How do weapon sets synergize with the Thief's "roles" in PvP?

I'm curious. Supposedly, the "roles" of the Thief in Conquest are to decap empty points and to +1 (imbalance) fights.

Mobility makes a Thief great at decapping because the faster it can get to an empty point, the faster it can decap it, as well as creating opportunities to decap the point by outrunning opponents to the point by enough margin that the decap can be completed. By the same token, mobility allows a Thief to get to an even fight in order to imbalance the fight as soon as possible, which could prevent the Thief's ally(allies) from being defeated.

As for the +1 (imbalancing) of fights, the goal is to defeat the opponent(s) as quickly as possible. That means the more damage a Thief can do to the target, the better. Other the pure damage, controlling the opponent to allow the Thief's ally to damage the target is also beneficial.

If that is true, exactly how does each weapon set help the Thief accomplish those two things, if they do at all?

SHORTBOW:I suppose it goes without saying that the Shortbow is THE weapon for mobility. It is the decapping dream. It also allows a Thief to get to a fight quickly. So its usefulness is clear.

DAGGER/PISTOL:The traditional (second?) weapon set of the Thief. While it does have non-combat mobility with Heartseeker, its main purpose is to provide damage through Backstab, Shadow Shot, and auto-attacks. It just so happens to have utility with the blinds, teleports, dazes, and Stealth.

But why did Sword/Dagger rise to prominence recently? Its non-combat mobility got obliterated when they "fixed" the jump-Infiltrator's Strike. It lacks the damage and speed of Dagger/Pistol. It does allow more sustain for the Thief, meaning it allows for the Thief to stay in fights longer, but that does not fit either "role" of the Thief. The only things I can see that Sword/Dagger brings to the table is boon-stripping, immobilize, and unblockable attacks. Before the hit to Swindler's Equilibrium, it had double-Steal, but did all of those make up for the loss in damage output?

I can understand the Pistol/Pistol fad that was. It was all about lots of damage while remaining relatively safe due to range as well as firing on the move. A Thief could be in constant motion from one side node to the other while providing support at Mid without getting trapped inside the circle of death. By the time you ran along the perimeter of Mid, your several Unloads would most likely down someone, and you could just keep booking it to the next point. In other words, its range and damage made decapping and fight imbalancing synergize. While it has lots of counters and disadvantages, when it worked, it worked very well... many would say too well.

I haven't played the other weapon sets enough in PvP to gain a complete understanding of their usefulness... like condition builds. Why take Pistol/Dagger into PvP? Can it fulfill either role well compared with any of the above weapon sets?

Dagger/Dagger seems as though it SHOULD be able to compete with the damage output of Dagger/Pistol (power-based), but what it gains in evasion and condition-ability, it loses out on practicality due to the loss of utility (blinds, dazes) and mobility (Shadow Shot's teleport).

The Rifle seems to do a lot of damage and gives safety with its range. Is it enough to replace the Dagger/Pistol's utility?

How does the Staff compare to the Dagger/Pistol for damage output? Or is it more akin to the sustainability of Sword/Dagger?

Exactly how much sustainability is worth losing damage output? How much utility is worth losing damage output?

There are good reasons why s/d and d/p are the thieves best weapon sets. They not only fit the thief's role, but they offer utility which is what the rest of the weapon sets do not offer.

D/d and rifle are weapons that offer damage and nothing but damage. They lack the utility that s/d and d/p give you. Staff is better than d/d and rifle, but only by a little.

D/P was and probably is still the golden standard for thief in PVP:

S/D is my current thief PvP setup, condi version DD.While i lose some mobility thanks to different grandmaster dodge (lotus instead of dash) it's actually really close compared to D/P since i use runes that provide +25% movement speed. if D/P set is 10/10 movement, i would say S/D is 9/10. You also lose some tricks/utility offered by d/p that really helps with decaps and +1's engagements (coming from stealth) but you gain better dmg output overall, extra boon strip and extra evade frames. Much better for soloQ.

P/P is fun to try out a couple of times but it's too weak. That build had it's time in the sun - destroying necros and all - but is's sooo predictable and easy to shut down it's not even funny.

Staff is fun, but the dmg offered is not enough to make up for the things you give up. Ton of evade frames tho! But i think S/D DD is better - also crapton of evades on demand, but better mobility and more utility.

