Sylvari Looks: Why aren't there Charr or Asura Sylvari? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Sylvari Looks: Why aren't there Charr or Asura Sylvari?

The Sylvari look humanoid because they have copied the look of humans right? Well, why aren't there Charr Sylvari or Asura Sylvari? They can grow a mushroom on their head, be born without a nose or look like their face is made of bark, so why can't they be super short like the Asura, As tall as a tree like the norn, or look more animalistic like the charr? Surely a Mini-Mushroom Asura-based or a Treebeard-esk Norn-based would be neat to see. Not to mention the monstrosity known as Charr-Sylvari.

And while I understand the amount of work this would take for PCs, I'm also refering to NPCs. Two trees are already in cannon, so why can't there be a tree that landed near an Asura settlement or nearly burnt tree near the firey wastelands or Icy wilds which create Asura, Charr, and Norn Sylvari NPCs?

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MisterCheshire.4029 said:
    The Sylvari look humanoid because they have copied the look of humans right? Well, why aren't there Charr Sylvari or Asura Sylvari? They can grow a mushroom on their head, be born without a nose or look like their face is made of bark, so why can't they be super short like the Asura, As tall as a tree like the norn, or look more animalistic like the charr? Surely a Mini-Mushroom Asura-based or a Treebeard-esk Norn-based would be neat to see. Not to mention the monstrosity known as Charr-Sylvari.

    And while I understand the amount of work this would take for PCs, I'm also refering to NPCs. Two trees are already in cannon, so why can't there be a tree that landed near an Asura settlement or nearly burnt tree near the firey wastelands or Icy wilds which create Asura, Charr, and Norn Sylvari NPCs?

    Have you played Heart of Thorns?

  • Yes. I am up to date with it, and am aware with Mordroth's relation to the Sylvari.

  • I have yet to beat the "Path of Fire" however, so yeah.

  • Sylvari look like humans because the tree grew on a human mass grave - and the community around it in its early days was human too.

    Simple.

  • Is that cannon? if so we need an offshoot and a Charr mass grave.

  • yes. Ronan planted the seed on the mass grave containing, among others, his family.

    The rest is then established in LW2 and HoT.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Sylvari look like humans because the tree grew on a human mass grave - and the community around it in its early days was human too.

    Simple.

    While I don't doubt the truth of this for our Pale Tree, it makes me wonder why Malyck looks so humanoid.

    "You know what they say: Curiosity pruned the Sylvari."

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    I recently replayed the chapter of LS2 involving Durmand's library with all those beautiful lore books. :)
    Malyck's case has even been brought up in one of those books, so I suppose there might be a little more to the humanoid look than what we know so far. It really is odd that he looks like the other Sylvari, if he really was born from another tree and if the looks really depend on the tree's location or experience.

    Unfortunately, as we all know, Malyck's story has not been featured in HoT, so we can't know for sure. Still, the existance of that book proves that there is more to that part of the lore than we are aware of atm and that this is not a mistake by the dev team, but fully intentional. I hope one day we'll get the chance to learn more, even though the actual Sylvari story might be finished with HoT.

  • well, the trees are all in Maguuma. What people lived in Maguuma? Humans. Not charr. Not Norn. Asura? Very few around Rata Sum, but not really in the heart of maguuma (with the exception of Rata Novus, but that was chak territory, no trees there).

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    Sylvari look humanoid because the Pale Tree decided to make them look humanoid. This decision was based off of the short-lived (long-term speaking) community of Ventari's Sanctuary which settled around Ventari, Ronan, and the Pale Tree. We don't know the fate of any of those people, but they didn't last long enough to remain when sylvari were born for sure.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Sylvari look like humans because the tree grew on a human mass grave - and the community around it in its early days was human too.

    Simple.

    It actually has nothing to do with buried atop of a gravesite, just exposure. The Pale Tree was exposed only to humans and centaurs and decided humans were the better form to copy for the sylvari. Though it's possible that some asura were around in the Pale Tree's youth to influence it, not many were. And no charr (sans Pyre as a hero in EotN) ever were, or norn (sans Jora as a hero in EotN).

