Lack of dev. engagement on the class forms.

It seems that devs. do not like to post on the class forms even if they are the devs working on that class why is this? Are these form that toxic?

I am mostly coming from ele forms that has not had a dev post in over a year. Posting on these forms often feel like talking into a void it self not knowing if any one is reading it but other ele players.

In my opinion, the developers use the class forums as a method of obtaining feedback, which then translates into the wonderfully in-depth patch notes during a balance pass (and sometimes inbetween these with occasional tweaks). There is no need for a developer to post there, especially since they are likely to be bombarded with questions that may not necessarily help the situation.

@"Donutdude.9582" said:In my opinion, the developers use the class forums as a method of obtaining feedback, which then translates into the wonderfully in-depth patch notes during a balance pass (and sometimes inbetween these with occasional tweaks). There is no need for a developer to post there, especially since they are likely to be bombarded with questions that may not necessarily help the situation.

So why are there post about bugs on some of the class forms from the dev but not on other classes forms? There been some real game braking bugs for classes that offten do not show up on a few class forms but lesser bugs that do get posted about on the class forms by devs.

And that too much "have faith" point of view there not much work to post a we are still looking at this or that class skills and effect. Is it that hard to make a post at least once a year? Anet are not gods and they should not think there player base should just be "ok" with no views on this or that class for years at a time. If any thing type of engagement your promoting is causing ppl on neglected class forms to spill over on spvp wvw and gen forms where they should be to some point but not to the level they are now.

There next to no work that dev. will have to do to fix a lot of engagement problems on the forms and "have faith" engagement point of view dose not fly on the internet at all with how easy it is to talk to ppl of power on the web.

As well, considering the prevaling attitudes among the class forums, I'm not surprised the developers don't post there.

(Correct me if I'm wrong here ANET), but I do believe they do pay attention to most (if not all of the posts) but I also think that they pick & choose there replies very carefully too (if they feel its important enough to jump in & either make a statement or a reply to whatever subject is going on at the time).

I myself have noticed over the years that topics can indeed quite easily fall victim to "flame wars" especially when it comes to discussion over specific changes that everyone doesn't necessarily agree upon. This is probably an underlying reason as to why we don't see more overall interaction between players and developers. (At least thats my thoughts/opinion on it). =)

nothing new about this. They do class balancing seemingly completely randomly. Fixing things that aren't broken and breaking things more that are.

@"Jski.6180" said:So why are there post about bugs on some of the class forms from the dev but not on other classes forms? There been some real game braking bugs for classes that offten do not show up on a few class forms but lesser bugs that do get posted about on the class forms by devs.

And that too much "have faith" point of view there not much work to post a we are still looking at this or that class skills and effect. Is it that hard to make a post at least once a year? Anet are not gods and they should not think there player base should just be "ok" with no views on this or that class for years at a time. If any thing type of engagement your promoting is causing ppl on neglected class forms to spill over on spvp wvw and gen forms where they should be to some point but not to the level they are now.

There next to no work that dev. will have to do to fix a lot of engagement problems on the forms and "have faith" engagement point of view dose not fly on the internet at all with how easy it is to talk to ppl of power on the web.

Not meaning to cause any harm here but your response to my post is one of the reasons I think that ArenaNet do not respond often/if at all on those class sub-forums. You immediately jumped down my throat and criticised my opinion.

Class discussions are always incredibly difficult to have between developers and their communities. This is something you will simply have to accept and move on. ArenaNet pay attention to those sub-forums - be happy knowing that.

"Are these form that toxic?"Yes.

@Donutdude.9582 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:So why are there post about bugs on some of the class forms from the dev but not on other classes forms? There been some real game braking bugs for classes that offten do not show up on a few class forms but lesser bugs that do get posted about on the class forms by devs.

And that too much "have faith" point of view there not much work to post a we are still looking at this or that class skills and effect. Is it that hard to make a post at least once a year? Anet are not gods and they should not think there player base should just be "ok" with no views on this or that class for years at a time. If any thing type of engagement your promoting is causing ppl on neglected class forms to spill over on spvp wvw and gen forms where they should be to some point but not to the level they are now.

There next to no work that dev. will have to do to fix a lot of engagement problems on the forms and "have faith" engagement point of view dose not fly on the internet at all with how easy it is to talk to ppl of power on the web.

