The problem with Chronophantasma

Hey,for a long time I have been silent around here. Now I'd like to start a discussion about the probably most unhealthy trait in the game.

Before making you all go crazy about my weird perspective on this trait I'd like you all to know that I as a player totally enjoy Chronomancer as a dps spec and that I am always using this trait and as long as it does not get changed I will keep using it because it is an insanely cool concept and super powerful.

Alright now to make every mesmer tilt: I'd love to see chronophantasma nerfed to the ground.

"Now he's gone insane."Might be what some of you are thinking right now. I have thought about this for a long time now and I always come to the same conclusion. Chronophantasma is a trait that is beyond broken.So here are the reasons why chronophantasma is broken:First of all every trait that interacts with phantasm summons and destruction will be triggered twice. That means: 2 times quickness by Phantasmal Haste, 2 conditions removed by Sympathic Visage, 6 instead of 3 stacks might on Phantasmal Force, and so on. You get it. This single trait makes all these traits twice as stron as they already were. So whenever one of these traits gets touched the devs must also keep in mind that Chronophantasma will make these traits twice as strong.The second and far simpler reason is that phantasms will always need to be balanced as if they were twice as strong. Every phantasm skill has its damage increased by 100% when used with Chronophantasma. For our phantasm dps build that means 14/20 skills we use at the start of the rotation are twice as strong than without the trait.If you don't see a problem I will tell you: It is one.What do you think is the reason we don't have a deception cooldown trait on mirage? Because it is much harder to balance a skillset that has altering cooldowns.The same happened to any phantasm related skill/trait when chronophantasma got changed with the mesmer rework.

Any new elite specialization that is supposed to be a power dps spec will need a way to surpass the damage increase set by chronophantasma which is really hard if you keep in mind that phantasms are the main source of power damage on mesmers at the moment.

I really hope that @Robert Gee.9246 will see this post. As it is a topic of importance when looking to the future of mesmer elite specializations. Nerfing the damage by chronophantasma in PvP was one step in the right direction.

Please if you agree or disagree with me, share your opinion! I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

ADD: Ofc a nerf to chronophantasma would require yet another shift in the mesmers' skills damage share.

Seems straight forward to me: Phantasms that are summoned normally benefit from traits resummoned phantasms are marked with chronophantasma so they either gain less trait benefits or they get none and only deal dmg.

This way you can still do phantasm chains to deal good dmg but you wont be able to stack so many boons and buffs on you.

Sounds reasonable for me ti be honest because it is utterly overtuned atm but not because of its resummon and dmg part.

I stopped playing chrono because chronoplasma. It's quite retardedly overpowered - but the problem is all our balance is stored in forcing this super clunky playstyle.It's idd broken on many level, from 100% dmg increse(lol wtf?), to doubling down on effects etc etc. And it forces us balanced around having it, and it's clunky for playstyle, can be easily dodged pvp also and half damage in pvp (so we have sucky pvp balance). Also turns power into damage over time delivery.

It's just no limits to how clunky this is, i can't even start to open my mind to those feelings right now. Let's just say i shelved chrono and have been living happily ever after as mirage and not at all wanting to think about it again. Actually i quit gw2 for a bit - when i came back shelved chrono and regeared for mirage before setting 1 foot in the world feelssogoodman.

Forcing my head to think about it a bit anyway.. so you wanna aoe? there on the first spawn the target dies - oh sorry second round won't spawn now to aoe there as you wanted to aoe. Etc. Argh so annoying. Also on-row talents are so weak in comparison, forget about getting that slow for example.

It's in my opinion very bad design, maybe something that could only be seen after it's become a real thing but now it is clearly apparent. The reason i've avoided posting about it is because it's so op that it requires rebalancing of all our phantasms if removed/hardnerfed - fearing they'd just nerf it and leave chrono weakling mode.

@Me Games Ma.8426 said:Hey,for a long time I have been silent around here. Now I'd like to start a discussion about the probably most unhealthy trait in the game.

