If there were no damage conditions in guild wars — Guild Wars 2 Forums

If there were no damage conditions in guild wars

Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
edited September 26, 2017 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Condi gets a lot of complaints around here. If you want to fight condis, you have to kitten your awesome build by bringing condi cleanse. and then use that condi cleanse wisely and skillfully, which is an imbalance against your opponent, who is probably just unleashing condi after condi. As a gameplay element, most people find it unfun. And what are games about really.

Have you ever thought about what guild wars would be like without damage conditions? Condi is a great concept that brings a new way to play to guild wars, but in practice it just outperforms power based gameplay. If the game was power only, what would happen? I'm guessing heavy classes would probably have an easier time facetanking masses of incoming damage. Could we perhaps transform all damage condis into debuffs? lets hear your thoughts

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Comments

  • Conditions would still be used but for a different reason... support. :P

  • Conditions should not be able to spike you to death under a second. Also, a power spike is easier to notice, allowing a player to pop a block or invul, all while applied conditions happily kill you while you're using your defensive skills. Some conditions require no player input to be applied (see vid where Svanir gets killed by idle elementalist), or very little effort.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd say indigo brings a pretty strong argument to the table. Making people reign in their builds a bit in order to deal with potential other builds makes for any easier time of balancing things.

    But something still feels wrong here. It's a game, so why do I feel like I'm not having a fun time doing this? I've been playing burn firebrand as opposed to my thief main recently, and although I'll admit it's amazing annihilating people with endless stacks of burn, I still feel disgusted at how unfair it must feel for the guy in the receiving end. I mean sure, that guy should have brought a better build, but it was so mindless the way i killed him that even if he had, he would have had to do a much better job of countering me that i did attacking him to even out the playing field.

    The thing is is that to bring condi builds under control, you'd need to basically nerf them to the point that power builds are back on top. So why not change them completely? make them into support elements than offensive ones. That way, people still need have an opportunity cost, but don't have to worry about offensive conditions.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    It's really funny how people were just fine with power builds reigning supreme for years and then suddenly conditions are also viable and everyone's mad.

    Huh yeah it's almost like the playerbase doesn't like conditions or something

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    When i say "as a gameplay element, most people find it unfun," I mean the part where they have to make builds that have mitigation against both power and condi, not the application of condis themselves. I'm sure if every single person ran a condi build, there'd be a lot less complaints. The fact that there is so much complaining is a big sign of a widespread distaste.

  • @Fipmip.7219 said:
    Condi gets a lot of complaints around here. If you want to fight condis, you have to kitten your awesome build by bringing condi cleanse. and then use that condi cleanse wisely and skillfully, which is an imbalance against your opponent, who is probably just unleashing condi after condi. As a gameplay element, most people find it unfun. And what are games about really.

    Have you ever thought about what guild wars would be like without damage conditions? Condi is a great concept that brings a new way to play to guild wars, but in practice it just outperforms power based gameplay. If the game was power only, what would happen? I'm guessing heavy classes would probably have an easier time facetanking masses of incoming damage. Could we perhaps transform all damage condis into debuffs? lets hear your thoughts

    No, I have always thought condis were a pretty prominent part of this franchise since the early launch of Guild Wars Prophecies in 2005. They've been a part of every major mainstream MMO created, and countering condis via cleanse is pretty much the same mechanic as countering power based damage via blocking. What's unfun about it? Weird.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Menzies The Heretic.3415 said:
    Conditions should not be able to spike you to death under a second. Also, a power spike is easier to notice, allowing a player to pop a block or invul, all while applied conditions happily kill you while you're using your defensive skills. Some conditions require no player input to be applied (see vid where Svanir gets killed by idle elementalist), or very little effort.

    Power spoke damage is no easier to notice that Condi spike damage. This is a false statement. Why do so many people say condi still damage when using defensive skills? You used the skills at the wrong time. Why not use the skills before the conditions were applied not after. Also that conditions maniacally tend to appear on you.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Menzies The Heretic.3415 said:
    Conditions should not be able to spike you to death under a second. Also, a power spike is easier to notice, allowing a player to pop a block or invul, all while applied conditions happily kill you while you're using your defensive skills. Some conditions require no player input to be applied (see vid where Svanir gets killed by idle elementalist), or very little effort.

    Power spoke damage is no easier to notice that Condi spike damage. This is a false statement. Why do so many people say condi still damage when using defensive skills? You used the skills at the wrong time. Why not use the skills before the conditions were applied not after. Also that conditions maniacally tend to appear on you.

    You should play a thief, then come back and talk about "using the skills at the wrong time" or "you have defensive skills to avoid condition damage, it's easy".

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭

    @Atramentous.1923 said:

    No, I have always thought condis were a pretty prominent part of this franchise since the early launch of Guild Wars Prophecies in 2005. They've been a part of every major mainstream MMO created, and countering condis via cleanse is pretty much the same mechanic as countering power based damage via blocking. What's unfun about it? Weird.

    I meant as opposed to playing with power, which i'm guessing most people try first when playing guild wars. Either way out of everything i just asserted, it's a very odd thing to nitpick.

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    Power spoke damage is no easier to notice that Condi spike damage. This is a false statement. Why do so many people say condi still damage when using defensive skills? You used the skills at the wrong time. Why not use the skills before the conditions were applied not after. Also that conditions maniacally tend to appear on you.

    Before the conditions were applied? You can only cleanse condis that are already on you, meaning you have take the hit before you can heal it.

  • lmaogg.7325lmaogg.7325 Member ✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    the issue with conditions comes from pvp/wvw. Not pve. People who constantly say power dominates condition and condition is supporting damage probably only do pve stuff. In pvp/wvw, it's rather ridiculous since it's a dump and run thing. The amount of burst from condition stacks ever since HoT outdamages direct damage and they do simply too much to even let you cleanse in time, or your cleanse doesn't even remove that particular condi due to limit.

    I personally still prefer conditions when bleed used to be the main DoT we had and it actually takes some kiting and time before the enemy die to.. DoTs. The current meta is just gross when condi burst is too strong and the target drops instantly.

