I'm sorry for Trahearne (SPOILERS) - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I'm sorry for Trahearne (SPOILERS)

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Comments

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Haters gonna hate.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2018

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

    Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

    I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

    You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

    "The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing"

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

    Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

    I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

    You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

    Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

    Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

    I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

    You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

    Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.

    Isn’t the burden of proof, yours?

  • Diak Atoli.2085Diak Atoli.2085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

    Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

    I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

    You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

    Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.

    Isn’t the burden of proof, yours?

    Shh! It's just getting good!

    Popcorn, anyone?

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    If you think the way he was executed is just "above" average, then you are in serious denial, but that much has been obvious from the start. I don't have a "gross misunderstanding" of what a Mary Sue is, I'm just not in denial about it and I'm actually willing to accept that not all sues are equally OP, but he still pulls skills out of nowhere, whether you're willing to admit it or not. Just like how you keep denying the spotlight thing, but you do you. You thought Jok(e)o was a good character after all.

    Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

    I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

    You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

    Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.

    Isn’t the burden of proof, yours?

    I gave plenty of examples, doesn't mean I can't say the rebuttals to my examples are valid ones... Which is exactly what I said?

    His "flaws" come off less as actual character flaws and more like minor things in a vain attempt to make us feel sorry for the character, it isn't until HoT that they have him fail so they could get rid of the failed character he was. He's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too. Both of these are Mary Sue traits. The lack of any real personality or being shallow as a character is also a trait, but it's clear you won't accept anything below "literally invincible and godlike" as a Mary Sue despite it having more of a range than that.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @deatine.2498 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of my personal story all about him, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

    I liked exactly that. It's so ridiculous that by now, every player is the original heroest hero around. It makes much more sense if we're just one of many random people with their own, but ultimately hidden, personal story who contributed instead of being the main character. Total immersion breaker in an MMORPG.

    Which is fine and dandy in general. The problem is that in GW2 there is this heavy emphasis on the story being the very personal story of your character. That’s the way they sold it in the promotional material pre-launch and how it is in-game (such as the very name itself - personal story). Furthermore, as mentioned, it is how the first two thirds of the vanilla story is structured.

    Until Tree Jebus shows up, of course. Then all that goes out the window and your character is just there to witness to him. But I digress.

    My point being, had there not been this obvious focus on how it very much was meant to be your story from the start, I doubt I would be so annoyed with Trahearny Sue showing up and “stealing the spotlight” as it were. But since it obviously is structured that way (starting from the very choices you make in character creation) it really, reaaaaally grinds my gears.

    Especially with my main being Norn, as his whole motivation is to forge his own Legend; not to witness someone else’s from the sidelines.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Like I said, he may be a well designed character, but he was poorly executed. That's where people's complaints come from - the execution. And ultimately, many, like you, mistaken this poor execution for "Mary Suedom" or something similar, because you have an apparent gross misunderstanding of what a Mary Sue is.

    Poor execution is basically what distinguishes a Mary Sue from a character that is legitimately awesome.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @deatine.2498 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of my personal story all about him, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

    I liked exactly that. It's so ridiculous that by now, every player is the original heroest hero around. It makes much more sense if we're just one of many random people with their own, but ultimately hidden, personal story who contributed instead of being the main character. Total immersion breaker in an MMORPG.

    Which is fine and dandy in general. The problem is that in GW2 there is this heavy emphasis on the story being the very personal story of your character. That’s the way they sold it in the promotional material pre-launch and how it is in-game (such as the very name itself - personal story). Furthermore, as mentioned, it is how the first two thirds of the vanilla story is structured.

    Until Tree Jebus shows up, of course. Then all that goes out the window and your character is just there to witness to him. But I digress.

    My point being, had there not been this obvious focus on how it very much was meant to be your story from the start, I doubt I would be so annoyed with Trahearny Sue showing up and “stealing the spotlight” as it were. But since it obviously is structured that way (starting from the very choices you make in character creation) it really, reaaaaally grinds my gears.

    Especially with my main being Norn, as his whole motivation is to forge his own Legend; not to witness someone else’s from the sidelines.

    So you would have prefer yourself to be the Pact Marshall and send Trehearne to go fight Zhaitan?

  • Musaroxy.2874Musaroxy.2874 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    It just means that the personal story is best experienced through multiple characters/ races to see the cogs/wheels to truly appreciate the plot.

