Give Base Virtues the Ammo Mechanic — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Give Base Virtues the Ammo Mechanic

Falseprophet.1502Falseprophet.1502 Member ✭✭
edited August 4, 2018 in Guardian

Since the introduction of Dragonhunter and Firebrand, I had always felt like Base Guard has been left behind as far as for the usefulness of their virtues. Resolve heals for ~1625 sans any healing power and is on a 30 cooldown without the Virtues specialization (yes, I know that the healing coefficient scales significantly better now with healing power due to a recent patch but still doesn't help).
Each one of the elite specialization version of Resolve heals for more than double the base version with Wings of Resolve being on the same 30 second cooldown and Tome of Resolve being on a 40 second cooldown with the option to add two more pages from traits. This, to me, goes against the age old argument of "elite specializations are supposed to a side grade that changes the play style of your class." If you use the final charge of your virtue, it will then remove the passive effect, allowing passives like Unscathed Contender, Absolute Resolution, Permeating Wrath to still be in effect or out of effect contingent upon using your virtue.

Here is what I am proposing (I am already expecting this to go absolutely nowhere because Arenanet):

Virtue of Justice (two charges)
Burn foes every few attacks.
Activate: You and your allies inflict burning on the next attack.
Burning (passive effect) (2s): 262 Damage
Burning (active effect) (4s): 524 Damage
Burning (final effect last charge) (4s): 824 Damage
Number of Targets: 5
Number of Attacks to Trigger: 5
Radius: 600
(Charge Recovery 15 seconds

Virtue of Resolve (two charges)
Heal yourself and nearby allies.
Healing: 1,625 (1.4)
Virtue of Resolve: 84 (0.06)
Heal Self Condition Removal: 2
(Final Effect Last Charge) Healing: 1,825. Allies Condition Removal: 2
Number of Targets: 5
Radius: 600
(Charge Recovery 25 seconds)

Virtue of Courage (two charges)
Activate: Grant aegis to yourself and nearby allies.
Aegis (20s): Block the next incoming attack.
(Final Effect Last Charge) Grant Aegis to yourself and nearby allies. Grant Resistance and Stability to nearby allies (1.5s)
Number of Targets: 5
Aegis Refresh: 40 s (remains the same)
(Charge Recovery 40 seconds)
Radius: 600

Let me know what your thoughts.

*Disclaimer - I primarily do raids, fractals, and WvW (roaming mostly) and I have a hard time imagining this being remotely overkill in these modes. I would imagine it may need to be toned down in PvP, but not entire sure if Radiance Hammer guards are still a thing anymore in high end PvP-

Comments

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭

    While I like the idea behind these changes I don't think it would be a good idea for balance reasons. It would require some changes to the two most popular traits in Virtues, likely in the form of an icd if not a complete rework which would be bad, meaning you couldn't do f3 --> RF --> f3 to break stun twice in a short period of time. Or if left without an icd, it would essentially be access to 4 stun-breaks in a short period of time which could be pretty OP.

    Charges on virtues is a neat idea though. I think a good option would be to add charges to the f1 virtue baseline since no matter what core guard can muster, double f1 doesn't have the potential to be overpowered. Charges for the other two virtues could perhaps be implemented through elite specialization lines. If we ever have an elite spec in the future that uses core-guard virtues (or at least doesn't change them very much), it might be okay for f2 or f3 to have charges.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Starting from sPvP, this will dominate sPvP to no end. It also means virtues line will be manditory in every build. PvE, I do not think it will matter much. Though if you can maintain 100% uptime on aegis, core guardian out dpses DH in power builds.

    I do not think ammo is the way to go. I think straight buffs will work better:

    VoJ, base CD 16 secs.
    VoR, bass CD 25 secs.
    VoJ, adds 1,000 toughness for 5 secs. Maybe, reduce base CD to 40 secs.

  • Falseprophet.1502Falseprophet.1502 Member ✭✭
    edited August 5, 2018

    What will reducing the cooldowns marginally do? They're still very underwhelming at whatever cooldown. They just need a flatline buff -- this suggestion is to improve. Reducing cooldowns is a lazy approach to "balance." Of course, core Guardian will take have better dps, but Unscathed Contender is such a drag to keep up on 95% of the fights in raids.