I don't think P/P has much of a "role" anymore. It's almost completely outclassed by rifle at this point. Focusing solely on bursting down the enemy is bad because of how much counterplay there is to it which wouldn't even be that much of a problem if it at had sustainability (like it does in PvE) but that just got nerfed recently for no reason (so much about keeping the basics consistent between PvP and PvE). Unload should get a severe ini cost reduction (cost down to 3, ini regen by successful execution shoud go up to 3, using unload should also apply the "revealed" debuff) and the rest of the weapon set pretty much needs a complete overhaul (without affecting other pistol + X / X + pistol builds).

@Hoodie.1045 said:There are good reasons why s/d and d/p are the thieves best weapon sets. They not only fit the thief's role, but they offer utility which is what the rest of the weapon sets do not offer.

D/d and rifle are weapons that offer damage and nothing but damage. They lack the utility that s/d and d/p give you. Staff is better than d/d and rifle, but only by a little.

rifle has quite a bit of utility. it has mobility and condi cleanse with DR, projectile block + combo field for blinds and stealth with snipers cover, it has immob and it can outrange most opponents. because of the abundance of projectile hate it also has a very obvious weakness wich s/d and d/p dont have, but it has utility.

@Hoodie.1045 said:There are good reasons why s/d and d/p are the thieves best weapon sets. They not only fit the thief's role, but they offer utility which is what the rest of the weapon sets do not offer.

D/d and rifle are weapons that offer damage and nothing but damage. They lack the utility that s/d and d/p give you. Staff is better than d/d and rifle, but only by a little.

D/D and rifle are totally incomparable. Rifle has tons of utility, especially if traited. Long range, quick disengage with some vertical mobility potential, huge burst, unblockable damage built-in, stealth access with no counter, multi-hit burst, immobilize, projectile destruction... it's P/P++ just slightly more difficult to play.

D/D is just bad at the limited utility it offers, offers absolutely nothing as far as how the thief is supposed to play (+1/Decap), and despite offering slightly more damage than D/P in the PvP context thanks to CnD, offers it at way less reliability thanks to its entire kit being conditional on the state of the target.

MH dagger as a whole right now is in a pretty bad spot too because of sustain/anti-burst powercreep/uptime. It's easy to spam 3 on S/D to kill a firebrand with unblockables or a warrior spamming resistance and blocks while it simply depends on them messing up or pure luck most times for D/P to have any impact on said fight.

Don't dismiss the pressure that Shortbow can offer. Especially if you're running D/P DD, those poison fields can be very strong in a teamfight where your enemy stacks (say on the body of someone you just quickly bursted down with D/P).Heck, all of the Shortbow skills get dismissed so easily, but it's really a pretty damn good weapon. It's definitely more than just mobility...

D/P, well... everything you've listed, but I want to add emphasis on the out-of-combat Stealth. That allows for so many sneaky plays, it's quite ridiculous at times.Also, Gap Closer to keep up pressure and deny certain kiting.Same thing for S/D for that matter. Infiltrator's Strike can be used as a gap closer, though Dancing Dagger's Cripple often times suffices already.

Now for S/D... It's really because of the metabuilds for the other professions. Most of the metabuilds right now rely rather heavily on either Blocks or Boons, or sometimes both. Add in some pretty nasty big AoE condi fields and pressure and you should start to see why S/D is quite solid right now.It's unblockable chain is just silly now that Flanking Strike has also been made unblockable... Add in a ton of boonsteal and the easy ability to maintain pressure and bait CD's by using Infiltrator's Strike/Return (truly, the Poison when traited for Panic Strike does a fair bit of work at keeping enemies in check with their health).It's toolkit simply fits as a solid sort of counter to many of the other professions' builds.That's just assuming Core S/D (DA/TR/Acro), it's a very solid build for mobility and sustain and even has some pretty good dueling matchups, at least it has some ability to keep a node contested for a fair bit longer than D/P does due to it's improved sustain.Condi DD S/D can also be rather strong. Mostly against other Thieves who will try and fight against you despite having a low amount of cleanses. I think it's also one of the better builds to duel with against meta condi Mirages due to Lotus Trainings' projectiles and the inherent cleansing through dodges (Escapists' Absolution) and again, through Infiltrator's Strike/Return. It's a tad slower on the Mobility side, but if you play it more like a Side-node contester (Like most Mesmers do!) then it can sometimes be a very effective choice even for some team matchups.

Condi DD D/D works in a similar way, but with lower mobility, lower skill and way less options. Alternating between DB and Dodge only gets you so far, especially now when there's a fair amount of people who are familiar with the build and know the openings between the aftercast and precast. Can be played to contest a side-node, but it's far from being as effective as the S/D variant. Lacks the engage/disengage potential, the baiting etc.

