suggest the nerf (or buff) you want(with logic)

i dont understand why people say nerf mirage nerf necro nerf firebrand etc.they should talk about the reason, the skill or trait why its OP

i believe there is no class that cannot be killed (i have meet good bunker take on 2 and not die but with time even they can be killed and every thing has counter)so tell us about what trait line you want to improve or nerf here rather then chant nerf! this nerf! that

now just because something is quite powerfull like mirage does not mean its trait line such as insperation cant be buffed(that line is baddd) or warriors tactic trait line and banners skill (they are wvw or pve in every sense so they should work different in pvp) focuse skill to boost diversefied class build, core engineir need buff specialy kits

some suggestion would be likewarrior

• banners giving pulsing buff but only to 5 target and increasing buff by something like 1.5 times (170*1.5= 255)and reducing cd and duration on them to make them small time buff skill (that cant be corrupt by necro ye reliable source of boon that cant be corrupted )thief
  • pistol 4 and 5 need rework it used to be 1 second daze for 4 initiative now its 1/3 ,sword piston 3rd skill give 1/3 stun and heavy damage
  • 5th skill of pistol create pulsing blidness which is good but the range of aoe is 120(close range skill 1st skill of all classes have higher range of 130 or higher this is an aoe )and this is not targetable or cause damage cost whole 5 initiative (you can gain stelth with dagger move 900 with bow(for 6) and 600 distace with rifle for same amount)
  • bow skill 2nd and 4 projectile speed is absolutly garbage its aoe skill and in a game where people move constanly this is disastorous all thief use it for single skill of shadow step (5th) and no other skill is used , if projectile speed is incresed for both skill or is instant (because seriouly they are underpower and no other aoe has projetile wait this stupid in every sense) as for 2nd skill detonate just remove cast time and give delay time from it the skill do barely damage if not detonated
  • and please make them no projectile they are useless otherwise

suggestion , thoughts somethig(just dont shout nerf this bufff that etc)

Necro staff auto needs a buff since it can be outrun without even paying attention. Its nearly impossible to hit moving targets and if you do it only really regens your life force

I like to see both a buff and a nerf to P/P thief.

The main point of even running this weapon set was applying constant pressure from the "back lines" but as it stands right now P/P on thief has no real purpose anymore as it's pretty much outclassed by rifle in every way. What I'd like to see is this weapon set changed towards more of a "duelist" kind of playstyle to properly differentiate it from rifle (which also actually fits more thematically).

But there are two main problems here, the lack of sustainability and the lack of proper utility.

Unload is way to cost intensive for how easy it is to play around it. I wouldn't change much about this skill and I definitely wouldn't buff it's damage (at least not in PvP based modes) as it would turn the skill into another "nuke" and rifle already fits that role but the cost has to go down (as in at least half of what it is rn and the regained ini by successful execution should be at least tripled). Not primarily to make it more "spammable" (although every build should be able to use it's most basic attack whenever it's needed) but to reduce the strain it puts on other weapon skills as initiative basically works like a shared cooldown for every skill and you generally wouldn't want to use your utility if this means that you can't attack properly anymore.

Speaking of utility, every weapon skill except unload (which should be put into the first weapon skill slot (they can keep the ini cost)) should be replaced with new ones as most of them are either redundant or to situational (ofc.without affecting P/X / X/P builds). The main reason P/P "only uses 3" is the lack of other things to use and this has to change. If P/P had good utility skills then it wouldn't be such a one trick pony and it would actally be able to put up a decent fight without having to rely on one skill all the time.

But in exchange for better performance in direct combat I'd also tone down the stealth a bit, as unload is (and should be) the main source of damage I would add the revealed debuff to it so the P/P thief would have to cut back on one of his main "defences" once he engaged in combat.

holo cds need to be increased imo. a 600 range leap on a 2 sec cd and 66% stab uptime (with no boon duration) on #3 is broke.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:holo cds need to be increased imo. a 600 range leap on a 2 sec cd and 66% stab uptime (with no boon duration) on #3 is broke.

