The Next Elite Spec; What Is Engineer Missing? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Next Elite Spec; What Is Engineer Missing?

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  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naix.8156 said:
    People need to keep in mind when speculating on or creating new elite specs that the design has some constraints :

    1. Copy-Pasta is Paramount
      The concept for elite specs seems to be "Class X through the lens of Class Y." At the skills and traits level of detail the vast majority are taken from existing sources and tweaked.

    2. Displace to Make Play Space
      The elite specs of a new expac seem to be designed with a base power level and efficacy makes the previous versions substandard. From an over arching perspective the new elite spec meta conquers if not hard counters the current meta (with respect to competitive game modes).

    3. Power Creep Required
      It doesn't feel good to pay money for the new hotness only to get owned by the existing specs. To this end, the new elite spec needs to launch at absurd power levels and/or existing specs will get a last minute nerf.

    As interesting as these player created elite spec ideas are to read, they generally aren't even in the ballpark when it comes to a possibility for implementation. Perhaps a better approach to suggesting or brainstorming new elites would be to keep the above constraints in mind.

    Woah... I don't think even Anet design by those standards. If it were true, the power creep disaster we currently have would be and example of great balance in comparison...

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭
    edited October 11, 2018

    Just a joke idea because Xenoblade...

    Two-handed sword (aka Greatsword) Elite Spec that use a mechanic called Core mechanic.

    There will be 3 Cores being Power, Speed, and Guard with each Core giving the equipped Main Weapon its own Unique skills and replacing the Default weapon skills from Core Engineer. Weapon Swap button is used to switch between the three cores.

    Power (red core) - Heavy damage skill/Small AoE for focused damage
    Speed (blue core) - Fast attack skills/Large AoE for large mob killing.
    Guard (green core) - Medium attack skills/Utility skill that provide more barriers when used to the Engineer and his/her party members nearby.

    The Main Weapon will also emits small red, blue, or green electric energy that reflect the type of Core being used.

    Main Elite mechanic will be Overdrive where the Engineer will temporarily overcharge the Core to perform even stronger versions of the Main Weapon's Core skills with more flashier animation to show the attacks being in overdrive.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    @Naix.8156 said:
    People need to keep in mind when speculating on or creating new elite specs that the design has some constraints :

    1. Copy-Pasta is Paramount
      The concept for elite specs seems to be "Class X through the lens of Class Y." At the skills and traits level of detail the vast majority are taken from existing sources and tweaked.

    2. Displace to Make Play Space
      The elite specs of a new expac seem to be designed with a base power level and efficacy makes the previous versions substandard. From an over arching perspective the new elite spec meta conquers if not hard counters the current meta (with respect to competitive game modes).

    3. Power Creep Required
      It doesn't feel good to pay money for the new hotness only to get owned by the existing specs. To this end, the new elite spec needs to launch at absurd power levels and/or existing specs will get a last minute nerf.

    As interesting as these player created elite spec ideas are to read, they generally aren't even in the ballpark when it comes to a possibility for implementation. Perhaps a better approach to suggesting or brainstorming new elites would be to keep the above constraints in mind.

    In my opinion there's no harm at all in asking for the impossible because ultimately we're going to be shoveled whatever hot mess the unlucky dev who picked the short straw for Engineers that cycle decided to dash off at the last minute to meet the minimum requirements as given by their boss before going back to working on the things they actually want to instead.

    That's just how Holo comes across- 'Couldn't be kitten to do a proper elite so here- have something that's overdone, mindnumbingly easy to play, and just shut up about how broken the rest of the profession is. Besides, with this you shouldn't need or want to play core again anyway.'

  • they're missing a condi or support themed spec, so I'm speculating on that.

  • Houston we have a problem...
    We expect a ranged weapon for the new elite..
    But that does kill all options to play the new profession as a mellee...

    What the engineer still needs most is a new standard weapon skill Thats mellee
    And a new basic non elite skill tree
    I think this goes for almost all classes..
    I think open world season 5 would be a great time to introduce this..
    Maybe even with some utillity and an elite skill

    If they would like add dagger as a new mainhand weapon for thieves, this would solve the problem of a new ranged weapon with the next elite..

    For the next elite, there is several options.

    A longbow engineer with mechanical traps..
    Would work very much as the engineer version of John Rambo.
    With F5 skill being a getling gun(kit)
    But affraid it would play to much like a dragonhunter..

    An other option is a teleporter based engineer..
    That uses a device to tap into leyline energy to teleport himself around, or to teleport engineering stuff to him..
    I could see them teleport a device with a field of darkness..

    And then there is the old robotic team..
    summing robots to help out in combat..
    Or having a combat suit aplied trough the F5 skil..
    It would be more of an asura theme...

    In general i hope the F5 skill will from now on allways be a kit..