    Yes, exactly that! While it does form a lot of the negative opinions that this post showcases, if one stops and looks, it's so specifically designed to be that way. So many of the side characters turn out to have depth, and backstory, so long as you play through on different races, and get different points of view. It applies quite thoroughly to the ups and downs of Trahearne as a character too.

    "You know what they say: Curiosity pruned the Sylvari."

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @deatine.2498 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    No. I will never forgive his Mary Sue treebutt for coming in and stealing the show, making the latter half of my personal story all about him, nor will I ever take anything but sick pleasure from having been the one to do him in for good.

    I liked exactly that. It's so ridiculous that by now, every player is the original heroest hero around. It makes much more sense if we're just one of many random people with their own, but ultimately hidden, personal story who contributed instead of being the main character. Total immersion breaker in an MMORPG.

    Which is fine and dandy in general. The problem is that in GW2 there is this heavy emphasis on the story being the very personal story of your character. That’s the way they sold it in the promotional material pre-launch and how it is in-game (such as the very name itself - personal story). Furthermore, as mentioned, it is how the first two thirds of the vanilla story is structured.

    Until Tree Jebus shows up, of course. Then all that goes out the window and your character is just there to witness to him. But I digress.

    My point being, had there not been this obvious focus on how it very much was meant to be your story from the start, I doubt I would be so annoyed with Trahearny Sue showing up and “stealing the spotlight” as it were. But since it obviously is structured that way (starting from the very choices you make in character creation) it really, reaaaaally grinds my gears.

    Especially with my main being Norn, as his whole motivation is to forge his own Legend; not to witness someone else’s from the sidelines.

    So you would have prefer yourself to be the Pact Marshall and send Trehearne to go fight Zhaitan?

    I’d prefer the character of Trahearny Sue either omitted entirely or reduced to an “Orr advisor” kinda role.

    Anything but the current Tree Jebus thing.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • spartan.9421spartan.9421 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd like to throw my hat into the ring as well.
    But first, the definition of a "Mary Sue". To Google~!

    The definition of a Mary Sue, pulled from Wikipedia: "A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the main protagonist of the story, such as by saving the hero."

    Well, by that definition, he clearly isn't a Mary Sue. He can't perform tasks better than he should, he's not perfect, and has obvious flaws. He constantly doubt himself and second guests himself, displaying a lack of confidence. during the "against the corruption" story quest, he does seem ready to just give up, claiming it's impossible to cleanse Orr. You could argue that he has depression, though i'm not sure about that.

    As for his ability to perform tasks better than he should.... i can't really find anything about this. You could argue that his leading is better than it should be but, there is not much of a case there. He puts on a face to make it look like he knows what he's doing, most likely to keep morale up. But behind closed doors, he's unsure of himself, seeking advice from his four advisers, one of them being us, the PC.

    As for upstaging the main protagonist of the story.... when? When does he ever upstage us?(If you have an example of this, please list it.)
    Nor does he ever save us, as far as i know. (Again, if you have any examples of him saving us, i would love to hear about them.)

    Hate him if you hate him, but don't wrongly label him as a Mary Sue, he isn't.

    Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    He may not fit the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue but he has enough annoying Mary Sueish qualities about him that he fits in the popular useage of the term since it has long since evolved past the dictionary definition.

    Just like Rey from the goddawful Star Wars movies (although, in his defense Trahearne isn’t anywhere near as bad).

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    I get the impression people misunderstand what "Personal Story" means?
    It means you play the whole story with a character you designed and customized. Anet used this term to advertise the decisions we get to do at the beginning of the story, which in theory makes for various stories for MCs, with more or less variation.

    It does not imply that we are the one and only important thing ever.

    This is not Sword Art Online. :D Fortunately. (Also, isn't it a bit embarassing to be that jealous of an NPC...? Just saying...)

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    He may not fit the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue but he has enough annoying Mary Sueish qualities about him.

    Such as? Summoning a bunch of minions, advising that it takes a lot of energy and control, then collapses aftwards?

  • Tsakhi.8124Tsakhi.8124 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    I get the impression people misunderstand what "Personal Story" means?
    It means you play the whole story with a character you designed and customized. Anet used this term to advertise the decisions we get to do at the beginning of the story, which in theory makes for various stories for MCs, with more or less variation.

    It does not imply that we are the one and only important thing ever.