Here's the thing, you described what Chronophantasma does, but you didn't say what makes it broken. Yes, it doubles the damage of phantasms, well so does Infinite Horizon, which doubles the damage of ambush skills, and in some cases quadruples their utility (eg. Mirage Thrust becomes 4 dazes instead of 1)

Mesmer has always been about scaling their effectiveness based on number of illusions. Can Distortion never be balanced because it ranges from 1s to 4s based on how many clones you have? Can staff never be balanced because it spawns 2 phantasms and thus doubles the utility of the same traits you mentioned?

Have you people seen how they balance other classes if they are trying to give them a Power DPS build? If they remove Chronophantasma they won't rebalance Mesmer damage and they won't touch the traits like Phantasm Haste, over the next few patches after they remove it they will just throw a bunch of % damage increase traits in random places until there enough where you can get 30k dps with some simplistic rotation.

Not only is the "OHMAGAWD 100% damage increase" Not really out of line with how they go for damage increases in this game Chronophantasma is a much more interesting and better designed DPS trait then most of the rest of the classes.

And as @RabbitUp.8294 said, it goes perfectly inline with how Mesmer has always been about scaling their effectiveness based on number of illusions.

@"Me Games Ma.8426" said:Hey,for a long time I have been silent around here. Now I'd like to start a discussion about the probably most unhealthy trait in the game.

Before making you all go crazy about my weird perspective on this trait I'd like you all to know that I as a player totally enjoy Chronomancer as a dps spec and that I am always using this trait and as long as it does not get changed I will keep using it because it is an insanely cool concept and super powerful.

Alright now to make every mesmer tilt: I'd love to see chronophantasma nerfed to the ground.

"Now he's gone insane."Might be what some of you are thinking right now. I have thought about this for a long time now and I always come to the same conclusion. Chronophantasma is a trait that is beyond broken.So here are the reasons why chronophantasma is broken:First of all every trait that interacts with phantasm summons and destruction will be triggered twice. That means: 2 times quickness by Phantasmal Haste, 2 conditions removed by Sympathic Visage, 6 instead of 3 stacks might on Phantasmal Force, and so on. You get it. This single trait makes all these traits twice as stron as they already were. So whenever one of these traits gets touched the devs must also keep in mind that Chronophantasma will make these traits twice as strong.The second and far simpler reason is that phantasms will always need to be balanced as if they were twice as strong. Every phantasm skill has its damage increased by 100% when used with Chronophantasma. For our phantasm dps build that means 14/20 skills we use at the start of the rotation are twice as strong than without the trait.If you don't see a problem I will tell you: It is one.What do you think is the reason we don't have a deception cooldown trait on mirage? Because it is much harder to balance a skillset that has altering cooldowns.The same happened to any phantasm related skill/trait when chronophantasma got changed with the mesmer rework.

Any new elite specialization that is supposed to be a power dps spec will need a way to surpass the damage increase set by chronophantasma which is really hard if you keep in mind that phantasms are the main source of power damage on mesmers at the moment.

I really hope that @Robert Gee.9246 will see this post. As it is a topic of importance when looking to the future of mesmer elite specializations. Nerfing the damage by chronophantasma in PvP was one step in the right direction.

Please if you agree or disagree with me, share your opinion! I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

ADD: Ofc a nerf to chronophantasma would require yet another shift in the mesmers' skills damage share.

I agree with you completely OP. I've been thinking this same thing for a long time. I'm glad you made this post. As you said, this one trait is too powerful. I also run this trait, because it' s really dumb not to. I really love playing power mesmer, but I really don't enjoy this playstyle of nonstop spamming of phantasms.

@"Me Games Ma.8426" said:Hey,for a long time I have been silent around here. Now I'd like to start a discussion about the probably most unhealthy trait in the game.

Before making you all go crazy about my weird perspective on this trait I'd like you all to know that I as a player totally enjoy Chronomancer as a dps spec and that I am always using this trait and as long as it does not get changed I will keep using it because it is an insanely cool concept and super powerful.

Alright now to make every mesmer tilt: I'd love to see chronophantasma nerfed to the ground.

