mesmer has too much control over a fight

in spvp but mostly in wvw they have too much map control they can engage disengage whenever they feel like stealth swap positions basically in an open map they are gods vs mortals they need drastic changes to be at the same level with other classes

tbh i think mesmers are ok in spvp nowthat problem is mainly for wvw, and there it's a BIG problem...

@Malafaia.8903 said:tbh i think mesmers are ok in spvp now

Take a good look at condi mirage with axe/x and x/pistol and then tell me if they're ok in sPvP.

They're still meta and strong in that, but it used to be worse. We should be happy they actually do something with mesmer which is not just buffing it.

I agree that problem is way worse in WvW.

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:tbh i think mesmers are ok in spvp now

Assuming that the first mirage is rank 43 and there is a mesmer every 40 place, no doubt it's fine ...And about op, it's been since launch that thieves do that.If the same level as other class is being 2 shoted by gard's purge, then just remove the class please.

This is how I feel about it:

• Mirage barely received any nerfing at all. Mostly just stretching to it's condi damage. IE: 2 torments for 1s become 1 torment for 2s. And not much of it was even done. This changed virtually nothing about the Mirage's overall performance.
• Condi Mirage is still easily and by far the most dominant spec in conquest. It has the best sustained burst, the best sustained attrition, the best defenses, the best disengage, debatably even better mobility than a D/P Daredevil, and the build is completely anti-stun anti-burst. Where most classes are (A+ here and then C- here) the Condi Mirage is (S+ here and A- there).
• Mesmers have been playing above and beyond normalized class standards for so long that it has created some interesting effects on the community: 1. Some players who main & play only Mesmer, are quite seriously not aware of how strong their class is. They make posts "and you can tell they're being serious" discussing how Mesmer is of average capability. 2. Players are beginning to forget about the OP Mirage scandal because they've harped on it for so long already and nothing is really being done to baseline the functions of Mirage with other classes. So they realize they are forced to just deal with it, and the forum posts for the most part stop. Over the course of time, players just find ways to deal with such an over powered spec in-game and even for those of us who are more aware than others, even we begin to forget that Condi Mirage is indeed severely over powered in conquest and in world vs. world roaming. But the truth remains that, the amount of effort involved for other classes to outplay a Mirage is far greater than the effort involved for a Mirage to outplay other classes.

Some of us main Mesmer because we like the class. We have undergone some of the largest nerfs in the game

( A few examples: Moa once the signature move of Mesmer given to other classes and nerfed so hard that it is now seldom seen, distortion, blurred frenzy, clone death which destroyed a number of builds, the glamour nerf that left us basically free kills in PvP for literally YEARS, illusionary elasticity, the gutting of Alacrity and wells. Alacrity given to other classes and more )

I suffered through literally years of being an almost certain free kill to a thief, because I wanted to play Mesmer.

Our class requires more than just "swing the sword" to play and play against. it's why I like it and may be why it is a constant nerf target.

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Some of us main Mesmer because we like the class. We have undergone some of the largest nerfs in the game

( A few examples: Moa once the signature move of Mesmer given to other classes and nerfed so hard that it is now seldom seen, distortion, blurred frenzy, clone death which destroyed a number of builds, the glamour nerf that left us basically free kills in PvP for literally YEARS, illusionary elasticity, the gutting of Alacrity and wells. Alacrity given to other classes and more )

I suffered through literally years of being an almost certain free kill to a thief, because I wanted to play Mesmer.

Our class requires more than just "swing the sword" to play and play against. it's why I like it and may be why it is a constant nerf target.

you are not the only one that got nerfed and you are still the strongest class in the game

@"Ithilwen.1529" said:Some of us main Mesmer because we like the class. We have undergone some of the largest nerfs in the game

( A few examples: Moa once the signature move of Mesmer given to other classes and nerfed so hard that it is now seldom seen, distortion, blurred frenzy, clone death which destroyed a number of builds, the glamour nerf that left us basically free kills in PvP for literally YEARS, illusionary elasticity, the gutting of Alacrity and wells. Alacrity given to other classes and more )

I suffered through literally years of being an almost certain free kill to a thief, because I wanted to play Mesmer.

Our class requires more than just "swing the sword" to play and play against. it's why I like it and may be why it is a constant nerf target.

Yes, mesmers has had nerfs and used to have clear counters in thieves. (I played power shatter exclusively from launch till HoT)They also received huge buffs, such as making illusionary persona baseline. The 2014 mastery patch was a huge buff to mesmers. The buff to prismatic understanding made mesmers literally un-killable while also winning every 1v2 because of the mantra change.Domination got huge buffs in the mastery patch as well, making one shots even easier.