    Also, when do you not take Virtues in any PVP focused build? How would this make Virtues any less mandatory than it already is?

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2018

    @Falseprophet.1502 said:
    What will reducing the cooldowns marginally do? They're still very underwhelming at whatever cooldown. They just need a flatline buff -- this suggestion is to improve. Reducing cooldowns is a lazy approach to "balance." Of course, core Guardian will take have better dps, but Unscathed Contender is such a drag to keep up on 95% of the fights in raids.

    Also, when do you not take Virtues in any PVP focused build? How would this make Virtues any less mandatory than it already is?

    core guardian, surely is not the strongest in this meta, but it is fairly competitive. Minor buffs are okay. Major buffs are not. And while VoJ does not really matter much, VoR and VoC provide much and are instant cast.

    Example, VoR, with 1 ammo recharge 2 casts will remove 10 condis, 3.2k heal, 10 sec reg, 4 condi remove from allies. And VoC will be worse. You can chain it back to back for 8 sec stability, 10 sec protection and 2 aegis. This is flat out broken.

    And to be clear, I mainly play core guardian in sPvP, so I am talking from gurdian perspective.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭

    I think Virtues need to retain their passives even if on CD as a baseline. You give up too much to use them most of the time. Take that GM FB trait and make it baseline for all guardians and see where that goes first.

  • @otto.5684 said:

    @Falseprophet.1502 said:
    What will reducing the cooldowns marginally do? They're still very underwhelming at whatever cooldown. They just need a flatline buff -- this suggestion is to improve. Reducing cooldowns is a lazy approach to "balance." Of course, core Guardian will take have better dps, but Unscathed Contender is such a drag to keep up on 95% of the fights in raids.

    Also, when do you not take Virtues in any PVP focused build? How would this make Virtues any less mandatory than it already is?

    core guardian, surely is not the strongest in this meta, but it is fairly competitive. Minor buffs are okay. Major buffs are not. And while VoJ does not really matter much, VoR and VoC provide much and are instant cast.

    Example, VoR, with 1 ammo recharge 2 casts will remove 10 condis, 3.2k heal, 10 sec reg, 4 condi remove from allies. And VoC will be worse. You can chain it back to back for 8 sec stability, 10 sec protection and 2 aegis. This is flat out broken.

    And to be clear, I mainly play core guardian in sPvP, so I am talking from gurdian perspective.

    Not questioning your credibility at all, just trying to understand. I just don't think a cooldown reduction does anything. It continues to trivialize balance in this game and adds nothing to something that needs to be drastically reworked. Also:

    @Falseprophet.1502 said:
    *Disclaimer - I primarily do raids, fractals, and WvW (roaming mostly) and I have a hard time imagining this being remotely overkill in these modes. I would imagine it may need to be toned down in PvP, but not entire sure if Radiance Hammer guards are still a thing anymore in high end PvP-

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Falseprophet.1502 said:
    What will reducing the cooldowns marginally do? They're still very underwhelming at whatever cooldown. They just need a flatline buff -- this suggestion is to improve. Reducing cooldowns is a lazy approach to "balance." Of course, core Guardian will take have better dps, but Unscathed Contender is such a drag to keep up on 95% of the fights in raids.

    Also, when do you not take Virtues in any PVP focused build? How would this make Virtues any less mandatory than it already is?

    core guardian, surely is not the strongest in this meta, but it is fairly competitive. Minor buffs are okay. Major buffs are not. And while VoJ does not really matter much, VoR and VoC provide much and are instant cast.

    Example, VoR, with 1 ammo recharge 2 casts will remove 10 condis, 3.2k heal, 10 sec reg, 4 condi remove from allies. And VoC will be worse. You can chain it back to back for 8 sec stability, 10 sec protection and 2 aegis. This is flat out broken.

    And to be clear, I mainly play core guardian in sPvP, so I am talking from gurdian perspective.

    They can be split between game modes. For PvE none of the things you have mentioned are really an issue.

    Also, traits can always be changed in a way to reflect introduction of ammo mechanic so Virtues dont become OP. I think its understood that if core Virtues can such a change as ammo mechanic that it is only logical that their traits get ammended

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2018

    On F1 and F2 this would be nice. For F3 it should be traitable but not baseline.