"Now he's gone insane."Might be what some of you are thinking right now. I have thought about this for a long time now and I always come to the same conclusion. Chronophantasma is a trait that is beyond broken.So here are the reasons why chronophantasma is broken:First of all every trait that interacts with phantasm summons and destruction will be triggered twice. That means: 2 times quickness by Phantasmal Haste, 2 conditions removed by Sympathic Visage, 6 instead of 3 stacks might on Phantasmal Force, and so on. You get it. This single trait makes all these traits twice as stron as they already were. So whenever one of these traits gets touched the devs must also keep in mind that Chronophantasma will make these traits twice as strong.The second and far simpler reason is that phantasms will always need to be balanced as if they were twice as strong. Every phantasm skill has its damage increased by 100% when used with Chronophantasma. For our phantasm dps build that means 14/20 skills we use at the start of the rotation are twice as strong than without the trait.

And Power Chrono still isn't the best DPS build so far. I understand why one would think that, but in instances of PvE I would expect if our phantasms were overperfoming to the point of say putting Chrono at the top of the DPS charts it would be adjusted, but it currently isn't. That's probably why people see the trait as a non issue.

I can see where an issue would or could be brought up with traits proccing twice. But some of the traits you mentioned are only useful to specific builds and specific instances. For example phantasmal haste. It's a second of quickness..by the time most phantasms are done with what ever they are doing. The quickness is gone. So barely any issue what that as the next one action you take will be the only major thing effected. This is assuming you haven't spammed every phantasm you have secondly, A chrono specced to provide quickness will be overlapping and doing most of the work in that boon department for you.Condition clearing- Again unless you are spamming a utility bar full of phantasms I don't see how that is an issue, AND, PvE mobs don't output enough conditions for that even to be an issue.

If you don't see a problem I will tell you: It is one.What do you think is the reason we don't have a deception cooldown trait on mirage? Because it is much harder to balance a skillset that has altering cooldowns.The same happened to any phantasm related skill/trait when chronophantasma got changed with the mesmer rework.

We also don't have a wells cooldown trait. Or an illusions cooldown trait anymore. But that's probably because all of those are in a good spot comparatively?Any new elite specialization that is supposed to be a power dps spec will need a way to surpass the damage increase set by chronophantasma which is really hard if you keep in mind that phantasms are the main source of power damage on mesmers at the moment.

On a specific build in specific instances. For example The condi build mirage has does not rely on phantasms rather most of your damage is coming from ambushes.Saying that the new E-spec is going to be phantasm driven as a matter of fact is ....interesting and raises the question.....how do you know?.

I really hope that @Robert Gee.9246 will see this post. As it is a topic of importance when looking to the future of mesmer elite specializations. Nerfing the damage by chronophantasma in PvP was one step in the right direction.

Please if you agree or disagree with me, share your opinion! I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

ADD: Ofc a nerf to chronophantasma would require yet another shift in the mesmers' skills damage share.

I'm hoping that the next E-spec has a pistol..Oh and ...Please never build an espec around dodging again. It was a bad idea with Daredevil, and it is still a bad idea with mirage. Because as Pyro has said. You build yourself mechanically into a corner.

First of all I am glad that there are different opinions about this topic and that we can have a constructive discussion about the game. Thabks for keeping it civil! I still believe in my opinion. Allow me try to argue against those that disagree with me:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Here's the thing, you described what Chronophantasma does, but you didn't say what makes it broken. Yes, it doubles the damage of phantasms, well so does Infinite Horizon, which doubles the damage of ambush skills, and in some cases quadruples their utility (eg. Mirage Thrust becomes 4 dazes instead of 1)

Mesmer has always been about scaling their effectiveness based on number of illusions. Can Distortion never be balanced because it ranges from 1s to 4s based on how many clones you have? [...]

The main difference between Chdonophantasma and Infinite Horizon is that IH has a requirement to work how it does. Chronophantasma is just there standing out alone even without any requirement all phantasms will have their damage increased by 100%. No matter how many clones there are. And think about the fact that on mirage builds you choose not to shatter because you want to keep up the clones for the ambushes. Such a downside doesn't exist with chronophantasma.