  • If we just had dedicated, effectual healing roles, the interplay of condi vs. power would be strategic and balanced instead of something that over-centralizes the requirement of cleanse on every class, regardless of build. You could offload a bit of the responsibility and make another role viable, only really adding to the depth of the combat, which is something that the game severely needs.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Shirlias.8104

    you have defensive skills to avoid condition damage, it's easy

    This is something I never said. Stop changing the context of my reply in an attempt to projecting your own problems and prejudice through words I didn't say.

    @Fipmip.7219
    Read exactly what I quoted

    Also, a power spike is easier to notice, allowing a player to pop a block or invul, all while applied conditions happily kill you while you're using your defensive skills

    This implies that conditions go through block or invulnerability. Hence me saying why are you using defensive skills after you have taken the hit not before to avoid the application in the first place. Some people have this weird notion that they should be able to negate/mitigate all condition damage completely.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Menzies The Heretic.3415 said:
    Conditions should not be able to spike you to death under a second. Also, a power spike is easier to notice, allowing a player to pop a block or invul, all while applied conditions happily kill you while you're using your defensive skills. Some conditions require no player input to be applied (see vid where Svanir gets killed by idle elementalist), or very little effort.

    Power spoke damage is no easier to notice that Condi spike damage. This is a false statement. Why do so many people say condi still damage when using defensive skills? You used the skills at the wrong time. Why not use the skills before the conditions were applied not after. Also that conditions maniacally tend to appear on you.

    Don't tell me you never once died of random conditions being stacked on you while you didn't notice your health bar suddenly dropped below zero. And don't tell me when you didn't notice that you should've popped some defensive skills to prevent said random conditions. You know I'm not talking about skill animations here, stop fooling anyone.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd seriously love to see a GW2 experiment (for example be it just for aprils fools day or for a test weekend to just see the reactions of us players), how a GW2 would run, if the Condition System would be so overworked, that there are no damaging conditions anymore.
    I'm pretty sure the combat would make then again much more fun, if players would have again to focus on power to deal bursty damage and all conditions in the game are just there to support your combat style in battles, tactical elements that just only influence the outcome of the battles, but don't work like now as superior armor ignoring damage sources that are braindead to play and require of the players absolutely no skill, other than spammign the enemy ful lwith conditions and watchign braindeadly, like a mechanism does all the work for you, instead of your active skill in using direct attacks in either close or ranged combat.

    In regard of such a condition rework, I'd love to see Conditions that work like this:

    Poison = Reduces Heal Efficiency by 25% and reduces Ferocity of a Foe.
    Weakness = Reduces Critical Hit Chance and reduces Expertise of a Foe
    Cripple = Reduces Movement Speed by 33% and reduces Precision of a Foe
    Chill = Slows Skill Recharge Times by 50% and reduces Vitality of a Foe
    Burning = Reduces Endurance as you Move and reduces Concentration of a Foe
    Vulnerability = Increases Chance to be interrupted through AA's and reduces Toughness of a Foe
    Slow = Reduces Attack Speed by 50% and reduces Endurance Regeneration of a Foe
    Bleeding = Dodge Rolls hurt you now and reduces Healing Power of a Foe
    Torment = CC Effects last on you 50% longer and reduces Power of a Foe
    Immobilization = Stops your Movement and disables your Weapon Skills temporarely (Removal of Stun)
    Fear = Forces you to Run away and lets you lose Class specific Gameplay Ressources like Adrenaline, Initiative, Energy ect. (Removal of Taunt)
    Blindness = Chance of 90% to miss attacks and being hit has a Chance to interrupt you.
    Confusion = Removes Friendly Fire from affected Foes and brings Chaos under the Controls of a Foe, letting them suddenly move into maybe unwanted directions
    Exhaustion New - Skills gain longer Cast Times and reduces Wisdom of a Foe (Condition Damage changed to Wisdom, Wisdom increases now the Condition Efficiency of how strong the secondary Condition Effects affect your foes, no need anymore for Condition Damage as Attribute, if there woudl be no Damage dealing Conditions anymore that deal damage over time,

    This way we would have not anymore Conditions that deal any Damage over Time, Skills that perform these Conditions may deal self some kind of damage, but so more condition heavy a skill is, so lesser direct damage shold it deal. So lesse Condition heavy a skill is, so more direct damage should that skill be able to deal max, so that there would be a clear split between either focused on damage dealing, or beign focused on conditions and significantly lesser damage dealing .

    Stacking of Conditions could then also be removed, unless Anet woudl want to keep usign this mechanism for stackign of secondary Condition Effects to reduce stronger the attributes this way.

    Would be seriously interested into seeing, how and if this could seriously work out somehow xD


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
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  • @Mokoko.9825 said:

    Cleanses don't really help me so much against condi builds. I don't really understand people pulling cleanse card against people complaining about condi dmg. There is no immunity after cleansed, so they can just keep spamming condi on you until you die. Condis stack and tick fast :/

    So how long does it take to die? Well, since you get 5k condi dmg per tick on you, sometimes you won't even be able to get an heal spell off before condi kills you.

    Condi damage should not be such burst damage. It should not be an alternative to power builds. It should be just additional damage over time for using some certain skills.

    I can't tell you how much I hate condi builds..

    While I get your frustration, I have to ask, "What are you doing while the other player is applying the stacks of different conditions necessary to get up to 5K per second?" Do you not know their tells? No dodge or block on the skills which apply the most stacks? No stuns to lock them down while you apply your burst?

    Yes, condi can be applied fairly quickly, but so can direct damage. Most professions have less available invulnerability skills than they have available cleanses. A Herald power build can do 8.5K damage with Coalescence of Ruin and Hammer Bolt for 3-4K to a glass geared foe. At the same time, the protection and regen Facets they dropped to add Might/Fury runs for plenty long enough to kill their opponent. Vault can do way more than 5K per second and can be used 2-3 times in succession, then followed up by other high-damage attacks until it's ready again, if needed.

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    It's really funny how people were just fine with power builds reigning supreme for years and then suddenly conditions are also viable and everyone's mad.

    Huh yeah it's almost like the playerbase doesn't like conditions or something

    It isn't the player-base that doesn't like conditions, it's the subset of the player-base whose power builds reigned supreme who don't want to change.