Power D/D most definitely pulls ahead of D/P in terms of raw burst damage. Really, big thanks to Cloak and Dagger there. That said, it again lacks the utility that other sets do bring. There's nothing special about it other than "big damage", which can be enough in some cases, but in most sPvP scenarios it simply won't cut it. If you want to have something with big damage, I'd recommend Rifle instead for sure.

P/P... It's just lackluster both as Power and Condi. It's been lackluster pretty much since they removed Ricochet and even before that it wasn't really that good or useful. It brings damage, a blind and interrupt, but that's it. It's too selfish of a weaponset. You can work around that in a number of ways, but at that point you should realize that D/P is really just the better way to go.Definitely needs some love coming it's way, especially now that the didn't return ricochet with the Deadeye elite spec that so many had hoped it would do.I think at this point, the only way to redeem P/P and make it viable, is if they split P/P from P/x and x/P. Treat P/P as a single weapon, create a new array of skills and don't have that affect existing x/P and/or P/x builds.Maybe it's enough to rework Pistol Mainhand, as both P/P and P/D really quite struggle in their efficiency. Wouldn't really know the best way to go about it though.

P/D has never really been too good for Power setups. for Condi... It lacks the node-pressure. Where S/D and D/D condi variants can actually stay on a node for a bit, peel back off it, popping on/off it... P/D can't really do that. It also doesn't offer out-of-combat stealth, doesn't offer much (group) utility.... It's really just the worst of both P/P and D/D but combined into one, lol.But yeah, it can disengage both through Cloak and Dagger as well as Shadow Strike, but it has nothing to really mitigate damage. It also most definitely lacks burst. I love it for the fact that it's actually a weaponset that does Condi in the way that I think condi should be. It's slowly ramping up and keeps on breaking the enemy apart bit by bit. Can still be pretty great for some duels and WvW, but it doesn't suit sPvP's faster time-constrained mode.Thinking about it, I think the main issue here is with mainhand Pistol being just bad... Don't know, it always feels too weak. Not to say that off-hand Dagger is in a perfect spot though... Been a while since I played it though, I might actually whip up a build and give it another go this week.

S/P has some niche uses. If you're facing enemies susceptible to CC, it can actually be a damn good option. I've had quite a few games where I stupidly didn't really check if I swapped builds properly and I ended up playing S/P instead of either D/P or S/D... Never really been an issue to adapt to it though. People are usually taken quite off-guard by it's Stun and the rapid hits makes quite a few of them panic for no real reason. It's such an underdog that it can really work. But well... Once people are familiar with how the set works, it's quite easy to stay out of the Pistolwhip and interrupt it's precast and/or aftercast to completely shut it down. The wind-up animation is too long in most cases, so with some quickness it can be very deadly. More often then not, it stays a rather predictable set.

Staff is for most builds much more like S/D than D/P. It's got inherent evasiveness built into it's skills, as well as a blind and a bit of condi cleansing and damage mitigation through Weakness application. Oh and staff has more AoE pressure built into it.Comparing that to S/D though... S/D also has inherent evasiveness built in to it's skills, but with the added benefit of unblockable damage, plus boonsteal follow-up. S/D doesn't have a blind (well, outside of it's frontal stealth attack), but it does have access to Immobilize and thereby Poison (both meta builds run with Panic Strike), doesn't do the same thing for sure, but still (plus it should again be pointed out that Infiltrator's Strike/Return is just a damn good tool in and of itself). It's something that S/D has, but Staff doesn't, so that's relatively fair to point out. While Staff can quickly cleanse Immobilize, Sword can be used to cleanse any condition including damaging ones. Both sets apply Weakness, Staff through Weakening Charge and S/D has it on it's AA. While both can theoretically permanently maintain mitigation through Weakness, S/D has a lower resource cost on it.The only field where Staff really takes the lead, is in it's AoE pressure. All it's skills got 3 targets and Vault even has 5 target pressure. Most of S/D's skills also got 3 targets, but the main Burst/damaging one (Larcenous Strike) has a 1 target limit.S/D does have in-combat stealth access built into it though, which as we all know is a great tool for repositioning, baiting CD's or to just get the hell out of somewhere.So again, considering the current meta-builds that you'd face... I'd say the edge is in favor of S/D, mainly due to the unblockable boonsteal, but also because it can do very similar things that Staff can do, but in it's own way. Currently, S/D's way of doing things is just more convenient. Even with Staff, Thief is still not a good teamfighter just for its AoE pressure. Not when compared to an Engineer, Guard, Warrior, Revenant, Necromancer... It doesn't add anything to the table that another profession doesn't really do better, if you would've liked to play into that role.All that said, you can definitely run Staff and be effective enough with it. There's builds that allow for 20k+ vaults from Stealth, you can build TR/Acro/DD to be very damn sustainable etc. There's options for it and I wouldn't just flack it out. I've seen too many teams struggle with Staff thieves for that, lol.In fact, in a 1v1 between Staff and S/D, I think most of the time the Staff would have the upper hand. Everything it does between using skills and dodges simply hurts and does damage. So if a node has to be held and there's 2 thieves fighting over it, I think the guy with Staff will get that node. Pretty interesting to think about. Curious how Condi DD S/D would do against Staff DD, then both of them have dodges and skills that will always hurt... I'd still assume Staff has the edge in a forced on-node matchup though.So yeah, it depends on the situation. I don't think Staff is bad at all, I just think it doesn't currently fit into the meta as well as S/D does, due to the fact that S/D more added utility in it's set which works well against the professions you're facing.