How do we know if they pay attention or not...they havnt posted in them in a long time..this is the point op is trying to make. You can say i like salads and eat one every day but if i dont post it online and show proff how will anyone really know unless you look at my fat as s. My fat as s is an analogy of there balancing and patches. It just keeps getting worse if they dont commit(post there opions on player forum post) and post....all thats needed is for them to pop in every once and a while and say 1 thing..."instreating well discus internally" or just recognition by any kind of word or sentance that they exsist be really nice.

@"Jski.6180" said:There next to no work that dev. will have to do to fix a lot of engagement problems on the forms and "have faith" engagement point of view dose not fly on the internet at all with how easy it is to talk to ppl of power on the web.

This right here is why they don't post about class things in those forums.People in all MMO's get hyper defensive about their class, race, profession, alliance, etc. choices. There is a long history of extremely violent, vocal backlash to MMO developers for making changes to any of those things that players don't agree with because it's not what they wanted. A single person descending into that snake pit puts a name/face on that decision rather than letting the company as a whole take the brunt of the backlash. Reading the players' concerns and suggestions and staying out of the actual conversation is the right choice, because fans are dicks.

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:How do we know if they pay attention or not...they havnt posted in them in a long time..this is the point op is trying to make. You can say i like salads and eat one every day but if i dont post it online and show proff how will anyone really know unless you look at my fat as s. My fat as s is an analogy of there balancing and patches. It just keeps getting worse if they dont commit(post there opions on player forum post) and post.

ArenaNet value player feedback very highly when it comes to player classes. You only need to take a look at the exhaustive amount of work that Izzy and the balance team threw into the first game to know this.

I firmly believe that those sub-forums are read by the developers. If you choose not to then that is your perogative.

if they spend day reading, they do not work. If it's like my business, there's someone (a support team) who "filters" and brings the complains to them. In some companies developers are prohibited from even talking to the support team, and problems are bring to them by a supervisor.

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:if they spend day reading, they do not work. If it's like my business, there's someone (a support team) who "filters" and brings the complains to them. In some companies developers are prohibited from even talking to the support team, and problems are bring to them by a supervisor.

This is probably how it works...but when they continuously nerf things like fire staff 2 and other ele nerfs that make no sense and then the forums blow up just because of it...then this "supervisor filter" doesn't really work...

From my observation, if you want to chit chat with the devs you post on Reddit. The devs can post where they like and that’s where they like to post when they’re just dropping in to say something. I feel that the official forum is more for official posts.

Gaile Gray.6029:Posts can be made where the ArenaNet team member is comfortable posting. No one is required to post. No one is forbidden from posting. I agree with you that sometimes there is info “out there” that I’d like to see on the official forums. In cases where I’m aware of it, I’ll ask the dev if he/she could also post here, or if we could synopsize the external post to share it here. I think it works, for the most part: the team member can post wherever he/she wishes, and we’ll do our best to share info here..Gaile Gray.6029:ArenaNet doesn’t want to adopt a “post here and only here” approach to communications. I hope you’ll understand and support the inclusiveness of our communicating as being more important than the medium on which something is said.

Go to the top of the forum and click "Dev Tracker." How many posts do you see on the entire forum? Now "filter out" Gaile's (no offense Gaile...) and see what's left.

Just sayin'...

@"DeanBB.4268" said:Go to the top of the forum and click "Dev Tracker." How many posts do you see on the entire forum? Now "filter out" Gaile's (no offense Gaile...) and see what's left.

Just sayin'...

That's because she's the Communications Manager. Of course she's going to post more on the forums than the other devs because that's part of her job.

Most players have a very myopic view of game balance, of the role of each class in the game. As a group, we are largely close-minded about what we think should change, so it's unproductive to attempt to engage in such discussions. Nevertheless, passionate profession partisans post principled positions and the devs can more easily read those to get a sense of what fans are thinking.

Spending more time in the forums would thus serve only two purposes:

• It would make some of us feel better
• It would mean the devs spend less time reading, less time thinking about the profs as they fit into the game. (And I imagine it could also lead to burnout.)

I wish the developers did spend more time chatting. I think ANet Ben's engagement in r/guildwars2 is a lot of fun for him and for fans. It helps us gain insight into the thought process. But... not every dev is that great about interacting, not every dev enjoys putting themself and their ideas in the firing line (especially since they aren't paid to do so).

In short, while it's completely reasonable to want more dev engagement, it's unreasonable to expect that it's necessary or that it's something that devs should be pressured to do.

