First time in wing 2 and why pugs barely finish.

I'm a returning GW2 player after a year and change hiatus. I'm taking a much more serious crack at raids this time around and am part of a Raid training alliance.

My group has tried wing two a couple of times to no success on Slothasor. I was determined to beat this boss and at least try to finish wing 2. (I've joined in on one Matthias fight that was cake.)

So yesterday I joined an LFG looking for Chrono/druid. And I had just finished my commanders set for Chrono. I let the commander know I had done the fight but never finished it. He was cool about it. We finally got a full group and started the fight. One guy instadied to the poison field. But we finished the fight in one try.

Next was bandit trio. I let it be known I hadn't done this before and could leave if they wanted. Again commander was cool. I watched the video xplaining the fight while we waited. When the party got full up we started the fight it was going well until the last one. We didn't use the oil kegs I guess and we wiped. After that almost half the squad left. Eventually the commander had to leave because he kept DC'ing and he didn't give anyone else command.But the point of all this is, no wonder people never get their raids done. If everyone always leaves after the first failure even when it's close. I mean I know nobody likes wasting time but seriously one wipe and you're so upset about it you just bail? And it wasn't a busy time on LFG either. It's a small wonder people who are trying to really get into raiding like me have such a hard time understanding this community.

Sorry just a rant.

Leavers are probabaly the worst part about having to PUG raids. Even constant failes are more satisfying since at least you can gain experience. The wait times for new players are the major factor why raids take so much longer when PUGing. The only way to bypass that is to raid with a guild and people who won't immediately leave.

Slothasor is consider es to be the PUG group killed. The reason is simple, it's the first Boss where a mistake can cost the run. Some one doesn't run out with poison: wipe. The slothling Player gets pulled: wipe. Not enough cc: wipe. Ignore the Slothlings: wipe. Don't dodge/manage the shake: wipe. Eat the wrong mushrooms: wipe.

Sloth, Matthias, Xera, Deimos and Dhuum are the bosses which have mechanicus were one mistake can cost a try. The only way around this is experience and practice. It's also the reason why less experienced raid groups have big issues on these Fights.

The funny thing is we finished sloth with 9 ppl, no comms or anything, but one wipe on Trio and suddenly it turned into a waste of time. If the raiding community is wondering why it's so small compared to the rest of the game, behavior like that is it man.

The reason a lot of people left is cause Trio is really easy and it's one of the few fights where having high dps doesn't speed things up. A fail means that you could fail again, meaning a lot of time lost for one hell of an easy event.Prob faster to find another group with more experience so you don't waste time. It was not a training run right ? If you don't say : TRAINING RUN then people expect to clear quite fast (especially easier fights, seriously in trio you can autoattack everything unless you are one of the few key roles. Exception for narella)

@polvere.2805 said:The reason a lot of people left is cause Trio is really easy and it's one of the few fights where having high dps doesn't speed things up. A fail means that you could fail again, meaning a lot of time lost for one hell of an easy event.Prob faster to find another group with more experience so you don't waste time. It was not a training run right ? If you don't say : TRAINING RUN then people expect to clear quite fast (especially easier fights, seriously in trio you can autoattack everything unless you are one of the few key roles. Exception for narella)

Well is that not the description of a very interesting statistical game: if everyone wants to not lose time and find a group with more experience once they wipe a single time, they all lose even more time due to restricting their chances of finding a group by erasing many combinations of the other 9 people that were with them before. Increase that to a dozen groups and you have an empty LFG with only the sells listed, which is most of NA off-reset time.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@polvere.2805 said:The reason a lot of people left is cause Trio is really easy and it's one of the few fights where having high dps doesn't speed things up. A fail means that you could fail again, meaning a lot of time lost for one hell of an easy event.Prob faster to find another group with more experience so you don't waste time. It was not a training run right ? If you don't say : TRAINING RUN then people expect to clear quite fast (especially easier fights, seriously in trio you can autoattack everything unless you are one of the few key roles. Exception for narella)

This made my point beautifully. Most of the time I spent on this pug was waiting for the group to fill up. Honestly those who left prolly wasted more time waiting to get in another group.

@jportell.2197 said:I'm a returning GW2 player after a year and change hiatus. I'm taking a much more serious crack at raids this time around and am part of a Raid training alliance.

My group has tried wing two a couple of times to no success on Slothasor. I was determined to beat this boss and at least try to finish wing 2. (I've joined in on one Matthias fight that was cake.)

