Racial Skills Reworked into Racial Specialisations (Core) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Racial Skills Reworked into Racial Specialisations (Core)

Introduction

OK so the concept here is very simple. We all know that Racial Skills exist, well I assume we do, there's a small chance we may not, after all there are some people who only play sPvP and let’s be honest while we may appreciate the flavour added by racial skills, the sad truth is they are not amazingly useful, so there is that other small chance that you may also simply have forgotten they exist.

The core game does want some love, some core professions are after all struggling to find their place for one reason or another, by following through with even some of the concepts here we open up a beautiful new doorway. Both for Anet and for us as players.

What I want to present here is an idea for people to discuss, even go a bit wild with, after all it can be done and if done well can also be integrated into sPvP, given it would be something that everyone can have access to and therefor become something that can be balanced (please keep your possibly much desired issues with current balance to one side for a while because while very valid I wouldn't want it to remove from the main discussion here).

The Concept

Well, to try and be straight up about it its simply this. Let’s take our racial skills as they currently exist and remove them, instead implementing them as a Specialisation. This ultimately means that the CORE game would have a specialisation for every race that’s playable and may take a form like below:

  • Charr – Specialisation: Dirty Fighting/Tactics
  • Norn - Specialisation: Spirits of the Wild
  • Human - Specialisation: Dervish
  • Sylvari - Specialisation: Dragon Magic
  • Asura - Specialisation: Magitech/Golemancy

How would this work?

Well we have 5 races, but we also have 9 Professions, to ask this question makes a lot of sense! I personally wouldn’t expect ArenaNet to be able to make 5 specialisations and balance them to work well over all 9 Professions.

What I would instead suggest is this, take these 5 Specialisations and REALLY make them special, tune them differently so that they are different for each profession! But that’s insane I hear you say it will never happen, well yes you are correct that’s a big workload to throw onto a company but bear with me here, it adds a lot more to the future of the game than you may think at first glance, for a start it gives ArenaNet more incentive to add a new playable race, as they would come with their own specialisations for each profession.

Moving on however you may not fully follow what I’m saying here, so I will give a loose example.

I make a Human Elementalist, I choose the Spirits of the Wild Specialisation to accompany my Elementalist Profession. Now my Elementalist is going to take their Elementalist Skills and combine them with Norn teachings they have learned by doing something related to the Norn (To unlock the specialisation) and they are going to perhaps be able to become a Giant Fiery Bear that’s gives them access to a new set of high damage skills, perhaps a Burning Charge through the target that does KB leaves a trail of fire and gives a nice smack.
Equally I also make a Charr Necromancer, I also opt to go for the Spirits of the Wild Specialisation. However this isn’t an Elamentalist, no Fiery Bear form for this character, instead I have something attached to Raven? Perhaps a Plague Raven that screeches loudly and slashes heavily and viscously with its talons enhancing the effects with necromantic way to create a heavy condition based form.

So there is my very simple example, not heavily thought through but good enough to get the idea that they differ, creating a huge problem in one sense given 5 x 9 means we end up needing 45 Specialisation lines and skills and traits to fit them.

There are huge problems with this suggestion why make it?

Well yes, I am well aware there are many issues this idea puts forward, not so much as a lore issue as there is no reason an Asura cannot learn Bear Form, nor a reason a Charr cannot use Avatar of Dwayna.

To cover a few more realistic issues here that I see, they would largely be balance and workload, though in my opinion this would open enough doors to be worth it in the end.
As for why make the suggestion, well my counter is why not? The actual concept is amazing and something I feel we could all get behind and hopefully help create something amazing with. So all I ask is that you try and be constructive give suggestions and criticise the idea as you see fit. I have after all left this as a concept, there is no reason whatsoever that someone reading this could not suggest a better approach, adjustment or method of implementation. It is after all some fun we could all have together ^^.

<1

Comments

  • I am a creative type of person and i really really like this idea. Possibly a tweak here and there, but that is actually it. It really sounds like fun and it can actually help as well to bring back some older stuff that also should be appreciated aside from Trahearne.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    if every race can use them then they kind of loose most of their purpose.

    also you can't brush aside lore problems with "lol, why not"

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • @derd.6413 said:
    if every race can use them then they kind of loose most of their purpose.

    also you can't brush aside lore problems with "lol, why not"

    The lore reasons isn't brushed aside with why not, its more so there actually isn't a lore reason you can't have this. The why not is more so addressing the "Why not discuss this idea", sorry if I put that part forward badly ^^

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2018

    I'm all for the players race being more of a thing in Gw2.

    Racial skills are something i've always found a nice addition to the game and make my character feel at least a tiny bit more defined from the other races of the same proffession.
    Their more or less uselessness has always been something of a bitter realization and it really has bugged me for years that they've been so irrelevant.
    When I make a new character my choice of race isn't just based on story.. it's also based on the theme of the build I am aiming to make.
    Racial skill being so garbage compared to class skills makes certain build themes not worth playing.

    I'd personally love to make Norn characters with builds based around their shapeshifting race skills but why would anyone bother doing so when just taking racial skills over class skills significantly cripples your build half the time.. who's going to sacrifice an elite skill of all things to further sacrifice all their weapon and utility skills so they can rage smash as a bear and do less damage than they did in their normal form.

    In the past i've suggested that race skills be taken out of the Utility skill section and instead be reworked into special F6-7-8 & 9 skills that the player has access too right from the start of the game.
    I still believe this could work really well without crippling any builds specially if the skills had long cooldowns and acted as minor support or gimmick skills.
    For example a Norn could turn into a bear or wolf etc (depending on their creation choices) whenever they liked and it would be purely cosmetic.. they would still have the same stats and use their normal weapons and animations.. It would essentially be exactly the same thing as using a combat tonic like the Kodan.
    Likewise human prayer to Dwayna would give a passive regen buff that would give you minor health gain regardless of healing power and would have a huge cooldown so that it couldn't be spammed or abused.