Rifle... It's got plenty of utility, as has been pointed out. I've been trying to get into it, but I simply don't like the playstyle.It can be very effective in the right hands. I had a 4 game Loss Streak yesterday, one I lost because I had a terrible Rifle DE on my team, the other 3 I lost because the rest of my team got wiped by the enemies' Rifle DE who was just getting kills left, right and center. Only time I won against that thief was when I rerolled to Firebrand and put up reflects. He still got plenty of kills, but most of that was him killing himself that game while trying to gain Malice.So yeah... Bit of a double one I think.It works damn well as a newb-stomper, it's not too shabby at roaming due to Death's Retreat (though it definitely falls quite far behind a Dash Daredevil or Core Acro S/x build, over an entire match). It's an incredibly bad weapon for 1v1's in most matchups... Don't know, it's a far better version of what P/P is, much more utility on top of improved range. But it's still not up there. A zerker Soulbeast can do the exact same thing, but be more sustainable and maintain stronger map presence and pressure. Less Stealth though, which does affect the ability to make sneaky rotations quite heavily. It's not the best team-fighter, a Scourge, Herald, Holosmith, Spellbreaker or Radiant Hammer Guard is still better for that.But it can do some work. If there's an enemy team without an enemy thief and relatively low mobility, then I'd say that Rifle is definitely a good option. But so long as D/P and S/D counter it, while having the better mobility, it won't become 'meta' just yet.

So overall... Other than D/P and S/D, the weapons do not necessarily lack in utility, but they lack in the meta-appropriate utility. What our other weapons/weaponsets do, other professions and/or builds do better, or they counter them, or the utility we have on them are simply not needed/lackluster in the existing meta.

Rifle is a swap for SB for deadeye.

The common misconception is when the Thief leaves to decap a node and when the Thief comes back that the Thief imbalances (+1) a fight. This scenario is only true if there it is 5v6 where the Thief can leave whenever without consequences.

If there is a 5v5 on a node and the Thief leaves to decap, that Thief is actually playing to the opponent's favor leaving the Thief's team outnumbered. More often, the Thief's team gets overwhelmed and lose the node.

This is why it is important that the Thief is grouped with a good team composition so the Thief can actually do the decap and +1, if that is the role the Thief wants to take.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The common misconception is when the Thief leaves to decap a node and when the Thief comes back that the Thief imbalances (+1) a fight. This scenario is only true if there it is 5v6 where the Thief can leave whenever without consequences.

If there is a 5v5 on a node and the Thief leaves to decap, that Thief is actually playing to the opponent's favor leaving the Thief's team outnumbered. More often, the Thief's team gets overwhelmed and lose the node.

This is why it is important that the Thief is grouped with a good team composition so the Thief can actually do the decap and +1, if that is the role the Thief wants to take.

This is just simply untrue. If you're 5v5 into a competent team it means both other nodes will be enemy-capped, as there's literally no no other reason for a team to try to 5v5. If they're 5manning a node, then the thief's presence won't matter because it can just decap/solo-cap both of the nodes where the other team-members are guaranteed to not be defending, swinging the game in your team's favor. In fact, the whole team shouldn't even try to brute force a 5v5 when they've clearly lost their other matchups by getting into this situation.

If anyone leaves the enemy 5man to respond to the decaps or full caps the thief performs, then the thief can cycle back to the 4v4 (or even 3v4) and +1 to a 4v5 or 3v5 and quickly swing the fight at the original location, which is making the fight outnumbered per how the thief is supposed to play.

