Confusion should function similar to retaliation — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Confusion should function similar to retaliation

Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

Confusion and retaliation are essentially sister status effects. One is a boon, and one is a condition, but both serves the purpose of punishing enemies for attacking. Retaliation only stacks in duration, but confusion stacks in intensity. That makes confusion too strong imo because it affects all skills that does not cleanse it, even auto attacks. Some builds are able to build over 15 stacks of confusion in a single burst combo. It's broken. This would be fair if confusion did not cause damage from every skill that does not cleanse it, but it does.

As long as confusion continues to affect auto attacks, heal skills, and even cleanse skills that fail to cleanse it, it should not stack in intensity. It should only stack in duration, similar to retaliation. And classes/builds should be rebalanced around that.

If confusion will continue to stack in intensity, then it shouldn't affect auto attacks, heal skills, and cleanse skills even if it fails to cleanse the confusion.

I expect a lot of backlash from this post, but this is my opinion. Confusion is too strong, and should be brought in line to the same level as retaliation.

TLDR: Confusion should stack in duration, not intensity, similar to retaliation. Balance classes around that, or make confusion not cause damage for using auto attacks, heal skills, and cleanse skills.

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Comments

  • NeroBoron.7285NeroBoron.7285 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    Oh God please no.

    Burning was a duration stacking effect back then and sucked. Specially when multiple people use that condition, only one deals actually damage and the others don't. Leaving all others rendered useless with a big DPS loss. There is a reason why all conditions are stacked now.

    In its current state it is a short lasting condition meant to be for burst IF the opponent uses skills. And yes 15 stacks or confusion hit hard, just like 10 stacks of burning hit hard. Just don't spam your skills. Its like not dodging a burst from a power class, you have to be punished. The difference is you still have the chance to cleanse it.

    And I know that feeling when other conditions then confusion gets removed pretty well. Specially when one has only access to skills that remove a single condition at a time. There should be more dedicated skills that remove only damaging conditions, as well as dedicated skills that remove only movement imparing conditions.

    With that we would have more control that actually the condition that is hurting us right now is removed.

    So skills could have effects like "Removing 2 damaging conditions" or "Removing all damaging conditions". There are already a few of those. Like engineers rocketboots for movement impaired conditions.

    Further protection should actually reduce condition damage as well.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭

    On this forum you can find excuse for having any broken kitten in this game . As for complaint about confusion -> stop spam skills , you cant ? Too bad you deserved to die ;)
    Dealing damage while doing nothing(facetanking damage) and taking damage while spamming skills ? How its similar?

  • How about no?

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    Confusion should remain stacking in intensity like all other damage conditions, but the stacking should have a cap of 25 stacks on players, and all damage conditions should have a total shared cap of about 50~60 stacks on players, so it's just not possible to have 25 of each damage condition on a player.

    That way conditions can't over-stack on players, while not losing any effectiveness against NPCs.

    Also, I would prefer if more boons also stacked in intensity, including retaliation.
    I would go as far as making Retalaition both stacking in intensity, and get is damage from a new stat instead from Power. Something like "Wisdom".
    Wisdom would increase the damage of all "indirect", "bonus" or "buffing" sources of damage: Life steal (affecting both damage and healing instead power and healing power), retaliation, pets, turrets, minions, spirit weapons, vengeful hammers, the added damage from Impossible Odds and One Wolf Pack, etc.
    And also increase the effectiveness of boons like might, so with 0 Wisdom a stack of Might would be a tad less powerful that now, but with 3000 Wisdom it'd be like 150% more effective than now. And of course just like when conditions were reworked to stack, the different sources of might would have their values adjusted.

    That way we would have 3 main 'damage' stats: Power, Condition Damage and Wisdom. Spreading damage source a bit, which would slow down power creep and allow AI builds to be stronger by having a stat that increases their damage, but also without being too strong, since the player gets power from Power, but AI from Wisdom.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Namless.4028 said:
    maybe retaliation should also stack in intensity...

    ultimate Guardian meta confirmed B)

  • Hiki.9310Hiki.9310 Member ✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    I expect a lot of backlash from this post, but this is my opinion. Confusion is too strong, and should be brought in line to the same level as retaliation.