    This is not Sword Art Online. :D Fortunately. (Also, isn't it a bit embarassing to be that jealous of an NPC...? Just saying...)

    Thank the Six (Five) for that! I would actually stop playing if it went down a SAO path. (I'm one of the few that genuinely hated SAO. VEGETABLE SHIELD ACTIVATE!) Vwwwooom.

    Ṡ̴͍̱̯̫̤̈o̶͍̪͔͚͉̖̤̍̈͛̊͑̈́́͗̿͊̆͝r̷̥̩͍̹͖̬̗̳̣̰͛͜r̵̡̡̛̩̠̳͉̺̞̥̤̘̭̽y̴̨̠̹͔̞̤̭̥̤͔͖͖̏̿́͆̈̈́̄̇̀̔͝ͅ

  • I like the irony in the fate of Trahearne... The scholar of Orr died because of his lack of knowledge.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I never really had much of an issue with Trahearne as a scholar or as the one selected by the Pale Tree to use Caladbolg to purify the Artesian waters. That's a plotline that runs through the entire course of the personal story (if you're a sylvari) and he's written well for the part. It's an important part of the fight against Zhaitan, but not the be-all and end-all.

    It's just that shoehorning him into the role of Pact leader as well feels hard to justify -- why would you pick the charmless, uncertain loner who doesn't seem to know anything about commanding miliatry forces and who is going to just do whatever his one friend (who, in 2/3 of cases, is a member of a different Order) tells him? I think it was probably a way to avoid needing to a write a second character for that role, but it contributes a lot to the Mary Sue impression. He isn't just the Pale Tree's Chosen One, he's also leader of the world's largest paramilitary force. Being Treesus alone might be okay (and he's written well enough to support that role), being Stick Fury alone might be okay (if he was re-written for it), but both at the same time feels a little Mary Sue. The whole Pact concept itself bugs me. I don't mean the concept of the Orders working together, more the creation of a bland new supergroup that creates an excuse to sideline all the interesting lore and character of the Orders and eliminate the PC's connection to their chosen Order.

    Anyway, I think they could have split the role of Trahearne into five racial characters who aren't exactly iconics, but play a major role throughout the entire storyline, such that none would feel over-important or overused. A Sylvari whose Wyld Hunt is to reclaim Caladbolg and purify (corrupt for Mordremoth?) the Artesian waters. A human who is a scholar of Orr and the gods and a powerful necromancer (Priestess Rhie, with a bigger role). An Asura researching dragons and dragon-killing lasers (Gorr, with a bigger role). A Charr war-mechanic who dreams of flight and builds the Pact's first flying machines. And a fierce but savvy Norn Lionguard who survived and led the retreat from the original battle of Lion's Arch, worked with the Orders to coordinate the assault on Claw Island, and continues in that vein as a war commander for all three Orders to take down Zhaitan.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nogothanc.5014 said:
    I like the irony in the fate of Trahearne... The scholar of Orr died because of his lack of knowledge.

    That’s sort of the racial irony inherent to all Sylvari. They’re fated/destined to these grandiose things individually but on the whole they are a naive and virgin race which at best causes comedic mishaps, and in worst case leads to terrible consequences for them (their abuse at the hands of Asura following their first contact, for example) or others.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2018

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Congratulations, for every single post so far you've proclaimed I said something I didn't. You must be proud of yourself.

    I'd like you to try to give what your apparent definition of a Mary Sue is, because so far the attributes you've called out on Trahearne are pretty standard major character attributes across fiction, and is apparent in almost every member of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch. So far, the only thing you've managed to consistently say is "a Mary Sue is a major character", which is as I've said, an incorrect definition of Mary Sue.

    You say time and time again that he "pulls skills out of nowhere", but yet every example you've given has been incorrect, and not only rebuttled by myself at this point.

    Because none of your rebuttals actually have any founding, you keep saying he's just like any other character in the setting while ignoring all the things that make him stand out ahead of them. Because again, you're in denial because you're not willing to admit your apparent waifu is a bad character.
    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Isn’t the burden of proof, yours?

    I gave plenty of examples, doesn't mean I can't say the rebuttals to my examples are valid ones... Which is exactly what I said?