@Vornollo.5182 said:But it can do some work. If there's an enemy team without an enemy thief and relatively low mobility, then I'd say that Rifle is definitely a good option. But so long as D/P and S/D counter it, while having the better mobility, it won't become 'meta' just yet.i am not playing spvp anymore for quite a while. but can you explain to me how d/p DD and s/d core counter a rifle deadeye? i mean i win in WvW nearly all my 1vs1 fights against d/p or s/d thieves, i have to make many mistakes to lose that. obviously i am thinking here rifle replacing shortbow so you still have d/p or s/x on second set. the stealth , range and damage is just too big of an advantage that you cant overcome with mobility and control ( rupts, boon rips, weakness, poison, immob etc) in wich d/p DD and s/d core are better.or do you mean counter it by outrotating it with mobility?

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:The common misconception is when the Thief leaves to decap a node and when the Thief comes back that the Thief imbalances (+1) a fight. This scenario is only true if there it is 5v6 where the Thief can leave whenever without consequences.

If there is a 5v5 on a node and the Thief leaves to decap, that Thief is actually playing to the opponent's favor leaving the Thief's team outnumbered. More often, the Thief's team gets overwhelmed and lose the node.

This is why it is important that the Thief is grouped with a good team composition so the Thief can actually do the decap and +1, if that is the role the Thief wants to take.

Not true. Your scenario assumes that your team is already incompetent for losing the other nodes and you're painting a situation where the Thief saves the day. If you're in a 5v5 with a competent team, all other nodes will be your team-capped. In this situation, no need for anyone from your team to disengage and decap.

I mean listen to yourself, "If they're 5manning a node, then the thief's presence won't matter...", this proves that the Thief presence is negligible in a team fight because the role that is placed upon the Thief is not to fight, but to troll around the map trying to decap.

If anyone leaves the enemy 5man to respond to the decaps or full caps the thief performs, then the thief can cycle back to the 4v4 (or even 3v4) and +1 to a 4v5 or 3v5 and quickly swing the fight at the original location, which is making the fight outnumbered per how the thief is supposed to play.

That doesn't make any sense at all. If the Thief leaves to decap, his team will be outnumbered and lose the node. Even if the Thief successfully decap another node, his team will just break even. They lose one node to gain one node. The opponent team doesn't even need to respond to the Thief at that point.

When the Thief disengages to decap, the whole team is hoping that the opponent will take the bait so that they can alleviate the situation on the node they are fighting on. This tactical maneuver will only matter if the team on the node can hold off longer than what it takes for the Thief to decap a point. In most cases, this sacrifice ends up with 1-2 team members downed on the Thief's team and they lose the current node plus the node that the Thief just decapped. Not to mention, in Conquest, the team earns 5 points per player kills and only 1 point every 2 seconds from nodes. If you leave your team outnumbered, you are giving points to your opponents.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

If anyone leaves the enemy 5man to respond to the decaps or full caps the thief performs, then the thief can cycle back to the 4v4 (or even 3v4) and +1 to a 4v5 or 3v5 and quickly swing the fight at the original location, which is making the fight outnumbered per how the thief is supposed to play.

An outnumbered team is not necessarily losing. Thats what bunkers, duelist and supports are about. As long you can hold against number difference, the Thief has the freedom to roam.

You say that that a team 5x4 will simple lose. The point is how long a team must be pressured to lose.Conquest is a game about time, if the outnumbered side dies quickly, then yes Thief can't do anything. But if they can't the Thief can decap far, ensure cap at home and return to fight at middle.

Decapping IS important. If no one is decapping, then the whole enemy team will have the freedom to concentrate forces at a single point since they don't need to scatter to other points.

Those 5x* situations usually happens when the roamer isn't decapping quickly enough and the enemy team can Zerg the map unpunished.

PS: It takes 10~15 seconds for a thief to run far and decap. If a team can't survive 10 seconds in a fight is because the team is bad.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The common misconception is when the Thief leaves to decap a node and when the Thief comes back that the Thief imbalances (+1) a fight. This scenario is only true if there it is 5v6 where the Thief can leave whenever without consequences.

If there is a 5v5 on a node and the Thief leaves to decap, that Thief is actually playing to the opponent's favor leaving the Thief's team outnumbered. More often, the Thief's team gets overwhelmed and lose the node.

This is why it is important that the Thief is grouped with a good team composition so the Thief can actually do the decap and +1, if that is the role the Thief wants to take.