It's 600 only if you hit the target, otherwise it's 450. Plus, gives only 3 secs of quickness and generate heat percentage that can bring to a known mechanic called overheating, which is deadly and suicidal for the Holosmith itself. Stability generated from corona burst is only 4 and 1/2 seconds, 5 and 1/2 seconds with runes of leadership. Although stab given by Soulbeast's stance or Rampage with much longer duration is fine right?

In b4, yes I main holo.

(Luckly we should've got suggestions with logic, right?)

@Xarimath.4518 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:holo cds need to be increased imo. a 600 range leap on a 2 sec cd and 66% stab uptime (with no boon duration) on #3 is broke.

Are you seriously comparing corona burst to an ELITE and a UTILITY SKILL???

OP, your post was so hard to read... Please try formatting your text if you want to create a real discussion.

My only contribution to this will be: People typically aren't logical when asking for nerfs. They don't usually play the class they're suggesting a nerf on, and they, therefore, don't understand that class.

A good example is two posts or so above mine: Somebody asks for Holosmith nerfs without understanding the mechanics of the build, or the counter mechanism, which is heat.

My absolute favorite thing is when folks conflate two entirely different builds on one class into one mega-strong ultimate class that rolls over everything. The only problem is it doesn't typically exist.

Good luck keeping this discussion logical and on track, though! I hope a great deal of good comes from it. (No sarcasm)

In terms of mirage, breaking stun, while using a skill while basically you have no idea when the mirage is evading because of mirage cloak, that is also 33% longer than a normal dodge , that dodge happens to not interrupt revive and actions is a verrrrrrrrry bad design, i remember when we QQ-d about drd Dash and they gave us mirage clap clap, dash got nerfed because of reasons and a class like this aint? good joke

@Menyus.4610 said:In terms of mirage, breaking stun, while using a skill while basically you have no idea when the mirage is evading because of mirage cloak, that is also 33% longer than a normal dodge , that dodge happens to not interrupt revive and actions is a verrrrrrrrry bad design, i remember when we QQ-d about drd Dash and they gave us mirage clap clap, dash got nerfed because of reasons and a class like this aint? good joke

Oh oh and i forgot superspeed too cos reasons, a class with 1000000x teleport freakin needs it, but be sure anet to not give swiftness or movementspeed bonus to vanilla thief it might be op then, oh and mirage can cleanse condition on dodge too cos reasons

@Menyus.4610 said:

@Menyus.4610 said:In terms of mirage, breaking stun, while using a skill while basically you have no idea when the mirage is evading because of mirage cloak, that is also 33% longer than a normal dodge , that dodge happens to not interrupt revive and actions is a verrrrrrrrry bad design, i remember when we QQ-d about drd Dash and they gave us mirage clap clap, dash got nerfed because of reasons and a class like this aint? good joke

Please list the 10000 teleports andd put them all in one build?Mirage removes one condition when dodgingGets 1s of superspeedAnd EM has exhaustion on it. Same treatment Daredevil dash got.Mirage dodges in place not like the rolling dodge everyone else has ( which imo was a silly concept ). It's the reason for the longer evade.

Yea this thread was doomed from inception. Sorry OP. But too many people like this poster above don't know how classes work. Resort to hyperbole and just ask for nerfs without understanding or logic.Hopefully you get civil responses based on logic and understanding but this is the spvp forums, and that generally doesn't exist here.