    The only backlash I'm going to give is that mesmer is the only class stacking confusion too much, so only their confusion application should be nerfed. The confusion application is fine on everybody else, so the condition shouldn't be nerfed directly.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    @Hiki.9310 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    I expect a lot of backlash from this post, but this is my opinion. Confusion is too strong, and should be brought in line to the same level as retaliation.

    The only backlash I'm going to give is that mesmer is the only class stacking confusion too much, so only their confusion application should be nerfed. The confusion application is fine on everybody else, so the condition shouldn't be nerfed directly.

    Who is to say there won't be another class/build next meta that will be stacking confusion just as high or higher? That's why i think classes should be rebalanced for confusion only stacking in duration for the future.

  • Just because boon removal is far less frequent than condi removal it cannot happen. I do not like confusion as condition as well, but I agree with sugestion that cleanses and heals should not be triggering confusion. I would go even further. Punishing people for using their skills leave them in quite bad but manageble situation in 1v1 scenario. In 2v2 or above they are just free kills and more then 5 stack of confusion should be absolute maximum of stacks that target should have at the same time in pvp. Give mesmer tools to sustain 5 stacks for longer time rather than make them burst targets for 15 stacks fo lr 4 sec or so. It would give the target more time to react.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    Yet, confusion continues to be an issue. Hence, I've come up with a solution.

  • NeroBoron.7285NeroBoron.7285 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @NeroBoron.7285 said:
    Oh God please no.

    Burning was a duration stacking effect back then and sucked. Specially when multiple people use that condition, only one deals actually damage and the others don't. Leaving all others rendered useless with a big DPS loss. There is a reason why all conditions are stacked now.

    In its current state it is a short lasting condition meant to be for burst IF the opponent uses skills. And yes 15 stacks or confusion hit hard, just like 10 stacks of burning hit hard. Just don't spam your skills. Its like not dodging a burst from a power class, you have to be punished. The difference is you still have the chance to cleanse it.

    And I know that feeling when other conditions then confusion gets removed pretty well. Specially when one has only access to skills that remove a single condition at a time. There should be more dedicated skills that remove only damaging conditions, as well as dedicated skills that remove only movement imparing conditions.

    With that we would have more control that actually the condition that is hurting us right now is removed.

    So skills could have effects like "Removing 2 damaging conditions" or "Removing all damaging conditions". There are already a few of those. Like engineers rocketboots for movement impaired conditions.

    Further protection should actually reduce condition damage as well.

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion. If you try to wait it out, you end up with more stacks on you in the current meta. You can try to get lucky by cleansing it, but with the cover conditions, you may not get it, and instead you'll cleanse the wrong conditions, thus killing yourself by even using the skill. Confusion is overly punishing in its current state.

    Confusion can't be compared to burning because burning does not punish you for using skills. Confusion can only be compared retaliation.

    The burst comes from cry of frustration. Which has a base duration of 3 seconds. With 66% duration incrase we are at 5 sec. With 1400 condition damage confusion deals 186 damage per stack with 15 stack this is 2790 damage per skill. So using 4 skills is similar to a heavy burst skill, like warriors axe f1.

    So if you get hit by the burst that is the punishment. And 4 skills are still a decent usage. If you cleanse it with less then 4 skills it is still weaker then a power burst. And there are options to sit it out.

    Using a block or invul covers you for 3 seconds against further application (yes confusion will hit you once)

    Porting or leaping away and start kiting will help (yes confusion will hit you once)

    Dodge can still be used to evade the follow up damage without confu proc.

    And there is still resistance, negating the effect of confusion. Yes most classes beside the spellbreaker have limited access to it.

    Im not saying that it isn't strong, but that there are way better ways to handle that. And imo other stuff like protection that has to be adjusted instead. Or limiting the confusion procs to 1 per second.

    If you get confusion usually your team mates should cleanse it. In gw1 it was handled the same way with backfire and empathy.

    And no retaliation and confusion are different. Retaliation procs on hit basis. So using rangers longbow 5 hitting 5 targets 5 times, will proc retaliation 25 times. While confusion only procs once, due to skill basis.