Considering ANet has said this is what the thief is supposed to do in Conquest... repeatedly, I don't understand what you're point is. It's one thing to claim you don't like that, but that's working-as-intended according to ANet as far as sPvP goes.

The rest... if your team can't 4v5 for long enough for you to decap or 1-0-neutral, either the game is lost because all four of your teammates are trash, or you're not playing thief well.

role doesnt change with weapon set. you +1 and decap. that's it. all else is fodder

@Crab Fear.1624 said:role doesnt change with weapon setActually it does, different weapon sets / e-specs have different strengths / weaknesses and are therefore more suited for different tasks (rifle is more suited for backline damage support while high mobility builds are more suited for flanking). The problem is A-Net trying to force the profession (as a whole) into a certain role (which is stupid for multiple reasons) even tho the specific role should first and foremost be decided by the build the player is running.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Vornollo.5182" said:But it can do some work. If there's an enemy team without an enemy thief and relatively low mobility, then I'd say that Rifle is definitely a good option. But so long as D/P and S/D counter it, while having the better mobility, it won't become 'meta' just yet.i am not playing spvp anymore for quite a while. but can you explain to me how d/p DD and s/d core counter a rifle deadeye? i mean i win in WvW nearly all my 1vs1 fights against d/p or s/d thieves, i have to make many mistakes to lose that. obviously i am thinking here rifle replacing shortbow so you still have d/p or s/x on second set. the stealth , range and damage is just too big of an advantage that you cant overcome with mobility and control ( rupts, boon rips, weakness, poison, immob etc) in wich d/p DD and s/d core are better.or do you mean counter it by outrotating it with mobility?

I did indeed mainly mean on a rotational basis.That said, I have noticed that in PvP, it's usually quite easy to get DE's off-guard thanks to the gap-closers. I might not always be able to kill them, but I can usually scare them away from the fights.In a straight up 1v1, it's very much a Skill match-up though. I am yet to run into a rifle DE in a sPvP match that could actually beat me in a 1v1, probably due to "abusing the terrain and playing like a kitten"... Aka, LoS is a bitch for them. It effectively nullifies their ability to use Rifle, forcing them onto their other weaponset. At that point, I don't think the discussion is applicable to Rifle anymore. D/P will constantly blind it, interrupt it and be able to stay in it's Melee range. While rifle is still deadly at that range if you don't use your active mitigation against it, it's far less of an issue to stay on top of it at that point.Similar situation for S/D. It's pretty easy to jump on top of a rifle DE and stay on top of them while maintaining pressure and evading their attacks.

Exceptions always exist, especially when one is able to get the drop on the other. But from playing against DE's and a couple of games as a Rifle DE, that's what I noticed.If a D/P or S/D thief comes on top of me, I'll have to swap to my other weaponset. So I wouldn't then call the fight "Rifle DE vs D/P DD", but rather "D/P DE vs D/P DD" or whatever weapons/traits are ran.Think it's a matter of perspective on when you're no longer "using" a weapon... I can see that coming off as a bit weird/skewed I guess.

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:But it can do some work. If there's an enemy team without an enemy thief and relatively low mobility, then I'd say that Rifle is definitely a good option. But so long as D/P and S/D counter it, while having the better mobility, it won't become 'meta' just yet.i am not playing spvp anymore for quite a while. but can you explain to me how d/p DD and s/d core counter a rifle deadeye? i mean i win in WvW nearly all my 1vs1 fights against d/p or s/d thieves, i have to make many mistakes to lose that. obviously i am thinking here rifle replacing shortbow so you still have d/p or s/x on second set. the stealth , range and damage is just too big of an advantage that you cant overcome with mobility and control ( rupts, boon rips, weakness, poison, immob etc) in wich d/p DD and s/d core are better.or do you mean counter it by outrotating it with mobility?