    The question is why Malyck's tree made humanoid sylvari. The most likely answer being that it was exposed to humanoid explorers or something, but it's still unknown.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018

    While the trees can't just 'land' somewhere- the seeds were in a cave that no one knows the location of, and the Pale Tree was very deliberately removed and planted on the site of the Grove- it wouldn't be lore-breaking to have asura or charr sylvari. It's just something the devs haven't seen a need to include. It's a neat idea, but it doesn't add much to the current story, and justifying it would require enough background lore to make it a potential headache.

    That said, nature-worshiping charr were a neat idea, that didn't add much to the current story, and justifying them required enough background lore to make them a headache, and yet, we have those now. It opens the door for lettuce-ears and tuber-horns to be on the table going forward.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    As I said earlier, the devs seriously lampshade Malyck's humanoid looks in the lore book in the Durmand Priory. That is not a coincidence. There must be something more behind it than the commonly known Ventari tale. Either that, or Malyck turns out to be an amnesiac Sylvari from the Grove who just happens to have forgotten the Pale Tree. :lol:

    The whole story with the tree seed, Ronan and Ventari is so full of unusual and unlikely events, it's hard to imagine a similar group of adventurers just so happened to have the exact same idea at the same time. (Cause trees need time to grow. If another tree had been planted centuries earlier or later than our Pale Tree, Malyck couldn't have been around at the same time as our Sylvaris.)

    So, until we get further info, especially on Malyck, I keep my doubts about the Ventari version. I suspect that for whatever reason the general humanoid and canine forms of tree offspring was Mordremoth's choice, not the Pale Tree's.

  • starhunter.6015starhunter.6015 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Sylvari look humanoid because the Pale Tree decided to make them look humanoid. This decision was based off of the short-lived (long-term speaking) community of Ventari's Sanctuary which settled around Ventari, Ronan, and the Pale Tree. We don't know the fate of any of those people, but they didn't last long enough to remain when sylvari were born for sure.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Sylvari look like humans because the tree grew on a human mass grave - and the community around it in its early days was human too.

    Simple.

    It actually has nothing to do with buried atop of a gravesite, just exposure. The Pale Tree was exposed only to humans and centaurs and decided humans were the better form to copy for the sylvari. Though it's possible that some asura were around in the Pale Tree's youth to influence it, not many were. And no charr (sans Pyre as a hero in EotN) ever were, or norn (sans Jora as a hero in EotN).

    The question is why Malyck's tree made humanoid sylvari. The most likely answer being that it was exposed to humanoid explorers or something, but it's still unknown.

    But it was due to the graves under it, Ronan's family and his Dog in particular. No centaur graves there at the time the seed was planted. A NPC in the grove talks about the fen hounds and wishes that they had cats as well. Since the tree gives birth to both Sylvari and the Hounds.
    So human graves under or near Malyck's tree makes a bit of sense as well with all the murders the White mantle likes to do out in the Heart of Maguma. Also myself and a few others in game joke that the Choya are just Sylvari Quaggan from the Crystal Desert since it was once a Sea and a mass grave of sea life wouldn't be to far of a stretch.

  • The pale tree is a cleansed blighting tree that much we know for sure. What cleansed her, we do not know, yet. But those tree are almost exclusively fed dead bodies to make copies. So yes, it was the grave that was the big difference.

    We also know about 'a' cave. There could have been many, all over Maguuma - and Malycks tree might be a lot older than the pale tree. Maybe shortly before Malyck was done, it was busy producing Vinetooth.. then some white mantle guys come along, bury some victims nearby and bam. Or died themselves. Bam. Malyck. Or some Exalted candidates who did not made the cut died out there in the jungle, the tree got fed the bodies, bam. Malyck.

    There are many ways why Malyck existed and why the pale tree does only humanoid sylvari and fen hounds. But they are all based on the same foundation:

    dead bodies, ready to be copied.

    The blessed Mother had the mass grave. A mass grave without asura, without centaurs, without norn, quaggan, skritt or charr.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    But it was due to the graves under it, Ronan's family and his Dog in particular .