    Ever tried an engineer with grenades in a wvw Zerg fight? Each skill throws 3 grenades hitting 5 people. Triggering 15 times retaliation. With about 250 damage per trigger, it deals about 3750 damage to yourself per grenade skill. Which is even more then 15 stacks confusion.
    I can't recommend using grenades in Zerg fights due to this 😅 same hard retaliation hits are caused by many other skills like guardians symbols or mesmers greatsword autoattack. And retailation got nerfed by 33% due to this in wvw and PvP. Else the damage would even be higher.

    And yes confusion could work on a hit basis as well and so on. But...

    ... You totally ignore the main aspect why I compared confusion with burning. Your idea would render the usage of multiple confusion sources useless. And that was already a no go for burning before and why it got changed to its current state. So I'm 99,99% sure that anet will not change any condition back to the state burning was back then.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭

    @NeroBoron.7285 said:
    Oh God please no.

    Burning was a duration stacking effect back then and sucked. Specially when multiple people use that condition, only one deals actually damage and the others don't. Leaving all others rendered useless with a big DPS loss. There is a reason why all conditions are stacked now.

    In its current state it is a short lasting condition meant to be for burst IF the opponent uses skills. And yes 15 stacks or confusion hit hard, just like 10 stacks of burning hit hard. Just don't spam your skills. Its like not dodging a burst from a power class, you have to be punished. The difference is you still have the chance to cleanse it.

    And I know that feeling when other conditions then confusion gets removed pretty well. Specially when one has only access to skills that remove a single condition at a time. There should be more dedicated skills that remove only damaging conditions, as well as dedicated skills that remove only movement imparing conditions.

    With that we would have more control that actually the condition that is hurting us right now is removed.

    So skills could have effects like "Removing 2 damaging conditions" or "Removing all damaging conditions". There are already a few of those. Like engineers rocketboots for movement impaired conditions.

    Further protection should actually reduce condition damage as well.

    "Damage over time (DoT)" should really mean "damage over time." Stacking conditions was very arguably the worst decision made in post-launch GW2 because it only further bloated the DPS-only game which already functioned optimally with (only needed) 3/8 of its original classes. The only decent thing to have done with the worthless conditions would have been to make them much rarer and turn them into conditional triggers as was done in GW1, but instead they just became "the other DPS," which opened the door for powercreep and exponential bloat generation. Now GW2 has more worthless skills, traits, weapons and gear options than ever.

  • Do you get hit by the active damage of confusion when weapon swapping? It happens with Elementlist's Attument swapping. I always hated that.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tom.8029 said:
    Do you get hit by the active damage of confusion when weapon swapping? It happens with Elementlist's Attument swapping. I always hated that.

    I had no idea that swapping attunements caused the active damage of confusion. It shouldn't be like that.

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    Yet, confusion continues to be an issue. Hence, I've come up with a solution.

    Nerfing something into the ground isn't a solution, or balance. You're better off making a thread about cleanse priority than coming up with a terrible solution, if you wanna call it that, for confusion.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    Yet, confusion continues to be an issue. Hence, I've come up with a solution.

    Nerfing something into the ground isn't a solution, or balance. You're better off making a thread about cleanse priority than coming up with a terrible solution, if you wanna call it that, for confusion.

    Cleanse priority is situational.

    Not everyone will like the idea of making confusion stack in duration instead of intensity. Seems fair to me and keeps the function of the condition. And I did list two conditions which would be better for confusion than the way it is live:
    1) Confusion doesn't stack in intensity, affects all skills.
    2) Confusion stacks in intensity, doesn't affect auto attacks, heals, and cleanse skills.

    Seems fair to me.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭

    People say it's a l2p issue. "You have confusion? Don't attack random like a monkey!" -cit.

    One problem, there isn't only confusion, there is torment, burning, bleeding, poison, cripple, chill together with confusion.

    If mirage is the "confusion master" should have access only to confusion, stop. Maybe blinds and cripples too, but not 4 plus different damaging conditions which covers each other.

    Same for scourge, maybe torment chill and cripple only. Stop.

    The problem with condis is one, they are too rewarding, you do your rotation and the enemy is flooded with 10 condis and you can even stop pressing keys in the keyboard and win, instead of planning when to use your main burst skills.

    For example if I play holo, which is overpowered and all, if I waste all my photon forge damage random into endure pain or stone signet I get punished for it.