well thats the thing, everyone runs 2 weaponsets. so you cannot just compare thief with X weapon vs thief with Y weapon as they both have another weapon. usually one says d/p DD or core s/d for example but we mean d/p+ shortbow DD and s/d +shortbow core. deadeye imo shouldnt play with shortbow so you might need to specify that more. with d/p + rifle deadeye i kill most of the other thieves i run into in WvW as said. thats because well i can just 1 malice backstab onehit full marauder meta thief builds, so they need to be even tankier to survive it wich means they will deal even less damage and i got over 20k hp so they then need a while to strip me off it. if they are tankier i ususally use max range 1-2 spotters shot and till they close the gap i can already dodge into stealth. then i have enough malice to still kill them. only like trailblaizer condi ones take a little more to kill them, but they dont deal much damage to me so i can just spamm on them with rifle till they drop.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:But it can do some work. If there's an enemy team without an enemy thief and relatively low mobility, then I'd say that Rifle is definitely a good option. But so long as D/P and S/D counter it, while having the better mobility, it won't become 'meta' just yet.i am not playing spvp anymore for quite a while. but can you explain to me how d/p DD and s/d core counter a rifle deadeye? i mean i win in WvW nearly all my 1vs1 fights against d/p or s/d thieves, i have to make many mistakes to lose that. obviously i am thinking here rifle replacing shortbow so you still have d/p or s/x on second set. the stealth , range and damage is just too big of an advantage that you cant overcome with mobility and control ( rupts, boon rips, weakness, poison, immob etc) in wich d/p DD and s/d core are better.or do you mean counter it by outrotating it with mobility?

The question in the OP was if Rifle replaces D/P's utility though.Hence my answers.You're right on the comparison, but that's not what was asked.

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:But it can do some work. If there's an enemy team without an enemy thief and relatively low mobility, then I'd say that Rifle is definitely a good option. But so long as D/P and S/D counter it, while having the better mobility, it won't become 'meta' just yet.i am not playing spvp anymore for quite a while. but can you explain to me how d/p DD and s/d core counter a rifle deadeye? i mean i win in WvW nearly all my 1vs1 fights against d/p or s/d thieves, i have to make many mistakes to lose that. obviously i am thinking here rifle replacing shortbow so you still have d/p or s/x on second set. the stealth , range and damage is just too big of an advantage that you cant overcome with mobility and control ( rupts, boon rips, weakness, poison, immob etc) in wich d/p DD and s/d core are better.or do you mean counter it by outrotating it with mobility?

he didnt specifically say those weaponsets as standalone, they allways come in pairs and actually would need to answer as strengths and weaknesses of every weaponset combination. for example p/p + rifle is stupid as they share most strengths and weaknesses, usually a combination of a melee and a ranged set is best etc.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Vornollo.5182" said:The question in the OP was if Rifle replaces D/P's utility though.Hence my answers.You're right on the comparison, but that's not what was asked.

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:The question in the OP was if Rifle replaces D/P's utility though.Hence my answers.You're right on the comparison, but that's not what was asked.

he first asked how the weapons do help the thief accomplish to +1 and get around the map etc.he then gave his thoughts about the weapons starting with shortbow to be a fixed part of your choices , in that context his question does make sense. still its not the main question he askes and is only relevant as long as you agree that you cant miss shortbow. in wich case a combination of rifle + d/p would already not be good in your eyes because of the reason you would give for shortbow.anyway we derail the topic arguing about nothing in each subsequent post atm, we should stop that :3

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The common misconception is when the Thief leaves to decap a node and when the Thief comes back that the Thief imbalances (+1) a fight. This scenario is only true if there it is 5v6 where the Thief can leave whenever without consequences.

If there is a 5v5 on a node and the Thief leaves to decap, that Thief is actually playing to the opponent's favor leaving the Thief's team outnumbered. More often, the Thief's team gets overwhelmed and lose the node.

This is why it is important that the Thief is grouped with a good team composition so the Thief can actually do the decap and +1, if that is the role the Thief wants to take.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The common misconception is when the Thief leaves to decap a node and when the Thief comes back that the Thief imbalances (+1) a fight. This scenario is only true if there it is 5v6 where the Thief can leave whenever without consequences.

If there is a 5v5 on a node and the Thief leaves to decap, that Thief is actually playing to the opponent's favor leaving the Thief's team outnumbered. More often, the Thief's team gets overwhelmed and lose the node.

This is why it is important that the Thief is grouped with a good team composition so the Thief can actually do the decap and +1, if that is the role the Thief wants to take.

That was before Deadeye. It is fairly obvious that they don't intend for the Deadeye to decap and +1 since obviously it cannot compete. The recent updates to the Elite Spec further reinforce the idea that Deadeye is not made for the decap and +1 role. It wouldn't make sense for them to give Deadeye so much more damage instead of mobility if they want Deadeye to decap and +1. Sure as Deadeye, you can still do this role, but the fact that stealth is the main defense mechanism is counterproductive to that role.

The rest... if your team can't 4v5 for long enough for you to decap or 1-0-neutral, either the game is lost because all four of your teammates are trash, or you're not playing thief well.