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lordbachus.6091 said:
    Houston we have a problem...
    We expect a ranged weapon for the new elite..
    But that does kill all options to play the new profession as a mellee...

    What the engineer still needs most is a new standard weapon skill Thats mellee
    And a new basic non elite skill tree
    I think this goes for almost all classes..
    I think open world season 5 would be a great time to introduce this..
    Maybe even with some utillity and an elite skill

    You have heard of scrapper and holo right? Both have melee weapons as their new weapons.

    @lordbachus.6091 said:
    If they would like add dagger as a new mainhand weapon for thieves, this would solve the problem of a new ranged weapon with the next elite..

    For the next elite, there is several options.

    A longbow engineer with mechanical traps..
    Would work very much as the engineer version of John Rambo.
    With F5 skill being a getling gun(kit)
    But affraid it would play to much like a dragonhunter..

    I'm so confused by this.

    @lordbachus.6091 said:
    An other option is a teleporter based engineer..
    That uses a device to tap into leyline energy to teleport himself around, or to teleport engineering stuff to him..
    I could see them teleport a device with a field of darkness..

    As much as I want engineer to keep reflecting Valve games... let's not.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What the engineer still needs most is a new standard weapon skill Thats mellee
    And a new basic non elite skill tree
    I think this goes for almost all classes..
    I think open world season 5 would be a great time to introduce this..
    Maybe even with some utillity and an elite skill

    I really don't see them adding new basic skills or an additional weapon. It's an ugly can of worms to open that would cause more grief for them than paying off. The other professions would argue that they need new skills and new core weapons too and there is no logical reason why they would want to say yes to all of them (such as Warrior, Guardian, or Ranger). However, gamers being gamers if one faction gets something then folks feel they should have something too. It honestly doesn't matter if their request is reasonable or not, or even logical. So unless they were prepared to give everyone a new set of skills and weapons there is no point in giving just one or two professions new skills and weapons as the vast majority of your customers would likely be upset that they got left out. In my experince, gamers in a faction based game are not as rational as they need to be.

    Which is why they created Elite specs in the first place. Then they can give everyone new weapons and new skills. Everyone gets a new toy, everyone remains happy. They've already said that Elite specs is how they want to change professions and I don't see them changing their mind on that as it would undermine their justification for them and any future use of them. Folks would argue why have an elite when these things could just be added to core.

    I also don't see them adding a ranged Elite as all that problematic as if a person wants to play a melee based character they have Holosmith and Scrapper.

    A longbow engineer with mechanical traps..
    Would work very much as the engineer version of John Rambo.
    With F5 skill being a getling gun(kit)
    But affraid it would play to much like a dragonhunter..

    I would have gone with Green Arrow but a trap based ranged fight would likely play too close to Dragonhunter.

    And then there is the old robotic team..
    summing robots to help out in combat..
    Or having a combat suit aplied trough the F5 skil..
    It would be more of an asura theme...

    I don't see this happening. People hate AI controlled stuff too much. It's one of the complaints about Scrapper, that gyros are useless due to the AI.

    In general i hope the F5 skill will from now on allways be a kit..

    While I don't mind the F5 being a kit I think always being a kit would get dull and boring and really wouldn't be all that imagntive. Photon Forge is great, but it's not great enough that I would want that mechanic on every future Elite. I think it would be better if they experiment with their Elites than having this standard application of a kit. It doesn't help that not everyone likes kits and not everyone liked the use of Photon Forge.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MaxwellM.2075 said:
    I’d like to see a real 1200 range DPS weapon that’s not the rifle. It could be staff of longbow. Longbow would make more sense thematically. I assume it would be a super high tech one with lots of acessories for distribution of nano-golems, electricity, poison, etc. having some self contained combos with it and one mobility skill to kite would be A+ Maybe it could be a Spec Ops theme with stealth and traps for utility skills brining in a long range hit and run element.

    If it’s melee I think a greatsword with high mobility would be great. Something like how the ranger can fly around with it but with technology and even more mobile. It would have to be super tanky even more than scrapper. Maybe rework scrapper into our support build and make a golem suit based greatwaed build that has a lot of CC and sustain to harass enemies and not die

    1. Steam Powered Bow
    2. F5 skill that activates an enhancement to the available weapon set
    3. Utility skills based on Aetherblade technology
    • Aether Shield - Ammo based, 2 uses. Activating grants 12 charges and envelops the user in protective shield that destroys projectiles and blocks melee attacks, with each attack nullified consuming a charge. If all charges not consumed when the field expires, it grounds and sends out a shock wave that stuns nearby enemies (1/2 second + 1/2 second for every 3 charges remaining) .
    • Steam Crash - Send forward a cascade of electrified steam that damages and blinds floes in its path
    • Dragnet - Places a device on the ground that detonates after 2 seconds, pulsing immobilize in an area around it.
    • Electro Tether - Ground Target - Shots an arc of electricity to Target location, crippling enemies in its path; then causes user to leap to the location, dazing adjacent enemies on impact.
    • Airship Bombardment - Call in an Airship bombardment that pelts the area in cannon blasts of fire and electricity, causing burning and vulnerability respectively.