    That said, there would be consequences to removing all damaging conditions.

    1) What would replace the damaging conditions? The game already has a lot of debuffs. How many more would have to be created?
    2) What effect would these debuffs have on damage? Remember, you'd be removing one of the two sources of damage, so the debuffs would have to add damage somehow to compensate.
    3) Would ANet have to redo a lot of animations? If they don't redo them, the people who can't seem to ID the skills would have just as much trouble IDing them to be able to avoid the high direct damage these skills would now do.
    4) What effect would making such a change have on balance patches? A radical change to how damage is applied would doubtless involve the balance team. That could delay ongoing balance patches.
    5) Who would be angry? ANet cannot even give something away without getting some people upset. If Condi is that much of a problem, there must be a lot of people using it. Some of them are not going to be happy. People who'd geared for condi damage would need to take whatever steps are needed to re-gear. That would generate complaints.
    6) Gear would have to change. A lot of prefixes would either be dropped or altered. Who would do that? What impact would this have not only on balance patches, but on content patches?

    There could be other consequences I'm not thinking of. Frankly, though, the above would be enough to make the change prohibitive in terms of impact on things other people want. Adjusting outlier condi builds would be a lot simpler.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Really, all it needs is reduce damage. Atm Condition is safer AND is dealing more damage than Power. Why not immediately fix that? It's a no brainer. Condition should be less damage because it's safer.

  • @Orpheal.8263 said:
    I'd seriously love to see a GW2 experiment (for example be it just for aprils fools day or for a test weekend to just see the reactions of us players), how a GW2 would run, if the Condition System would be so overworked, that there are no damaging conditions anymore.
    I'm pretty sure the combat would make then again much more fun, if players would have again to focus on power to deal bursty damage and all conditions in the game are just there to support your combat style in battles, tactical elements that just only influence the outcome of the battles, but don't work like now as superior armor ignoring damage sources that are braindead to play and require of the players absolutely no skill, other than spammign the enemy ful lwith conditions and watchign braindeadly, like a mechanism does all the work for you, instead of your active skill in using direct attacks in either close or ranged combat.

    In regard of such a condition rework, I'd love to see Conditions that work like this:

    Poison = Reduces Heal Efficiency by 25% and reduces Ferocity of a Foe.
    Weakness = Reduces Critical Hit Chance and reduces Expertise of a Foe
    Cripple = Reduces Movement Speed by 33% and reduces Precision of a Foe
    Chill = Slows Skill Recharge Times by 50% and reduces Vitality of a Foe
    Burning = Reduces Endurance as you Move and reduces Concentration of a Foe
    Vulnerability = Increases Chance to be interrupted through AA's and reduces Toughness of a Foe
    Slow = Reduces Attack Speed by 50% and reduces Endurance Regeneration of a Foe
    Bleeding = Dodge Rolls hurt you now and reduces Healing Power of a Foe
    Torment = CC Effects last on you 50% longer and reduces Power of a Foe
    Immobilization = Stops your Movement and disables your Weapon Skills temporarely (Removal of Stun)
    Fear = Forces you to Run away and lets you lose Class specific Gameplay Ressources like Adrenaline, Initiative, Energy ect. (Removal of Taunt)
    Blindness = Chance of 90% to miss attacks and being hit has a Chance to interrupt you.
    Confusion = Removes Friendly Fire from affected Foes and brings Chaos under the Controls of a Foe, letting them suddenly move into maybe unwanted directions
    Exhaustion New - Skills gain longer Cast Times and reduces Wisdom of a Foe (Condition Damage changed to Wisdom, Wisdom increases now the Condition Efficiency of how strong the secondary Condition Effects affect your foes, no need anymore for Condition Damage as Attribute, if there woudl be no Damage dealing Conditions anymore that deal damage over time,

    This way we would have not anymore Conditions that deal any Damage over Time, Skills that perform these Conditions may deal self some kind of damage, but so more condition heavy a skill is, so lesser direct damage shold it deal. So lesse Condition heavy a skill is, so more direct damage should that skill be able to deal max, so that there would be a clear split between either focused on damage dealing, or beign focused on conditions and significantly lesser damage dealing .

    Stacking of Conditions could then also be removed, unless Anet woudl want to keep usign this mechanism for stackign of secondary Condition Effects to reduce stronger the attributes this way.

    Would be seriously interested into seeing, how and if this could seriously work out somehow xD

    ++++++1111111, this would be such a nice idea to have this game much much more funny... unfortunately, they will never do it, they should rebalance everything, and off course admit that the condi patch from june 2015 was a completely mess, wich they will never do

  • @Etienne.3049 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    As a gameplay element, most people find it unfun.

    I doubt this, I know there's a number of very vocal people who hate conditions for some reason or other, but to conclude most people don't like it seems nonsensical.

    @Snowywonders.1378 said:
    GW1 was like that,

    You mean with conditions like burning and poison and many hexes that, in GW2, have been merged into conditions? No, no it wasn't.

    @Mokoko.9825 said:

    Cleanses don't really help me so much against condi builds. I don't really understand people pulling cleanse card against people complaining about condi dmg. There is no immunity after cleansed, so they can just keep spamming condi on you until you die. Condis stack and tick fast :/

    Cleansing isn't supposed to let you ignore an entire opponent or just get a free win against any condition build, of course there's no free immunity with it. And power builds can just keep spamming damage on you until you die, that's how combat works, you damage each other until one of you dies. If you expect the single fact you equiped a cleanse to give you a free win against any condition build you're expecting way too much.

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    Have you ever thought about what guild wars would be like without damage conditions? Condi is a great concept that brings a new way to play to guild wars, but in practice it just outperforms power based gameplay. If the game was power only, what would happen? I'm guessing heavy classes would probably have an easier time facetanking masses of incoming damage. Could we perhaps transform all damage condis into debuffs? lets hear your thoughts

    Toughness would be stronger; the people who complain about conditions now would probably die just as often, just more quickly, as power damage is applied instantly.
    What sort of debuffs were you thinking about, because that matters a lot. But there's a good chance conditions would then only be viable in (semi-)organised groups.
    Now luckily they'll (probably) never go for this as (I assume they realise) most complaints about conditions are based on people not understanding conditions (they do more damage in average situations because they have more counters) or insisting all condition builds be taken together for balancing while (presumably) wanting power builds balanced by build.

