; it really depends on what you're trying to achieve. Also the devs have said that they designed the class's energy management to always have the ever-present choice between "should I switch to get more energy" or "should I stay in this legend for 3 more seconds to use a key skill."

For healing, I don't think you have to camp Ventari, I actually find myself out of energy for healing with Ventari if I'm not swapping semi-frequently, depending on how good the group is (definitely swapping less than a DPS build tho). Also Kalla has good synergy with Ventari and can provide solid long AoE heals/lifesteal while you wait for your Ventari heals to come back off CD. Also it should be noted that most healing specs outside of Tempest (and somewhat Firebrand) don't have constant, strong healing application. Druid obviously has to wait until Celestial Avatar is back up and only has its staff or glyphs in the downtime. When compared to Druid, Ventari actually has somewhat similar gameplay, going in and out of "heal form." If you pair Ventari with Herald you also get access to shield's heal alongside staff, which, while not huge, can help ease any "outside of Ventari" healing.

For Glint and boon upkeep, I think this might be the only situation in which you'd want to truly camp a legend (in pve, if for some reason your group doesn't have certain boons covered). However, if you're not worried about might output you can pretty easily maintain the other boons (with protection being more difficult if not running Bolster Fortifications and/or shield) even while waiting 10s for Glint to come back up. Glint has her own fair share of issues that need to be addressed. She's really only useful for group fury/some protection and as a support isn't really as good as Kalla. If I was tasked with 25 stacks of might I'd much rather take a condi renegade over any form of Herald. Same with healing revenant; I'd much prefer a renegade (unless Hand kiting deimos). For pve Glint needs something that sets her apart more. In pvp camping Glint/facets is much less useful/impractical.

While not all legends synergize well in every scenario, each one does have its own niche for certain situations. For example, doing the 8 orb Liadri achievement again this year I took Ventari alongside Glint for the knockback/projectile destruct/extra heals/alacrity, despite the fact I was running full 100% zerk gear. It was actually more useful than Shiro in that situation. For pvp/wvw, legend synergy isn't always as good as it is in PvE, but it's still there, with power builds having good to great synergy with Glint/Jalis/Shiro and to a lesser extent Mallyx, condi builds having synergy with Mallyx/Glint/Shiro and somewhat Jalis. In WvW a support rev can certainly run Ventari with pretty much any other legend except Shiro to provide various extra boons/buffs for his group.

As for the skill cap, the reason it has a "low skill floor" as you say is due to the high skill cap. This isn't as present in PvE, but most definitely present in PvP. The difference between the best revenant players and the worst is huge. Even the difference between a 2nd or 3rd tier plat rev and the best is significant. To play the class well a revenant has to make all the correct choices constantly or they will inevitably die/not get their kill. Compared to things like Spellbreaker or Mirage to be most effective on revenant requires excellent management of energy. We don't really have a lot of "get out of jail free" cards like a lot of other professions. I don't think Rev has the highest skill cap in the game, but it certainly has a high one. In pve, condi ren has probably the 3rd hardest rotation at the moment for max damage, behind Ele and Engi.

As for energy management not improving your output, that's true, but this is also something that every class has to deal with. All classes have to deal with a max output for damage in pve and for damage/sustain in pvp/wvw. The difference with revenant is that it's entirely a choices game in a much different way than most of the other professions. "Do I spend all my energy on offense, a mix, or all on defense?" "What do I need to do in this moment?" "(In pve) Do I spend my energy on full offense or do I help my struggling healer cleanse with Pain Absorption?" Also rev is (generally) more versatile than many other pure dps classes (in pve) and can help out with certain things that other classes can't necessarily, since a pure dps class generally will bring full damage utilities, whereas Rev usually has a few niche group support utilities (that don't have to be taken in advance) that can be used when needed to help save a run while still maintaining high damage (like Pain Absorption). Rev (more specifically condi rev) is also able to "make up" damage that other classes might lose out on due to mechanics/phases/etc. due to being able to get up to 100% energy and spend it all when returning to the boss. These are the reasons for its high skill cap and what makes the difference between a good/average rev and a great one. Revenant is really just all about choices.

I don't know if I agree entirely on the blanket statement that revs weapons should have no energy cost, but I do see a problem with current energy cost distribution. One of my main problems is the high cost of utilities, specifically shiro because it has escape mechanisms. My problem is that shiro is an assassin and you should be able to hop in or out, the problem is that you can either hop in or hop out but not really both. It's roll back skill cost so much energy that if you switch to shiro and use a little energy then there is no way to escape. So you can keep the escape and build up energy but then you're doing no damage. That is a terrible trade off in both situations and basically pidgeonholds you into saving energy just so you can escape while auto attacking or kiting, or you can use it to spike but then you are dependent on your second legend to save you, and the only legend that can really do that is glint due to its instant blind or its heal if you can cast it in time. So definitely some balance needs to be done, but if energy was placed soley on utitilities the rev would have almost constantly over 50 energy unless they were using upkeep skills the second they enter a legend or combat.