    Give me a break.. I'm bored.

  • Dabrixmgp.4758Dabrixmgp.4758 Member ✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    only correct answer is Golemancer with Staff maybe?

  • Atmaweapon.7345Atmaweapon.7345 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    Engineer is based entirely around steampunk and is predominantly Charr. Golemancy is magitech and entirely Asuran in principle which completely defeats the point of Engi as a non-magic profession, not to mention that the golem mechanic would either directly rip off the Necro shroud or Ranger pet and they’re in the process of removing borrowed skills from Engineer to establish a better identity.

    Now if there’s anything Engineer could do that no other profession could, it’d be a jetpack. One of the gimmicks behind this elite spec would be the real life practice of cloud seeding which is essentially weather modification. Let’s call it the “Stormrider” which sounds interesting enough while keeping the jetpack theme. The Stormrider utilizes two different weapons, a bow-type weapon, and the Spear. It would utilize Shortbows or Longbows as a power/support weapon whose gimmick is to launch special ammunition straight up into the air to land at a designated area, giving Engineer a way around projectile hate. Spears utilized are in conjunction with their jetpack gimmick which I’ll explain.

    Basically, replace the elite toolbelt skill with jetpack, and replace endurance with fuel. Use jetpack to go airborne (height limit works like the skimmer hover) which gives a somewhat modified set of weapon skills that share cooldowns, and replaces toolbelt skills with 4 different spear skills. Fuel is consumed rapidly, but barrel roll dodges are very low cost while in the air. On the ground, dodge roll is turned into a quick rocket boost with less invincibility frames, can be used more often. Also, rocket boosting on the ground also allows usage of spear skills without needing to boost into the air.

    Spear skills are as follows:

    1) Homing stab: Quickly dart forward and stab at a target
    2) Spiral charge: Charge through an enemy while evading.
    3) Lightning Spire: Attract a bolt of Lightning to grant Alacrity to allies.
    4) Tectonic crash: End Jetpack mode and dive towards the ground, launching nearby enemies.

    Yeah, this elite spec is essentially a jetpack Dragoon.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2018

    @Atmaweapon.7345 said:
    Engineer is based entirely around steampunk and is predominantly Charr. Golemancy is magitech and entirely Asuran in principle which completely defeats the point of Engi as a non-magic profession, not to mention that the golem mechanic would either directly rip off the Necro shroud or Ranger pet and they’re in the process of removing borrowed skills from Engineer to establish a better identity.

    Now if there’s anything Engineer could do that no other profession could, it’d be a jetpack. One of the gimmicks behind this elite spec would be the real life practice of cloud seeding which is essentially weather modification. Let’s call it the “Stormrider” which sounds interesting enough while keeping the jetpack theme. The Stormrider utilizes two different weapons, a bow-type weapon, and the Spear. It would utilize Shortbows or Longbows as a power/support weapon whose gimmick is to launch special ammunition straight up into the air to land at a designated area, giving Engineer a way around projectile hate. Spears utilized are in conjunction with their jetpack gimmick which I’ll explain.

    Basically, replace the elite toolbelt skill with jetpack, and replace endurance with fuel. Use jetpack to go airborne (height limit works like the skimmer hover) which gives a somewhat modified set of weapon skills that share cooldowns, and replaces toolbelt skills with 4 different spear skills. Fuel is consumed rapidly, but barrel roll dodges are very low cost while in the air. On the ground, dodge roll is turned into a quick rocket boost with less invincibility frames, can be used more often. Also, rocket boosting on the ground also allows usage of spear skills without needing to boost into the air.

    Spear skills are as follows:

    1) Homing stab: Quickly dart forward and stab at a target
    2) Spiral charge: Charge through an enemy while evading.
    3) Lightning Spire: Attract a bolt of Lightning to grant Alacrity to allies.
    4) Tectonic crash: End Jetpack mode and dive towards the ground, launching nearby enemies.

    Yeah, this elite spec is essentially a jetpack Dragoon.

    Handling Engineer as a Charr steampunk kind of thing is just too limiting. Nor is there anything wrong with using other mechanics. Photon Forge is just a better version of Necro/Reaper Shroud and gyro's are just weaker pets. You could do Golemancy and it still have a unique identity. The bigger problem with Golemancy isn't that it's Asuran. If anything Engineer should branch out further. The problem is just pets in general and the AI for them. The act of borrowing the pet mechanic wouldn't make it less Engineer so long as it actually worked.