    Now if there are specific skills or builds that happen to use conditions that are overpowered then those should be nerfed, but keep the complaints about those and don't assume you should never die from one of the two damage types.

    GW1 did not have condi builds, you were capped at like -10 pips unlike gw2 where condi burst builds exist, but good job you missed the whole point and can argue semantics, you should be proud.

  • Panda.1967Panda.1967 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    Power spoke damage is no easier to notice that Condi spike damage. This is a false statement. Why do so many people say condi still damage when using defensive skills? You used the skills at the wrong time. Why not use the skills before the conditions were applied not after. Also that conditions maniacally tend to appear on you.

    Before the conditions were applied? You can only cleanse condis that are already on you, meaning you have take the hit before you can heal it.

    Invuln prevents incoming Conditions
    Blocking prevents incoming Conditions
    Dodging prevents incoming Conditions
    Reflects prevent and return incoming Conditions

    So yes, using defensive abilities before conditions hit IS effective. It's just like trying to counter Power. They don't do you any good to be used after the fact.

    You complained earlier about Condi cleanse not providing temporary immunity... do you believe healing should have temporary damage immunity? Of course not, no one does. It's the same thing.

    Please stop assuming I'm a male, I am female.

  • Yes, there was a time when damage condis borderline didn't exist. That time sucked. Hence they were changed to something useful.

  • Fipmip.7219Fipmip.7219 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Panda.1967 said:

    Invuln prevents incoming Conditions
    Blocking prevents incoming Conditions
    Dodging prevents incoming Conditions
    Reflects prevent and return incoming Conditions

    So yes, using defensive abilities before conditions hit IS effective. It's just like trying to counter Power. They don't do you any good to be used after the fact.

    You complained earlier about Condi cleanse not providing temporary immunity... do you believe healing should have temporary damage immunity? Of course not, no one does. It's the same thing.

    Alright I'll bite. Power strikes are often done over time in the form of combos - combos you can react to and hit renewed focus or something. Rarely do you get hit for 12345 damage in a single strike. Now condis - If you get hit by say a firebrand using searing burst into a judges intervention, bam you're getting 5k ticks into something you now cannot block, evade, reflect, etc. whats more, classes like these often continue to apply a steady stream of condis even after the initial torrent - it only takes a few stacks to be doing a decent amount of free dps to a character, so even if you anticipated as opposed to reacted to (key imbalance here), you still need to contend with further condis. further still, these classes may not be all condi. power is still there and it's still hitting you, on top of the condi that you're trying to manage. further still many condis are applied as pulsing aoes, meaning things like timely aegis, evades, blocks, invulns or even blinds will only delay the application by a second or two.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    whats more, classes like these often continue to apply a steady stream of condis even after the initial torrent....so even if you anticipated as opposed to reacted to (key imbalance here), you still need to contend with further condis.

    You anticipate and react to both types of damage. Users of either damage type will attempt reapply their damage after you are done doing whatever you are doing. People wont stop attacking you after their initial burst attempt hits/misses.

    only takes a few stacks to be doing a decent amount of free dps

    I don't understand how it is free.

    further still many condis are applied as pulsing aoes, meaning things like timely aegis, evades, blocks, invulns or even blinds will only delay the application by a second or two.

    Its the same with power damage. Both damage types are full of cleave, aoes, multi hit attack etc etc.

  • jheryn.8390jheryn.8390 Member ✭✭✭

    @Menzies The Heretic.3415 said:
    Conditions should not be able to spike you to death under a second. Also, a power spike is easier to notice, allowing a player to pop a block or invul, all while applied conditions happily kill you while you're using your defensive skills. Some conditions require no player input to be applied (see vid where Svanir gets killed by idle elementalist), or very little effort.

    If you have a harder time noticing a condi skill then use a cleanse after it happens. Many people complain about having to equip some sort of cleanse because it "messes or decreases" their build. Condi people have the same problem in having equip a block or invul skill to prevent a power build from cutting them in half. So both sides have to defend against the other.

    As many have said, at least the first two years of this game were pretty much power driven and anyone wanting to use condi didn't bother because it meant nothing and was ineffective for the most part. Now that condi has teeth, people (mostly power players I would assume) are bemoaning something they have to defend against.

  • Vladish.3940Vladish.3940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    @Panda.1967 said:

    @Fipmip.7219 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    Power spoke damage is no easier to notice that Condi spike damage. This is a false statement. Why do so many people say condi still damage when using defensive skills? You used the skills at the wrong time. Why not use the skills before the conditions were applied not after. Also that conditions maniacally tend to appear on you.

    Before the conditions were applied? You can only cleanse condis that are already on you, meaning you have take the hit before you can heal it.

    Invuln prevents incoming Conditions
    Blocking prevents incoming Conditions
    Dodging prevents incoming Conditions
    Reflects prevent and return incoming Conditions

    So yes, using defensive abilities before conditions hit IS effective. It's just like trying to counter Power. They don't do you any good to be used after the fact.

    You complained earlier about Condi cleanse not providing temporary immunity... do you believe healing should have temporary damage immunity? Of course not, no one does. It's the same thing.

    It's not the same thing if you take under consideration the ease of application of conditions and that most of those defensive abilities have substantial cooldowns. Nowhere does defensive ability "spam" comes anywhere near to condition "spam." It's actually fairly easy to spam conditions on someone regardless of defensive options they try to use.

    As for physical damage, you can simply walk out of the range of it without having to use any defensives and negate entirely its effect. Conditions not only persist, but they can be made so powerful that unless you are off cooldown on all your defensive options, if you are a squishier class, someone can hit you with only few of their condis and simply walk away from you, and you will die regardless of what you try doing. They are different mechanics that are not equal. and if you gonna compare them, do so with a grain of salt.

    Healing is more useful against burst or as barely stalling tactics for condis (unless it has condi cleanse option), but it doesn't need non-condi damage immunity within itself, because you can walk away from that damage, which you can't do with condi.