@"Levetty.1279" said:Have you people seen how they balance other classes if they are trying to give them a Power DPS build? If they remove Chronophantasma they won't rebalance Mesmer damage and they won't touch the traits like Phantasm Haste, over the next few patches after they remove it they will just throw a bunch of % damage increase traits in random places until there enough where you can get 30k dps with some simplistic rotation.

Not only is the "OHMAGAWD 100% damage increase" Not really out of line with how they go for damage increases in this game Chronophantasma is a much more interesting and better designed DPS trait then most of the rest of the classes.

Yes I have seen balance in this game for almost six years now. I am aware of the fact that in many cases they balance slowly and buff/nerf too hard.I wonder what part about chrono dps gameplay would change if chronophantasma was to be ereased. Why would the rotation change? Phantasms would still be damage skills that can be double/quadruple cast by using SotEther and CS. Why do you think it resulted in a "simplistic rotation"?I am afraid that any kind of next power elite spec would be designed that way because of chronophantasma outperforming them otherwise.I do agree with you that chronophantasma is one of the most interesting traits though! (I never said it wasn't!)

@Solori.6025 said:

Any new elite specialization that is supposed to be a power dps spec will need a way to surpass the damage increase set by chronophantasma which is really hard if you keep in mind that

phantasms are the main source of power damage on mesmers at the moment.

On a specific build in specific instances. For example The condi build mirage has does not rely on phantasms rather most of your damage is coming from ambushes.Saying that the new E-spec is going to be phantasm driven as a matter of fact is ....interesting and raises the question.....how do you know?.

First of all you even highlighted the part where you misunderstood me. I intentionally said that I was talking about power damage yet you talk about Mirage's condition build.Secondly: I have never said that the next elite spec was about phantasms. I simply said that phantasms are such a core mechanic in power builds that they almost can't design a spec without phantasms in mind. So the last part doesn't really make sense.

@Solori.6025 said:And Power Chrono still isn't the best DPS build so far. I understand why one would think that, but in instances of PvE I would expect if our phantasms were overperfoming to the point of say putting Chrono at the top of the DPS charts it would be adjusted, but it currently isn't. That's probably why people see the trait as a non issue.

Yeah this is pretty much the reason I am adressing it. Balance will always be hard if you have to balance the same skill with 100% and 200% damage. Chronophantasma is so insanely strong that players won't be running anything else. So when the devs do balance they have to balance the phantasms as if they were 100% stronger. Not that they are but the option to make them be as strong exists and is picked up by most players on chrono atm.

@Solori.6025 said:I'm hoping that the next E-spec has a pistol [...]

That is exactly what i am hoping for: A pistol spec. Now that we already manipulate time (chrono) and vision (mirage) I'd love to see a sound manipulating spec using pistol. The only issue I see is that we already have a pistol trait which makes it incredibly hard to design a new elite spec with pistol (I do have a concept that I worked out a couple of weeks ago that used pistol. My solution was that the old trait would to be chsnged to only work for the off hand version).

(If there are 'n' or 'b' instead of spaces between words I'm sorry about that. I'm typing on my phone :/ )

@Me Games Ma.8426 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

Any new elite specialization that is supposed to be a power dps spec will need a way to surpass the damage increase set by chronophantasma which is really hard if you keep in mind that

phantasms are the main source of power damage on mesmers at the moment.

On a specific build in specific instances. For example The condi build mirage has does not rely on phantasms rather most of your damage is coming from ambushes.Saying that the new E-spec is going to be phantasm driven as a matter of fact is ....interesting and raises the question.....how do you know?.

True ,condi mirage is a bad example. Especially in the context of Power dps for chrono.For power my only other experience would be in WvW or PvP since those are my two main places of residence in the game. And since the recent chrono nerf. Phantasms as a pure damaging effect has been largely a non-issue.I don't agree though that phantasms are a big mechanic that they can't design around something else. I say this because we have an entirely new E-spec now that doesn't wholly rely on phantasms. So it is entirely possible we may get a new pure power dps spec that doesn't use clones or phantasms at all, honestly anything is up for grabs at this point.