    I don't really care how racial skills are reworked.. traits.. F skills whatever I just really want them to make my choice of race feel more important.
    I want my Charr Necro to feel different from my human ones in more than just the physical appearance of the character.

    Race skills exist in the game.. lets make them more than just a pointless gimmick and make our choice in race more than just based on cosmetic appearance and early game story.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In order to keep things balanced, I feel like these need to be accessible by any race. Ie, go to the pale tree to learn the sylvari racial of your choice.

    Add this as a general trait line across all classes in addition to the other three.

    Win!

  • @derd.6413 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    if every race can use them then they kind of loose most of their purpose.

    also you can't brush aside lore problems with "lol, why not"

    The lore reasons isn't brushed aside with why not, its more so there actually isn't a lore reason you can't have this. The why not is more so addressing the "Why not discuss this idea", sorry if I put that part forward badly ^^

    one of the purposes of racial skills is to add flavor to the races but it's kinda shot in the leg because of the whole "don't want race to affect combat" and racial skills are combat skills. your suggestion is to take the "add flavor" aspect and take it out behind a tool shed with an anti-tank rifle (as not only do you remove race specific abilities but you also take race specific themes and give them to everybody solidifying that race is just a cosmetic option).

    Your point is very fair, however I would easily say that the bit of flavor is lost when its not very viable to use said skills anyway. The reason I say everyone has access to it because ultimately GW2 is all about accessibility and you couldn't expect something on this level to be unique to each race for that reason alone.

    As for the themes themselves, there are more and more emerging characters in the world that embrace others cultures somewhat, the Charr and the Norn have respected each other for a good while, as early as the early time-frame of GW2. All it really means gameplay wise is you won't find many NPC's embracing another races style within core Tyria.
    Each Race still has its core ideals at its center however Lion's Arch, I strongly remember reading how Rytlock was surprised at Charr and Humans being so social on his first visit to Lion's Arch, the Pact and many factions exist that are multicultural and would pull from these pools of knowledge to their benefit, OK a Charr may be reluctant to use Avatar of Balthazar, but if it was life and death I think they'd give it a go.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    Introduction

    OK so the concept here is very simple. We all know that Racial Skills exist, well I assume we do, there's a small chance we may not, after all there are some people who only play sPvP and let’s be honest while we may appreciate the flavour added by racial skills, the sad truth is they are not amazingly useful, so there is that other small chance that you may also simply have forgotten they exist.

    The core game does want some love, some core professions are after all struggling to find their place for one reason or another, by following through with even some of the concepts here we open up a beautiful new doorway. Both for Anet and for us as players.

    What I want to present here is an idea for people to discuss, even go a bit wild with, after all it can be done and if done well can also be integrated into sPvP, given it would be something that everyone can have access to and therefor become something that can be balanced (please keep your possibly much desired issues with current balance to one side for a while because while very valid I wouldn't want it to remove from the main discussion here).

    The Concept

    Well, to try and be straight up about it its simply this. Let’s take our racial skills as they currently exist and remove them, instead implementing them as a Specialisation. This ultimately means that the CORE game would have a specialisation for every race that’s playable and may take a form like below:

    • Charr – Specialisation: Dirty Fighting/Tactics
    • Norn - Specialisation: Spirits of the Wild
    • Human - Specialisation: Dervish
    • Sylvari - Specialisation: Dragon Magic
    • Asura - Specialisation: Magitech/Golemancy

    How would this work?

    Well we have 5 races, but we also have 9 Professions, to ask this question makes a lot of sense! I personally wouldn’t expect ArenaNet to be able to make 5 specialisations and balance them to work well over all 9 Professions.

    What I would instead suggest is this, take these 5 Specialisations and REALLY make them special, tune them differently so that they are different for each profession! But that’s insane I hear you say it will never happen, well yes you are correct that’s a big workload to throw onto a company but bear with me here, it adds a lot more to the future of the game than you may think at first glance, for a start it gives ArenaNet more incentive to add a new playable race, as they would come with their own specialisations for each profession.

    Moving on however you may not fully follow what I’m saying here, so I will give a loose example.

    I make a Human Elementalist, I choose the Spirits of the Wild Specialisation to accompany my Elementalist Profession. Now my Elementalist is going to take their Elementalist Skills and combine them with Norn teachings they have learned by doing something related to the Norn (To unlock the specialisation) and they are going to perhaps be able to become a Giant Fiery Bear that’s gives them access to a new set of high damage skills, perhaps a Burning Charge through the target that does KB leaves a trail of fire and gives a nice smack.
    Equally I also make a Charr Necromancer, I also opt to go for the Spirits of the Wild Specialisation. However this isn’t an Elamentalist, no Fiery Bear form for this character, instead I have something attached to Raven? Perhaps a Plague Raven that screeches loudly and slashes heavily and viscously with its talons enhancing the effects with necromantic way to create a heavy condition based form.

    So there is my very simple example, not heavily thought through but good enough to get the idea that they differ, creating a huge problem in one sense given 5 x 9 means we end up needing 45 Specialisation lines and skills and traits to fit them.

    There are huge problems with this suggestion why make it?

    Well yes, I am well aware there are many issues this idea puts forward, not so much as a lore issue as there is no reason an Asura cannot learn Bear Form, nor a reason a Charr cannot use Avatar of Dwayna.

    To cover a few more realistic issues here that I see, they would largely be balance and workload, though in my opinion this would open enough doors to be worth it in the end.
    As for why make the suggestion, well my counter is why not? The actual concept is amazing and something I feel we could all get behind and hopefully help create something amazing with. So all I ask is that you try and be constructive give suggestions and criticise the idea as you see fit. I have after all left this as a concept, there is no reason whatsoever that someone reading this could not suggest a better approach, adjustment or method of implementation. It is after all some fun we could all have together ^^.

    I was going to make a similar suggestion soon. The major difference I would suggest to lower the work load would be to change only a hand full of traits for each profession. As well as for skills that are supposed to be a part of the race's identity, like the norn shapeshifts, if another race were to use that same skill mechanically it would function the exact same but aesthetically it would just be a spirit aura as opposed to the transformation the norn would get.