The profession forums vary wildly on the scale of toxicity, with Thief and Necro being the worst while Engineer tends to be the best. That said, plenty of small or off-hand ideas discussed on the class forums get implemented into the game., such as the Banish Enchantment range increase, so clearly the devs are at least reading the threads.

I suspect that, for devs, posting on class forums can be somewhat like getting into a land war in an area of extremely high population. There will either be no end to it, or it will end poorly.

@TheOrlyFactor.8341 said:

@"DeanBB.4268" said:Go to the top of the forum and click "Dev Tracker." How many posts do you see on the entire forum? Now "filter out" Gaile's (no offense Gaile...) and see what's left.

Just sayin'...

I guess I have to state it directly. My point was that there are very few developers posting at all and a majority of the Dev Trackers are from Gaile, who isn't directly involved in game changes, so far as I know. So why should the class sub-forums feel left out when nobody gets much in the way of feedback?

I agree that should participate in class discussions with their own opinions on why things are this way and why it couldn't be another way, etc. But i have seen how my own posts have affected class change, so i do think the forums get read. But if you want to get the dev's attention and get a response, you're far more likely to get that on reddit. reddit seems more like the official forums than the official forums lol

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The profession forums vary wildly on the scale of toxicity, with Thief and Necro being the worst while Engineer tends to be the best. That said, plenty of small or off-hand ideas discussed on the class forums get implemented into the game., such as the Banish Enchantment range increase, so clearly the devs are at least reading the threads.

Think theres a coloration in there somewhere?

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The profession forums vary wildly on the scale of toxicity, with Thief and Necro being the worst while Engineer tends to be the best. That said, plenty of small or off-hand ideas discussed on the class forums get implemented into the game., such as the Banish Enchantment range increase, so clearly the devs are at least reading the threads.

I'm not sure what you mean by coloration, but I do have a theory. Well... a couple of theories.

The different professions are going to attract different kinds of players. If you look at the Thief, the kind of players who will like the playstyle are the ones who like to hide away, and ambush people to give them no chance to fight back. In the Bartle taxonomy of player types, these are the Killers: players who prefer acting over interacting, and prefer acting on other players instead of acting on the world. PVP by nature brings a sort of competitiveness and hostility, since the whole goal is to ruin another person's chances at victory. To prefer acting over interacting is to be focused on the self, instead of being focused on others. Combine these traits together, and you get a profession that attracts players that are innately hostile and don't care much about other people.

The necromancer might seem like the opposite, but it really isn't. The necromancer's immense bulk and minion focus means that there isn't a lot of interacting going on. Most of the game is rendered moot by sheer force alone. Necro playstyle isn't really fixed on the players/world axis, but there is an additional factor to consider: theme. By its nature, the Necro is the 90's kid edgelord, focusing on death and and zombies and curses and dark colors. This theme will attract more immature players, who haven't fully developed their adult emotions.

A second factor as to why those two forums tend to be the worst is capability. The issue with both of those classes is that they are... impotent in a way. They don't have a wide toolbox of skills. The thief is designed to be fair around its theme, so it is very frail. The necromancer has a lot of potential power, but without mobility the fight is often out of the necromancer's hands. Without the tools available to fully explore problem solving skills, these classed end up with players who get frustrated over things due to an inability to handle their problems simply.

To contrast, the best forums (IMO) are the Engineer and Guardian. Both of those classes have a very wide toolbox, which lets them solve most problems. The Guardian's focus on support is going to gather a lot of socializers, who like helping other players. The Guardian's theme of being a paladin is also going to attract the kinds of players who want to embody a paladin. Overall this means that you'll get a lot of friendly goodie-goodies in the profession.

The Engineer is a profession of science. You'll get a lot of players who like problem solving and being quirky for this class. Because of the wide array of skills that all act in different ways, the engineer is going to tend toward the explorer and achiever categories. Being capable of doing nearly everything, the Engineer will almost never find themselves frustrated.

This is all generalizations and speculation, but it is the best theory I have for explaining why each of the forums are the way they are.

Ele forums havent seen a dev post in a year....Say it aint so.

The class has been dominate for 5 years, would you like them to tell you this or would you prefer them to be as blunt as possible and tell you to deal with the nerfs that ele desereved ?

@Jski.6180 said:It seems that devs. do not like to post on the class forms even if they are the devs working on that class why is this? Are these form that toxic?

I am mostly coming from ele forms that has not had a dev post in over a year. Posting on these forms often feel like talking into a void it self not knowing if any one is reading it but other ele players.

Probably because they aren't paid to surf the forums.