So yesterday I joined an LFG looking for Chrono/druid. And I had just finished my commanders set for Chrono. I let the commander know I had done the fight but never finished it. He was cool about it. We finally got a full group and started the fight. One guy instadied to the poison field. But we finished the fight in one try.

Next was bandit trio. I let it be known I hadn't done this before and could leave if they wanted. Again commander was cool. I watched the video xplaining the fight while we waited. When the party got full up we started the fight it was going well until the last one. We didn't use the oil kegs I guess and we wiped. After that almost half the squad left. Eventually the commander had to leave because he kept DC'ing and he didn't give anyone else command.But the point of all this is, no wonder people never get their raids done. If everyone always leaves after the first failure even when it's close. I mean I know nobody likes wasting time but seriously one wipe and you're so upset about it you just bail? And it wasn't a busy time on LFG either. It's a small wonder people who are trying to really get into raiding like me have such a hard time understanding this community.

Sorry just a rant.

I don't get this part ... people get raids done all the time. Success is a function of the players in the team.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Well is that not the description of a very interesting statistical game: if everyone wants to not lose time and find a group with more experience once they wipe a single time, they all lose even more time due to restricting their chances of finding a group by erasing many combinations of the other 9 people that were with them before. Increase that to a dozen groups and you have an empty LFG with only the sells listed, which is most of NA off-reset time.

Well you probably are right. I was not defending those who called quit. It's their fault cause if they wanted a surefire kill they could have searched for 200+li groups or something like that.

In the end though i think that the whole idea of puging raids is wrong and that content is not designed around pugs. Find yourself a guild and mates to play with.

Never understood why in guild wars 2, and MMO a lot of people are against social interactions in order to do content

@polvere.2805 said:

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:Well is that not the description of a very interesting statistical game: if everyone wants to not lose time and find a group with more experience once they wipe a single time, they all lose even more time due to restricting their chances of finding a group by erasing many combinations of the other 9 people that were with them before. Increase that to a dozen groups and you have an empty LFG with only the sells listed, which is most of NA off-reset time.

The problem with GW2 is that it's utterly unsociable by design. ArenaNet needs to design content around PUGs or else, they may just as well kill raid- and fractal-content altogether. Even instanced PvE is "unsocial". In raids, you have a very strict distribution of roles/jobs, even stricter than in any traditional trinity-based MMORPG.

@"Raizel.8175" said:The problem with GW2 is that it's utterly unsociable by design. ArenaNet needs to design content around PUGs or else, they may just as well kill raid- and fractal-content altogether. Even instanced PvE is "unsocial". In raids, you have a very strict distribution of roles/jobs, even stricter than in any traditional trinity-based MMORPG.

What is „unsocial“ in instanced pve?

Fractals and raids are pugged all the time. In training runs it is often not so important if you come with condi dps on Samarog or power dps on Cairn.You can do hand kiting with e.g. a Rev or a Soulbeast. You can tank VG as Scourge. You can bring a Scourge as second healer (which works especially well in my guild group at Sloth and Matthias).Even a casual raid group can do Gorse with 9 people and one of them beeing completely new to raids.

IMO raids can be very social, because you have to work as a team.

@Raizel.8175 said:

@polvere.2805 said:

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:Well is that not the description of a very interesting statistical game: if everyone wants to not lose time and find a group with more experience once they wipe a single time, they all lose even more time due to restricting their chances of finding a group by erasing many combinations of the other 9 people that were with them before. Increase that to a dozen groups and you have an empty LFG with only the sells listed, which is most of NA off-reset time.

PUGs are not unsocial and are not stimulated by the rest of content because of it. The actual point here, I believe, is that Raids do not merely require you to socialize but also to have commitment and compromise, which is definitely what the game was never about back then. Wanted to do the hardest dungeon? Hop in, find a group at the entrance and go do it. Want to do Fractals when it released? Invite up whoever's at the entrance when you get online and go do it! The whole game is available for teamplay without worrying too much about setting up a team so that you don't have to commit to specific times (even WvW you can hop in and form a zerg at your leisure without worry), except for Raids where this approach will simply fail even if the group is somewhat experienced.

So, in a way, people are very social in GW2, to the point most of us play with in-game-strangers during most of what we do, rather than a tight knit guild group the whole time. The price of all this openness, and that I think is by design, is that closer interaction and things requiring you to meet at specific times/compromise your real life even if by a little, become simply too unattractive. Pugs would never even be considered as a viable options to Raids if it wasn't already so easy to pug everything else.