  • I don't really understand people who defend the condi system. It just brings a real bad taste to the combat system.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 26, 2017

    It's not the same thing if you take under consideration the ease of application of conditions

    I always see spam this spam that yet I don't get it. How are conditions more easily applied than power damage?

    As for physical damage, you can simply walk out of the range of it without having to use any defensives and negate entirely its effect.

    You can do the same with any type of damage to prevent the application of new sources.

    Conditions not only persist

    Well technically you have already taken the hit and the damage.

    but they can be made so powerful that unless you are off cooldown on all your defensive options, if you are a squishier class, someone can hit you with only few of their condis and simply walk away from you, and you will die regardless of what you try doing.

    If you are out of cooldowns you will be far more vulnerable to any attacker regardless of damage type. If you are sufficiently squishy enough that someone managed to apply enough conditions to you to be able to kite away and watch you die when you are out of cooldowns/defenses then you would have been near instantly downed by power damage.

  • @Mokoko.9825 said:
    I don't really understand people who defend the condi system. It just brings a real bad taste to the combat system.

    Maybe, just maybe, it's because there are game modes other than PVP, where people enjoy different playstyles?

  • Panda.1967Panda.1967 Member ✭✭✭

    If you get hit with the first ability in a chain such as Igniting Burst and are anticipating Judges Intervention to follow, you CAN block the burn from Judges, leaving you with only the initial 3 stacks from Igniting. When dealing with pulsing AoE conditions you SHOULD dodge. Do you stand inside a pulsing Power AOE? No, you dodge out of it, unless you have Invuln available and believe you can pressure your opponent down during that invuln. People act as if countering Conditions are some new giant monster that requires a whole new set of tactics... Well, it's not. You can counter Conditions the same way you counter direct damage, the only difference is the addition of condi cleanse to remove existing conditions.

    If you prevent damage from an attack, you prevent conditions from the attack, plain and simple. If you play your defenses right, you can completely counter a condi build and only suffer from low stacks and can cleanse easily. The only people who should have problems with Condi are glass cannons who will have an equally hard time with power.

    Please stop assuming I'm a male, I am female.

  • Condi needs to be reworked to ramp up slowly, there should be no thing as "condi burst" because that defeats the whole purpose of damage over time, condi should start very weak but build up over time to be even more dps than it is now, just takes 15-30 seconds to ramp up hard instead of 2 seconds of ramp we have now

  • Etienne.3049Etienne.3049 Member ✭✭
    edited September 27, 2017

    @Fipmip.7219 said:
    When i say "as a gameplay element, most people find it unfun," I mean the part where they have to make builds that have mitigation against both power and condi, not the application of condis themselves. I'm sure if every single person ran a condi build, there'd be a lot less complaints. The fact that there is so much complaining is a big sign of a widespread distaste.

    You're still claiming to speak for the majority without backing that up in any way. And no, the fact there is so much complaining only shows there's at least a few people who dislike it a some of whom are very vocal about it.
    Personally I don't mind having to keep in mind what my opponents might be running in PvP when making a build in the slightest.

    @Snowywonders.1378 said:
    GW1 did not have condi builds, you were capped at like -10 pips unlike gw2 where condi burst builds exist, but good job you missed the whole point and can argue semantics, you should be proud.

    I suppose the "that" was supposed to refer to Mokoko's post then?
    I figured you were refering to the subject of this thread (i.e. no damaging conditions) you could have been a bit clearer on that, (for instance by quoting the post you refer to).

    @Mokoko.9825 said:
    I don't really understand people who defend the condi system. It just brings a real bad taste to the combat system.

    I don't at all understand people who complain about conditions with no or fallacious arguments.
    Also let me explain why people defend things you don't like: Different people like different things, shocking isn't it?

    @Vladish.3940 said:
    As for physical damage, you can simply walk out of the range of it without having to use any defensives and negate entirely its effect. Conditions not only persist, but they can be made so powerful that unless you are off cooldown on all your defensive options, if you are a squishier class, someone can hit you with only few of their condis and simply walk away from you, and you will die regardless of what you try doing. They are different mechanics that are not equal. and if you gonna compare them, do so with a grain of salt.

    Healing is more useful against burst or as barely stalling tactics for condis (unless it has condi cleanse option), but it doesn't need non-condi damage immunity within itself, because you can walk away from that damage, which you can't do with condi.

    You can't walk out of the range of a power attack and negate the damage you've already taken, can you? Because that's the equivalent of conditions on you, it's the attacks you've allowed to hit you; if I were to use the new Plague skill where you stand you could definitely walk out of it and avoid the worst of it but not the pulses that already hit you, just like walking out of a Well of Suffering won't give you back the health you've already lost to it (although unlike the damage from the well of suffering you could still try to counter the conditions that are already on you (for instance by cleansing or applying Resistance)).
    What seems like "few of their condis" to you probably costs them quite some skills, if it doesn't the problem is probably the skills/build used, not conditions in general.
    Yeah, there're different mechanics alright, when you take a lethal amount of power damage you're down, when you take a potentially lethal amount of conditions you might still be able to do something about that before you'd go down.
    You can't walk away from damage you've taken and you can't simply walk away from conditions that already have been applied to you, seems reasonable to me.

    And on a power build the other guy probably wouldn't have to walk away as you'd be down already, he'd actually be able to finish you (when you go down you lose all conditions).

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If there were no damage conditions in Guild Wars, the game would become a total bore. I would rather see power removed from the game than conditions.

  • Condi builds were never the issue. There was always a way around of beating them or at least stale mate/run away. It's the larger scale fights that make condi pretty op and now that there is EVEN more noon strip in the game condis are stronger then ever.

  • @lothefallen.7081 said:
    If we just had dedicated, effectual healing roles, the interplay of condi vs. power would be strategic and balanced instead of something that over-centralizes the requirement of cleanse on every class, regardless of build. You could offload a bit of the responsibility and make another role viable, only really adding to the depth of the combat, which is something that the game severely needs.

    We technically have those roles.

    The problem is that the extremely short TTKs and reactionary defenses GW2 adopted to make the PvE interesting and dynamic are simply not any fun in PvP.

