Shoehorned: Undesirable Player Defined Limitations for Thief

I need muh damage back, nerf the elite specs, not the core specs. Fix skills that have been ba-roke since loo-aunch.

For real,

Decapping and +1 is almost useless in the state of the game in PVP. Why does thief need to be 11k base health if their single target damage melee is not the greatest?

The role of thief?

Look at your own creation page:

It takes less effort for other classes to make that happen. Its anmoying when a player on essentially any other class comes skipping gleefully up to the point knowing that most likely you will die or run away.

People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

@"Alatar.7364" said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

but thief is good in 1 vs 1. just not in the context of conquest.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

Maybe in WvW jumps. But not in PvP, that's not only conquest but Duel Servers as well, it's particularly visible in those. Even then, you still get lonely 1v1s in Martches as well, from time to time, very dependant on scenario.

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

Thief is good at +1 because they can blink from like 3k range to you and get that +1, ever thought about that? And since they are so good at that, they might as well do it.

Mind = blown

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

Ok, so your saying that because Thief is good at +1 purely by its flawed balance that it should stay this way, even though it was never meant to do that, instead of fixing it to play out as it should have?That's like saying a child born paralyzed should not be cured even though he/she was never meant to suffer that.Just to simplify, +1 is a result of bad balance, it's not an intentional design.

Mind = totally not blown by your "argument"

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

i dont know what builds people play as thieves in 1 vs 1 arenas and how they play it. i know that very few people ask me for a duel when i sit at a duel spot in WvW. the ones that do usually tell me after a few tries that there is no point in duelling a thief like that. maybe i should try for fun joining those arenas with my build i use in WvW, just that in spvp nobody is running as tanky and no durability runes for rng protection against high single hit bursts, so it should actually be overall better for me , sure lower burst but it is mostly overkill anyway. are there any rules in the 1 vs 1 arenas? i know like when custom arenas just came out some stuff was banned from the 1 vs 1 arenas like too tanky amulets that we still had.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

You won't get even close to the numbers of WvW in PvP.That's why WvW shows how Thief should have worked, if jumped and surprised by Thief then enemy should have one hell of a time.... That is not gonna happen in PvP after successful jump. Even though numbers in WvW might be a bit too high.Also keep in mind that Rifle DE is a different story than core Thief. Core Thief (and even DD) still got literally nothing on their opponents.

There are only rules such as not gank other Duels. People will also get very very salty if you use terrain and stealth as a Thief, because logic.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

Dude killing zerke eles heading back to the main zerg does not mean thief is good in 1vs1

Well, I wouldn't say that the creation page is wrong in what it say since it doesn't say that you will dominate any 1v1 that you'll do. The thief is indeed deadly against an unsuspecting foe and can be pretty weak after killing it's first foe making a 1v2 a bit more difficult.

Anyway, all professions have a description on the creation page which is arguably right. The devs created the game quite some time ago and had their own vision of what each profession would do. Time, balance and the players altered a lot this vision of the game.

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

i am aware of different stats in spvp. and regarding stealth in duels that is exactly what i expected.yet read the description in the OP's post again :'Thieves are adept at the art of stealth. They utilize suprise and shadow to get close to their enemies and they're deadly in one-on-one combat.'so obviously if you put the rule not to use stealth or very limited, thats a heavy restriction for thieves and hinders their deadliness in one-on-one combat.

@Menyus.4610 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

yeah, i only kill zerk eles heading back to the main zerg. and obviously get obliberated in an instant if i happen to see a white bunny.

I propose a trade.

We completely gut thieves ability to stealth and be obnoxiously mobile allowing them to pick any fight THEY want and disengage any fight which they don't want; and we can give them some kind of duellist presence.

Bye permastealth. Bye hundreds of blinks, long range dashes, shortbow 5, ...Bye ability to chase for kills.Bye ability to engage freelyBye ability to reset and disengage freelyHello HP / sustain / dps.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

@Etheri.5406 said:I propose a trade.

We completely gut thieves ability to stealth and be obnoxiously mobile allowing them to pick any fight THEY want and disengage any fight which they don't want; and we can give them some kind of duellist presence.

Bye permastealth. Bye hundreds of blinks, long range dashes, shortbow 5, ...Bye ability to chase for kills.Bye ability to engage freelyBye ability to reset and disengage freelyHello HP / sustain / dps.

chase what? the same thing your +1 buddy is chasing? I should have already caught them with my "hundreds of blinks".

@Etheri.5406 said:I propose a trade.

We completely gut thieves ability to stealth and be obnoxiously mobile allowing them to pick any fight THEY want and disengage any fight which they don't want; and we can give them some kind of duellist presence.

Bye permastealth. Bye hundreds of blinks, long range dashes, shortbow 5, ...Bye ability to chase for kills.Bye ability to engage freelyBye ability to reset and disengage freelyHello HP / sustain / dps.

why do they need to trade? mesmer has all of that and the sustain/hp/dps

@"Etheri.5406" said:I propose a trade.

We completely gut thieves ability to stealth and be obnoxiously mobile allowing them to pick any fight THEY want and disengage any fight which they don't want; and we can give them some kind of duellist presence.