    Releasing all your condi burst on someone with stab or any other boons, except resistance (which is only good on warriors and firebrands) won't have any negative effect, most of the times you boonrip or corrupt resistance anyway, you keep spamming and spamming until the opponent is out of everything and eventually dies.

    The most balanced condi class was probably burn guardian, it could oneshot you in few seconds, but you could react to it and cleanse it and fight back, burning was the only condi he was able to pull off and he had to play carefully and not spam all his main burst at once, else he dies.

    Mirage instead can indeed spam all his burst at once and still survive if it fails, and repeat repeat repeat.

  • Agreed with the suggestion to confusion not affecting autos, heals, and cleanses. I don't get why cleanses should be punished when you have interrupts for that.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Outsider.6051 said:
    Agreed with the suggestion to confusion not affecting autos, heals, and cleanses. I don't get why cleanses should be punished when you have interrupts for that.

    Any of those are skill use . If apply same logic quickness/slow shouldnt work on heal/auto attacks , skills that cause cleanse (and retal shoulnt do damage on auto attacks lul) lmao xD (a hint : wont happen)

  • Nath Forge Tempete.1645Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    BAsically when you have 15 stacks of confusion , you have the choice on trying to clean it and die .... or not doing anything and die . Great gameplay tho.

    AW AW ! Nvm you can hope for a random support firebrand to cleanse you or spam resistance that might be corrupted too . But basically you're dead alone.

    i'm Quite exaggerating there just for the funny fact.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    BAsically when you have 15 stacks of confusion , you have the choice on trying to clean it and die .... or not doing anything and die . Great gameplay tho.

    AW AW ! Nvm you can hope for a random support firebrand to cleanse you or spam resistance that might be corrupted too . But basically you're dead alone.

    i'm Quite exaggerating there just for the funny fact.

    You either have resistance/cleanse/dodge/pocket firebrand(use blink far away from mesmur)/do nothing this 3 seconds ? If you dont want then you clearly deserved to die ,like those who tank DJ (even if cuz of game desync doesnt show you laser or whatnot) thats just your problem :) . As I said before, we have excuses for invisible oneshots 60k WI(everything actually) ,but NERFED confusion ... ooo kitten so op :D

  • @Odik.4587 said:

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    BAsically when you have 15 stacks of confusion , you have the choice on trying to clean it and die .... or not doing anything and die . Great gameplay tho.

    AW AW ! Nvm you can hope for a random support firebrand to cleanse you or spam resistance that might be corrupted too . But basically you're dead alone.

    i'm Quite exaggerating there just for the funny fact.

    You either have resistance/cleanse/dodge/pocket firebrand(use blink far away from mesmur)/do nothing this 3 seconds ? If you dont want then you clearly deserved to die ,like those who tank DJ (even if cuz of game desync doesnt show you laser or whatnot) thats just your problem :) . As I said before, we have excuses for invisible oneshots 60k WI(everything actually) ,but NERFED confusion ... ooo kitten so op :D

    are you playing condi mirage? LUL condi application on this class is nuts. Scourge is kinda forgiven cause it spam corruptions on top of condi application ... but mirage has none.

    And AS I SAID ... I was exaggerating the situation cause it looked funny to me how poor the confusion design is in this game compared to GW1.

  • BeLZedaR.4790BeLZedaR.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    The only real issue is that even the skill cleansing the confusion will deal damage to you.

    Unyielding Legend
    Make condi rev great again!
    Say no to braindead high reward builds

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This requires a bit of history to explain:
    Back until the first major condition rework in 2014, most conditions would stack duration, only bleeding, i think stacked intensity. Also there was a cap of 25 on all conditions, like there is for boons.
    This meant that you could have a condi build character, and you'd do little to no damage because your stacks would get removed, or prevented from applying, by power built characters.
    My first actual thought out build for my Ranger was a condi shortbow build focused on applying bleeds through auto, the knife the elite tentacles and rune of the krait. It was really cool, and when i was soloing it was easily melting through champions.
    The problem was when i moved into dungeons... At the time i didn't have many characters built only the Ranger and a Guardian (which, at the time, i was running a tank build on), so that being my better DPS character i would take it often into dungeons. Only to see my bleed ticks replaced by thieves' or warriors' bleed ticks. To the point that i folded and switched to a power Ranger, having only went back to an approximation of my original build now with soulbeast.