    GW1 was a game very much about countering opponents with mitigation skills, but unlike GW2, It took a fair amount of damage to drop a player, healing was often sufficient to completely shut down incoming damage, and being able to efficiently interrupt the enemy or break them out of their range was key to combat.

    GW2 keeps all the blocks, invulns, etc. but puts them on stupidly long cooldowns, forces you to use a very small selection of skills, and makes the cast time for even the strongest abilities 1/4 of a second, a cast time reserved for "weak" or "utility" abilities in GW1 because it was so hard to counter. The abilities are designed this way because they're more "fun" but in reality a game in which there is no readable cast bar that relies so heavily on directly countering "power" abilities with such short cast times WHILE manually maintaining range and line of sight is going to be frustrating.

    Conditions aren't GW2's problem. Too little health, too short cast times, and a combat system designed for PvE and never sufficiently altered to make it compelling in PvP is its problem. Conditions are just a symptom of having a system that encourages frontloading all of your damage because the overall goal is to kill the other guy before he can react at all in the first place. Conditions are the logical tool because they allow you to circumvent the weaknesses of the combat system by frontloading several seconds of damage in that crucial first contact that will continue to interfere with the opponent while leaving you free to concentrate on the "real fight" that happens after first contact when both players have less than half their HP.

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  • Zackie.8923Zackie.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    condi should be status effects. spike damage should be power. the problem is condi DOT now is as spiky as power damage.

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2017

    @lothefallen.7081 said:
    If we just had dedicated, effectual healing roles, the interplay of condi vs. power would be strategic and balanced instead of something that over-centralizes the requirement of cleanse on every class, regardless of build. You could offload a bit of the responsibility and make another role viable, only really adding to the depth of the combat, which is something that the game severely needs.

    This is also the main problem I see. The problem with conditions isn't so much that they're too strong, it's that countering condition damage is handled very poorly in the game. This is why condition vs power isn't really a big issue in PvE but is a pretty big issue in PvP. It's way too much about running condi cleanse skills & traits in your build and not nearly enough about anything else.

    Here's what I think -
    a.) Condi cleanse should generally be weaker than it is. I.e. removing only a certain # of stacks or certain conditions
    a.) Regeneration should stack intensity
    b.) Vitality and Toughness should both be reworked. Vitality should be focused on countering burst damage by improving endurance regen. Toughness should be focused on countering sustained damage with total armor affecting physical damage and toughness alone affecting condition damage.

  • The solution to this is that we need more resistance in the game.

  • Loosmaster.8263Loosmaster.8263 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I hit a crab the other day and instantly got 5 stacks of burn. WTH?

    Playing the PvE scene because WvW is just "BAD"...

  • The problem with condition damage is it can burst kill. On top of that, the burst cycle is way too quick. Meaning you can cleanse and be bursted down right after.

  • Panda.1967Panda.1967 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2017

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    Here's what I think -
    a.) Condi cleanse should generally be weaker than it is. I.e. removing only a certain # of stacks or certain conditions
    a.) Regeneration should stack intensity
    b.) Vitality and Toughness should both be reworked. Vitality should be focused on countering burst damage by improving endurance regen. Toughness should be focused on countering sustained damage with total armor affecting physical damage and toughness alone affecting condition damage.

    a.) most condi cleanses already do only remove a certain number of stacks or certain conditions, there are very few that remove all active conditions.
    b.) I agree, regen should stack in intensity, its rather useless as a duration stack.
    c.) That would be terrible... HP stats like Vitality are important for any MMO that has even a remotely freeform build system, which GW2 does. Toughness shouldn't be split off from armor either, all you'd accomplish there is making a reliance on everyone to stack toughness to counter conditions and it'd be impossible to build high damage resistance builds since everyone in every armor class would have the same armor values. Instead, we should get 50% benefit of armor+toughness to condition damage. Some might try to reason "how will armor reduce the damage you take from a condition" well, lets look at bleeding as an example. If you get cut through armor, the cut isn't going to be as deep, the armor absorbed part of the impact and saved you from a more devastating injury, as a result you're bleeding less. If that's too strong, they could work it out to have them translate into reduced duration of incoming conditions.

    Please stop assuming I'm a male, I am female.

  • @Fipmip.7219 said:
    Have you ever thought about what guild wars would be like without damage conditions? Condi is a great concept that brings a new way to play to guild wars, but in practice it just outperforms power based gameplay. If the game was power only, what would happen? I'm guessing heavy classes would probably have an easier time facetanking masses of incoming damage. Could we perhaps transform all damage condis into debuffs? lets hear your thoughts

    What a difference a couple of years makes. It used to be conditions were sneered at.

  • Conditions had potential to provide a lot of role-diversity and counter-playing to the game. Developers just completely lost the way after the condition stacking rework and HoT powercreep, throwing condition applications, cleanses (and pretty much all of everything like boons, CC, ...) like no tomorrow all over the place.
    It should have not been hard to give every condition a purpose and avoid unnecesary condi application (like low duration bleed procs on power builds, short single vuln applications that hardly have a truly meaningful impact while contributing to condi clutter, ...). Just put condiiton applications where they are relevant and sought after and balance cleanse access and power accordingly.

    Imagine the following:

    *Bleeding: very high base duration with low damage, very low cleanse priority.
    This allows for builds which excel at small, long fights. You build your damage slowly and use your cover sources wisely. Your enemy, on the other hand, has to avoid those covers and use his cleanses strategically.
    Since the base duration is very high and you're fighting mostly against cleanses, there's probably no point in investing on expertise, which leaves two stat slots for defense/sustain (if those amulets would still exist).
    It would be, basically, the condi-bunker foundation: great for stale (and eventually win) 1on1 side fights, but unable to burst or seriously partake on a burst.

    *Poison: high base duration with low damage, healing reduction, low cleanse priority.
    It has it's place for condi bunkers/bruisers. It adds slow built damage, can cover bleed and reduces enemy sustain. The last effect alone makes it also useful for bruisers, even power ones, and more effective for teamgifhts.

    *Burning: low base duration with high damage, high cleanse priority.
    This one would be the foundation for a balanced-offensive condi build.
    A small but consistent burning application could be a little better than power pressure as it benefits from another aspect of conditons: bypassing armor, protection and weakness (the aforementioned condi bunker? he probably invested on some of these things, which are useless against burning) while probably not being owrth a cleanse. Bursting, even if possible, would be harder on the other hand due the high cleanse priority.
    Since the duration is low, expertise might have a place depending the kind of build you're trying to create.