    Skills I'd also suggest go through some major changes as well. I think that each specialization should provide a total of 12 skills each with different skill types, such as Turret, minion, concentration or what have you. 4 Elites, 2 heals, and 6 utility. This could give you a sense of the race's identity and differences through skills. I'd also rework the transformations entirely. Norn Transformations I feel should not change your weapons skills but your utility and give you a temporary buff to your stats for the duration. Avatar of Melandru Should be changed to make you a fairly competent healer all be it with rare use due to its high cool down.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    if every race can use them then they kind of loose most of their purpose.

    also you can't brush aside lore problems with "lol, why not"

    The lore reasons isn't brushed aside with why not, its more so there actually isn't a lore reason you can't have this. The why not is more so addressing the "Why not discuss this idea", sorry if I put that part forward badly ^^

    one of the purposes of racial skills is to add flavor to the races but it's kinda shot in the leg because of the whole "don't want race to affect combat" and racial skills are combat skills. your suggestion is to take the "add flavor" aspect and take it out behind a tool shed with an anti-tank rifle (as not only do you remove race specific abilities but you also take race specific themes and give them to everybody solidifying that race is just a cosmetic option).

    Your point is very fair, however I would easily say that the bit of flavor is lost when its not very viable to use said skills anyway. The reason I say everyone has access to it because ultimately GW2 is all about accessibility and you couldn't expect something on this level to be unique to each race for that reason alone.

    As for the themes themselves, there are more and more emerging characters in the world that embrace others cultures somewhat, the Charr and the Norn have respected each other for a good while, as early as the early time-frame of GW2. All it really means gameplay wise is you won't find many NPC's embracing another races style within core Tyria.
    Each Race still has its core ideals at its center however Lion's Arch, I strongly remember reading how Rytlock was surprised at Charr and Humans being so social on his first visit to Lion's Arch, the Pact and many factions exist that are multicultural and would pull from these pools of knowledge to their benefit, OK a Charr may be reluctant to use Avatar of Balthazar, but if it was life and death I think they'd give it a go.

    i don't disagree that racials should be reworked i'm disagreeing with how you wish to accomplish it

    also there's a difference between being accepting of other cultures and becoming one homogenized culture

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • @derd.6413 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    if every race can use them then they kind of loose most of their purpose.

    also you can't brush aside lore problems with "lol, why not"

    The lore reasons isn't brushed aside with why not, its more so there actually isn't a lore reason you can't have this. The why not is more so addressing the "Why not discuss this idea", sorry if I put that part forward badly ^^

    one of the purposes of racial skills is to add flavor to the races but it's kinda shot in the leg because of the whole "don't want race to affect combat" and racial skills are combat skills. your suggestion is to take the "add flavor" aspect and take it out behind a tool shed with an anti-tank rifle (as not only do you remove race specific abilities but you also take race specific themes and give them to everybody solidifying that race is just a cosmetic option).

    Your point is very fair, however I would easily say that the bit of flavor is lost when its not very viable to use said skills anyway. The reason I say everyone has access to it because ultimately GW2 is all about accessibility and you couldn't expect something on this level to be unique to each race for that reason alone.

    As for the themes themselves, there are more and more emerging characters in the world that embrace others cultures somewhat, the Charr and the Norn have respected each other for a good while, as early as the early time-frame of GW2. All it really means gameplay wise is you won't find many NPC's embracing another races style within core Tyria.
    Each Race still has its core ideals at its center however Lion's Arch, I strongly remember reading how Rytlock was surprised at Charr and Humans being so social on his first visit to Lion's Arch, the Pact and many factions exist that are multicultural and would pull from these pools of knowledge to their benefit, OK a Charr may be reluctant to use Avatar of Balthazar, but if it was life and death I think they'd give it a go.

    i don't disagree that racials should be reworked i'm disagreeing with how you wish to accomplish it

    also there's a difference between being accepting of other cultures and becoming one homogenized culture

    No problem I misunderstood ^^ and certainly you are correct about that second part :D

  • I was going to make a similar suggestion soon. The major difference I would suggest to lower the work load would be to change only a hand full of traits for each profession. As well as for skills that are supposed to be a part of the race's identity, like the norn shapeshifts, if another race were to use that same skill mechanically it would function the exact same but aesthetically it would just be a spirit aura as opposed to the transformation the norn would get.

    Skills I'd also suggest go through some major changes as well. I think that each specialization should provide a total of 12 skills each with different skill types, such as Turret, minion, concentration or what have you. 4 Elites, 2 heals, and 6 utility. This could give you a sense of the race's identity and differences through skills. I'd also rework the transformations entirely. Norn Transformations I feel should not change your weapons skills but your utility and give you a temporary buff to your stats for the duration. Avatar of Melandru Should be changed to make you a fairly competent healer all be it with rare use due to its high cool down.

    I really like the idea regarding the Aura's thing, I'd say it woudl have to vary between each one. Reminds me of how in GW1 when your human and use bear form, you get the skills, but don't fully "Become the Bear!". Glad to hear other people been thinking about it, I've been sitting on suggesting this for over a year now ^^. (Aside from in a way too large post I made about a year ago I think xD)

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    if every race can use them then they kind of loose most of their purpose.

    also you can't brush aside lore problems with "lol, why not"

    The lore reasons isn't brushed aside with why not, its more so there actually isn't a lore reason you can't have this. The why not is more so addressing the "Why not discuss this idea", sorry if I put that part forward badly ^^

    one of the purposes of racial skills is to add flavor to the races but it's kinda shot in the leg because of the whole "don't want race to affect combat" and racial skills are combat skills. your suggestion is to take the "add flavor" aspect and take it out behind a tool shed with an anti-tank rifle (as not only do you remove race specific abilities but you also take race specific themes and give them to everybody solidifying that race is just a cosmetic option).