And Power Chrono still isn't the best DPS build so far. I understand why one would think that, but in instances of PvE I would expect if our phantasms were overperfoming to the point of say putting Chrono at the top of the DPS charts it would be adjusted, but it currently isn't. That's probably why people see the trait as a non issue.

If they were to nerf Chronophantasma they will probably just unsplit it from spvp. Where phantasms do 50% of the damage instead of 100%. When I first looked at the trait in WvW I was wondering where you got 100% from lol.But yea,most likely we will see a numerical change, not a mechanic change...I feel like I have said this before...not to you but to someone else that wanted Chronophantasma redesigned and they just did numerical changes.......(mild deja vu ignore me)

@Solori.6025 said:I'm hoping that the next E-spec has a pistol [...]

OOOHHH That actually" sounds" awesome ( WOOT SOUND PUN)

Pistols.. what a fucking plague this mechanic crap best left for huntards.Mesmer.Magic.Go away pistols, leave those for more crude beings.

"The two who are one, Issa and Lys, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past.For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road."— Orrian History Scrolls, The Six, Volume 4—Lyssa: Goddess of Beauty and Illusion

"The road may be long, but you can walk it together.There may be storms, but you can shelter one another.The cold may come in winter, but you can shelter each other's warmth.Each companion to the other: two souls, united.May no weapon sever the bond that holds your hands together,And may no word sever the love that keeps your hearts as one."

— Sacred text of Lyssa. Goddess of love

@Crackmonster.2790 said:Pistols.. what a kitten plague this mechanic crap best left for huntards.Mesmer.Magic.Go away pistols, leave those for more crude beings.Actually, even though i don't really want it - thematically a healing specc is in order if you look into Lyssa. Much rather that than pistols lol so lowly crude tools.

I'll post the concept in another thread soon. There we can discuss how pistol would fit. Let me just say that there are two pistols in the game Lys and Ilya :^)

@Me Games Ma.8426 said:The main difference between Chdonophantasma and Infinite Horizon is that IH has a requirement to work how it does. Chronophantasma is just there standing out alone even without any requirement all phantasms will have their damage increased by 100%. No matter how many clones there are. And think about the fact that on mirage builds you choose not to shatter because you want to keep up the clones for the ambushes. Such a downside doesn't exist with chronophantasma.

Chronophantasma does have a requirement, too. You need to put phantasms in your skill bar, otherwise it will only affect exactly 2 skills, 1 per weapon set. Suddenly a grandmaster trait that affects 2 weapon skills doesn't sound so broken, does it?

At the same time, every single Mirage build has access to ambush attacks. Requiring clones is not that big of a requirement that it can excuse double or more damage and quadruple utility out of every ambush attack, when we have traits like Illusionary Reversion that require exactly 3 clones and you need to shatter them and the reward is getting 1 clone.

@Me Games Ma.8426 said:If you don't see a problem I will tell you: It is one.What do you think is the reason we don't have a deception cooldown trait on mirage? Because it is much harder to balance a skillset that has altering cooldowns.The same happened to any phantasm related skill/trait when chronophantasma got changed with the mesmer rework.

But most skill types do have a cd reduction trait, though. And not only for base skill types, for example both of Guardian's elite specs get a cd reduction trait for traps and mantras respectively.

And you say that about chrono, the alacrity spec, who can take Improved Alacrity and enjoy 33% cd reduction on every single skill in organised pve.

It is not insane. That' a basic balance method that always works: "Free" casts of a skill won't be affected by gear and passive effects that modify the original.