    Also, I don't see the whole jetpack thing as viable. It comes off as too gimmicky to really be viable in a competitive sense. Constantly needing to be airborne just makes Engineer an easy target for Deadeye and Ranger. The arrows would also be too slow if they are having to arch up into the air first in order to avoid projectile hate.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2018

    @Atmaweapon.7345 said:
    On the ground, dodge roll is turned into a quick rocket boost with less invincibility frames, can be used more often.

    Just want to clarify on this statement specifically:

    Evade frames =/= Invincibility.

    This is a very important distinction to make. Evade frames can be countered by a limited number of skills. Invincibility cannot.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • The engi class has never really clicked with me because.. well, it just doesn't feel like an engineer (to me).
    Just as a necromancer plays with dead things, an engineer should play with.. machines. In a sense, it's almost like the engineer interfaces with the world through machines, not directly. When my engi runs around with a sword, rifle, pistols or hammer it just feels... odd.

    Personally, I'd like the next elite to allow the engi to create machines to deal damage/support and not get directly involved in the fighting. Of course, there would be some melee weapon (like a wrench or ..crowbar) in case things got close and personal, but ultimately the engi should avoid melee as much as possible and keep the machines maintained.

    Building on this, the spec could involve dropping a factory (I'd like to call it a forge but that's taken) that could produce droids to do various tasks. For example, the engi could produce a might generating droid and assign it to a particular ally. The droid would then follow and help that ally. That's something that would distinguish this spec, and engi, for me. All other minions/pets in this game are ultimately attached to the player who owns them. Being able to create minions and attach them to others would be something different.

    Taking that further, you could produce several droids and assign them to different players - or assign multiple droids to one player for added benefits. If a player has two droids with them, the droids might connect up to create a barrier, in addition to their basic functions.

    I guess what engi is missing for me isn't a specific weapon or a specific role, but a more engineering theme. I don't really care what the next spec is. It could be completely different from my concept above but feel suitably engineery in a different way, and that might be enough. Maybe the next one will click with me. Fingers crossed.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:
    The engi class has never really clicked with me because.. well, it just doesn't feel like an engineer (to me).
    Just as a necromancer plays with dead things, an engineer should play with.. machines. In a sense, it's almost like the engineer interfaces with the world through machines, not directly. When my engi runs around with a sword, rifle, pistols or hammer it just feels... odd.

    It's a steampunk fantasy game, there are limits on the type of machines they could put into the game. As for interacting with the world through machines, Flamethrower, Tool kit, goggles, slick shoes, pocket ram, jump boots. There is really only so far you can take the interacting with the world via machines so far in an MMO.

    Personally, I'd like the next elite to allow the engi to create machines to deal damage/support and not get directly involved in the fighting. Of course, there would be some >melee weapon (like a wrench or ..crowbar) in case things got close and personal, but ultimately the engi should avoid melee as much as possible and keep the machines >maintained.

    You mean like with turrets, kits, and gyros? Not being directly involved in combat is a really dull way to play an MMO game. Players want to interact with their environment and have control over what they are doing, hence why AIs are not well liked. It would pretty much rely on a bunch of AIs, a non-starter for many Engineer players.

    Building on this, the spec could involve dropping a factory (I'd like to call it a forge but that's taken) that could produce droids to do various tasks. For example, the engi >could produce a might generating droid and assign it to a particular ally. The droid would then follow and help that ally. That's something that would distinguish this spec, >and engi, for me. All other minions/pets in this game are ultimately attached to the player who owns them. Being able to create minions and attach them to others would >be something different.

    You mean like Supply Crate? Ranger already has commands that allow their pet to focus on other players. Attaching pets to other plays is really a non-interactive way of playing the game and the strength of the Elite would wholly be reliant on the AI being competent.

    Taking that further, you could produce several droids and assign them to different players - or assign multiple droids to one player for added benefits. If a player has two >droids with them, the droids might connect up to create a barrier, in addition to their basic functions.

    The balance on that would be a nightmare. Also, this sounds way too involved to be an Elite.

    I guess what engi is missing for me isn't a specific weapon or a specific role, but a more engineering theme. I don't really care what the next spec is. It could be completely >different from my concept above but feel suitably engineery in a different way, and that might be enough. Maybe the next one will click with me. Fingers crossed.

    Most of what you listed are already elements that are in Engineer. The rest are really AI dependent and non-interactive. The AI part has been addressed before but there is only so much you can do with the engineering concept in an MMO. Some of those things are viable in a single player game where the game itself can be created to focus on just that character and its abilities. With an MMO though you really can't have a player sit back and pump out an endless supply of bots to attach to other people. However, if being able to drop turrets, summon gyros, have different kits, have gadgets and explosives aren't already engineer like for you it is unlikely that will change with a new Elite as it's hard to deny that Scrapper is engineer like, in the very least.