    *Confusion: very low base duration with very hygh damage on skill usage, very high cleanse priority.
    Basically a control condition. Worse than hard CC for burst setup, but longer (specially if investing in expertise) and probably better for peeling or shut-down purposes.

    Torment: Removed. Probably unnecessary if applications and cleanses are properly balanced.

    Obviously damage and duration should be tweaked for PvE, as you don't want to have condi players stacking bleeds for a long time befoe they start doing reasonable damage.

  • Cuddy.6247Cuddy.6247 Member ✭✭✭

    Sustain is a bigger problem than damage. PvE and WvW are quickly delivering environments where even using wanderer or minstrel's gear doesn't actually improve durability nearly enough to combat the condi system. Every game mode is going different directions and they all use the same fundamentals in builds. That should be seen as a major problem to anyone of sound mind.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭

    @PopeUrban.2578 said:

    @lothefallen.7081 said:
    If we just had dedicated, effectual healing roles, the interplay of condi vs. power would be strategic and balanced instead of something that over-centralizes the requirement of cleanse on every class, regardless of build. You could offload a bit of the responsibility and make another role viable, only really adding to the depth of the combat, which is something that the game severely needs.

    We technically have those roles.

    The problem is that the extremely short TTKs and reactionary defenses GW2 adopted to make the PvE interesting and dynamic are simply not any fun in PvP.

    GW1 was a game very much about countering opponents with mitigation skills, but unlike GW2, It took a fair amount of damage to drop a player, healing was often sufficient to completely shut down incoming damage, and being able to efficiently interrupt the enemy or break them out of their range was key to combat.

    GW2 keeps all the blocks, invulns, etc. but puts them on stupidly long cooldowns, forces you to use a very small selection of skills, and makes the cast time for even the strongest abilities 1/4 of a second, a cast time reserved for "weak" or "utility" abilities in GW1 because it was so hard to counter. The abilities are designed this way because they're more "fun" but in reality a game in which there is no readable cast bar that relies so heavily on directly countering "power" abilities with such short cast times WHILE manually maintaining range and line of sight is going to be frustrating.

    Conditions aren't GW2's problem. Too little health, too short cast times, and a combat system designed for PvE and never sufficiently altered to make it compelling in PvP is its problem. Conditions are just a symptom of having a system that encourages frontloading all of your damage because the overall goal is to kill the other guy before he can react at all in the first place. Conditions are the logical tool because they allow you to circumvent the weaknesses of the combat system by frontloading several seconds of damage in that crucial first contact that will continue to interfere with the opponent while leaving you free to concentrate on the "real fight" that happens after first contact when both players have less than half their HP.

    Perfect post, 100% agree. This posting just sums up perfectly everything, why I'm proposing for several years by now already, that ANet has to update finalyl their outdated combat system elements which they kept on ignoring, while permanrently focusing themself only onto Skills and Traits - completely forgetting, that the Combat system of GW2 consists out of alot more mechanisms that play an important role for Class and Game Balance.

    With the June 23rd patch from 2015 ANet ruined completely the game Balance and they haven't done anything about this situation since then.
    The Game uses still many of the outdated 2012er Game Balance Elements of the Conmbat System, which where designed and balanced around the fact, that all classes deal ALOT LESSER damage with their skills, the Game Balance from 2012 was based around the fact, that no Elite Specializations and all their Traits/Skills didn't even exist - so couldn't be even part of the game balance and Combat System Elements to be considered into the balancing thoughts for the game at all. The 2012er System and Game Balance State also didn't include the Revenant Class, because it just didn't exist and couldn' be considered being part of the Game Balance.
    At 2012 all combat system elements, especialls the Base Health System, the Upgrades , the Attribute System and all the other stuff Anet keeps on ignoring now for 5 years was balanced and designed around the fact also, that Conditions back then dealt alot lesser damage/second, that Confusion is no DOT, but just reactive damage only and that there exists also no Torment and no Taunt, but on the counterside also no Resistance and no Alacrity.
    This are all things, which have heavy influence on the Game and Class Balance - far more influence on everything, than I guess what anet believes it has, that I think they are massively underestimating how strong they can change the Game Balance, if they would finally stop ignoring the other aspects of the Combat System and would not make always only changes on Skills and Traits.

    You can't expect to run always the newest Software perfectly smoothly on outdated Hardware. If you keep on updatign always only the Software, but not your Hardware as well, then will the system get crushed into itself like a house of cards sooner or later. You have to keep also your Gameplay Systems, your literal Hardware Side of the Game also too up to date, to ensure, that the game can adapt itself well enough to the made changes on the Software Side (Skill/Trait /Boon/Condition Changes)

    If ANet wants to have ever again a Game, that comes close to being balanced, then its about time now, that they:

    • Rework the Base Health System, remove the outdated Trinity System and change it into an individual Class Based System, this will give you in the end alot more Class Balancing Freedom and space to experimentate with Health Values for each Class individually, until you find for each of them the most ideal sweet spot, that feels beign balanced, without that other Classes get eventually punished or overbuffed in regard of Health, cause they share the same Base Health Pool with some other Classes.
    • Rework and Rebalance the Complete Boon and Condition System, with the goal to make them less spammy/effect cluttery. If possible reduce the amount of them, while making the remainign effects more impactful. If Conditions and Boons would have each primare and secondary Effects, then they could be alot more impactful and it could allow ANet to reduce the total amount of the effects eventually through merging here n there some effects as primary and secondary boon/condition effects.
      The clear design goal should also be, that Conditions shouldnt replace Power as Damage Source, Conditions should be there in first place to be supportive, to change eventually the outcome of a battle positively for you, but not to deal more damage ,than a physical combat build. GW2 is the only MMO I know, where the Combat system tries to make out of Damage Types some kind of weird "competition", where no competition has to be. We need only 1 single Damage Type and that is simply "Damage" that comes from Weapon Skills and the Weapon Skill is it, which just needs only to decide over it, if the SKill does low damage, but is very supportive for you in regard of variosu Effects, or if the Skill is less supportive, has not many effects, but deals thefore high damage or has good chances to be critical.
      Never understood, why ANet makes it here to overcomplicated with multiple Damage Types. They shoudl rather change Condition Damage to Condition Efficiency as an Attribute, which effects the impact of a Condition's secondary Effect, like proposed by me in my last posting, then woudl be Anet able to focus Damage Dealing completely onto balancing just only the Power Attribbute and its synergy between the other Attributes, hwat wpould make Class Balancing also also easier, if they wouln't have to lover over two Damage types anymore, that no one side of them becomes ridiculously far more powerful, than the other side.