Come HoT we had the monster that was bunker Chrono. After that, mesmers were meta all the way through the expansion up until PoF dropped.Mirage was so strong it got banned from tournaments.

Phantasm change created the bunker Chrono 2.0 which had core guard amount of damage while maintaining a 68% permanent damage reduction.Up till today, double mesmers are often used in the mAT finals.

Sorry if I have a hard time feeling bad for you.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:-- snip --

Nothing you said uniquely applies to mesmer -- even skills being distributed to other classes. Right now condi mirage is so ridiculously overpowered, my only hope in PvP is that my team is also running the same build. Even on my conversion holo (explicitly designed to counter condi builds, mind you), if I don't pop several of my cooldowns before the mesmer has finished their first hit, I am very likely to die while stunlocked. Even a bad condi mirage just dumps conditions like they're nothing.

Every class has faced nerfs, every class has been overpowered at one point. You shouldn't cheer for your class to reign dominant, because the fall will be that much more bitter. Remember turret engi? It was so dominant and ANet nerfed it so hard that to this day, most turrets are still useless. Do you really want that to happen again, but to your favorite class?

/deleted for world peace

IE: 2 torments for 1s become 1 torment for 2s. And not much of it was even done. This changed virtually nothing about the Mirage's overall performance.When your are facing a potatoe, yes it didn't do any difference.When your are facing a potatoe with dispell : less condi stacks who dure longer = the opponent have twice more time to dispell = in practice damage done are lower and less burst = more fails to down an opponent at the right time.Saying it changed nothing about mirage performance is false, paricularly on the torch burn.

Condi Mirage is still easily and by far the most dominant spec in conquest.Cf. my first post, there is practically no mirage in the leaderboard.Among other things because it hasn't the best sustained burst, best sustained attrition, best defenses, (ok i give you the best disengage and top mobility => only for sword builds (ironically, the first mes eu on the leadeboard actually didn't run sword.)).They are not better to anti-stun anti-burst than other class with aegis/stability/ 3+ on demand breakstunt.

1. Some players who main & play only Mesmer, are quite seriously not aware of how strong their class is.I just look at class representativity on leaderboard, lasts seasons when there were 25% mesmers I totally agree that it need tuning down.Now that class representativity are, for what I see roughly on leaderboard this season, like gards(~27%), rev/engi/war(~17% each), ranger(~6%), mesmer/necro(~5%each), thief/elem(~3% each).So yeah, mesmers are probably strong at farming noobs, strong in WvW, but in PvP it seems there is easier to play or more effective.And this is not my personal opinion or "feeling", this is how the leaderboard look this season.

They also received huge buffs, such as making illusionary persona baseline. The 2014 mastery patch was a huge buff to mesmers. The buff to prismatic understanding made mesmers literally un-killable while also winning every 1v2 because of the mantra change.The 2014 shatter buff came with a cut on a third on our gameplay and It leave the profession with a gaping wound for years just because of the forum's mafia. (+ mono-gameplay during 3 years.)Prismatic understanding was up, nerf, up and re-nerf. It was op during 3 months over near 6 years and not very interesting since 3 years now. What the point of mentioning PU in 2018 ?

Domination got huge buffs in the mastery patch as well, making one shots even easier.Just take a look at how many clics are involved to "one shots" compared to any other class that can output this damage in 2 more seconds but with two times less clics.

Come HoT we had the monster that was bunker Chrono. After that, mesmers were meta all the way through the expansion up until PoF dropped.Mesmers were meta only where there was teamplay At & duoQ and mainly due to portal. Once they remove duoQ it fall drastically.

Mirage was so strong it got banned from tournaments.Players tournaments are a joke in the meaning that it volontary handicap class designed to duel so that class designed to teamfight can have 50/50 duel.If you based your opinion on thoses, that means that every class can 50/50 duel, problems : there are class who have by design teamfight use (gard, nec, etc.) in many of their skills or principal mecanics so if you based your opinions on thoses tournament and go for everyone 50/50 duel, why play a profession who can only duel when you can have duel + teamfight ?Players tournaments are only good to shine the player's ego so that they can go on playground and yell "I'm too strong". Happy for them but don't do a reference of this please.

Phantasm change created the bunker Chrono 2.0 which had core guard amount of damage while maintaining a 68% permanent damage reduction.Up till today, double mesmers are often used in the mAT finals.Agree, it was imbalanced and full of carry by phantasms and they take too long to fix it.