Bye permastealth. Bye hundreds of blinks, long range dashes, shortbow 5, ...Bye ability to chase for kills.Bye ability to engage freelyBye ability to reset and disengage freelyHello HP / sustain / dps.

Every time somebody brings up this "hundreds of blinks" or "xKs shadowstep distances" it hurts my brain the way cold ice cream hurts if you eat it instantly.

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

Lol, no Anet isn’t going to rework an entire base mechanic and associated class. It’s too much effort.

You want a counter to permastealth? There’s AoE cc and reveal and cleave. Sure stealth is annoying to fight against but it’s not meant to be useless.

A few thoughts:

At some point stealth players face a question. Do I stay in stealth or attack? Enemies who stand there don’t make this choice hard. Enemies who are good force the thief to chase/defend by making it harder for the thief to calmly assess whether to strike or keep stacking stealth. A stealth player is more effective when their enemy player waits for the thief to make the first move. Stealth is a mind game as much as anything else.

Stealth isn’t free and it has downsides like lack of contribution/contesting. Use that to your advantage in a reverse mind game . In a 1v1 you shouldn’t be using traits ill suited to the matchup. If the thief is built for a duel it would be inappropriate to not bring reveal or cleave or cc. You can’t expect to win without a way to pressure the thief when it stealths.

Let's be honest guys SPvP thief =/= WvW thief

In WvW you can be a little more liberal with your "build and gear" and stealth play is a strong tool.

In PvP you gotta take points and defend them. If I am a squish and all I got is evasion, why can't I hit hard? If I leave the point to the challenger, now I don't have the point or the kill, if I can duel him, its not fast and can be drawn out indefinitely because of my noodly hits.

@saerni.2584 said:Lol, no Anet isn’t going to rework an entire base mechanic and associated class. It’s too much effort.

You want a counter to permastealth? There’s AoE cc and reveal and cleave. Sure stealth is annoying to fight against but it’s not meant to be useless.

A few thoughts:

At some point stealth players face a question. Do I stay in stealth or attack? Enemies who stand there don’t make this choice hard. Enemies who are good force the thief to chase/defend by making it harder for the thief to calmly assess whether to strike or keep stacking stealth. A stealth player is more effective when their enemy player waits for the thief to make the first move. Stealth is a mind game as much as anything else.

Stealth isn’t free and it has downsides like lack of contribution/contesting. Use that to your advantage in a reverse mind game . In a 1v1 you shouldn’t be using traits ill suited to the matchup. If the thief is built for a duel it would be inappropriate to not bring reveal or cleave or cc. You can’t expect to win without a way to pressure the thief when it stealths.

someone is complaining about stealth in this thread?

Etheri and there’s always people complaining about stealth :-p

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Let's be honest guys SPvP thief =/= WvW thief

i know thats what i initally said that thief is good in 1 vs 1 but not in the context of conquest.so we pretty much argue if the sheer stat difference is enough to reder the thief useless in 1 vs 1 combat in spvp , while it excells in WvW at it.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

Yes, DE works fine, especially for the original concept, that's why I keep mentioning that Core Thief and even DD don't work at all. DE can build Malice and actually kill if using it's "sneaky" potential. Non-DE builds are very much reliant on proper usage of Steal and Bursts, and when you do that as Core or DD you still won't be "deadly" what so ever in sPvP. I have no complaints about DE. Currently Thief has no 1v1 build in sPvP, the only one used to be condi S/D and launch D/D Thief. Even Power S/D was more or less good because of boon strip, however it was "satisfactory" '1v1' build before the AA nerf. In other threads on forums I said that I'd be quite happy with just the AA nerf reverted, even though it would still be far from optimal.

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

now i am a little confused. is thief as DE in your opinion now good and deadly in 1 vs 1 combat in a duel arena or not (outside of conquest context)?

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

Well more confusion Inc.:It is good and deadly in Arena, but also quite easy to counter with LoS's due to smaller nature of PvP maps. In maps like Legacy of Foefire it can be very annoying if siting on the graves.While having lower dmg than in WvW, it's PvP dmg is still nothing to laugh at but also plenty ways to prevent it, same as for Thief quite a few ways to not get completely countered by LoS.You can see it in actual matches where if you don't pressure the DE immidietely it can pretty much delete people on some team fights.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:People will still come here with wall of text telling you how Thief was always meant to be +1 and that they heard it "somewhere".Which will in the end result in my most favourite argument of all; "You're wrong!"

Dude none of thieves build excels in 1v1, you can suprise somone with deadeye but only max once a day if he is a decent player, when im playing my heal druid i just lol away when i see a DeadEye going on me, last time i died to a deadeye was on my experimental interrupter build and got a 14k crit from malicious backstab, the only time i see people dying to them is my wvw braindead team8s who are only good in 50vs50 scenarios, or when my team8s standing int he backline with off cds and around 0-75% hp, Soulbeast beats dead eye easily, holo beats it, mirage beats it, Spellbreaker 50-50, drd beats it basically evry roamer class beats it, i dunno what low tier NA server u on but i hardly ever see a competitive DE in wvw, and when i see it, it usually explodes when 2+ vs him