    Again, incorrect. The whole grave thing was pure player speculation and was even disproven before the game launched:

    The main key to the design was developing an obvious anatomy that clearly described the race as plant rather than an offshoot of human. However, because the race tightly relates to the essence of human due to the Pale Tree’s influences from Ronan, the overall form has a human silhouette. But if you look more closely, you’ll see the forms are really quite alien. They are a collection of abstract notions the Pale Tree had about what made up the human, as she really only saw the surface. They are a tree’s interpretation of humans.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20120201114735/http://www.talktyria.net/2011/08/11/sylvari-lore-interview-with-ree-soesbee-kristen-perry/

    It has nothing to do with graves.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    The pale tree is a cleansed blighting tree that much we know for sure. What cleansed her, we do not know, yet. But those tree are almost exclusively fed dead bodies to make copies. So yes, it was the grave that was the big difference.

    The Blighting Trees were only capable of using corpses because of Zhaitan's death and Mordremoth absorbing part of the death domain from The All. This got proven in the Lore AFC in April:

    The ability for corpses to be viable candidates is the ability Mordremoth gained from Zhaitan. Without Zhaitan's power, only the living could be placed in Blighting Pods, making "taking people alive" the only way to create clones. I believe living hosts still create stronger clones, however, hence the drive to still capture victims alive when possible.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/493906/#Comment_493906

    In the Pale Tree's case, she basically did what Primordus does for destroyers, which is to create copies based off of what's seen, rather than hooking them up. Like comparing someone drawing from still life to someone tracing over another art piece. The Pale Tree and Primordus did the sketching, Mordremoth does tracing.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭

    @MisterCheshire.4029 said:

    @Musaroxy.2874 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Sylvari look like humans because the tree grew on a human mass grave - and the community around it in its early days was human too.

    Simple.

    While I don't doubt the truth of this for our Pale Tree, it makes me wonder why Malyck looks so humanoid.

    Given how badly the Humans lost against the Charr, they probably have many mass graves.

    Snorts You say that like Ascalon wasn't a gigantic Charr mass grave for the better part of a thousand years.

  • starhunter.6015starhunter.6015 Member ✭✭✭

    Well according to the official wiki it still has not been disproven only unresolved due to the appearance of Malyck and the link to the Lore talk is no longer active to find sadly.
    Sylvari emerge fully formed from golden fruit pods which grow on the branches of the Pale Tree. While many scholars now speculate on the sylvari's humanoid appearance, the original explanation was that the Pale Tree based it on her knowledge of Ronan, creating an abstract image of human biology.[1] Malyck, who was born from a different tree, cast doubt upon the accuracy of this explanation, and the matter is considered unresolved.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @starhunter.6015 The wiki page for sylvari (and tbh, all player races) are grossly outdated. They were pretty much created pre-release, and anything learned since has been (poorly) tacted on like that. That line of doubt (which would be rather subjective, tbh) obviously presumes that Malyck's tree had no interactions with humans which is a foolish thing to believe knowing the White Mantle had remained in the Maguuma for quite some time (and even more so knowing about the Exalted who were originally humans until they arrived at Gilded Hollows).

    With the new knowledge of humans who went into the Maguuma, along with the sylvari being dragon minions, and how Mordremoth creates minions (and that he needed Zhaitan's magic to utilize corpses, for some illogical-but-absolute reason), the notion that the sylvari were modeled off of live humans is now the only real solution.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A better question would probably be why we don’t see any “non-human” Mordrem. We either see the “evil Sylvari” versions or corrupt Maguuma monsters.

    Given the diverse nature of The Pact you’d think we’d see replicas of all the other races as Modrem, courtesy of the spawning pod thingies.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    A better question would probably be why we don’t see any “non-human” Mordrem. We either see the “evil Sylvari” versions or corrupt Maguuma monsters.

    Given the diverse nature of The Pact you’d think we’d see replicas of all the other races as Modrem, courtesy of the spawning pod thingies.

    Well we kinda do. We see a blighted Rytlock, Mordrem Clones of Zoija, and there is a blighted Eir too.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The lack of mordrem charr, norn, human, and asura is a bit strange for HoT, tbh. It might have to do with the time span, the entirety of HoT only took place over three months and sylvari take a while to grow. Mordremoth had access to hylek and saurians for longer than the Pact soldiers. We only got to see clones of Zojja and Eir at the end, so it wouldn't be too surprising that was roughly how long it'd take for Mordremoth to create clones from newly encountered species.