  • I guess I'll have to clarify some of the ideas I had with the Jetpack Engineer:

    1) The Jetpack is meant to be a positioning tool rather than a "mode" the way Photon Forge is.
    2) You can activate spear skills immediately after using dodge rolls so you never actually have to go into the air, but retain the flavor of using a jetpack.

    3) Most of the Bow type weapon skills would function like arrow-carts or Barrage in that they're channeled AoE attacks that fire straight up and persist for a moment rather than projectiles. Attack abilities would be stuff like a rain of explosive arrows, while supportive abilities could be an Elixir Rain. The Weather seeding concept lets the Engineer perform attacks differently from an Elementalist, for example they could fire bomb arrows that freeze in the air and rain down as icicles which then detonate after delay.
    4) The Bow would primarily be a support weapon, but packs good sustained power damage. The auto-attack would basically be Spatial Surge with an AoE rather than an arcing effect. All of the support abilities would be non-projectile effects.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Atmaweapon.7345 said:
    I guess I'll have to clarify some of the ideas I had with the Jetpack Engineer:

    1) The Jetpack is meant to be a positioning tool rather than a "mode" the way Photon Forge is.
    2) You can activate spear skills immediately after using dodge rolls so you never actually have to go into the air, but retain the flavor of using a jetpack.

    3) Most of the Bow type weapon skills would function like arrow-carts or Barrage in that they're channeled AoE attacks that fire straight up and persist for a moment rather than projectiles. Attack abilities would be stuff like a rain of explosive arrows, while supportive abilities could be an Elixir Rain. The Weather seeding concept lets the Engineer perform attacks differently from an Elementalist, for example they could fire bomb arrows that freeze in the air and rain down as icicles which then detonate after delay.
    4) The Bow would primarily be a support weapon, but packs good sustained power damage. The auto-attack would basically be Spatial Surge with an AoE rather than an arcing effect. All of the support abilities would be non-projectile effects.

    If all you have to do is dodge to gain access to the spear then what you are really doing is giving the Elite two weapons for the price of one. There wouldn't be much point to the jetpack mechanic if you can get most of the same effect simply by dodging. Actually, there is no point to a jetpack if you don't need to go into the air. The lack of not having to go into the air pretty much kills any flavor it has and would be viewed as nothing more as a cheap gimmick.

    The arrow thing is just unbalanced. Arrow cart works because it's a stationary device that can be destroyed. Ranger and Dragonhunter only get one such attack and that attack roots them in place, leaving them vulnerable. One would be fine, an entire weapon of such effects would not be balanced, at all. The balance issues get worse when you have to dodge to gain access to these spear skills. The actual arrows also come off as too strong.

  • I don't disagree with your reply - except on one point: that not being directly involved in combat is a dull way to play an mmo.
    Obviously, what's dull and what's not is subjective, or the forums wouldn't be full of conflicting opinions on the subject. There will be some who would enjoy standing back from direct combat and providing support - and there are options already for this in-game as a result. And it doesn't just vary from person to person but also by mood. Sometimes I feel like standing back and sometimes I feel like being in the enemy's face, so dullness is a pointless argument. Arguments about the limitations and balance of an mmo are reasonable and I don't disagree with you there. I was just voicing my own day-dream of an engi, as impractical as it might be.

    As I said at the end, I really don't care what the next spec is. I'm not hanging out for anything. I just haven't clicked with engi yet and I'm hoping the next spec does something thematically that feels more engi (to me).

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:

    I don't disagree with your reply - except on one point: that not being directly involved in combat is a dull way to play an mmo.
    Obviously, what's dull and what's not is subjective, or the forums wouldn't be full of conflicting opinions on the subject. There will be some who would enjoy standing back from direct combat and providing support - and there are options already for this in-game as a result. And it doesn't just vary from person to person but also by mood. Sometimes I feel like standing back and sometimes I feel like being in the enemy's face, so dullness is a pointless argument. Arguments about the limitations and balance of an mmo are reasonable and I don't disagree with you there. I was just voicing my own day-dream of an engi, as impractical as it might be.

    As I said at the end, I really don't care what the next spec is. I'm not hanging out for anything. I just haven't clicked with engi yet and I'm hoping the next spec does something thematically that feels more engi (to me).

    I guess I should have framed it as passive vs active combat. You can be active in combat and sit on the back line. That's what a lot of what support does. Passive combat, on the other hand, I do not think creates a fun MMO experience, at least in my opinion. I think what you said came off as a passive way of being in combat, which, admittedly, I find to be dull.

  • @Dace.8173 said:

    @Atmaweapon.7345 said:
    I guess I'll have to clarify some of the ideas I had with the Jetpack Engineer:

    1) The Jetpack is meant to be a positioning tool rather than a "mode" the way Photon Forge is.
    2) You can activate spear skills immediately after using dodge rolls so you never actually have to go into the air, but retain the flavor of using a jetpack.