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I think Virtues need to retain their passives even if on CD as a baseline. You give up too much to use them most of the time. Take that GM FB trait and make it baseline for all guardians and see where that goes first.

    This was part of the guardians initial design when the profession was created. "Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory." Either you keep the virtues for your own attacks or give them away to your team. I always liked the effect because it required good judgement to know the best time to activate its effect. While yes, the effect is prolly outdated by now, keeping the passive all the time may lead to too much 'fire and forget it, spam on cooldown' playstyle rather than looking for windows of opportunity.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I think Virtues need to retain their passives even if on CD as a baseline. You give up too much to use them most of the time. Take that GM FB trait and make it baseline for all guardians and see where that goes first.

    This was part of the guardians initial design when the profession was created. "Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory." Either you keep the virtues for your own attacks or give them away to your team. I always liked the effect because it required good judgement to know the best time to activate its effect. While yes, the effect is prolly outdated by now, keeping the passive all the time may lead to too much 'fire and forget it, spam on cooldown' playstyle rather than looking for windows of opportunity.

    I hear what you are saying, and yet at this point there is nearly no purpose to activating them; they are nearly always stronger to leave the passives rolling.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭

    Give F1 a second charge. The passive would only go on cooldown after both charges are used.
    Make F2 stronger both passively and actively. Especially the passive. There's no real trade-off here. The condi clear+little heal+boons-activation combo is just miles better than the lackluster healing-over-time the passive gives you. The passive healing should be like 2x stronger. Only thing the active part needs is a slight boost to the base healing.
    Leave F3 as it is. It is plenty strong.
    Make Renewed Focus restore on a per charge basis, same for Renewed Justice. So that RF restores VoC and VoR fully but only 1 charge for VoJ. RJ could restore charges for VoJ more freely but only 1 charge per kill.
    These would ofc only apply to Core Virtues, not Firebrand or Dragonhunter F-skills.

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I think Virtues need to retain their passives even if on CD as a baseline. You give up too much to use them most of the time. Take that GM FB trait and make it baseline for all guardians and see where that goes first.

    This was part of the guardians initial design when the profession was created. "Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory." Either you keep the virtues for your own attacks or give them away to your team. I always liked the effect because it required good judgement to know the best time to activate its effect. While yes, the effect is prolly outdated by now, keeping the passive all the time may lead to too much 'fire and forget it, spam on cooldown' playstyle rather than looking for windows of opportunity.

    I hear what you are saying, and yet at this point there is nearly no purpose to activating them; they are nearly always stronger to leave the passives rolling.

    For core guard, I agree with you. Maybe adding a trait to where when you activate a virtue you get a party wide boon could make it more interesting. (might, regeneration and protection respectably). This would likely be an issue with the elite specs as well if their virtue mechanics werent tied so closely with the new elite mechanics.

  • Indure.5410Indure.5410 Member ✭✭

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:
    While I like the idea behind these changes I don't think it would be a good idea for balance reasons. It would require some changes to the two most popular traits in Virtues, likely in the form of an icd if not a complete rework which would be bad, meaning you couldn't do f3 --> RF --> f3 to break stun twice in a short period of time. Or if left without an icd, it would essentially be access to 4 stun-breaks in a short period of time which could be pretty OP.

    Agreed. You would have to completely rebalance all of Radiance and Virtues to accommodate the requested changes.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭

    You don't need to change any traits to accommodate this suggestion. Remember ammo skills have cd between ammo use. Virtue of Courage, for, example, could have 15-20s cd between ammo use, so you can't abuse the stun break, without breaking Renewed Focus.

    That been said, I don't think this would be the way to handle things. The problem remains that for core guardian, virtues serve as little more than trait mules, with their base effects being as underwhelming as they are.

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I think Virtues need to retain their passives even if on CD as a baseline. You give up too much to use them most of the time. Take that GM FB trait and make it baseline for all guardians and see where that goes first.

    This was part of the guardians initial design when the profession was created. "Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory." Either you keep the virtues for your own attacks or give them away to your team. I always liked the effect because it required good judgement to know the best time to activate its effect. While yes, the effect is prolly outdated by now, keeping the passive all the time may lead to too much 'fire and forget it, spam on cooldown' playstyle rather than looking for windows of opportunity.