@ScottBroChill.3254 said:I don't know if I agree entirely on the blanket statement that revs weapons should have no energy cost, but I do see a problem with current energy cost distribution. One of my main problems is the high cost of utilities, specifically shiro because it has escape mechanisms. My problem is that shiro is an assassin and you should be able to hop in or out, the problem is that you can either hop in or hop out but not really both. It's roll back skill cost so much energy that if you switch to shiro and use a little energy then there is no way to escape. So you can keep the escape and build up energy but then you're doing no damage. That is a terrible trade off in both situations and basically pidgeonholds you into saving energy just so you can escape while auto attacking or kiting, or you can use it to spike but then you are dependent on your second legend to save you, and the only legend that can really do that is glint due to its instant blind or its heal if you can cast it in time. So definitely some balance needs to be done, but if energy was placed soley on utitilities the rev would have almost constantly over 50 energy unless they were using upkeep skills the second they enter a legend or combat.

Riposting shadows is broken af. The whole kit is strong which is why everyone uses it.

@ScottBroChill.3254 said:I don't know if I agree entirely on the blanket statement that revs weapons should have no energy cost, but I do see a problem with current energy cost distribution. One of my main problems is the high cost of utilities, specifically shiro because it has escape mechanisms. My problem is that shiro is an assassin and you should be able to hop in or out, the problem is that you can either hop in or hop out but not really both. It's roll back skill cost so much energy that if you switch to shiro and use a little energy then there is no way to escape. So you can keep the escape and build up energy but then you're doing no damage. That is a terrible trade off in both situations and basically pidgeonholds you into saving energy just so you can escape while auto attacking or kiting, or you can use it to spike but then you are dependent on your second legend to save you, and the only legend that can really do that is glint due to its instant blind or its heal if you can cast it in time. So definitely some balance needs to be done, but if energy was placed soley on utitilities the rev would have almost constantly over 50 energy unless they were using upkeep skills the second they enter a legend or combat.

That's why if you decide to go all in for a kill with Shiro you better damn well kill the target or at least make sure that you'll have either your legend swap or your weapon swap to staff up in time to escape.

Do you really not think that it would be imbalanced to be able to dump 100 energy into a one-trick combo, and then still be able to use all of your escape skills to disengage after?

@Rasp Sabreblade.5421 said:the energy cost on weapons is fine - weapons and utilities could use some minor energy cost reductions in some areas.

no need to remove it though.

Or give Rev players a rune with +1 pip on the 6th effect under certain circumstances.

@narcx.3570 said:That's why if you decide to go all in for a kill with Shiro you better kitten well kill the target or at least make sure that you'll have either your legend swap or your weapon swap to staff up in time to escape.

Do you really not think that it would be imbalanced to be able to dump 100 energy into a one-trick combo, and then still be able to use all of your escape skills to disengage after?

Nah, because if they balanced it you wouldn't have one trick combos which I think are a little toxic anyway. You would be able to duel. I don't know what would be better for the class, but sometimes the escape skills or 'get out of jail free' skills that every other class has access too via utilities and traits, well they seem useless on rev because of the energy cost tied to the skills making them almost unusable 80% of the time. The problem is many other classes can have the focused spike damage that rev gets with glint/shiro, but they don't sacrifice there escape skills in order to achieve it. A wee bit exaggerated because I don't think it's THAT big of a deal and rev performs fine overall, I just think the energy balance in its current iteration could use some improvement. maybe higher weapon skill cost, lower utility cost. I know this is a slightly different scenario, but take thief for example because it also uses resource management. It starts with its bar full, it can go in and blow all its initiative fast, it could spend it slowly and fight more like a duelist, it has options with its system. And even then it still has its utility bar that isn't sacrificed, so there is a slight safety net. So in theory the options shouldnt be between attack and die, or survive but do nothing for 10 seconds. It's not that extreme of course, but thats the general idea I'm getting at.

edit: we do have the legend swap which would alleviate the problems I've stated, except that we really only have two legends who can keep you alive, glint/shiro, and one of them is tied to an elite spec. None of the other legends have anything thats going to keep you alive. Jalis is the most bizarre set of utilities I've seen, mallyx is just offensive with weird cast times with UA, centaur dude is only usefull in a healing bunker build, and kalla is well kalla. Won't help you survive if you're focused but does assist well in team survival.

No, the class is pretty solid right now. Don't actually fuck it up.

I feel the same with OP, while Thief's initiative works a bit like mana, it gives Thief to spam weapon skill without cooldown, and Thief has tons of way to gain initiative back. However Revenaut is locked by double gates: to deal with both mana and cooldown.

Playing Revenaut makes me feel I only have 3 weapon skills, dont even think of pressing 4 or 5 becoz once clicked I gotta swap legend. It feels like I almost get the job done, then mana goes to zeeo, I have to swap legend and build up again, it just so unsatisfy.