    (the Blighted Eir and Rytlock that @Tyson.5160 mentions, though, were in the Dream and thus not actual mordrem)

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The lack of mordrem charr, norn, human, and asura is a bit strange for HoT, tbh. It might have to do with the time span, the entirety of HoT only took place over three months and sylvari take a while to grow. Mordremoth had access to hylek and saurians for longer than the Pact soldiers. We only got to see clones of Zojja and Eir at the end, so it wouldn't be too surprising that was roughly how long it'd take for Mordremoth to create clones from newly encountered species.

    (the Blighted Eir and Rytlock that @Tyson.5160 mentions, though, were in the Dream and thus not actual mordrem)

    Yeah I was gonna mention they were in a dream state, Eir and Garm look partially like Mordrem, with the dark bark, however Rytlock and Tybalt have no change except for the orange eyes. Same can be said for most of the blighted dream mobs except for the boss mobs themselves.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    A better question would probably be why we don’t see any “non-human” Mordrem. We either see the “evil Sylvari” versions or corrupt Maguuma monsters.

    Given the diverse nature of The Pact you’d think we’d see replicas of all the other races as Modrem, courtesy of the spawning pod thingies.

    Well we kinda do. We see a blighted Rytlock, Mordrem Clones of Zoija, and there is a blighted Eir too.

    Special, unique story-based encounters, yes. I’m talking about Mordremoth’s forces in general.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    As I said earlier, the devs seriously lampshade Malyck's humanoid looks in the lore book in the Durmand Priory. That is not a coincidence. There must be something more behind it than the commonly known Ventari tale. Either that, or Malyck turns out to be an amnesiac Sylvari from the Grove who just happens to have forgotten the Pale Tree. :lol:

    The whole story with the tree seed, Ronan and Ventari is so full of unusual and unlikely events, it's hard to imagine a similar group of adventurers just so happened to have the exact same idea at the same time. (Cause trees need time to grow. If another tree had been planted centuries earlier or later than our Pale Tree, Malyck couldn't have been around at the same time as our Sylvaris.)

    So, until we get further info, especially on Malyck, I keep my doubts about the Ventari version. I suspect that for whatever reason the general humanoid and canine forms of tree offspring was Mordremoth's choice, not the Pale Tree's.

    FYI the devs stated they had written an arc for Mallyck, but decided it wasn't able to be implemented for various reasons (story direction, time, resources etc etc). So yes there is more to the story and no doubt much of the queries are covered, although whether the story ever comes to light or in the originally conceived form, is another matter.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes. And also, they say that even though we may not get to play the story anytime soon (if at all), the lore related to it is still valid. So, whatever they had in mind for Malyck and for all the reasonings around him is still true and in the background, even though we might not be able to see the whole picture yet.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭

    There is the possibility that it is simply not in the genetic code of what makes up the Sylvari as a race, and I don't just mean the Pale Tree ones. Since Malyck comes from a different tree but bears the same human traits it stands to reason that the base genetic genes that make Sylvari possible is humanoid. They would really only come in Ausra or Charr if the trees that create Sylvari were just replicating a genetic code. But it doesn't appear to be replication.

    Basically, the Sylvari as a unique genetic race in the same way that humans, Asura, Charr, Kodan, Tengu, the Forgotten, dwarves etc etc etc are all unique genetic races. Trying to come up with some kind of reason outside of that is more work than is required to explain them. This, of course, could all change down the road if they want to but I have doubts that it will change for GW2. Introducing Sylvari Ausra and Charr into the mix will just create an in-game demand for them and that's just not a worthwhile thing to get mired in.

  • @Dace.8173 said:
    There is the possibility that it is simply not in the genetic code of what makes up the Sylvari as a race, and I don't just mean the Pale Tree ones. Since Malyck comes from a different tree but bears the same human traits it stands to reason that the base genetic genes that make Sylvari possible is humanoid.