    Your point is very fair, however I would easily say that the bit of flavor is lost when its not very viable to use said skills anyway. The reason I say everyone has access to it because ultimately GW2 is all about accessibility and you couldn't expect something on this level to be unique to each race for that reason alone.

    As for the themes themselves, there are more and more emerging characters in the world that embrace others cultures somewhat, the Charr and the Norn have respected each other for a good while, as early as the early time-frame of GW2. All it really means gameplay wise is you won't find many NPC's embracing another races style within core Tyria.
    Each Race still has its core ideals at its center however Lion's Arch, I strongly remember reading how Rytlock was surprised at Charr and Humans being so social on his first visit to Lion's Arch, the Pact and many factions exist that are multicultural and would pull from these pools of knowledge to their benefit, OK a Charr may be reluctant to use Avatar of Balthazar, but if it was life and death I think they'd give it a go.

    i don't disagree that racials should be reworked i'm disagreeing with how you wish to accomplish it

    also there's a difference between being accepting of other cultures and becoming one homogenized culture

    No problem I misunderstood ^^ and certainly you are correct about that second part : D

    from a lore perspective you are creating one homogenized culture (which is what i have an issue with)

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • from a lore perspective you are creating one homogenized culture (which is what i have an issue with)

    It's bad explaining on my part there ^^, I wouldn't say that's true in terms of what I want to happen mechanically, what a well traveled adventurer does and knows is going to vary heavily from the average Tyrian be they solider, official or otherwise.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    from a lore perspective you are creating one homogenized culture (which is what i have an issue with)

    It's bad explaining on my part there ^^, I wouldn't say that's true in terms of what I want to happen mechanically, what a well traveled adventurer does and knows is going to vary heavily from the average Tyrian be they solider, official or otherwise.

    it kinda is, the other cultures would just survive because of npcs. leaving with a race's culture only existing in npcs while player characters would all belong to the homogenized culture.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For open PvE only would be fantastic.
    Rest id say no, just to keep the balance in check.

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

    Take the useless Norn shapeshifting ones for example. Remove all combat abilities(or turn them into Costume Brawl abilities) and let you shift in and out at will (instead of the pathetic duration and absurdly long cooldown).

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bad idea, it would open a can of worms. Then youd end with like you are useless if you arent a sylvarri engineer or an asura elementalist and so on. When racials have been worthwhile, Anet have been quick to nerf them to the ground.

    Imho, they should just be removed. Heck, Revenant cant even use any!

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Bad idea, it would open a can of worms. Then youd end with like you are useless if you arent a sylvarri engineer or an asura elementalist and so on. When racials have been worthwhile, Anet have been quick to nerf them to the ground.

    Imho, they should just be removed. Heck, Revenant cant even use any!

    This is what people said about break bars.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

    have the skills work like tonics or things you'd find in the toy category of the gem store

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2018

    I'd maybe, maaybe like the idea if that had been the choice at launch.
    But here, it's gonna wreck characters that now need to be changed to optimize etc.
    It would kitten people off.

    Also

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

  • @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    I'd maybe, maaybe like the idea if that had been the choice at launch.
    But here, it's gonna wreck characters that now need to be changed to optimize etc.
    It would kitten people off.

    Also

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    That is essentially why you have to make each specialization accessible to everyone, as for people who get miffed, people get miffed every patch with the slightest change anyway if their build doesn't meet the "Established Meta" and they need to change a piece of gear. I had a little break a while back, came back Condi rangers dropped out of meta in favor for Power, all it means to me is I have to wait a while until I get some more gear for that character which doens't bother me at all.

    Whats more on top of this racial skills not being racial anymore, while I have issues myself with the idea I've suggested, there is still a difference between the races. Understanding a fighting style and culture doesn't invalidate that existing culture. On top of that All races in the game CURRENTLY Fight exactly the SAME way anyway, they all run at the same speed, hit with the same amount of force (the reason Asura are able to hit as hard as Charr and Norn being both funny and horrid at the same time), the only MAJOR difference between them is visual and the position of the camera really oh and your racial armour is mutually exclusive too.

    I'd much rather risk seeing an Asura become the bear or get an aura so its in an equivalent than NEVER see anyone use Bear Form at all, if you see racial skills these days its largely Hounds of Balthazar (because some people just love the cool factor :D) or MAYBE the Sylvari root given immobilise is useful in the odd location. You don't see Charrzooka's, Norn Forms at all really and thats simply because they are not useful to the point they may as well not be there. Ultimately this is a choice of lesser evils and I think more varied interesting game-play is worth the addition of such a thing, heck if done well and balanced well enough they can potentially become alternatives, meaning you would see things like Bear form and G.O.L.E.M Battle-suits actually in the frey. On top of it you get more incentive to add new races to the game as playable. Right now, there is very little, largely due to the fact that adding a new race on the part of Anet means having to rework all existing skins to work for whatever new model they apply, and voice act it etc. All so players can look different and that's about it.

    If GW2 was not about accessibility and Race had many effects on your ability to play i.e. movement speed, armour choices, stat allocation etc. I certainly would not be offering the idea of having them be accessible across all races, the game however doesn’t work this way and as such it has to be part of the deal for an idea alike this :P.

  • Gotenks Jr.3752Gotenks Jr.3752 Member ✭✭
    edited August 13, 2018

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Bad idea, it would open a can of worms. Then youd end with like you are useless if you arent a sylvarri engineer or an asura elementalist and so on. When racials have been worthwhile, Anet have been quick to nerf them to the ground.

    Imho, they should just be removed. Heck, Revenant cant even use any!

    lol you saying that just puts the fun idea of if this were to be applicable in some way, Revenants getting something more special tied to something no longer in the Current world, like access to echo's of Owl (I wish Owl form had stayed it would look so beautiful and silly)

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2018

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    That is essentially why you have to make each specialization accessible to everyone, as for people who get miffed, people get miffed every patch with the slightest change anyway if their build doesn't meet the "Established Meta" and they need to change a piece of gear. I had a little break a while back, came back Condi rangers dropped out of meta in favor for Power, all it means to me is I have to wait a while until I get some more gear for that character which doens't bother me at all.