@other mourners :I'm curious about how you manage the most played class this season if you instant die vs mesmers. (or maybe your haven't passed gold yet because you know "matchmaking is broken and persecute me".) <3

EU #1 is mesmer. :trollface:

Okayokay, that's not so surprising. But still, there are several others. No idea how anyone got the idea they'd be underrepresented - I agree though, they are far less dominant and while strong in the meta, they can definitely be dealt with!

@viquing.8254 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:tbh i think mesmers are ok in spvp now

Balance should be aimed to the average players range, not top rankers and in the average players level, mesmer is OP.

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:tbh i think mesmers are ok in spvp now

The average player also thinks retaliation is a problem. . . .PvP balance should not be aimed for the lower portion of the totem pole.

@bravan.3876 said: There are quite some ppl in Top 25/100 i have marked as carriedbybuildMesmer what means hybrid or condi or (semi)bunker.There are 5 mes in top 100 last time I checked (with possibly 4 more because of accounts I didn't know.)).

@viquing.8254 . You are known a not so good mesmer, so you need and do play ez builds, if you feel condi or hybrid (or the semi bunker non-meta but still noobfriendly builds you also play sometimes) are not totally ez to play and carries the player, than it is clearly a l2p issue on your side.I rarely play meta and you get it why (even during the chrono phantasma hype, I wasn't playing chrono). This is due because of two reasons :

• I play the build I think it will be the more effective in a match.
• And more importantly, I know my skills limit so I compensate by build/reflexion (aka during the HoT with many DH on ranked, I play builds considering cheesy by all the right thinking but good vs DH.). So you get it, I need to play builds with larger flexibility to compensate my lack of skill.

I'm only in the second tiers of PvP player (average in ~50 to 150 leaderboard.), in the first you will see top players with high reflexes and map awarness. I don't have this actually but I hope It will improve as soon as my internet connection will be less fluctuating.

About the second part of your post, powercreep are a major problem but also the way of thinking on this forum that everyone should do everything with every profession with no disadvantages (keeping their basic mechanics.).By design you have class who have more tool to do one things whether it is +1, duelling, teamfight, CC, sustain etc.If you up some class so that they can be on pair with another to one role, you end with a class who can do 2 roles whereas the second can only do one. Instantly, the firsrt will be more represented/efficient. An exemple with necro, I'm sure all necro will want to duel every-profession but when they say that, they miss that they have many aoe/cleave and other things design for teamfight.There must be advantages/disadvantages in every build choice. (like +1 can't fight on point, duelling spec can't teamfight well etc.)

EU #1 is mesmer. :trollface:Did he actually play mesmer ?He already win some seasons by not maining it. (And as every pro, he is able to multi-class with good results.)

@the two last post :Average player have no idea of long-term impacts of their demands, they are just in a optic of : "X kill me, go nerf X."+1 to @Solori.6025 .

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said: There are quite some ppl in Top 25/100 i have marked as carriedbybuildMesmer what means hybrid or condi or (semi)bunker.There are 5 mes in top 100 last time I checked (with possibly 4 more because of accounts I didn't know.)).

@viquing.8254 . You are known a not so good mesmer, so you need and do play ez builds, if you feel condi or hybrid (or the semi bunker non-meta but still noobfriendly builds you also play sometimes) are not totally ez to play and carries the player, than it is clearly a l2p issue on your side.I rarely play meta and you get it why (even during the chrono phantasma hype, I wasn't playing chrono). This is due because of two reasons :

• I play the build I think it will be the more effective in a match.
• And more importantly, I know my skills limit so I compensate by build/reflexion (aka during the HoT with many DH on ranked, I play builds considering cheesy by all the right thinking but good vs DH.). So you get it, I need to play builds with larger flexibility to compensate my lack of skill.

EU #1 is mesmer. :trollface:Did he actually play mesmer ?He already win some seasons by not maining it. (And as every pro, he is able to multi-class with good results.)

Yes that is exactly what i mean, all the classes i mentioned being at least as cancer as condi/hybrid mesmer are very flexible in roles, they can duel, have high rotation mobility, they can teamfight, they can even def a point (even outnumbered). They have too much sustain with too much dmg combined and are good in almost everything (not talking about fb and necro, even tho power reaper ofc can duel).

@Solori.6025 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Malafaia.8903 said:tbh i think mesmers are ok in spvp now

Balance should not be aimed at any part of the totem pole.

If you balance around mid-high tier, you end up with a horrendous new player experience which results in a high turnover rate, which in turn results in the community dying from attrition.

If you balance around mid-low tier, you end up losing your dedicated players which are your biggest source of publicity and word-of-mouth advertising, which results in the game dying due to the inability of drawing new players in.