    The trouble with that is we already have what amounts to non-humanoid sylvari. If the Pale Tree can do humans and dogs, charr and asura shouldn't be a stretch.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭

    Not sure an in-game answer is required. Just chalk it up to art budget.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    A better question would probably be why we don’t see any “non-human” Mordrem. We either see the “evil Sylvari” versions or corrupt Maguuma monsters.

    Given the diverse nature of The Pact you’d think we’d see replicas of all the other races as Modrem, courtesy of the spawning pod thingies.

    Well we kinda do. We see a blighted Rytlock, Mordrem Clones of Zoija, and there is a blighted Eir too.

    Special, unique story-based encounters, yes. I’m talking about Mordremoth’s forces in general.

    Going to have to agree with Konig. Though I suspect it’s just another casualty of not having enough time to design and implement the expansion.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The lack of mordrem charr, norn, human, and asura is a bit strange for HoT, tbh. It might have to do with the time span, the entirety of HoT only took place over three months and sylvari take a while to grow. Mordremoth had access to hylek and saurians for longer than the Pact soldiers. We only got to see clones of Zojja and Eir at the end, so it wouldn't be too surprising that was roughly how long it'd take for Mordremoth to create clones from newly encountered species.

    (the Blighted Eir and Rytlock that @Tyson.5160 mentions, though, were in the Dream and thus not actual mordrem)

    Yeah I was gonna mention they were in a dream state, Eir and Garm look partially like Mordrem, with the dark bark, however Rytlock and Tybalt have no change except for the orange eyes. Same can be said for most of the blighted dream mobs except for the boss mobs themselves.

    Yeah, it's kind of interesting and disappointing that only Eir, Garm, Pale Tree, and Trahearne are in a "half mordrem" state. Would have been awesome if the Logan and Zojja clones were too, and a number of the sylvari.

    Or at least not having the mordrem Zojja/Logan be in a green-tinted suit of armor/magitech. >.> Maybe just slap them in Harbinger of Mordremoth outfit even. They gave the hylek and saurians actual bark textures, but I'm pretty sure mordrem Zojja/Logan effectively amount to the poly-luminescent green infusion aura in the end...

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    There is the possibility that it is simply not in the genetic code of what makes up the Sylvari as a race, and I don't just mean the Pale Tree ones. Since Malyck comes from a different tree but bears the same human traits it stands to reason that the base genetic genes that make Sylvari possible is humanoid.

    The trouble with that is we already have what amounts to non-humanoid sylvari. If the Pale Tree can do humans and dogs, charr and asura shouldn't be a stretch.

    It's not a problem though. The dog is clearly a different species of plant being. It's called a Sylvan hound, not a Sylvari. So the Pale Tree can clearly make different types of species but those would be a new species of a race or animal. Thus if the Pale Tree decided to make an Ausran or Charr type plant being it would be something entirely new and not Sylvari. The Sylvari have a defined set of genetic traits and the Sylvan hounds have genetic traits. Just like humans, Norn, Charr, and Asuran. Asking why there are no Ausran Sylvari is like asking why there are no Ausran humans, Ausrans who are as tall as a human or even a Norn. Or Charr that is as small as an Ausran. Within the realm of fiction, anything is possible but within the realm of a given universe that is created most things have a defined set of traits and characteristics that defines what they are.

    There may also be no reason for the Pale Tree to want to create a new plant-based race. Just because the Pale Tree has the power to do so does not mean it has the inclination to do so. At present, the Sylvari pretty much do everything she needs or wants them to do. There is no inherent need to create a new race of plant type beings. From a fictional writing standpoint, you really don't want to go down the road of Sylvari EVERYTHING!!! Once you start creating Sylvari Charr, Norn, Ausran, Kodan, Dwarves the original concept of Sylvari starts to become diluted. Then you have to start answering the question of "ok so if there are Sylvari Charr then how come I don't have a Sylvari Tengu?" When you keep it to a singular set of clearly defined traits, Sylvari as being humanoid in nature, you preserve the unique nature of it while at the same time not having to worry needing to create a bunch more or answer the question of why there are 6 kinds of Sylvari but not this 7th and 8th kind (everyone has their own favorite race that I'm sure they would love to combine with Sylvari that goes well beyond Ausra and Charr).