    His "flaws" come off less as actual character flaws and more like minor things in a vain attempt to make us feel sorry for the character, it isn't until HoT that they have him fail so they could get rid of the failed character he was. He's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too. Both of these are Mary Sue traits. The lack of any real personality or being shallow as a character is also a trait, but it's clear you won't accept anything below "literally invincible and godlike" as a Mary Sue despite it having more of a range than that.

    It's funny, really, how you keep deflecting my argument by just saying "NAH DOESN"T COUNT GO kitten UR WAIFU" but I've repeatedly stated that 1) I think Trahearne was poorly written while having a decent development, so I obviously don't like his character and certainly not to the extent you deflect things to, and 2) have actually presented explicit reasons for why your so called "examples" are incorrect, yet all you can say about my rebuttles are "they aren't valid" without stating why they're not valid.

    As for "he doesn't fail", he actually does. Firstly, he fell into a risen trap during Forging the Pact, and during Against the Corruption his ritual failed as he thought of the wrong place to perform it. Both times, it was the PC who bailed his kitten out. These aren't strong failings in of themselves, sure, though his self-critcism is present in most dialogue throughout chapters 7 and 8, but the lack of showing these failings is less an issue of Trahearne's character, and more an issue of the method of storytelling.

    Namely, that method being the short story instances that much be resolved before each instance ends. They've gotten better at this, but the PS (and Season 2) are all very short instances which solve their issues within the instances almost every time.

    Trahearne's writing has pretty major issues. But he's not a Mary Sue character.

    As to "he's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too." This goes for every major character there is. Caithe has permastealth. Marjory creates a bone bridge and has half a dozen minions made. Kasmeer can make up to 20 phantasms and clones at a time and knock of time warp like it was an autoattack skill. And let's not get into what Jennah does, which is similar to what Kitah and Koro has performed. What Trahearne does that isn't amplified by Caladbolg (hell, even with Caladbolg) is pretty on par, if not subpar, to the members of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch, as well as the Ebon Falcons, Asclaon's Chosen (namely, Devona and co. henchmen), and the Canthan heroes of old.

    In all honesty, reminding myself about these characters makes Trahearne feel hilariously subpar.

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    He may not fit the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue but he has enough annoying Mary Sueish qualities about him that he fits in the popular useage of the term since it has long since evolved past the dictionary definition.

    "Popular usage" of the term "mary sue" is pretty much just saying "that is a character I don't like". Just because it's used incorrectly to define something that is horribly different from what the term means, doesn't make using that term incorrectly correct.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2018

    No it is not. The popular useage of Mary Sue is just what I said: a character with Mary Sue-like qualities except not fitting the very, very narrow textbook definition.

    Language and terms evolve, y’know. The term has grown in popularity and useage that it has outgrown it’s very limited, fan-fictiony origins.

    See Rey from Star Wars, for example. Terrible Mary Sue in literally every way except fitting the textbook definition - although I guess one could argue that her movies are indeed fan-fiction. Terrible, terrible fan-fiction...

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    it is not clear if our role was to be a kind of "politician" or an adventurer.

    Both!

    -kitten hits the fan-

    Oh kitten... alright... I'm... gonna go kill the big bad real quick, uhhhh, Faren! Go convince those crazy sylvari sisters why it's a bad idea to burn down The Grove! Go! The sociopolitical landscape of the world depends on you!

    And no kinky buisness this time, you rascal!

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    No it is not. The popular useage of Mary Sue is just what I said: a character with Mary Sue-like qualities except not fitting the very, very narrow textbook definition.

    So, according to you a Mary Sue is a Mary Sue and is defined by being a Mary Sue. And you are right anyway no matter what.

    Very impressive.

    I still think he'd have deserved more dignity in dying and afterwards. Having to kill him even after Mordremoth was defeated, in such a horrible place, that was just cruel and unnecessary. Also, horrible and traumatic deaths in Tyria tend to cause souls to go to the Realm of the Lost. His body was destroyed anyway and we must assume that not even his soul found peace, but instead got destroyed by that monster we defeated in PoF. Eir got a really great and well-deserved funeral. Trahearne got treated like some random local sylvari hero no one cared about.
    This is just so much of an overkill, even if he was hated by parts of the fandom. Could he not have died in battle or something? Maybe really turned against the Pact and fought the Commander? Anything other than what we got.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agree to disagree, then. I’m never going to buy the notion that Tree Jebus isn’t the worst character ever, nor are you ever going to see it my way. At this point, pushing the issue will just lead to nastiness and the infractions flying.