That should apply to all 'free casts' like the lesser versions triggered by traits, or skills triggered by sigils and runes.

btw chrono in pvp is shit now, but lets nerf chronophantasma even more cause why not?

btw chrono's power dps is good but isnt top tier, why not lets nerf it more?

oh hey, the only thing chronophantasma does so well is applying tons of self quickness and might ehich are only relevant in solo encounters and open world and no condi cleanse isnt relevant in pve, and its excessive in pvp anyways.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Chronophantasma does have a requirement, too. You need to put phantasms in your skill bar, otherwise it will only affect exactly 2 skills, 1 per weapon set. Suddenly a grandmaster trait that affects 2 weapon skills doesn't sound so broken, does it?

The thing is that they cannot balance the game on regarding less effective builds they always need to look at the most effective min max build not on chrono dps without the utility phantasms. Additionally can you call it anrequirement if you'd take the skills anyways?When talking about mirage I was mostly refering to the trade off that you won't shatter. Such a trade off doesn't exist with chronophantasma.

At the same time, every single Mirage build has access to ambush attacks. Requiring clones is not that big of a requirement that it can excuse double or more damage and quadruple utility out of every ambush attack, when we have traits like Illusionary Reversion that require exactly 3 clones and you need to shatter them and the reward is getting 1 clone.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:But most skill types do have a cd reduction trait, though. And not only for base skill types, for example both of Guardian's elite specs get a cd reduction trait for traps and mantras respectively.And you say that about chrono, the alacrity spec, who can take Improved Alacrity and enjoy 33% cd reduction on every single skill in organised pve.

True but this does not negate the statement which I was trying to make you understand: Two versions of a skill need to be balanced around the stronger version. Always.Besides: Think about this, Mirage was made by Robert Gee so were Deadeye and Holo. None of these have cooldown reduction traits for their utility skills.

Let my try this again:The issue I see with chronophantasma is that the potential impact of this trait is so huge that even if they wanted to buff any phantasm they'd always have to think about the impact it could have when used on a chrono. That is my whole point. I am not saying that chrono is op and requires a nerf I'm saying that Chronophantasma is making balancing phantasms for core mesmer or mirage or any possible elite spec in the future almost impossible since they always have to keep Chrono in mind. And as a result of that because it would be better for the game I'd like to see chronophantasma go in order to make it easier to balance the class as a whole thing.

Chrono will definetly cause other specs to have less power coming from phantasms which are our main power danage source.

Not exactly true, while Phantasms do make up a large part of a Power Chrono's damage, you can actually build a Danger Time+Lost Time build with similar dps and better sustained dps at the cost of burst damage from Phantasms.

Even base mesmer a build that doesn't have Chronophantasma can actually perform pretty okay by itself, you can benchmark it on 28k, which isn't that bad.

In short you're overstating a problem that doesn't exist, as Phantasms can handle themselves well even without Chronophantasma, imo none of them needs any buffing and if they do, i'm pretty sure it wouldn't suddenly make Chrono op, unless they make a retarded buff.

Chrono's strength comes from its ability to buff allies and provide fuckton of utility which overshadows other classes. Phantasms are the least of the profession's problems in terms of balance.

And in the future if we do get a new off hand for the new elite spec it couldn't be used alongside Chronomancer anyways.

Chronophantasma is a good designed trait. I don't want buffs to uninteresting traits like Lost Time or Danger Time to compensate the nerfs to Chronophantasma.

@Me Games Ma.8426 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Chronophantasma does have a requirement, too. You need to put phantasms in your skill bar, otherwise it will only affect exactly 2 skills, 1 per weapon set. Suddenly a grandmaster trait that affects 2 weapon skills doesn't sound so broken, does it?

You keep saying that it cannot be balanced, but the trait is balanced right now. Chrono is good dps, but not top. Base mesmer is only 5k lower. Even mirage, which is a condi spec, has successful power builds.

So where's the balancing problem?

And you mentioned before that the trait doesn't leave room for a future power spec. Even that is not true, because chrono is forced to wear a bunch of assassin gear. So, that future elite spec only needs to have a +Precision trait, and that would already be a very significant dps increase. Throw some generic +10% damage trait in there, too, and you have your replacement to Chronophantasma.

When talking about mirage I was mostly refering to the trade off that you won't shatter. Such a trade off doesn't exist with chronophantasma.