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:
    It's not a problem though. The dog is clearly a different species of plant being. It's called a Sylvan hound, not a Sylvari. So the Pale Tree can clearly make different types of species but those would be a new species of a race or animal. Thus if the Pale Tree decided to make an Ausran or Charr type plant being it would be something entirely new and not Sylvari.

    That is splitting hairs considering other dragon minions. Mordrem can be be of hylek or saurian but they're still mordrem. Icebrood can be of troll, wolf, or norn, but they're still icebrood.

    Whether they are actively called "sylvari" or not, the sylvan hounds and sylvari are both mordrem who do not serve Mordremoth, in the end; and just as masterless risen are called unchained regardless of original species, it can be said all "purified mordrem" are sylvari.

    Otherwise, you're argument is effectively saying Malyck wouldn't be a sylvari, either, because sylvari are only "mordrem created by the Pale Tree which are designed after humans."

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Asking why there are no Ausran Sylvari is like asking why there are no Ausran humans, Ausrans who are as tall as a human or even a Norn.

    It is more like asking why there are no risen dredge, or icebrood wurms, or branded harpies, due to the magical origins, rather than biological origins, of sylvari.

    Sylvari are, ultimately, just "mordrem who were created by a purified Blighting Tree". Not a biologically distinct species like charr, asura, humans, or even treants and jacarandas.

  • Well I thought it makes sense. The blighting trees make what they "know". They had no Charr or Asura as blueprints when they started. So like the Pale Tree, they make things that look vaguely human, or like the other critters that are very common in that areas.
    I suppose if they had won, they might have started to make Modrem similar to the species that invaded the Jungle during the fight against Modremoth.

  • well... I just had an elightened moment.

    There are mordrem that are not human or animal based. In fact, they look so much like the original that a lot of people probably assume them to be other players:
    mordrem menders

    They look like asura, they behave like asura, they are asura.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    well... I just had an elightened moment.

    There are mordrem that are not human or animal based. In fact, they look so much like the original that a lot of people probably assume them to be other players:
    mordrem menders

    They look like asura, they behave like asura, they are asura.

    Fun fact: Mordrem Menders and Mordrem Grunts use troll rigging, and the latter are even sometimes called trolls.

    Mordrem Trolls, on the other hand, are actual trolls that were corrupted (same with the wolves).

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:
    It's not a problem though. The dog is clearly a different species of plant being. It's called a Sylvan hound, not a Sylvari. So the Pale Tree can clearly make different types of species but those would be a new species of a race or animal. Thus if the Pale Tree decided to make an Ausran or Charr type plant being it would be something entirely new and not Sylvari.

    That is splitting hairs considering other dragon minions. Mordrem can be be of hylek or saurian but they're still mordrem. Icebrood can be of troll, wolf, or norn, but they're still icebrood.

    Whether they are actively called "sylvari" or not, the sylvan hounds and sylvari are both mordrem who do not serve Mordremoth, in the end; and just as masterless risen are called unchained regardless of original species, it can be said all "purified mordrem" are sylvari.

    Otherwise, you're argument is effectively saying Malyck wouldn't be a sylvari, either, because sylvari are only "mordrem created by the Pale Tree which are designed after humans."

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Asking why there are no Ausran Sylvari is like asking why there are no Ausran humans, Ausrans who are as tall as a human or even a Norn.

    It is more like asking why there are no risen dredge, or icebrood wurms, or branded harpies, due to the magical origins, rather than biological origins, of sylvari.

    Sylvari are, ultimately, just "mordrem who were created by a purified Blighting Tree". Not a biologically distinct species like charr, asura, humans, or even treants and jacarandas.

    No, not splitting hairs. Mordrem are created, not born. There isn't a Mordrem race, in the same way that there isn't a Risen race. They are all created via the magic of their respective Elder Dragon. The Sylvari, on the other hand, are a unique race. They are born, not through the means common to humans but they are still born. The same applies to Icebrood. They are created, not born. Thus you can't compare them to Sylvari as a point of reference. Claiming that Sylvan Hounds and Sylvari are Mordrem is not supported by the material as, and this is important, Mordrem are creatures that are created not born. While the Sylvari were originally created to be minions of they were not created as Mordrem. If they were they would be called as such. When a Sylvari becomes a Mordrem they take on clearly distinct traits that separate them from being Sylvari, just like everything else that is corrupted into a Mordrem.