    3) Most of the Bow type weapon skills would function like arrow-carts or Barrage in that they're channeled AoE attacks that fire straight up and persist for a moment rather than projectiles. Attack abilities would be stuff like a rain of explosive arrows, while supportive abilities could be an Elixir Rain. The Weather seeding concept lets the Engineer perform attacks differently from an Elementalist, for example they could fire bomb arrows that freeze in the air and rain down as icicles which then detonate after delay.
    4) The Bow would primarily be a support weapon, but packs good sustained power damage. The auto-attack would basically be Spatial Surge with an AoE rather than an arcing effect. All of the support abilities would be non-projectile effects.

    If all you have to do is dodge to gain access to the spear then what you are really doing is giving the Elite two weapons for the price of one. There wouldn't be much point to the jetpack mechanic if you can get most of the same effect simply by dodging. Actually, there is no point to a jetpack if you don't need to go into the air. The lack of not having to go into the air pretty much kills any flavor it has and would be viewed as nothing more as a cheap gimmick.

    The arrow thing is just unbalanced. Arrow cart works because it's a stationary device that can be destroyed. Ranger and Dragonhunter only get one such attack and that attack roots them in place, leaving them vulnerable. One would be fine, an entire weapon of such effects would not be balanced, at all. The balance issues get worse when you have to dodge to gain access to these spear skills. The actual arrows also come off as too strong.

    There’s a major disconnect in expectations here, I guess I could have called the jetpack a rocket. Your expectation seems to be that the jetpack is like one of those games where its only purpose is to bob you up and down in the air. My thinking actually comes from a game series called rocket knight where your jetpack is like an omnidirectional dash. There’s a certain charm to having a plethora of movement options bound by 1 resource (Endurance in this case) and having multiple viable ways to use a jetpack depending on the situation is part of the charm of using a jetpack as opposed to say, a levitation device. The main purpose of the jetpack is to blast you around at blindingly fast speeds; if the main purpose of the jetpack was just to hover, it’d just be a glorified glider.

    As for a free second weapon, it’s much more limited than say, Druid or Holo.

    Finally, for the bow, not every skill is going to be a targeted aoe, When say “good sustained dps” I mean that the auto-attack isn’t garbage like Rifle, requiring you to run a another kit (I mean for the shortbow to compliment the Med kit in a support setup). When I compare it to an arrowcart it’s obviously not going to be anywhere near that size of that AoE, especially on the offensive attacks. The exploding icicle arrows sounds hideously OP because it sounds cool, but in reality it would look like this:
    -Deal damage in an area. After a delay, deal damage again and chill in that area.

    Plenty of professions have non-projectile ranged attacks that hit rather hard. The fact that it looks like Barrage doesn’t mean it’ll be anywhere as effective.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Atmaweapon.7345 said:

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Atmaweapon.7345 said:
    I guess I'll have to clarify some of the ideas I had with the Jetpack Engineer:

    1) The Jetpack is meant to be a positioning tool rather than a "mode" the way Photon Forge is.
    2) You can activate spear skills immediately after using dodge rolls so you never actually have to go into the air, but retain the flavor of using a jetpack.

    3) Most of the Bow type weapon skills would function like arrow-carts or Barrage in that they're channeled AoE attacks that fire straight up and persist for a moment rather than projectiles. Attack abilities would be stuff like a rain of explosive arrows, while supportive abilities could be an Elixir Rain. The Weather seeding concept lets the Engineer perform attacks differently from an Elementalist, for example they could fire bomb arrows that freeze in the air and rain down as icicles which then detonate after delay.
    4) The Bow would primarily be a support weapon, but packs good sustained power damage. The auto-attack would basically be Spatial Surge with an AoE rather than an arcing effect. All of the support abilities would be non-projectile effects.

    If all you have to do is dodge to gain access to the spear then what you are really doing is giving the Elite two weapons for the price of one. There wouldn't be much point to the jetpack mechanic if you can get most of the same effect simply by dodging. Actually, there is no point to a jetpack if you don't need to go into the air. The lack of not having to go into the air pretty much kills any flavor it has and would be viewed as nothing more as a cheap gimmick.

    The arrow thing is just unbalanced. Arrow cart works because it's a stationary device that can be destroyed. Ranger and Dragonhunter only get one such attack and that attack roots them in place, leaving them vulnerable. One would be fine, an entire weapon of such effects would not be balanced, at all. The balance issues get worse when you have to dodge to gain access to these spear skills. The actual arrows also come off as too strong.