    The problem with confusion, and the reverse with bleeding, is that the balance devs tend to "paint with a too broad of a brush"... That means that they generalize their changes and apply them somewhat blindly, and balance it later.
    That's why the "unique" aspect of bleeding is gone, in that it was the only damage condition that stacked, and now it's just another condition that stacks, especially more now since they reduced application to 1 stack to most conditions.

    It did take a while for the problems to crop up though, but PoF had a few more condi builds than HoT, also there's the second "minor" rework that reduced the stack application that kinda made things even more apparent.

    Of course Confusion is a bit of a outlier. It's broken, also because, imagine that, devs actually increased some of it's application when they were reducing other skills.
    I think that soon they should do a new condition rework, changing how conditions work mechanically so that each condition has it's own identity.
    In that regard confusion is kind of Ok already, but like a lot of people have already demonstrated in this post, it lacks counter-play. In fact that's a big issue with conditions. Counter-play for them is limited, and it's made worse with the addition of boon counter-play that can make everything worse.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭

    @BeLZedaR.4790 said:
    The only real issue is that even the skill cleansing the confusion will deal damage to you.

    Isnt they made all cleanses that actually cleanse confusion ,doesnt deal damage? Im too lazy to look on every single patchnote ,been a while . Feel free to tell results if you test it :D

    Of course!
    Scourge condi spam is forgiven because its not just spam condis but will corrupt your boons,sounds like way worse than mirage (do you really enjoy 30s weakness? I dont for example)
    Ye old confusion was way better ,bring back old illusion traits/confusion !

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Hiki.9310 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:
    I expect a lot of backlash from this post, but this is my opinion. Confusion is too strong, and should be brought in line to the same level as retaliation.

    The only backlash I'm going to give is that mesmer is the only class stacking confusion too much, so only their confusion application should be nerfed. The confusion application is fine on everybody else, so the condition shouldn't be nerfed directly.

    Who is to say there won't be another class/build next meta that will be stacking confusion just as high or higher? That's why i think classes should be rebalanced for confusion only stacking in duration for the future.

    I very much doubt another class will have the burst capability to stack 15+ stacks of confusion.
    I think it's time cleanses had their priority of cleanses changed. Since Anet is not going to change the nature of burst condition builds. Cleanses need to be changed to remove damaging conditions first and then remove non damaging conditions second.
    Too many times I have died and killed people because they remove weakness, vulnerable, and cripple while they have 10+ stacks of what ever damaging condition. That's a skill wasted that's supposed to help you survive and you will end up dying because the frequency of application for conditions is faster than the cooldowns on most classes for condi cleanse.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @BeLZedaR.4790 said:
    The only real issue is that even the skill cleansing the confusion will deal damage to you.

    Isnt they made all cleanses that actually cleanse confusion ,doesnt deal damage? Im too lazy to look on every single patchnote ,been a while . Feel free to tell results if you test it :D

    No, cleanses count as a skill unless it's something like a weapon swap or dodge cleanse. Using for example cleansing fire will hit you for a confusion tick before getting removed.

    Of course!
    Scourge condi spam is forgiven because its not just spam condis but will corrupt your boons,sounds like way worse than mirage (do you really enjoy 30s weakness? I dont for example)
    Ye old confusion was way better ,bring back old illusion traits/confusion !

    Funny thing. This is old confusion..
    This is launch confusion. The issue with this is that they changed confusion and never thought about the consequences of leaving mass stacking capabilities with the addition of expertise as a possible issue. It's very telling how little forethought the balance team has when making changes like this.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Scourge condi spam is forgiven because its not just spam condis but will corrupt your boons,sounds like way worse than mirage (do you really enjoy 30s weakness? I dont for example)

    Scourge condi spam is better because Necros are weak in mobility/disengage and active defenses, so they can be hard countered through multiple ways:

    *) Heavy firepower from range (lb Rangers, pistol Thief, rifle Thief, Hammer Rev, gs Mesmer...).
    *) Heavy cc (Holosmith, Warrior, stunchain Thief...).

    ...Also, if they are focused by the enemy team usually need support from Guardians, Eles or Druids, whereas Mesmers have the means to evade a fight and reset it at will.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    I know we have confusion as its used to be . Old - > previous what we had obsly?