    Having high impact racials would screw people over way more than having to get some new gear.

    Example:
    Before you left the "meta" was condition sylvari ranger, because some sylvari racials make them perform better on condi ranger.
    When you came back the "meta" had shifted to power charr ranger, because some charr racials make them perform better on power ranger.
    In order to be "meta" getting a set for power ranger is not enough. You also have to create a new character, possibly playing a race you do not enjoy, and level it up to 80.
    If you don't have any free character slots you would also need to buy one of those for 800 gems, or delete a character. Maybe your sylvari ranger also had some upgrades like extra bag slots that this new charr ranger will not have?

    Disclaimer: Sylvari and Charr were used as examples, in no way, shape, or form am I saying that these races perform the best on said classes right now or would in the future.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And that is why racial spells is a bad idea. Breakbars is not an useful example as its not tied to a race.

  • @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    That is essentially why you have to make each specialization accessible to everyone, as for people who get miffed, people get miffed every patch with the slightest change anyway if their build doesn't meet the "Established Meta" and they need to change a piece of gear. I had a little break a while back, came back Condi rangers dropped out of meta in favor for Power, all it means to me is I have to wait a while until I get some more gear for that character which doens't bother me at all.

    Having high impact racials would screw people over way more than having to get some new gear.

    Example:
    Before you left the "meta" was condition sylvari ranger, because some sylvari racials make them perform better on condi ranger.
    When you came back the "meta" had shifted to power charr ranger, because some charr racials make them perform better on power ranger.
    In order to be "meta" getting a set for power ranger is not enough. You also have to create a new character, possibly playing a race you do not enjoy, and level it up to 80.
    If you don't have any free character slots you would also need to buy one of those for 800 gems, or delete a character. Maybe your sylvari ranger also had some upgrades like extra bag slots that this new charr ranger will not have?

    Disclaimer: Sylvari and Charr were used as examples, in no way, shape, or form am I saying that these races perform the best on said classes right now or would in the future.

    Which is why I said you make all races able to have the specialisations, you seem to be missing that. That way you can have a Charr Ranger which can be specialised to fight using the "Sylvari" specialisation.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2018

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

    have the skills work like tonics or things you'd find in the toy category of the gem store

    This sounds like you're sucking all the fun out of the game to replace it with something superficial. And having to use a skill slot for it makes it even worse than just a tonic.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    And that is why racial spells is a bad idea. Breakbars is not an useful example as its not tied to a race.

    Except Break bars were the right call, which Me and a few others mentioned some years ago which was rejected by people like yourself in the forums who couldn't see past what was currently in the system. Its a fantastic example because it shows the same readiness to dismiss an idea outright without real thought.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be honest, the idea seemed cool until I read the "how would this work" part. Each race should just have access to it's race spec and it shouldn't be difficult to make specs that work fine with all core professions unlike what the op seem to think.

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    That is essentially why you have to make each specialization accessible to everyone, as for people who get miffed, people get miffed every patch with the slightest change anyway if their build doesn't meet the "Established Meta" and they need to change a piece of gear. I had a little break a while back, came back Condi rangers dropped out of meta in favor for Power, all it means to me is I have to wait a while until I get some more gear for that character which doens't bother me at all.

    Having high impact racials would screw people over way more than having to get some new gear.

    Example:
    Before you left the "meta" was condition sylvari ranger, because some sylvari racials make them perform better on condi ranger.
    When you came back the "meta" had shifted to power charr ranger, because some charr racials make them perform better on power ranger.
    In order to be "meta" getting a set for power ranger is not enough. You also have to create a new character, possibly playing a race you do not enjoy, and level it up to 80.
    If you don't have any free character slots you would also need to buy one of those for 800 gems, or delete a character. Maybe your sylvari ranger also had some upgrades like extra bag slots that this new charr ranger will not have?

    Disclaimer: Sylvari and Charr were used as examples, in no way, shape, or form am I saying that these races perform the best on said classes right now or would in the future.

    Which is why I said you make all races able to have the specialisations, you seem to be missing that. That way you can have a Charr Ranger which can be specialised to fight using the "Sylvari" specialisation.

    I'm not missing that point, I just think that's not up for discussion because the racial skills are tied to the lore of Tyrias different races.

    Example:
    A human cannot use the norn spirit forms because the spirits of the wild are the norn's spiritual guides. They have always been around to guide the norn race and when a norn take the form of a werebeast spirit they become closer to the spirit whose form they took.
    A norn cannot use the blessings from the human gods because the human gods brought the humans into Tyria, not the nords. The humans are these gods favored people and they thus give them their blessing.

  • Moira Shalaar.5620Moira Shalaar.5620 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2018

    This topic comes up about every year or so, and I think it does because there is so much persistent interest in this idea. It certainly is near and dear to me and I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. Here is my own proposal, which I believe is both different in most ways than what has been presented already, and still retains the racial distinctions (hopefully) without introducing too much power creep.

    The basic idea is that all benefits from the mastery only apply to a race while in their native racial zone. (Maguuma: Asura/ Sylvari; Kryta: Human; Ascalon: Charr; Shiverpeak Mountains: Norn). Bonuses versus racial enemies only work in native zone. Asura: Inquest; Sylvari: Nightmare Court; Human: Outlaw; Norn: Icebrood) Mastery bonuses do not have effect in instanced content or outside the native zone of the character's race.

    MASTERY:
    Well Traveled - 1MP - Unlock Map entry Waypoints in racial zones and reduce the cost of using waypoints that both originate and end within that zone.

    Local Guide - 1 MP - speed boost 10 in racial zone. This boost stacks with other speed boosts (c.f. new aquatic infusions) from boons and traits. This boost is halved while mounted.