    As for your closing point, though: I’d love to. Being allowed to replay the personal story has been on my personal wishlist for years now...

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Like I just said in the Taimi thread, there's no "agree to disagree" about facts. It's either a fact, or it isn't.

    And in this case, Mary Sue doesn't mean "any character who has a singular Mary Sue characteristic" (if that were true, every character would be a Mary Sue, tbh). And Trahearne isn't a Mary Sue by any actual definition of the term. These are simply facts.

    These are not opinions. Opinions are whether or not Trahearne is a good character or a bad character, or whether it was a good narrative to kill him off. That is where you can agree to disagree.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    I honestly think Trahearne could have been a decent character with a different voice actor. For me, a big part of disliking the character was listening to him. Just... not much emotion. His voice only had one tone.

    I don't miss him, though... I liked his tragic end, felt appropriately dramatic.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2018

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    No it is not. The popular useage of Mary Sue is just what I said: a character with Mary Sue-like qualities except not fitting the very, very narrow textbook definition.

    So, according to you a Mary Sue is a Mary Sue and is defined by being a Mary Sue. And you are right anyway no matter what.

    Very impressive.

    I still think he'd have deserved more dignity in dying and afterwards. Having to kill him even after Mordremoth was defeated, in such a horrible place, that was just cruel and unnecessary. Also, horrible and traumatic deaths in Tyria tend to cause souls to go to the Realm of the Lost. His body was destroyed anyway and we must assume that not even his soul found peace, but instead got destroyed by that monster we defeated in PoF. Eir got a really great and well-deserved funeral. Trahearne got treated like some random local sylvari hero no one cared about.
    This is just so much of an overkill, even if he was hated by parts of the fandom. Could he not have died in battle or something? Maybe really turned against the Pact and fought the Commander? Anything other than what we got.

    Well, Trahearne did end his life a hero and it was after a large battle. More so for him it was a battle in the mindscape.

    Also Trahearne got a bit of closure with a statue in the grove and a good send off in Knight of the Thorn side collection. Though that was only an echo of him if I recall. Still a decent send off.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    I honestly think Trahearne could have been a decent character with a different voice actor.

    That's what we've got with the versions in different languages. I am playing the German version where his VA is decent, even though the lines themselves tend to be cringy. The wording is just... off. I don't see this problem when watching scenes of the English version, though.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Well, Trahearne did end his life a hero and it was after a large battle. More so for him it was a battle in the mindscape.

    Also Trahearne got a bit of closure with a statue in the grove and a good send off in Knight of the Thorn side collection. Though that was only an echo of him if I recall. Still a decent send off.

    Yes, the Knight of the Thorn story was indeed well done. But that statue in some corner of the Grove, come on. And that invitation was pretty insulting, too, asking if the Commander might perhaps be interested in showing up. No matter what the players think of Trahearne, the Commander as a character was his friend and Second in Command for years, not to mention the person who killed him. But yeah, well, maybe we'll come over sometime to give a nod to the statue, if there's nothing better to do.... Wow. Just wow.

    And no, I'm not buying that lame excuse of Mordremoth not being completely defeated after the mindscape battle etc. With that logic, we'd have to kill every sylvari just in case. That was not a worthy sacrifice, that was just an excuse to let the PCs kill Trahearne. Was that supposed to be some kind of reward?
    The battle could very well have been over when the PC returned from the dream.
    We even learn at the Labyrinthine Cliffs that he could indeed have recovered over time and that hearing voices does not necessarily mean anything.
    I mean, I'd even have found it more fitting if his "sacrifice" had just happened a bit earlier. Perhaps he could have used his death to open that portal to the dream for us. That would have still been an excuse, but at least it'd have had more meaning to it, maybe.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Yes, the Knight of the Thorn story was indeed well done. But that statue in some corner of the Grove, come on. And that invitation was pretty insulting, too, asking if the Commander might perhaps be interested in showing up. No matter what the players think of Trahearne, the Commander as a character was his friend and Second in Command for years, not to mention the person who killed him. But yeah, well, maybe we'll come over sometime to give a nod to the statue, if there's nothing better to do.... Wow. Just wow.