    The issue with this is that they changed confusion and never thought about the consequences of leaving mass stacking capabilities with the addition of expertise as a possible issue

    Could describe any damaging condition rofl
    As for confu cleansing you and Belz are wrong , tested just now , if you remove exactly confusion , no damage taken as its been written in some patch

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    I know we have confusion as its used to be . Old - > previous what we had obsly?

    The issue with this is that they changed confusion and never thought about the consequences of leaving mass stacking capabilities with the addition of expertise as a possible issue

    Could describe any damaging condition rofl
    As for confu cleansing you and Belz are wrong , tested just now , if you remove exactly confusion , no damage taken as its been written in some patch

    Interesting. Last I tried I took damage though the skill used to cleanse was cleansing ire. But then I weapon swapped. So maybe that was my error and I never actually cleansed it correctly. Thanks for testing that though.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    I know we have confusion as its used to be . Old - > previous what we had obsly?

    The issue with this is that they changed confusion and never thought about the consequences of leaving mass stacking capabilities with the addition of expertise as a possible issue

    Could describe any damaging condition rofl
    As for confu cleansing you and Belz are wrong , tested just now , if you remove exactly confusion , no damage taken as its been written in some patch

    Interesting. Last I tried I took damage though the skill used to cleanse was cleansing ire. But then I weapon swapped. So maybe that was my error and I never actually cleansed it correctly. Thanks for testing that though.

    Its been written long time ago with confusion revert or abit later. Thing is -> purging flames is an attack/skill that first what it does burn your foes and then if allies been there, remove condition ,its doesnt say its remove 3 conditions from you as you use it .When you leave forge its remove condition -> removed confusion,ranger cleanses,thief signet,shadowstep ->tested on this. Cleansing ire remove condition after you hit ,your burst skill never intended to remove them ,something like that?:D

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    I know we have confusion as its used to be . Old - > previous what we had obsly?

    The issue with this is that they changed confusion and never thought about the consequences of leaving mass stacking capabilities with the addition of expertise as a possible issue

    Could describe any damaging condition rofl
    As for confu cleansing you and Belz are wrong , tested just now , if you remove exactly confusion , no damage taken as its been written in some patch

    Interesting. Last I tried I took damage though the skill used to cleanse was cleansing ire. But then I weapon swapped. So maybe that was my error and I never actually cleansed it correctly. Thanks for testing that though.

    Its been written long time ago with confusion revert or abit later. Thing is -> purging flames is an attack/skill that first what it does burn your foes and then if allies been there, remove condition ,its doesnt say its remove 3 conditions from you as you use it .When you leave forge its remove condition -> removed confusion,ranger cleanses,thief signet,shadowstep ->tested on this. Cleansing ire remove condition after you hit ,your burst skill never intended to remove them ,something like that?:D

    Oh good point! I honestly didn't think of it that way.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    Yet, confusion continues to be an issue. Hence, I've come up with a solution.

    Nerfing something into the ground isn't a solution, or balance. You're better off making a thread about cleanse priority than coming up with a terrible solution, if you wanna call it that, for confusion.

    Cleanse priority is situational.

    Not everyone will like the idea of making confusion stack in duration instead of intensity. Seems fair to me and keeps the function of the condition. And I did list two conditions which would be better for confusion than the way it is live:
    1) Confusion doesn't stack in intensity, affects all skills.
    2) Confusion stacks in intensity, doesn't affect auto attacks, heals, and cleanse skills.

    Seems fair to me.

    This would literally make condi mesmers of all stripes completely unviable.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    Yet, confusion continues to be an issue. Hence, I've come up with a solution.

    Nerfing something into the ground isn't a solution, or balance. You're better off making a thread about cleanse priority than coming up with a terrible solution, if you wanna call it that, for confusion.

    Cleanse priority is situational.

    Not everyone will like the idea of making confusion stack in duration instead of intensity. Seems fair to me and keeps the function of the condition. And I did list two conditions which would be better for confusion than the way it is live:
    1) Confusion doesn't stack in intensity, affects all skills.
    2) Confusion stacks in intensity, doesn't affect auto attacks, heals, and cleanse skills.

    Seems fair to me.

    This would literally make condi mesmers of all stripes completely unviable.