    Foe Fighter - 2 MP - 10% Bonus Damage versus hereditary enemies while in racial zone, and 10% damage reduction to damage taken from hereditary enemies while in racial zone. These bonuses do not stack with bonuses from sigils and potions. (this allows others to gain comparable effect if they want)

    Local Fighter - 2 MP - Gain access to Racial skills. These skills use F6 (for healing) through F10 (for Elite). These racial skills only show up while in racial zone, and are fixed numbers not effected by boons, traits, primary/secondary ability scores, etc. Utility skills have a 120 second cool down. Elite and healing skills have a 180 second cool down, and cool downs cannot be reset or reduced by any mechanics (c.f. something like mistlock singularities, and no, these should not be available in fractals either). I would actually be in favor of reducing the number of skills here to only 1 healing, 1 utility and 1 elite if that would help balance power creep.

    The names are supremely unimportant, just something to hang the ideas on. By limiting the bonuses to racial zones, my thought was to give the feeling of people performing a little better in places they know really well, kind of a home team advantage idea. By using the F Skills, this would also allow revenants to take advantage of them without messing up the unique profession mechanic. By limiting to open world and non-instanced, these cannot impact challenging group content (i.e. dungeons) or expansion areas.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    And that is why racial spells is a bad idea. Breakbars is not an useful example as its not tied to a race.

    Except Break bars were the right call, which Me and a few others mentioned some years ago which was rejected by people like yourself in the forums who couldn't see past what was currently in the system. Its a fantastic example because it shows the same readiness to dismiss an idea outright without real thought.

    That's arguable since breakbar is one of the numerous things that grab the ankle of the necromancer in PvE. A necromancer would be more effective if the breakbar was replaced by stability since anet seem hellbent to make boon corruption is goto tool. Same goes for a lot of soft conditions that can simply be brushed off thanks to breakbar and make professions that rely on them useless.

    The breakbar sure is a good mechanism but it is also something can be seen as having a negative impact on general balance.

  • @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    That is essentially why you have to make each specialization accessible to everyone, as for people who get miffed, people get miffed every patch with the slightest change anyway if their build doesn't meet the "Established Meta" and they need to change a piece of gear. I had a little break a while back, came back Condi rangers dropped out of meta in favor for Power, all it means to me is I have to wait a while until I get some more gear for that character which doens't bother me at all.

    Having high impact racials would screw people over way more than having to get some new gear.

    Example:
    Before you left the "meta" was condition sylvari ranger, because some sylvari racials make them perform better on condi ranger.
    When you came back the "meta" had shifted to power charr ranger, because some charr racials make them perform better on power ranger.
    In order to be "meta" getting a set for power ranger is not enough. You also have to create a new character, possibly playing a race you do not enjoy, and level it up to 80.
    If you don't have any free character slots you would also need to buy one of those for 800 gems, or delete a character. Maybe your sylvari ranger also had some upgrades like extra bag slots that this new charr ranger will not have?

    Disclaimer: Sylvari and Charr were used as examples, in no way, shape, or form am I saying that these races perform the best on said classes right now or would in the future.

    Which is why I said you make all races able to have the specialisations, you seem to be missing that. That way you can have a Charr Ranger which can be specialised to fight using the "Sylvari" specialisation.

    I'm not missing that point, I just think that's not up for discussion because the racial skills are tied to the lore of Tyrias different races.

    Example:
    A human cannot use the norn spirit forms because the spirits of the wild are the norn's spiritual guides. They have always been around to guide the norn race and when a norn take the form of a werebeast spirit they become closer to the spirit whose form they took.
    A norn cannot use the blessings from the human gods because the human gods brought the humans into Tyria, not the nords. The humans are these gods favored people and they thus give them their blessing.

    Well they can we learn as Human in GW1 how to channel the blessings of Bear Raven and Wolf, equally if I recall correctly the Norn view the Human Gods as "other spirits of the wild" seeing Balthazar as the Spirit of War for example, you can even use Avatar of Balthazar in your personal Story if you go down certain routes, albeit by a different means to the method employed by Dervishes.

    The thing is as with all cultures they change over time, so faiths move around and change as do the cultures around them. I remember a long time hearing a Dev say on Stream "This is GW2 not GW1", which is indeed a correct statement, however it doesn't change the fact its the same Universe, equally it doesn't change the fact that Bear may opt to bless a non-norn or a Human God answer the prayers of a non-human.
    OK the aesthetic may change, which is an idea I like, however it is still possible even within Lore. You may equally argue that the blessing is weaker, however for functionalities sake we would have it the be the same for balance.

    I know my lore isn't perfect or up to date, however I believe what I am saying is correct.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    And that is why racial spells is a bad idea. Breakbars is not an useful example as its not tied to a race.

    Except Break bars were the right call, which Me and a few others mentioned some years ago which was rejected by people like yourself in the forums who couldn't see past what was currently in the system. Its a fantastic example because it shows the same readiness to dismiss an idea outright without real thought.

    That's arguable since breakbar is one of the numerous things that grab the ankle of the necromancer in PvE. A necromancer would be more effective if the breakbar was replaced by stability since anet seem hellbent to make boon corruption is goto tool. Same goes for a lot of soft conditions that can simply be brushed off thanks to breakbar and make professions that rely on them useless.

    The breakbar sure is a good mechanism but it is also something can be seen as having a negative impact on general balance.

    Except the stability wouldn't help necromancer since a Chronomancer can just strip it by auto attacking. Why the breakbar is frustrating to necromancers is because of balance around the necromancer, not a flaw with the breakbar itself. Personally, I feel Fear and taunt should do heavy damage to a break bar as opposed to the weak degen that is only slightly stronger than chill. But that's a topic for another day.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What if rather than calling them "Racial specializations" we call them "Cultural specializations". The distinction would give Arena net the chance to allow all players to unlock each of them on one character and use their cultural skills. One thing I don't agree with the OP is that the Human Specialization should be Dervish focused. But rather I'd prefer to see a Divinity's Reach specialization that uses the human culture as a basis for the skills. And this could also have more room for Anet to grow for Future expansions. Lets say this was added, all Core race cultural specializations were added into the game. Well now we can get Amnoon specialization(Or Elonian), or later Canthan specialization. Perhaps we could get a Kodan Specialization. It doesn't have to end with just the core races, it can continue with new expansions.