    There’s a major disconnect in expectations here, I guess I could have called the jetpack a rocket. Your expectation seems to be that the jetpack is like one of those games where its only purpose is to bob you up and down in the air. My thinking actually comes from a game series called rocket knight where your jetpack is like an omnidirectional dash. There’s a certain charm to having a plethora of movement options bound by 1 resource (Endurance in this case) and having multiple viable ways to use a jetpack depending on the situation is part of the charm of using a jetpack as opposed to say, a levitation device. The main purpose of the jetpack is to blast you around at blindingly fast speeds; if the main purpose of the jetpack was just to hover, it’d just be a glorified glider.

    As for a free second weapon, it’s much more limited than say, Druid or Holo.

    Finally, for the bow, not every skill is going to be a targeted aoe, When say “good sustained dps” I mean that the auto-attack isn’t garbage like Rifle, requiring you to run a another kit (I mean for the shortbow to compliment the Med kit in a support setup). When I compare it to an arrowcart it’s obviously not going to be anywhere near that size of that AoE, especially on the offensive attacks. The exploding icicle arrows sounds hideously OP because it sounds cool, but in reality it would look like this:
    -Deal damage in an area. After a delay, deal damage again and chill in that area.

    Plenty of professions have non-projectile ranged attacks that hit rather hard. The fact that it looks like Barrage doesn’t mean it’ll be anywhere as effective.

    I understood what you meant by jetpack, which is why I called it out as basically trying to sneak in two weapons for one Elite. Bobbing up and down in the air isn't enough of a justification, mechanically, for an entirely new set of weapon skills on top of the new weapon you already get. There isn't much point to a jetpack mechanic that is basically dodging. If changes in movement options were enough to justify a brand new set of weapons the Daredevil and Mirage would have gotten them too as both of those are movement based professions that work off of positioning and dodges. No matter how you limit it, though, you are still giving them a free second weapon.

    People really need to stop giving Rifle so much grief. It actually is a solid weapon. Using the Rifle does not require you to run another kit. In the realm of firearms, it's the pistols that are underwhelming. Our rifle gives us a nice set of attacks. Also, the exploding icicle doesn't sound OP because it sounds cool, I don't think it sounds cool in the least, it's OP because you have it doing a bunch of different things. First, it arches into the air to avoid being reflected, then it comes down as a bunch of icicles, then it explodes. Oh, and it's a bomb arrow. And it also adds a condition. If I thought it sounded it cool I might have ignored it being an overpowered set of abilities. Your proposed arrow shot is better than Mortar skill, and that's an elite skill.

  • Atmaweapon.7345Atmaweapon.7345 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    The theoretical icicle attack is:
    -Deal damage in an area.
    -After a period of time, enemies in the area take damage and are chilled.

    All the fluff about bombs and stuff is to explain why it functions the way it does and how it differs from what an elementalist can do. Also Freeze grenades are as good/better than Endothermic blast so I don’t know what you’re getting at there with certain Mortar kit abilities being outclassed.

    My point about Rifle damage was oriented towards PvE where Bomb autos deal 50% more dps than Hipshot.

    Finally, the Spear suggestion was more of a way to add some fun and relevance to Underwater weapons. If the balance problem is literally equipping a second weapon, that part can be dropped easily and the spear can be an implied weapon.

  • I want to say something about the Golemancer ideas flying around: I’m not against using a mech in some fashion and fulfilling the Iron Man fantasy, but I’m against it specifically being a Golem because Golems are magically animated constructs made out of stone. If anything I think Golemancer would take a page from Blish and work better a Necromancer spec where you bind your soul to a construct and puppeteer it while also being able to jump into it to protect yourself. Essentially, it’d be a reverse Soulbeast where your Deathshroud can act independently of you.

    Approaching Engineer from a Mechrider perspective also opens up a lot of aesthetic possibilities over a stone golem. We have Watchknights and Steam creatures and tanks running around afterall.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Atmaweapon.7345 said:
    The theoretical icicle attack is:
    -Deal damage in an area.
    -After a period of time, enemies in the area take damage and are chilled.

    All the fluff about bombs and stuff is to explain why it functions the way it does and how it differs from what an elementalist can do. Also Freeze grenades are as good/better than Endothermic blast so I don’t know what you’re getting at there with certain Mortar kit abilities being outclassed.

    My point about Rifle damage was oriented towards PvE where Bomb autos deal 50% more dps than Hipshot.

    Finally, the Spear suggestion was more of a way to add some fun and relevance to Underwater weapons. If the balance problem is literally equipping a second weapon, that part can be dropped easily and the spear can be an implied weapon.

    Dude, I completely understand the effect. You don't need to re-explain it or strip it of flavor. It doesn't change the nature of the critique. The only person caught up on the fluff is you. Your designed shot is better than Endothermic Shell, an elite skill. Endothermic Shell does everything you discuss, sans a delayed secondary chill and damage effect. And no, Freeze Grenades are not better than Endothermic Shell. The grenades do 178 damage to 5 targets in a radius of 120 with a range of 900. ES does 355 damage to 5 targets in a radius of 240 with a range of 1500 and drops and ice field. In noooooooooooooooo way are Freeze grenades better than that. If you think Freeze grenades are better, or even equal to, then I understand why you don't get that you designed an OP skill.