You may say that Revenaut is all about choices, but actual playing it feels it makes me no choice.

@lunaticdawn.1860 said:I feel the same with OP, while Thief's initiative works a bit like mana, it gives Thief to spam weapon skill without cooldown, and Thief has tons of way to gain initiative back. However Revenaut is locked by double gates: to deal with both mana and cooldown.

Playing Revenaut makes me feel I only have 3 weapon skills, dont even think of pressing 4 or 5 becoz once clicked I gotta swap legend. It feels like I almost get the job done, then mana goes to zeeo, I have to swap legend and build up again, it just so unsatisfy.

You may say that Revenaut is all about choices, but actual playing it feels it makes me no choice.

we just need a new rune that gain +1 pip on the 6th effect, we actually have energy boost on swapping legends on invocation/charged mists

Rev does not need to be a copy pastha thief, still some skills/utilities could have slighlty their energy reduced but IMO would make class way to easy to play, and we actually have more high reward low effort classes outthere.

@Justine.6351 said:

@ScottBroChill.3254 said:I don't know if I agree entirely on the blanket statement that revs weapons should have no energy cost, but I do see a problem with current energy cost distribution. One of my main problems is the high cost of utilities, specifically shiro because it has escape mechanisms. My problem is that shiro is an assassin and you should be able to hop in or out, the problem is that you can either hop in or hop out but not really both. It's roll back skill cost so much energy that if you switch to shiro and use a little energy then there is no way to escape. So you can keep the escape and build up energy but then you're doing no damage. That is a terrible trade off in both situations and basically pidgeonholds you into saving energy just so you can escape while auto attacking or kiting, or you can use it to spike but then you are dependent on your second legend to save you, and the only legend that can really do that is glint due to its instant blind or its heal if you can cast it in time. So definitely some balance needs to be done, but if energy was placed soley on utitilities the rev would have almost constantly over 50 energy unless they were using upkeep skills the second they enter a legend or combat.

In a PvP scenario this is true but for PvE it sucks actually if you want to hop in and out because you waste so much energy with the utilities. All of them are based arround 100 energy and not 50.For PvE they could atleast reduce the cost if reposting shadows.No energy on Weaponskills would be nice too.Keep the low CD and let them generate energy if you land them or fulfill a specific task with them,like blasting a field with mace or cleanse a condition with staff etc.Would give rev that dynamic it deserves.Use weaponskills to bump up energy and use energy to use useful utilities to land more weaponskills /survive etc.

@Aeolus.3615 said:we just need a new rune that gain +1 pip on the 6th effect, we actually have energy boost on swapping legends on invocation/charged mists

Rev does not need to be a copy pastha thief, still some skills/utilities could have slighlty their energy reduced but IMO would make class way to easy to play, and we actually have more high reward low effort classes outthere.

I think they actually should have stuck with initiative. Better to stick with something they already have to deal with balancing on thief instead of a 3rd mechanism which they clearly don't know how to manage.

Utility Skills should deplete energyWeapon Skills should generate energyHigher damaging weapon skills / energy generators should be throttled by cooldowns.

Revenants should Legend Swap because they need to change up utility, not because it's the best method of regenerating energy in combat.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Utility Skills should deplete energyWeapon Skills should generate energyHigher damaging weapon skills / energy generators should be throttled by cooldowns.

Revenants should Legend Swap because they need to change up utility, not because it's the best method of regenerating energy in combat.

This. So hard this.

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:we just need a new rune that gain +1 pip on the 6th effect, we actually have energy boost on swapping legends on invocation/charged mists

Rev does not need to be a copy pastha thief, still some skills/utilities could have slighlty their energy reduced but IMO would make class way to easy to play, and we actually have more high reward low effort classes outthere.

Deppends for what rev skills arround the pip degen (like Gw1 has) kinda makes sense.If was initiative based could lead to some issues and measurement would be different, i cant imagine sustain "bonds" on enemy costing 2-5 initiative every second.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Utility Skills should deplete energyWeapon Skills should generate energyHigher damaging weapon skills / energy generators should be throttled by cooldowns.

Revenants should Legend Swap because they need to change up utility, not because it's the best method of regenerating energy in combat.

That would make Ventari impossible to use ... for some reason they start with 50% of the energy, even if starts at 100% energy and weapons could give energy back, it would be truoublesome, Rev is about e-management and not spend energy then die cause u cant cast anythign due how slow energy weapons give :.

It would be very conflicting IMO.

The amount of rebalancing of the entire class that would be needed (literally every single revenant skill, 71 total) is reason enough to not remove energy on weapon skills. Not to mention the potential disastrous results it could bring for the class as a whole (or make us incredibly OP, which wouldn’t be good either). If these changes were made it would also take them literal months (3+ bare minimum) or even possibly years to fix any sort of new imbalances or bugs. Currently, Revenant performs well in all game modes. I’d rather them work on addressing underused aspects of the class and making more variation viable.