  • Interesting idea, but not feasible. This just exponentially increases the balancing effort needed from ANet which isn’t going to happen. They already stated that they don’t want race to determine how you make your character (ie, humans give you the most dps, norn if you want to tank, etc). By making each a different specialization accessible to each race, it’s at that point not even a racial thing anymore, it’s just more unneeded effort especially since it’s, as you stated, 45 unique specialization that need to be unique and balanced.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

    have the skills work like tonics or things you'd find in the toy category of the gem store

    This sounds like you're sucking all the fun out of the game to replace it with something superficial. And having to use a skill slot for it makes it even worse than just a tonic.

    it's a bare bones suggestion but one i believe has potential since "doesn't affect combat" is a minor limitation and i wouldn't call everything non-combat related superficial

    also a ui change wil probably be necessary no matter what you do given the revenant unless all of them get's turned into passive abilities

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Gotenks Jr.3752Gotenks Jr.3752 Member ✭✭
    edited August 13, 2018

    @Lily.1935 said:
    What if rather than calling them "Racial specializations" we call them "Cultural specializations". The distinction would give Arena net the chance to allow all players to unlock each of them on one character and use their cultural skills. One thing I don't agree with the OP is that the Human Specialization should be Dervish focused. But rather I'd prefer to see a Divinity's Reach specialization that uses the human culture as a basis for the skills. And this could also have more room for Anet to grow for Future expansions. Lets say this was added, all Core race cultural specializations were added into the game. Well now we can get Amnoon specialization(Or Elonian), or later Canthan specialization. Perhaps we could get a Kodan Specialization. It doesn't have to end with just the core races, it can continue with new expansions.

    I have no objection to these suggestions at all they sound really cool, my original post I mostly wanted to get the concept across for discussion and give an idea on how i thought it may work ^^.

    Edit: I forgot to include but wanted to add, I largely used Dervish as an example, as it was the first Human thing that came to my mind, they are more placeholder than anything else in terms of what I called then.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

    have the skills work like tonics or things you'd find in the toy category of the gem store

    This sounds like you're sucking all the fun out of the game to replace it with something superficial. And having to use a skill slot for it makes it even worse than just a tonic.

    it's a bare bones suggestion but one i believe has potential since "doesn't affect combat" is a minor limitation and i wouldn't call everything non-combat related superficial

    also a ui change wil probably be necessary no matter what you do given the revenant unless all of them get's turned into passive abilities

    I'd really like all the new skills be accessible to revenant as well.. They desperately need better customization and them being allowed to use potentially 10 different cultural/racial skills sounds like a build tester's dream to me. You point it out as a bad thing, I just see fun.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    What if rather than calling them "Racial specializations" we call them "Cultural specializations". The distinction would give Arena net the chance to allow all players to unlock each of them on one character and use their cultural skills. One thing I don't agree with the OP is that the Human Specialization should be Dervish focused. But rather I'd prefer to see a Divinity's Reach specialization that uses the human culture as a basis for the skills. And this could also have more room for Anet to grow for Future expansions. Lets say this was added, all Core race cultural specializations were added into the game. Well now we can get Amnoon specialization(Or Elonian), or later Canthan specialization. Perhaps we could get a Kodan Specialization. It doesn't have to end with just the core races, it can continue with new expansions.

    I have no objection to these suggestions at all they sound really cool, my original post I mostly wanted to get the concept across for discussion and give an idea on how i thought it may work ^^.

    Edit: I forgot to include but wanted to add, I largely used Dervish as an example, as it was the first Human thing that came to my mind, they are more placeholder than anything else in terms of what I called then.

    Not a problem. I think that could be a part of an Elonian Specialization along with some Paragon skills. Oh, like a couple of shouts and prayers. Would prayers fall under the catagory of concentration or meditation? Hmm. I've been trying to answer that one myself for an elite spec I'm working on as my own fan project.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

    have the skills work like tonics or things you'd find in the toy category of the gem store

    This sounds like you're sucking all the fun out of the game to replace it with something superficial. And having to use a skill slot for it makes it even worse than just a tonic.

    it's a bare bones suggestion but one i believe has potential since "doesn't affect combat" is a minor limitation and i wouldn't call everything non-combat related superficial

    also a ui change wil probably be necessary no matter what you do given the revenant unless all of them get's turned into passive abilities

    I'd really like all the new skills be accessible to revenant as well.. They desperately need better customization and them being allowed to use potentially 10 different cultural/racial skills sounds like a build tester's dream to me. You point it out as a bad thing, I just see fun.

    I don't see it as a bad thing but if you want to misconstrue half my arguments and ignore the rest thats fine too

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • @Lily.1935 said:

    @Gotenks Jr.3752 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    What if rather than calling them "Racial specializations" we call them "Cultural specializations". The distinction would give Arena net the chance to allow all players to unlock each of them on one character and use their cultural skills. One thing I don't agree with the OP is that the Human Specialization should be Dervish focused. But rather I'd prefer to see a Divinity's Reach specialization that uses the human culture as a basis for the skills. And this could also have more room for Anet to grow for Future expansions. Lets say this was added, all Core race cultural specializations were added into the game. Well now we can get Amnoon specialization(Or Elonian), or later Canthan specialization. Perhaps we could get a Kodan Specialization. It doesn't have to end with just the core races, it can continue with new expansions.

    I have no objection to these suggestions at all they sound really cool, my original post I mostly wanted to get the concept across for discussion and give an idea on how i thought it may work ^^.

    Edit: I forgot to include but wanted to add, I largely used Dervish as an example, as it was the first Human thing that came to my mind, they are more placeholder than anything else in terms of what I called then.