@Tact.8063 said:i dont understand why people say nerf mirage nerf necro nerf firebrand etc.they should talk about the reason, the skill or trait why its OP

i believe there is no class that cannot be killed (i have meet good bunker take on 2 and not die but with time even they can be killed and every thing has counter)so tell us about what trait line you want to improve or nerf here rather then chant nerf! this nerf! that

now just because something is quite powerfull like mirage does not mean its trait line such as insperation cant be buffed(that line is baddd) or warriors tactic trait line and banners skill (they are wvw or pve in every sense so they should work different in pvp) focuse skill to boost diversefied class build, core engineir need buff specialy kits

some suggestion would be likewarrior

• banners giving pulsing buff but only to 5 target and increasing buff by something like 1.5 times (170*1.5= 255)and reducing cd and duration on them to make them small time buff skill (that cant be corrupt by necro ye reliable source of boon that cant be corrupted )thief
  • pistol 4 and 5 need rework it used to be 1 second daze for 4 initiative now its 1/3 ,sword piston 3rd skill give 1/3 stun and heavy damage
  • 5th skill of pistol create pulsing blidness which is good but the range of aoe is 120(close range skill 1st skill of all classes have higher range of 130 or higher this is an aoe )and this is not targetable or cause damage cost whole 5 initiative (you can gain stelth with dagger move 900 with bow(for 6) and 600 distace with rifle for same amount)
  • bow skill 2nd and 4 projectile speed is absolutly garbage its aoe skill and in a game where people move constanly this is disastorous all thief use it for single skill of shadow step (5th) and no other skill is used , if projectile speed is incresed for both skill or is instant (because seriouly they are underpower and no other aoe has projetile wait this stupid in every sense) as for 2nd skill detonate just remove cast time and give delay time from it the skill do barely damage if not detonated
  • and please make them no projectile they are useless otherwise

suggestion , thoughts somethig(just dont shout nerf this bufff that etc)

Elusive Mind should no longer stunbreak. Instead it should remove 2 condis. The reason is that this basically gives mesmer built-in stunbreaks, which allows it to substitute out stunbreak skills like Decoy which are used in specific builds (Decoy used to be popular in Power Shatter Chrono builds). Some people even choose not to play Blink anymore since Mirage has so much mobility. It's far more powerful than for example Dash in Daredevil, and unlike Daredevil, Mirage also has Vigor built-in to make up for the Exhaustion.

Buff: General funNerf: Heavily nerf Burst, Make playing defensive rewarding.

@Xarimath.4518 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:holo cds need to be increased imo. a 600 range leap on a 2 sec cd and 66% stab uptime (with no boon duration) on #3 is broke.

yeah theres no possible way for someone to defend the extremely low cds holo has. a for effort tho.

Without too much specifications:

No class should be able to personally generate more than 10 stacks of might.

Stability uptime should be reduced among most classes.

Many of the aoe CCs (especially ones added in PoF) need to be removed.

There needs to be an objective look at most of utilities and weapon skills. Most of them are obsolete or can only function in one game mode.

Boon removal/corruption needs major reduction.

Several builds need a roll back on boons uptime.

Stealth among most classes should be toned down by reducing spambility.

All condi builds outside of mirage and scourge are useless in sPvP. Something needs to change.

Sword weaver need a buff to be competitive at high level.

A range buff would be nice, most skill have 130 or 180 range and people can just outrun your skills too easely.

Make skills touch people, it could be nice.

Make all sword skills (dual skills too) having a minimum range of 300.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Xarimath.4518 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:holo cds need to be increased imo. a 600 range leap on a 2 sec cd and 66% stab uptime (with no boon duration) on #3 is broke.

Its swiftness not quickness for holo leap , stability (4 seconds) is only generated if take the trait and corona burst has to actually hit, 2 hits followed by AOE vulnerability 300 range. The counter is simple, step back or dodge then CC all you like. A good holo player will only use corona burst if they know they can hit, it is very counterable. Also, holo leap is so slow, asura does a double front flip before even landing it.