PUG have usually very specific demands. That is why even in the wiki it says that Pugging is not he best place to learn raids unless you know exactly what you are getting into.DO NOT PUG as a noob unless you are thick skinned. This is true for most games when it comes to the tougher content. Use the alternatives. Guilds and discord communities. Plus you will get more fun out of it. The best feeling on a raid first kill is succeeding after trying with the same ppl over and over again. In random pugs you never get the same comradery even in a good reasonable group. You do not even know how ppl sound like.

@Turin.6921 said:PUG have usually very specific demands. That is why even in the wiki it says that Pugging is not he best place to learn raids unless you know exactly what you are getting into.DO NOT PUG as a noob unless you are thick skinned. This is true for most games when it comes to the tougher content. Use the alternatives. Guilds and discord communities. Plus you will get more fun out of it. The best feeling on a raid first kill is succeeding after trying with the same ppl over and over again. In random pugs you never get the same comradery even in a good reasonable group. You do not even know how ppl sound like.

I knew what pugging was going into this. I've played Gw2 since launch with some breaks here and there. My point was people are so thin skinned they leave after one wipe on a boss that was at less than 15% health left. This wasn't a prime time when a bunch of groups were looking either. I joined the only LFG that wasn't a seller and our group was the only one advertising when we were up.

@jportell.2197 said:

@Turin.6921 said:PUG have usually very specific demands. That is why even in the wiki it says that Pugging is not he best place to learn raids unless you know exactly what you are getting into.DO NOT PUG as a noob unless you are thick skinned. This is true for most games when it comes to the tougher content. Use the alternatives. Guilds and discord communities. Plus you will get more fun out of it. The best feeling on a raid first kill is succeeding after trying with the same ppl over and over again. In random pugs you never get the same comradery even in a good reasonable group. You do not even know how ppl sound like.

Imo, it's one of the reason encouraging players to set a barrier of requirements in LFG. Either the group have a smooth sailing or it doesn't sail at all. PuGs are free to join and leave anytime(for various reasons), and that effects players with intention/expectation to continue. Time consuming to find replacement(s), tiring and demoralizes the group, especially for those with time constraints.

@polvere.2805 said:Never understood why in guild wars 2, and MMO a lot of people are against social interactions in order to do content

Because you should be able to do stuff with people from your social circle, instead of having to change social circle in order to do stuff. It should be me, not the content, that gets to decide who my friends should be, because that second approach may seem social on the surface, yet in truth is very destructive on social interactions.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"polvere.2805" said:Never understood why in guild wars 2, and MMO a lot of people are against social interactions in order to do content

Because you should be able to do stuff with people from your social circle, instead of having to change social circle in order to do stuff. It should be me, not the content, that gets to decide who my friends should be, because that second approach may seem social on the surface, yet in truth is very destructive on social interactions.

If your social circle is willing to do said content, then that works. If you wanna do something your social circle doesn't, is it really that bad to get another social circle? It's not replacing your first, it's just expanding your social network.

I play raids with several raid groups. I play wvw with different groups. I play pvp with other plays too. You have 5 guild slots. It's not changing your social circle, it's expanding it by meeting new players. And in my experience, there's plenty of overlap. Out of a 50 man WvW guild, there's 5 that enjoy PvE enough to raid with. Add some friends we know or meet in raids and you have a raid static. Is this "changing" my social group? Not really.

It is you who decides who your friends are. How you play it. Who you play with. All of that is YOU.It's just that... if you decide to play with some players while being social elsewhere, you can't expect the same coordination and smoothness. You also can't blame other players for not carrying or catering to you well enough when these groups don't perform as well.

That's where the real issue lies. It's fine to have reasons to not meet all the expectations some others may have. It is not fine to expect the same results for less effort / willingness / adaptability. Your choices are yours, and so are their consequences.

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@polvere.2805 said:Never understood why in guild wars 2, and MMO a lot of people are against social interactions in order to do content

Because you should be able to do stuff with people from your social circle, instead of having to change social circle in order to do stuff. It should be me, not the content, that gets to decide who my friends should be, because that second approach may seem social on the surface, yet in truth is very destructive on social interactions.

It sounds good in theory, but in practice many of those players you'd be socializing with are people that abandoned their previous guilds/social groups in order to find players to do that content with. You can probably guess what effect that is having on those new social circles.

Your choices are yours, and so are their consequences.Oh, i agree. I just don't think the choices offered, and the consequences caused by them, are going to have any positive impact on the quality of social interactions.