    Just because they have a similar genesis does not mean you can lump them all into the same category and call it a day. Thus my argument does say Malyck can't be Sylvari. He clearly is. The fact that he came from a separate Pale Tree indicates that the Sylvari are their own unique race and are not just another brand of Mordrem. Sylvari are 100% a unique and distinct biological species.

    If ANet wanted them to just be Mordrem they would have labeled them as such. They have maintained a clear distinction.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:
    Claiming that Sylvan Hounds and Sylvari are Mordrem is not supported by the material as, and this is important, Mordrem are creatures that are created not born.

    Sylvari are created too, not born. That's why when a pod opens up to reveal a sylvari, it isn't said that the sylvari is born but they "awaken". Mordrem are created in pods just like sylvari are, though the form those pods take differ. For example, if you play the final HoT story instance, the mordrem pop out of the blighting pods that are all around the area.

    @Dace.8173 said:
    While the Sylvari were originally created to be minions of they were not created as Mordrem. If they were they would be called as such. When a Sylvari becomes a Mordrem they take on clearly distinct traits that separate them from being Sylvari, just like everything else that is corrupted into a Mordrem.

    Sylvari actually are never corrupted; they never "become mordrem" - thanks to the Dream. They succumbed to whispers, but those whispers were not corruption, and when those whispers cease the sylvari can return to their original selves. But that's another topic entirely.

    The reason sylvari appearances change is already confirmed to be due to the sylvari's own ability to change appearances, which we see with Canach, Scarlet, and Caithe in the main story (though those who didn't play S1 wouldn't know such for Canach very well).

    Sylvari were originally meant to be minions in that they were created by a purified Blighting Tree; the process of their creation is ultimately the same as with mordrem, though less hostile. They are as much mordrem as unchained are risen and as Crystal Guardians, Crystal Spiders, and Facets are branded; the difference between the two groups is merely the question of "are they enslaved to an Elder Dragon?"

    @Dace.8173 said:
    If ANet wanted them to just be Mordrem they would have labeled them as such. They have maintained a clear distinction.

    Indeed, and that distinction is the same that exists between risen and unchained. One is enslaved to an Elder Dragon's will, the other isn't. It's why they went and started calling post-PS risen "unchained". Though unchained aren't necessarily "purified" as sylvari are, but ended up in a similar state since without an Elder Dragon to enslave their will, they've effectively become autonomous - just as sylvari are.

  • I think the biggest reason Sylvari are humanoid (and why they continue to be humanoid) is that there has been no "need" for additional blueprints since the first try was so successful. Nature operates on a system of energy costs, and for an apple tree to decide to grow bananas would be a massive energy sink.

    Another example? A cereal factory. A cereal factory could conceivably make a new type of cereal on their line, but it would require the purchase of new machine parts and different ingredients. If the current cereal is selling well enough/fulfilling the needs of the company, there is no demand for a new type and therefore no motivation to pay the cost.

    Like new cereal, weirdly-shaped Sylvari are a potentiality in the game, but their existence is currently without motivation. Some roleplayers have danced around this by using magic spells, potions, or the plant-forming abilities of Sylvari Menders and Shapers (Sylvan doctors, architects and landscapers) to add peculiar characteristics to their characters. So, while the Pale Tree herself may not invest heaps of effort into creating things like Charr and Asura, individual Sylvari may seek the adjustments themselves.

    The question isn't really 'why aren't' so much as 'why would'.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The way I see the Pale Tree and the Blighting trees are like a photo copier . You can take an image on a piece of paper and make a bunch of copies. Now what if that photo copier was sentient and had free will, like the Pale Tree free of Mordremoth’s control. The Pale Tree has the abilities like the Blighting trees, but instead it wants to make its own creation, the Sylvari, based off of other Bipedal entities. What’s rather curious is how Sylvari’s have souls, but that’s s rather complicated topic, that Inprefer not to go into.

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