@Solori.6025 said:

@Menyus.4610 said:

@Menyus.4610 said:In terms of mirage, breaking stun, while using a skill while basically you have no idea when the mirage is evading because of mirage cloak, that is also 33% longer than a normal dodge , that dodge happens to not interrupt revive and actions is a verrrrrrrrry bad design, i remember when we QQ-d about drd Dash and they gave us mirage clap clap, dash got nerfed because of reasons and a class like this aint? good joke

Without going into the teleport section, I will say comparing Mirage dodge Tier 3 trait to Daredevil dodge Tier 3 trait is VERY different. Mirage breaks a stun and removes any condition with only this one trait, and doesn't get Exhaustion unless they break that stun with a dodge. If Thief happens to be chilled, crippled, or immobilized in their dodge, they get exhaustion and they don't break a stun. I would HAPPILY trade my Thief dodge for your Mirage dodge also considering that you have access to so much free stuff. OH! And Mirage exhaustion is 3 seconds, Daredevil exhaustion is 4 seconds. Again. Mirage dodge is amazing. Yes, it's in place. But you make clones that don't tend to strafe or dodge roll anywhere, which means now you blend in. That's far more difficult to handle than you give credit for considering you can continually break enemy targeting with abilities and a utility.

If I were to nerf something, I would nerf the way Mesmer can decide the level of interaction you have with them at any given time.If I were to buff something, I'd finally give Thief a way to apply burn. T-T Warrior, Guardian, Revenant, Ranger, Engineer, Elementalist, Necromancer, and Mesmer have burn. Why does Thief have 0 burn?

Nerf the constant thief stealth and port crap.

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@Tact.8063 said:i dont understand why people say nerf mirage nerf necro nerf firebrand etc.they should talk about the reason, the skill or trait why its OP

i believe there is no class that cannot be killed (i have meet good bunker take on 2 and not die but with time even they can be killed and every thing has counter)so tell us about what trait line you want to improve or nerf here rather then chant nerf! this nerf! that

now just because something is quite powerfull like mirage does not mean its trait line such as insperation cant be buffed(that line is baddd) or warriors tactic trait line and banners skill (they are wvw or pve in every sense so they should work different in pvp) focuse skill to boost diversefied class build, core engineir need buff specialy kits

some suggestion would be likewarrior

• banners giving pulsing buff but only to 5 target and increasing buff by something like 1.5 times (170*1.5= 255)and reducing cd and duration on them to make them small time buff skill (that cant be corrupt by necro ye reliable source of boon that cant be corrupted )thief
  • pistol 4 and 5 need rework it used to be 1 second daze for 4 initiative now its 1/3 ,sword piston 3rd skill give 1/3 stun and heavy damage
  • 5th skill of pistol create pulsing blidness which is good but the range of aoe is 120(close range skill 1st skill of all classes have higher range of 130 or higher this is an aoe )and this is not targetable or cause damage cost whole 5 initiative (you can gain stelth with dagger move 900 with bow(for 6) and 600 distace with rifle for same amount)
  • bow skill 2nd and 4 projectile speed is absolutly garbage its aoe skill and in a game where people move constanly this is disastorous all thief use it for single skill of shadow step (5th) and no other skill is used , if projectile speed is incresed for both skill or is instant (because seriouly they are underpower and no other aoe has projetile wait this stupid in every sense) as for 2nd skill detonate just remove cast time and give delay time from it the skill do barely damage if not detonated
  • and please make them no projectile they are useless otherwise

suggestion , thoughts somethig(just dont shout nerf this bufff that etc)

I agree with this. I think the trait should be a movement impairment reduction that removes 2 damaging conditions, Stunbreak on dodge was never a good idea but the devs didn't listen to the people that pointed this out.I disagree on the mobility as there isn't a viable build I have ever seen without blink or a stealth utility. Decoy used to be great when it also got the CD reduction from the illusion line. Now that the trait is gone I find that I see many more mesmers using Signet of Midnight. Since the power build and condi build both benefit from it. Portal in Spvp is a staple and must be taken if you are serious about helping your team win. So that really only leaves the option of losing either stealth OR blink, and as I have said, blink is imo too valuable.Daredevil and base theif have the option of getting either vigor on steal, which some use and some dont( I would think ripping boons off of classes like holo or SB would be more valuable, but that's just my view on it) OR going into the Acro line which (if we are talking about builds with no blink ) gives them a buffed vigor (100%) and increased duration on boons. Since most thieves now are playing one shot DE they have access to much more unhindered movement ( by being invisible) than any other class right now with the damage AND range on top, this isnt even mentioning Mal7.So currently Thief still has better mobility.