    Then would you have to decide as a player only, if you want to be rather a Damage Dealer, or a Supporter in the first place, but there needs to be not also a split between Damage Dealer Types to make things more complicated, than necessary. Which is why I'd seriously love to see, howGW2 would run - anbd be it just for a test Weekend, how the Game Balance would be without damage dealing Conditions/no Condition Damage .

    • Upgrades are a big other point, which needs to get reworked and rebalanced. first of all, there needs to exist also ascended Runes, Sigils and Gemstones, so that we get finally Jeweler 500 for that and can craft our own ascended accessoires. it shoudl be the players full own choic,e if you make yourself your ascended accessoires, or of you want to earn them via fractals and other means, but the existance of fractals an other ways of earnign ascened accessoires is no reason not to give us also too Jeweler and Chef 500 as well.
      We need ascended upgrades, if this game ever wants to have an own integrated and working Build Template System, that allows players to quickly change ALL of their build relevant items. GW2 needs to receive a Build template system, which allows players everywhere in th game basically to switch quickly between saved builds, like in PvP, where you can change quickly with few clicks your weapons, upgrades ect. buy just cliocking what you want to use for your Build - and that Build just needs to be saveable then, so that you can switch with just 1 click between your saved builds - that would be a true QoL feature that woudl save your players alot of time!!
      Tons of the current existing Sigils and Runes are either overpowered, or just plain completely useless and haven't seen until today 1 single change to make them better/more useful.

    • Attributes, especially the defensive ones need reworks, so that they bcome finally same as equally useful and valuable for your character build, as like offensive attributes.

    • If you play a high defensive build, then you should see also a significant difference in the amount of receiving damage, compared to a non defensive build that should have significantly lesser health than you, should be able to dodge not so often like you (Endurance Regen being improved now through Vitality as well - Dual Attribute Effects!! How long am I now proposing how needed this is for making a more smooth Class Balance!)

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  • @Fipmip.7219 said:

    Alright I'll bite. Power strikes are often done over time in the form of combos - combos you can react to and hit renewed focus or something. Rarely do you get hit for 12345 damage in a single strike. Now condis - If you get hit by say a firebrand using searing burst into a judges intervention, bam you're getting 5k ticks into something you now cannot block, evade, reflect, etc. whats more, classes like these often continue to apply a steady stream of condis even after the initial torrent - it only takes a few stacks to be doing a decent amount of free dps to a character, so even if you anticipated as opposed to reacted to (key imbalance here), you still need to contend with further condis. further still, these classes may not be all condi. power is still there and it's still hitting you, on top of the condi that you're trying to manage. further still many condis are applied as pulsing aoes, meaning things like timely aegis, evades, blocks, invulns or even blinds will only delay the application by a second or two.

    1) There is no Searing Burst that I can find. Did you mean Searing Spell?
    2) Whether it's Searing Burst or Spell > Judges Intervention... well, that would be a combo, a combo someone could react to and block/dodge/etc. just as one can with power combos.
    3) If you look at Searing Spell > Judge's Intervention in the wiki, you see: SS adds 1 stack of burn, base damage 393 over 3 seconds, so 131 per tick; JI adds 3 stacks doing 1179 over 3 seconds. If the combined total of 4 stacks is doing 5K ticks, that's a problem with how the condition damage stat scales burn damage, not a problem with how burn is applied.
    4) If a power character strikes you for 5K damage, it's over. You missed your block, there's no retroactive cancel of that damage. If a condi character hits you for 5k ticks, you can cancel the ongoing damage. Ongoing damage from conditions is not "free." It first has to hit, then if it does it can be cleansed.
    5) If a condi player is getting any decent power damage from a condi build, then he's glass, and a power character ought to be able to stomp him fast.
    6) If one exhausts one's blocks/dodges/etc. to a power character, one must be able to absorb further power burst attacks. Heck power #1 attacks can hit for anywhere from 1 to 5 K damage, sometimes in less than a second.
    7) Some power AoE attacks also pulse. I doubt you'd expect to be advocating players be able to stand in those with impunity.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • For me it's simple It is far more fun to fight against power builds than condition builds because of the way they work. When I'm facing a power build it's a simple interaction. They hit me I take damage, If I use a skill that makes me immune to damage, or I am out of their range they cannot damage me. We try to use CC to set up burst windows while denying the same from our opponent is a game of give and take until one of us is dead. Win or lose it's enjoyable.

    When I am facing condition builds nothing is so cut and dry. When they attack me I get a condition, when I attack them I get a condition, when I move I take damage, when I use a skill I take damage, when I remove conditions I still have conditions on me, when I use a skill that makes me immune to damage I'm still taking damage from conditions. If I leave their range, I'm still taking damage if I CC them down I'm still taking damage. On top of this interaction, they get all the benefits of power builds, crit, burst, front loading, with all the benefits of sustainability. The fights often feel like a slog, where one side seems to have little interest in actually fighting.

    It also does not help that these rules for conditions are simply not how DoTs work in any other MMO. So when newer players encounter this there is a moment of "kitten!!?!" As they get destroyed in 5 different ways without any idea of how they died or what they needed to do differently. Alternately When I cleave them in half with my greatsword the events of the fight are obvious to understand.

    Does this mean conditions are overpowered? Not necessarily, but it does mean they are not fun to play against at all. It's the reason why we build not only our characters but our team compositions with conditions in mind while power is just an afterthought.

    TLDR: Conditions are not fun for players to play against. This will be a complaint until they are, or the game ends.

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