    Not a problem. I think that could be a part of an Elonian Specialization along with some Paragon skills. Oh, like a couple of shouts and prayers. Would prayers fall under the catagory of concentration or meditation? Hmm. I've been trying to answer that one myself for an elite spec I'm working on as my own fan project.

    It really depends how far they would want to go with it, remember Paragon had chants and Echo's too, I don't think they would be easy to implement but it is something to consider as to what theme/ style it may add for players to work with.

    Just popping into your concept you did give me other fun reminders, such as the return of Dwarven Brawling / Battle Stance, equally Revenant could be where it truly shines should it offer legends from the cultures the Revenant chooses to use. While Sylvari do already have Ventari they do have other Legends in their culture, it really depends of the depth you'd want to go into when it comes to them. I would however say you'd need to think of a nice one for HoT too given Amnoon is technically Path of Fire., I suppose it would be Exalted or Hylek based

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I could see if maybe it was (i) tied to a set of expansion masteries, and (i) was implemented with a fourth trait line that only worked in story and open world PvE. And was only one, general purpose line for each race -- so 5, rather than 45.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

    have the skills work like tonics or things you'd find in the toy category of the gem store

    This sounds like you're sucking all the fun out of the game to replace it with something superficial. And having to use a skill slot for it makes it even worse than just a tonic.

    it's a bare bones suggestion but one i believe has potential since "doesn't affect combat" is a minor limitation and i wouldn't call everything non-combat related superficial

    also a ui change wil probably be necessary no matter what you do given the revenant unless all of them get's turned into passive abilities

    I'd really like all the new skills be accessible to revenant as well.. They desperately need better customization and them being allowed to use potentially 10 different cultural/racial skills sounds like a build tester's dream to me. You point it out as a bad thing, I just see fun.

    I don't see it as a bad thing but if you want to misconstrue half my arguments and ignore the rest thats fine too

    I'd suggest trying to explain it better than, because if I'm getting something wrong, its not intentional. Its on you to make sure you are clear and concise.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

    have the skills work like tonics or things you'd find in the toy category of the gem store

    This sounds like you're sucking all the fun out of the game to replace it with something superficial. And having to use a skill slot for it makes it even worse than just a tonic.

    it's a bare bones suggestion but one i believe has potential since "doesn't affect combat" is a minor limitation and i wouldn't call everything non-combat related superficial

    also a ui change wil probably be necessary no matter what you do given the revenant unless all of them get's turned into passive abilities

    I'd really like all the new skills be accessible to revenant as well.. They desperately need better customization and them being allowed to use potentially 10 different cultural/racial skills sounds like a build tester's dream to me. You point it out as a bad thing, I just see fun.

    I don't see it as a bad thing but if you want to misconstrue half my arguments and ignore the rest thats fine too

    I'd suggest trying to explain it better than, because if I'm getting something wrong, its not intentional. Its on you to make sure you are clear and concise.

    you replied to my suggestion that it would be annoying to have to slot the racial skills into skill slots in place of combat skills (aka a ui issue)

    having to use a skill slot for it makes it even worse than just a tonic.

    this is what i was replying to with:

    a ui change wil probably be necessary no matter what you do given the revenant unless all of them get's turned into passive abilities

    the argument being that you can't really use ui issues as an argument since it would need change no matter what you did
    revenant was just one of the reasons (and the easiest one to explain) that a ui change is inevitable

    but pls do point out where i said this was a bad thing because i don't see it.

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:
    The problem with anything racial is that if it has a large enough impact on how a profession is played, like in this case being an entire trait line, it will not be enough to be "X class", people would start asking for "X race X class" because that race performs better on the class because of the racials in some way or another. This is why the racial skills are slightly underwhelming compared to class skills, they are there for flavor.

    If you in order to solve this gives the racials to all classes, they are not racials anymore.

    If they're not meant to be good why have them in the game? If they're not meant to be used what good are they to the players? Why have them at all? Personally, having them as common skills wouldn't be a problem. People could still use them as a means of role play or flavor for their character. Having them open to other races could be that "X character of the Sylvari race was so captivated by the norn culture she wanted to study and learn from them and practice in their arts." or something like that. I feel that this argument isn't that convincing since the skills are in the game, the races were supposed to have differences. But Arena net can't have it both ways. They can either make the skills good and give players a reason to play something aside from Human, make them good and keep them open to all races, or Keep them garbage and players annoyed at them and questioning why arena net introduced races in the first place.

    or they could rework them into non-combat skills

    And how would that work exactly? You're going to need to explain it because that has no in game equivalence.

    have the skills work like tonics or things you'd find in the toy category of the gem store

    This sounds like you're sucking all the fun out of the game to replace it with something superficial. And having to use a skill slot for it makes it even worse than just a tonic.

    it's a bare bones suggestion but one i believe has potential since "doesn't affect combat" is a minor limitation and i wouldn't call everything non-combat related superficial

    also a ui change wil probably be necessary no matter what you do given the revenant unless all of them get's turned into passive abilities

    I'd really like all the new skills be accessible to revenant as well.. They desperately need better customization and them being allowed to use potentially 10 different cultural/racial skills sounds like a build tester's dream to me. You point it out as a bad thing, I just see fun.

    I don't see it as a bad thing but if you want to misconstrue half my arguments and ignore the rest thats fine too

    I'd suggest trying to explain it better than, because if I'm getting something wrong, its not intentional. Its on you to make sure you are clear and concise.

    you replied to my suggestion that it would be annoying to have to slot the racial skills into skill slots in place of combat skills (aka a ui issue)

    having to use a skill slot for it makes it even worse than just a tonic.

    this is what i was replying to with:

    a ui change wil probably be necessary no matter what you do given the revenant unless all of them get's turned into passive abilities

    the argument being that you can't really use ui issues as an argument since it would need change no matter what you did
    revenant was just one of the reasons (and the easiest one to explain) that a ui change is inevitable

    but pls do point out where i said this was a bad thing because i don't see it.

    I'm still not following your reasoning on why that would have to happen. You're going to need to explain it a lot better because right now you're making assumptions.

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