(...)

EU #1 is mesmer. :trollface:Did he actually play mesmer ?He already win some seasons by not maining it. (And as every pro, he is able to multi-class with good results.)

Yepp, played with him today. :smile: Don't know if he played all his games on his usual mirage build though. But no, it's not the best example.

Still there are quite some mesmers on the LB and in the games. I don't know all the mains this season, but still - I don't think you're denying condi mirage is meta. And I do agree it is way less opressive as it used to be - and definitely comparable to the other meta builds, more or less. Portal still fucks me up.

@Megametzler.5729 said:EU #1 is mesmer. :trollface:

Okayokay, that's not so surprising. But still, there are several others. No idea how anyone got the idea they'd be underrepresented - I agree though, they are far less dominant and while strong in the meta, they can definitely be dealt with!

Do you know which mesmer build he/she/it runs?

@Sampson.2403 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:EU #1 is mesmer. :trollface:

Okayokay, that's not so surprising. But still, there are several others. No idea how anyone got the idea they'd be underrepresented - I agree though, they are far less dominant and while strong in the meta, they can definitely be dealt with!

Just a variation with axe instead of sword. Not sure if he uses ineptitude with that tbh.

they either have to reduce their damage or reduce their out of jail free cards cant be done having both at this rate its not working properly

@jihm.2315 said:they either have to reduce their damage or reduce their out of jail free cards cant be done having both at this rate its not working properlythey reduce juount by increasing its cd to 30 what more you want its an elit skill man

@Solori.6025 said:The average player also thinks retaliation is a problem. . . .

Average player or not, I believe Retaliation is a problem because it punishes an opponent for doing exactly what they're supposed to do... land attacks.

Defenses are fine. Protection is fine. Even though I don't like them, defenses like Endure/Defy Pain or Signet of Stone are valid. They defend the player from damage.

However, things such as Retaliation, Mirror of Anguish, and Reaper's Protection violate the basic principle. A successful attack/stun is automatically punished.

A better boon would be something like Restoration: When hit, gain health.

Not going to lie I just made a Mesmer today after being told Mesmer does everything best and have played under a month's time. I managed to place mid-pip (there were 3 bar things, I placed in the middle of them labeled "Gold") Gold and have just hit rank 26 by playing Thief (Daredevil, Core, and Deadeye- Dagger/Dagger and X on each). There's a huge difference.

On Thief, I have to be proactive or I die. There isn't a lot of saving grace unless I want to become little more than a glorified Core thief (Withdraw, Shadowstep, Roll for Initiative, and Basilisk Venom with Dagger/X and Shortbow) to combat condition/burst overload. If I get loaded with more than 3 conditions at a time, and my dodge rolls are gone, I'm liable to die or have to leave the fight for a LONG time. And if I got bursted with either of my really long cooldown abilities gone, I was dead. To me that seemed fair. While I do have 2 stunbreaks, there isn't enough passive aggression or fast active aggression to make these anything more than "take a breather" stun breaks which allow me to make a new plan or try my approach again.

Today I made a Mesmer. I was going to play chrono because I'm a PvE player right now and they are "raid required", but after asking map chat I was heavily encouraged to give Mirage a try. I asked what to build and was told "whatever you want, but try to put some conditions in there". Naturally I built the Stealth for boons traitline (I'm new, don't judge me for not knowing names), the dodge for clones traitline, and Mirage. Over my last several matches I have absolutely no idea what I was doing when attacking as randomly pressing buttons seemed to kill people en masse. I ended up winning my first ever 1v2 in this game by playing IDK-what's-going-on Mirage. As for defense, there wasn't really a problem placing a stunbreak as it granted me stealth and continued to apply aggression via my clones or rolled me out of melee attacker range. If I was ganged on, pressing Staff 2 and then Torch 4 allowed me to get away. If stunned, I pressed either F3 or F4. Not once did I ever go "wow, I'm going to die". In fact, thinking back I don't think I have died on my Mirage today. And I've been throwing myself into fights headfirst. I'm getting the top damage stat at least half the time too.

Again, I don't know if Mesmer is op or whatever. But I did read a thread which I currently agree on. I think an easy solution would be to add a new CC noted as "Silence" which disables Utility, Healing, Elite, and Class abilities (I think those are the right names) and only allow you to use your 1-5 Weapon skills. Hard to code, but at least you don't have to add cast times to Mesmer Shatter skills. And that would be a tragedy. I like Mesmer. It doesn't require me to drink a gallon of red bull, tape my eyes open, and blast my music in order to survive with.