    I hear what you are saying, and yet at this point there is nearly no purpose to activating them; they are nearly always stronger to leave the passives rolling.

    For core guard, I agree with you. Maybe adding a trait to where when you activate a virtue you get a party wide boon could make it more interesting. (might, regeneration and protection respectably).

    Inspired Virtue?

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    You don't need to change any traits to accommodate this suggestion. Remember ammo skills have cd between ammo use. Virtue of Courage, for, example, could have 15-20s cd between ammo use, so you can't abuse the stun break, without breaking Renewed Focus.

    That been said, I don't think this would be the way to handle things. The problem remains that for core guardian, virtues serve as little more than trait mules, with their base effects being as underwhelming as they are.

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I think Virtues need to retain their passives even if on CD as a baseline. You give up too much to use them most of the time. Take that GM FB trait and make it baseline for all guardians and see where that goes first.

    This was part of the guardians initial design when the profession was created. "Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory." Either you keep the virtues for your own attacks or give them away to your team. I always liked the effect because it required good judgement to know the best time to activate its effect. While yes, the effect is prolly outdated by now, keeping the passive all the time may lead to too much 'fire and forget it, spam on cooldown' playstyle rather than looking for windows of opportunity.

    I hear what you are saying, and yet at this point there is nearly no purpose to activating them; they are nearly always stronger to leave the passives rolling.

    For core guard, I agree with you. Maybe adding a trait to where when you activate a virtue you get a party wide boon could make it more interesting. (might, regeneration and protection respectably).

    Inspired Virtue?

    yea.. sorry, i dont main guardian so that trait slipped by me.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭

    I love core Guard so much more than DH, and I run Zeal / Virtues / Radiance.

    A simple solution might be to add/alter a trait similar to Force of Will in the Honor spec (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Force_of_Will), except it should be straight +healing tied to Power, Precision or Ferocity. If tied to Precision for example, that creates some synergy between Retaliation and healing, though it's not hard to keep 100% ret uptime.

    Problem is how to keep such a trait from buffing support Guards even more.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:
    You don't need to change any traits to accommodate this suggestion. Remember ammo skills have cd between ammo use. Virtue of Courage, for, example, could have 15-20s cd between ammo use, so you can't abuse the stun break, without breaking Renewed Focus.

    That been said, I don't think this would be the way to handle things. The problem remains that for core guardian, virtues serve as little more than trait mules, with their base effects being as underwhelming as they are.

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @Opopanax.1803 said:
    I think Virtues need to retain their passives even if on CD as a baseline. You give up too much to use them most of the time. Take that GM FB trait and make it baseline for all guardians and see where that goes first.

    This was part of the guardians initial design when the profession was created. "Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory." Either you keep the virtues for your own attacks or give them away to your team. I always liked the effect because it required good judgement to know the best time to activate its effect. While yes, the effect is prolly outdated by now, keeping the passive all the time may lead to too much 'fire and forget it, spam on cooldown' playstyle rather than looking for windows of opportunity.

    I hear what you are saying, and yet at this point there is nearly no purpose to activating them; they are nearly always stronger to leave the passives rolling.

    For core guard, I agree with you. Maybe adding a trait to where when you activate a virtue you get a party wide boon could make it more interesting. (might, regeneration and protection respectably).

    Inspired Virtue?

    yea.. sorry, i dont main guardian so that trait slipped by me.

    Sorry but your response is pretty funny considering the sub forum and trait your talking about.
    Inspired Virtue
    Virtues now also apply the following boons to allies when activated:
    Justice: might
    Resolve: regeneration
    Courage: protection

    Might (5s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage
    Regeneration Regen (5s): 650 Heal
    Protection (5s): -33% Incoming Damage
    Number of Targets: 5
    Radius: 1,200
    This being one of the absolute go to traits before any of the expansions came out.

    Not picking on you but I now feel old even in the game.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    If tied to Precision for example, that creates some synergy between Retaliation and healing, though it's not hard to keep 100% ret uptime.

    Not really. Retaliation doesn't affect Precision, it affects Critital Hit Chance. Not the same thing.

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