    Also, why are you comparing the Rifle auto to an auto you get from a utility skill? Of course, it's stronger. It's a utility skill. It's also bombs. You are comparing a rifle shot to a bomb. There would be something seriously wrong if the Hip Shot was doing more damage. Also, underwater skills lack relevance because players don't really like underwater combat. Engineer doesn't even use spear. Still, an implied weapon is still a weapon. You're adding a different kind of weapon attack for dodging.

    @Atmaweapon.7345 said:
    I want to say something about the Golemancer ideas flying around: I’m not against using a mech in some fashion and fulfilling the Iron Man fantasy, but I’m against it specifically being a Golem because Golems are magically animated constructs made out of stone. If anything I think Golemancer would take a page from Blish and work better a Necromancer spec where you bind your soul to a construct and puppeteer it while also being able to jump into it to protect yourself. Essentially, it’d be a reverse Soulbeast where your Deathshroud can act independently of you.

    Approaching Engineer from a Mechrider perspective also opens up a lot of aesthetic possibilities over a stone golem. We have Watchknights and Steam creatures and tanks running around afterall.

    In this game Golems are machines. To claim that all it is is magic is to ignore the current lore surrounding golemancers. Don't confuse the material used to make them as how they work. They are controlled or were controlled, with joysticks and pads. The newer models are operated using a mind interface, that is not magic. The game lore references it as technology. If it were magically in nature it would say as much given the way in which magic and technology coexists.

  • I was comparing Rifle auto to Bomb auto to highlight the disparity in dps in regards to how the Bow auto would be balanced to be higher sustained damage than the Rifle, yet weaker than bomb, but just good enough to be able to justify not running bomb kit in PvE because as a support you would already be running Medkit for healing (and probably elixir gun too.) As for the implied weapon... well yeah? If the Jetpack is the focal point of the elite, you should naturally have skills you can utilize with it to accentuate its importance.

    You're also throwing around numbers without even taking into account that Freeze grenade hits 3 times and chills upfront. I didn't even post any numbers for the icicle attack and you're saying it's OP on the basis that it would ignore projectile hate and Mortar doesn't. AoE chill attacks that ignore projectile hate already exist in the game.

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Atmaweapon.7345 said:
    I was comparing Rifle auto to Bomb auto to highlight the disparity in dps in regards to how the Bow auto would be balanced to be higher sustained damage than the Rifle, yet weaker than bomb, but just good enough to be able to justify not running bomb kit in PvE because as a support you would already be running Medkit for healing (and probably elixir gun too.) As for the implied weapon... well yeah? If the Jetpack is the focal point of the elite, you should naturally have skills you can utilize with it to accentuate its importance.

    You're also throwing around numbers without even taking into account that Freeze grenade hits 3 times and chills upfront. I didn't even post any numbers for the icicle attack and you're saying it's OP on the basis that it would ignore projectile hate and Mortar doesn't. AoE chill attacks that ignore projectile hate already exist in the game.

    You're still comparing Rifle to a utility skill that is meant to be a bit stronger. Kit weapons were designed as a replacement for weapon swap. Making them strong is just sane game design. Comparing Rifle and Bomb auto to make a point about another hypothetical weapon is not going to work in your favor. The least of which you are trying to make a point about a weapon so that you don't have to run a certain set of kits. Those kits are all optional. Engineer can already do well in PvE without needing to run Medkit, Elixir Gun, and Bomb Kit. You are making this false assumption that these kits you are trying to not justify running are already not justified in running.

    You also need to stop waffling on the jetpack. First, it's an important skill that is used to hover and position. Then it's just something you could do to gain access to these weapon traits but you know you could also just dodge instead. Then it's back to being a focal point. It's just a gimmick though.

    Oh, and yes I tossed out numbers. You made a bad point about Freeze Grenades somehow being better than Endothermic Shell. Yeah, it tosses three grenades and does 178 in damage. If the damage was per grenade it would be written as Damage (3x) 178. Also, I already explained what made it OP. It's not that it avoids projectile damage (despite being an arrow) and Mortar doesn't. It's that it is multiple effects in one. Your effect is that it does it ignores projectile hate, does damage, then does damage again and chills. Mortar avoids projectile and does damage once. The Elite does damage once and you want to give a non-Elite skill most of what Mortar does in addition to being able to do a delayed damage attack. You want a bow that fires a bunch of barrage skills and those skills do damage and then those same skills do damage again and apply a condition. Oh, it will also do higher sustained damage than the rifle, but you know not more than the bomb. It's not really a good weapon design.

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