Mirage can shatter and summon back all clones nearly instantly. In fact, F4 is used on cooldown to proc Desert Distortion. So, that leaves us with 3 other shatters. F1 is power-based, so it's bad for condi mirage to begin with. F3 is CC with no damage, and Mirage can and should use it if the group is struggling with breakbars. So, it's only F2 that actually would make sense for mirage to use but isn't, and even that you can use when you have no clones up (at the start, after F4, etc).

And it's not like power chrono can freely shatter either. All their clones should be reserved for F1 or F5, so, they can only use F2, F3 and F4 when no clones are active, otherwise they are losing dps.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Me Games Ma.8426 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:Chronophantasma does have a requirement, too. You need to put phantasms in your skill bar, otherwise it will only affect exactly 2 skills, 1 per weapon set. Suddenly a grandmaster trait that affects 2 weapon skills doesn't sound so broken, does it?

When talking about mirage I was mostly refering to the trade off that you won't shatter. Such a trade off doesn't exist with chronophantasma.

Traited F1 ammunition shatter is good to stack torment on enemies though and is used on mirage. Mirage condi builds spam ambushes until the clone generators are all off CD or endurancr is down and then shatter for more endurance and dmg. Resummon clones and repeat the whole process. Mirage is fairly active gameplay and chrono is too with the ohantasm chain combos.Chrono has fantastic burst and decent sustained DPS. Only thibg that makes chrono unblanaced is the fact that they can generate so many boons at once. Two very inportant ones for DPS which is quickness and alacrity can be generated on mass and all others can be shared arround with SoI. Thats what is most broken on chrono and thats why i said that chronophantasms should not have bonusses on their second summon. This would tune down the overtuned boon generation without gutting the burst dmg.

@RabbitUp.8294Alright, I'm glad that finally there are arguments that I can not counter. I opened this thread with the intention to have a civil discussion and see where it leads. It lead to the point where I still see a few problems with the trait but I'm happy to tell you that you convinced me that at the moment there is no reason to look at chronophantasma regarding PvE.I will think about this for some time.

Regarding the topic of balancing two versions of a skill I don't believe that my mind has changed. It will always be a challenge to balance a skill that can be twice as strong on a certain trait setup.

I'll keep my eye on the situation. Thanks for replying to my topic.

28-34k, oh that small missing 6k dps. Let's forget about that - clearly chronoplasma not op it only adds gigantic amounts of dmg by itself far out of the other's reach even if they can give 30% crit.They could start by making that 30% crit available to phantoms as well, then we'd start talking some semblance of choice or balance among the picks.Problem also has been ignored by thread is this: Since chronoplasma op broken, they had to nerf it in pvp(burst potential) --> specc imbalance. And it is clunky as hell mechanically - the only thing is has is numbers tied to shitty mechanics. But people pick classes for numbers in most cases.So we are stuck with this clunky stuff coz the number defenders are out there crusading against making the class play well from fear of losing the numbers. This is why you shouldn't always listen to players.Yea yea, there are also fair arguments in thread the fairest of them all is this: I love the clunky playstyle to me it is fun. Great, excellent. Good for you - i am not trying to take your choice away however, just don't make it the de facto overpowered forced clunky playstyle to stay competitive in pve. I couldn't care less if the choice is there for you if you love this playstyle, i have zero interest in taking it away from you.

So yea, make the 30% crit available to phantasms/illusions as well, and take double-effects away from the second spawn. If that ruins something on class, address the base phantasm to give more. It's not really that hard. And possibly make it 60% in both pve and pvp, boost base phantasm damage by 15% - to avoid fracturing class even more.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Chrono has fantastic burst and decent sustained DPS. Only thibg that makes chrono unblanaced is the fact that they can generate so many boons at once. Two very inportant ones for DPS which is quickness and alacrity can be generated on mass and all others can be shared arround with SoI. Thats what is most broken on chrono and thats why i said that chronophantasms should not have bonusses on their second summon. This would tune down the overtuned boon generation without gutting the burst dmg.Not only are you ignoring the point you made yourself which is SoI is what is sharing these boons out not Chronophantasma, Chronophantasma doesn't generate Alacrity and support Chrono takes Seize the moment.