Basically, circles that group players that consider content to be more important than social interactions aren't going to be all that good on the social side of it.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@polvere.2805 said:Never understood why in guild wars 2, and MMO a lot of people are against social interactions in order to do content

Because you should be able to do stuff with people from your social circle, instead of having to change social circle in order to do stuff. It should be me, not the content, that gets to decide who my friends should be, because that second approach may seem social on the surface, yet in truth is very destructive on social interactions.

You get to decide who your friends are going to be. Your friends get to decide what kind of content they're interested in. If you can't do a specific content with them, that's because there is a difference in opinions - some people want to do it, while some do not. This kind of conflict cannot be resolved by changing the content. Because ultimately these people want different things.

I also fail to see how finding yourself another social circle more suited to a particular taste or goal can be destructive. It's not like you suddenly cease to be friends with your old pals. It's like you get chances to meet new people and maybe gain some more friends.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"polvere.2805" said:Never understood why in guild wars 2, and MMO a lot of people are against social interactions in order to do content

Because you should be able to do stuff with people from your social circle, instead of having to change social circle in order to do stuff. It should be me, not the content, that gets to decide who my friends should be, because that second approach may seem social on the surface, yet in truth is very destructive on social interactions.

In practise, it's not that difficult to find social, nice and likeminded players. I have no idea why these players "abandoned their previous guilds / social groups". I didn't sign some kind of exclusivity contract with my first guild. Mondays I clear raids with my main pve static. Fridays I do WvW reset. Rest of the week I do what I feel like with whoever I feel like, and most of the time I play content I enjoy for the players that are online and playing, rather than the other way around. Friends in WvW got something to do? Lets go help them out. Raid group needs one more? Leggo there next. PvE elitist is bored and wants to duo PvP? Leggo.

And as I stated before; there are friends I have which enjoy both. You take some PvE players and teach them WvW or PvP. You take some WvW players and show them through raids. Having access to a larger social circle, here as in real life, is an advantage more than anything else. My static has 1 spot for a pug? Why not carry a friend.

Doing something else occasionally doesn't mean you abandon people, leave them and go search for new social circles unless you're "only" doing this new thing and not interacting with them anymore. Joining some random pugs on a discord doesn't guildkick you or them from their social circles. It just means you're going to interact and be social with those 10 players you're actively playing with for a little while to... be done faster and go back to playing with your other friends AND have a more social, fun and enjoyable time while doing these raids. And once you're ACTUALLY experienced at raids, they take 2-3 hours or can be pugged without voice without any issues. Not exactly something that interferes with being social with your friends.

I don't get guildkicked for talking to other players or repping other guilds. :trollface:

Your choices are yours, and so are their consequences.Oh, i agree. I just don't think the choices offered, and the consequences caused by them, are going to have any positive impact on the quality of social interactions.

I think the same about players who don't have the time or aren't willing to socialize with others yet still want the results that are the effect of this social interaction. They have a negative impact on the quality of social interactions poisoning it for everyone else. They want to be treated nicely and respectfully even through their worst days, have players sitting around waiting to play with them doing whatever they feel like yet they won't talk or interact with anyone. Madness.

Basically, different players enjoy different content. There's some overlap and some mixing and I'll just play with the friends and playing the content I feel like. And I'd say players decide which content I'll play far more than the opposite. The only exception is maybe 3 hours on monday and 2-3 hours on friday; which are still choices I make and truthfully both are very social events.

I think more casuals who don't have the time and often aren't willing to interact with other players, yet demand to join these "social groups" which they still won't interact with have any positive impact on the quality of social interactions. I seem to remember each WvW server being its own small WvW community. Now a WvW community is a non-existant thing yet... there's plenty of players. But going on voice? Too much effort. Playing daily for several hours with these same players because THEY ARE ON YOUR SERVER? No problem. Talking to them? OH NO WHAT WILL I DO.

Same for PvE. Wanting to do a training raid where others teach you exactly what to do, friendly, experienced and smooth so even the learning wiping experience is enjoyable... Wanna come discord with the other players so we can call out what you need to do? Oh no appearantly that's too much to ask. They don't even need to talk, we'll do that for them.

Wanting to socialise with the players you're literally playing with doesn't mean you find "content" more important than "social interactions". In fact, these players are trying to be social with the people they're actively playing with... And somehow that's not social? I agree it's not the same as banter with your long time friends, but it's definitely still social and as always just mismatched expectations.