@StabbersTheThird.6053 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Menyus.4610 said:

@Menyus.4610 said:In terms of mirage, breaking stun, while using a skill while basically you have no idea when the mirage is evading because of mirage cloak, that is also 33% longer than a normal dodge , that dodge happens to not interrupt revive and actions is a verrrrrrrrry bad design, i remember when we QQ-d about drd Dash and they gave us mirage clap clap, dash got nerfed because of reasons and a class like this aint? good joke

If you have a target on the mirage then dodging wont remove it. If a mirage stealths then dodges to make a clone you will notice because the clone will have 100% health and no class bonus's or signet's ( and if that confuses a player that is simply a L2P issue)I have had no issues so far on a base warrior finding the real mesmer.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Xarimath.4518 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:holo cds need to be increased imo. a 600 range leap on a 2 sec cd and 66% stab uptime (with no boon duration) on #3 is broke.

Just to move back to this. I'm a main engi BTW and agree that either the dmg should lose a small percentage and the CDs could do with increasing a touch... but I genuinely feel that increasing the cooldowns will make photon forge a lot easier to play. Its very easy to hit a skill off cooldown and over heat yourself. By extending the CDs, you making it less likely to happen. For that reason, I think a 3-5(ish)% dmg reduction in PF skills would be a wiser rout to go down.

Buff PVP community brain

Holo Shockwave (the holo cc) extends too far. If you dodge backward when the holo hits the ground to start the blast wave, you still get hit by it, as it just keeps going back. At the same time, you don't want to dodge TOWARD the holo because they have a lot of melee burst damage, so getting a correct dodge on the skill is quite tricky. Suggest reducing the radius from 600 to 400ish to allow backward dodges to work.

@"Solori.6025" I don't mean ~finding~ the Mesmer. That's easy. I mean they have skills that literally say "break enemy targeting" and I noticed playing as and playing against Mesmer that it was possible to interrupt channeled abilities that required targets to be in front by using these skills. Add to that, break enemy targeting as a skill description is really tedious and enables amazingly potent combos because if you do them correctly your opponent cannot click on you. To be fair, the class with the most teleports/stealth/iframes also has a way to one shot a target with zero interactivity in under a second if they so desire, but they say "I press more buttons so it's ok". That's not that works either.

@StabbersTheThird.6053 said:@"Solori.6025" I don't mean ~finding~ the Mesmer. That's easy. I mean they have skills that literally say "break enemy targeting" and I noticed playing as and playing against Mesmer that it was possible to interrupt channeled abilities that required targets to be in front by using these skills. Add to that, break enemy targeting as a skill description is really tedious and enables amazingly potent combos because if you do them correctly your opponent cannot click on you. To be fair, the class with the most teleports/stealth/iframes also has a way to one shot a target with zero interactivity in under a second if they so desire, but they say "I press more buttons so it's ok". That's not that works either.

Second most teleports and not first in iframes if you want to actually be accurate and nowhere near first for stealth. Also there's a solid three target break skills, Illusionary Ambush is unreliable and Mirror Images is eh at best, the good one is Axe 3 and Axe 3 alone. Axe is probably not gonna be on a one shot build either, in fact the key to avoiding the one shot completely is to count to 2 or 3 upon seeing a Mesmer with a greatsword go into stealth and then just dodge. It's that easy. Channeled frontal skills would only be interrupted if the Mesmer was ported to the side or behind you which is completely RNG. Not that it would matter since that skill is an evade.

Buff Scrapper outgoing healing slightly, rework Med Kit #2 to be more reliable.

And having some sort of streamer pick it up so people can stop going "scrapper lul" wouldn't hurt either, its really not that bad, got my first Plat with it.