@Crackmonster.2790 said:28-34k, oh that small missing 6k dps. Let's forget about that - clearly chronoplasma not op it only adds gigantic amounts of dmg by itself far out of the other's reach even if they can give 30% crit.

You're also forgetting that I mentioned that a Power Chrono with Lost Time along with Danger Time traited can do similar dps compared to a Chronophantasma Power Chrono.

They could start by making that 30% crit available to phantoms as well, then we'd start talking some semblance of choice or balance among the picks.

Alse, Danger Time isn't on the same tier as Chronophantasma. They could be used together.

Problem also has been ignored by thread is this: Since chronoplasma op broken, they had to nerf it in pvp(burst potential) --> specc imbalance. And it is clunky as hell mechanically - the only thing is has is numbers tied to kitten mechanics. But people pick classes for numbers in most cases.

They were OP because Phantasms had higher than normal Weapon Strength. And even higher than Ascended weapons. (2.5-3k avg weapon strength) compared to lvl 78 exotics PvP has (only 900-1k avg) of course they're gonna hit harder than the competition.

So we are stuck with this clunky stuff coz the number defenders are out there crusading against making the class play well from fear of losing the numbers. This is why you shouldn't always listen to players.

Chronophantasma isn't clunky at all. If there's any clunkiness it comes from phantasms themselves as they're ai spawns that get blocked by terrain.

Sure we care about the numbers, but it's interaction with Illusion summoning traits, utilities (SoE, becomes 1050 healing with CP) makes it one of the most interesting and synergistic trait available to Chrono. Chrono is all about multiplying your spells, and that along with Continuum Split and Chronophantasma makes it thematically sound.

Yea yea, there are also fair arguments in thread the fairest of them all is this: I love the clunky playstyle to me it is fun. Great, excellent. Good for you - i am not trying to take your choice away however, just don't make it the de facto overpowered forced clunky playstyle to stay competitive in pve. I couldn't care less if the choice is there for you if you love this playstyle, i have zero interest in taking it away from you.

Eh sure, maybe you'd prefer the pre reworked mesmer. maybe you would prefer anything else. I don't care too. I don't like things to be taken away without any sense though, maybe I'm just biased, but currently Chronophantasma is the least of Chrono's problem. The real problem is that it brings unparalleled support and utility, through wells, boons, aegis sharing, reflects, cc, portal skips etc. A party needs something and a Mesmer can just swap utilities to cover for the party's weaknesses.

@Levetty.1279 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Chrono has fantastic burst and decent sustained DPS. Only thibg that makes chrono unblanaced is the fact that they can generate so many boons at once. Two very inportant ones for DPS which is quickness and alacrity can be generated on mass and all others can be shared arround with SoI. Thats what is most broken on chrono and thats why i said that chronophantasms should not have bonusses on their second summon. This would tune down the overtuned boon generation without gutting the burst dmg.Not only are you ignoring the point you made yourself which is SoI is what is sharing these boons out not Chronophantasma, Chronophantasma doesn't generate Alacrity and support Chrono takes Seize the moment.

Yeah but phantasms generate the boons on yourself on mass. SoI is a topic on itself and is the nain reason why chrono is boon meta everywhere.Seize the moment is a fair point but there is still solo boon chrono.

Personally SoI needs to be addressed first of all other things vut CP is still a very hood but very strong trait that doubles up on everything phantadms do.

@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@Crackmonster.2790 said:

They could start by making that 30% crit available to phantoms as well, then we'd start talking some semblance of choice or balance among the picks.

This is indeed a good point. Maybe swap slow traits around.

I gotta be honest, i plain and simply dislike the enormous clunkyness of chronoplasma which is so overtuned that there is no realistic choice unless you wanna run around with a gimmick build just because you can't stand using the best. Ruins the flow of the class to me fully.