    I'm sure there will be other changes in the balance patch to keep it viable. Balance patches usually involve many changes that all work toward balance.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    Yet, confusion continues to be an issue. Hence, I've come up with a solution.

    Nerfing something into the ground isn't a solution, or balance. You're better off making a thread about cleanse priority than coming up with a terrible solution, if you wanna call it that, for confusion.

    Cleanse priority is situational.

    Not everyone will like the idea of making confusion stack in duration instead of intensity. Seems fair to me and keeps the function of the condition. And I did list two conditions which would be better for confusion than the way it is live:
    1) Confusion doesn't stack in intensity, affects all skills.
    2) Confusion stacks in intensity, doesn't affect auto attacks, heals, and cleanse skills.

    Seems fair to me.

    This would literally make condi mesmers of all stripes completely unviable.

    I'm sure there will be other changes in the balance patch to keep it viable. Balance patches usually involve many changes that all work toward balance.

    You'd have smiters boon mesmers primary damage output which impacts the F2, Jaunt, Blinding Dissipation and Ineptitude, Scepter in it's entirety and Axe 3. That's far beyond the scope of a balance patch. that would require a complete rework of the class.

    And confusion is one of the most fair damaging conditions in the game. It does pretty much no damage as long as you don't attack into it. The mechanics of it are fine. My biggest problem with confusion is loading it onto instant cast stuff like Jaunt.

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    Yet, confusion continues to be an issue. Hence, I've come up with a solution.

    Nerfing something into the ground isn't a solution, or balance. You're better off making a thread about cleanse priority than coming up with a terrible solution, if you wanna call it that, for confusion.

    Cleanse priority is situational.

    Not everyone will like the idea of making confusion stack in duration instead of intensity. Seems fair to me and keeps the function of the condition. And I did list two conditions which would be better for confusion than the way it is live:
    1) Confusion doesn't stack in intensity, affects all skills.
    2) Confusion stacks in intensity, doesn't affect auto attacks, heals, and cleanse skills.

    Seems fair to me.

    This would literally make condi mesmers of all stripes completely unviable.

    I'm sure there will be other changes in the balance patch to keep it viable. Balance patches usually involve many changes that all work toward balance.

    What makes you think they're going to change it in the first place? You just simply stated what you didn't want confusion to effect, and gave no reason why, then suggesting nerfs to it. Your intentions are pretty clear cut here. Like honestly, if you're killing yourself from autoattacking while having huge stacks on confusion on you, Then you might as well just stop while you're behind.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Hot Boy.7138 said:

    You can't wait out 15 stacks of confusion.

    When you see 15 stacks you feel need to spam all skills you see ready on your skill bar? xD
    Oh side note , mesmer confusion was removed from every shatter and put into f2 only . On top of that duraiton of confusion was heavily reduced ,like trait that prolonged confusion duration by 33%

    Yet, confusion continues to be an issue. Hence, I've come up with a solution.

    Nerfing something into the ground isn't a solution, or balance. You're better off making a thread about cleanse priority than coming up with a terrible solution, if you wanna call it that, for confusion.

    Cleanse priority is situational.

    Not everyone will like the idea of making confusion stack in duration instead of intensity. Seems fair to me and keeps the function of the condition. And I did list two conditions which would be better for confusion than the way it is live:
    1) Confusion doesn't stack in intensity, affects all skills.
    2) Confusion stacks in intensity, doesn't affect auto attacks, heals, and cleanse skills.

    Seems fair to me.

    This would literally make condi mesmers of all stripes completely unviable.

    I'm sure there will be other changes in the balance patch to keep it viable. Balance patches usually involve many changes that all work toward balance.

    You'd have smiters boon mesmers primary damage output which impacts the F2, Jaunt, Blinding Dissipation and Ineptitude, Scepter in it's entirety and Axe 3. That's far beyond the scope of a balance patch. that would require a complete rework of the class.

    And confusion is one of the most fair damaging conditions in the game. It does pretty much no damage as long as you don't attack into it. The mechanics of it are fine. My biggest problem with confusion is loading it onto instant cast stuff like Jaunt.

    Yeah, it would require a rework. I think it's necessary and could be done. The one consistent thing about MMORPGs is that they continue to change. Mesmers aren't the only class that has access to confusion, but it will impact mesmers the most.

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