You see my point that you have confirmed is that, in order for the Thief to decap and +1, the rest of the team has to be able to hold on their own in an outnumbered situation. If that is the case, anyone else can do the decap, it doesn't have to be the Thief. Besides, if you lost two nodes and defending the last one means your team's strategy failed. In order to get out of this situation is to leave your team in a 3v5 and two other members go out to decap. Which further secure that the node your team is defending will be lost plus 1-2 downed members. Thus by doing so, you just gave your opponents free points plus the decap. How then will the Thief be able to defend the node he just captured? He can't. His team will lose that node also.

Instead what I have observed happening is that in a 5v5, the whole team tries to bursts one target. Once that target is downed, the Thief (or any members) can now leave to decap. To pull this off, it requires good team composition and effective communication.

It is possible for an elite spec to not be optimal in Conquest because of the playstyle unlocked by the spec. Damage isn't what's needed to hold a node; otherwise sPvP wouldn't have been historically dominated by bunker builds. Stealth isn't the primary defensive mechanism on DE, either; it's just the most convenient one because DE is otherwise built on stealth attacks, akin to how D/D core plays, which hasn't had synergy with stealth-heavy/defensive play in years.

As for a team being unable to 4v5... the point of the thief is to travel the map so fast a team that can't win outnumbered can still come up net-positive or neutral in captures in such a situation. Anything can decap, but if you take a core necro to decap points, your team will have lost the fight and lost contesting the node and allowed the opposing team to start rotating by the time you decap both other points or 1-0 them. The thief's captures/decaps are meant to be temporary; rather than be a beacon for scoring points, they're a distraction to split the enemy numbers to enable the +1 as I mentioned above, or it otherwise becomes free points for the allies. It's the same reason why Portal dominates high-level games; it lets the entire team rotate to stop a thief in a 4-1 split attempt and cuts off the opportunity for creating plays elsewhere on the map.

The thief shouldn't be partaking in a 5v5 unless its team controls all three points. There is always a better play to make elsewhere on the map otherwise.

@SoulSin.5682 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

If anyone leaves the enemy 5man to respond to the decaps or full caps the thief performs, then the thief can cycle back to the 4v4 (or even 3v4) and +1 to a 4v5 or 3v5 and quickly swing the fight at the original location, which is making the fight outnumbered per how the thief is supposed to play.

Bunkers can be pressured and supports can be burst down. It's a sacrificial move for a reason because they are expected to lose.

You say that that a team 5x4 will simple lose. The point is how long a team must be pressured to lose.

I addressed that. I said, if you read what I posted,

"This tactical maneuver will only matter if the team on the node can hold off longer than what it takes for the Thief to decap a point. In most cases, this sacrifice ends up with 1-2 team members downed on the Thief's team and they lose the current node plus the node that the Thief just decapped. Not to mention, in Conquest, the team earns 5 points per player kills and only 1 point every 2 seconds from nodes. If you leave your team outnumbered, you are giving points to your opponents."

Conquest is a game about time, if the outnumbered side dies quickly, then yes Thief can't do anything. But if they can't the Thief can decap far, ensure cap at home and return to fight at middle.

I don't understand why people are using this weak argument when this is not what is happening? In my observation, in order for the Thief (or any member) to go out and decap, they need to alleviate the pressure on the team by having the whole team focusing on a target. This is why the damage that the Deadeye brings is very important. You cannot hope to lure someone when you disengage to decap, that is wishful thinking. Instead, you need to guarantee to take the pressure off of your team by taking a target down. That is the only effective and reliable way to alleviate pressure and give the Thief (or any member) the time to go out and decap.

Also from my observation, the reason why the Thief doesn't join the team fight is that they are built for mobility and nothing else. That if they join a team fight, they are a liability and an easy 5 points when focused down.

Decapping IS important. If no one is decapping, then the whole enemy team will have the freedom to concentrate forces at a single point since they don't need to scatter to other points.

That is the misconception that I'm talking about. For many years before the Deadeye, we complain about not having enough damage or the other professions has so much defense. Now that the Deadeye brings a lot of damage, Thieves want to be mobile. sigh.

Decapping IS NOT important, downing a target is. The nodes are just supplemental points.

Those 5x* situations usually happens when the roamer isn't decapping quickly enough and the enemy team can Zerg the map unpunished.

Not really. The Theif can be the fastest decapper but if your team keep losing it, then it's pointless.

It takes more than a Thief's build or weaponset to win a game and the role of decap and +1 should be given to someone else.

Deadeye has shown that the Thief is more than just a decap troll.