    And no, I'm not buying that lame excuse of Mordremoth not being completely defeated after the mindscape battle etc. With that logic, we'd have to kill every sylvari just in case. That was not a worthy sacrifice, that was just an excuse to let the PCs kill Trahearne. Was that supposed to be some kind of reward?
    The battle could very well have been over when the PC returned from the dream.
    We even learn at the Labyrinthine Cliffs that he could indeed have recovered over time and that hearing voices does not necessarily mean anything.
    I mean, I'd even have found it more fitting if his "sacrifice" had just happened a bit earlier. Perhaps he could have used his death to open that portal to the dream for us. That would have still been an excuse, but at least it'd have had more meaning to it, maybe.

    yeah, and if the question was to get the Trahearne off the scene, they could just put him busy with Orr's purification.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    I honestly think Trahearne could have been a decent character with a different voice actor.

    That's what we've got with the versions in different languages. I am playing the German version where his VA is decent, even though the lines themselves tend to be cringy. The wording is just... off. I don't see this problem when watching scenes of the English version, though.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Well, Trahearne did end his life a hero and it was after a large battle. More so for him it was a battle in the mindscape.

    Also Trahearne got a bit of closure with a statue in the grove and a good send off in Knight of the Thorn side collection. Though that was only an echo of him if I recall. Still a decent send off.

    Yes, the Knight of the Thorn story was indeed well done. But that statue in some corner of the Grove, come on. And that invitation was pretty insulting, too, asking if the Commander might perhaps be interested in showing up. No matter what the players think of Trahearne, the Commander as a character was his friend and Second in Command for years, not to mention the person who killed him. But yeah, well, maybe we'll come over sometime to give a nod to the statue, if there's nothing better to do.... Wow. Just wow.

    And no, I'm not buying that lame excuse of Mordremoth not being completely defeated after the mindscape battle etc. With that logic, we'd have to kill every sylvari just in case. That was not a worthy sacrifice, that was just an excuse to let the PCs kill Trahearne. Was that supposed to be some kind of reward?
    The battle could very well have been over when the PC returned from the dream.
    We even learn at the Labyrinthine Cliffs that he could indeed have recovered over time and that hearing voices does not necessarily mean anything.
    I mean, I'd even have found it more fitting if his "sacrifice" had just happened a bit earlier. Perhaps he could have used his death to open that portal to the dream for us. That would have still been an excuse, but at least it'd have had more meaning to it, maybe.

    I liked Trahearne. Had no beef with the guy. My guess was that the devs wanted the Battle with Mordremoth to be a costly one. With characters, who have much more development, unlike what we had with Zhaitan, where we had seen a character in a couple instance and should feel bad, when they die, but usually don’t. The only ones that fit that mold better would be the mentors.

    The death of a member of Destiny’s Edge and the Pact Marshall was the cost.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2018

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    We even learn at the Labyrinthine Cliffs that he could indeed have recovered over time and that hearing voices does not necessarily mean anything.

    To be fair, what he had going on went a tad beyond hearing voices. There was that whole bit where he says removing him would kill him anyway, but more than that, we see the supposedly 'dead' Mordremoth overcome him at the end, complete with a visible manifestation behind Trahearne. And the burst when Mordremoth's magic is finally released? It doesn't come when the Mouth dies, or the mental avatar. It takes Trahearne's death to disperse it.

    I agree that it wasn't a necessary twist, but it was well set up and integrated into the story. Regardless of leaving a bad taste in my mouth, they took care that it fit.

    As for whether Trahearne is a Mary Sue? It depends entirely on which version of the term you subscribe to. I agree with Oglaf that popular usage determines definition, and not the other way around- especially with terms that are community-generated jargon to begin with- but Konig wasn't kidding when he said that the only part of the meaning you can reliably count on people agreeing to is the 'character I dislike' bit. Just going through TVTropes' list of interpretations, which isn't exhaustive- Trahearne could be a close fit for a couple, a debatable fit for others, and not even in the running for the rest. If somebody going by the Center of Attention version is talking to someone going by the Alien Element version, of course they're going to disagree. For all intents and purposes, they're talking about two different things.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2018

    Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham either :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^
    His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

    So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 Yes of course, the way it was set up left us no option. I'm just saying that that setup was already completely unnecessary and just an excuse to get the players to kill Trahearne. It would not have hurt the story in the slightest if Mordremoth had just died completely after the combined mindscape / Mouth of Mordremoth battle.

    Also, having a little bit of Mordremoth survive in a weak state would have been good for Tyria, really. But no one could have known that at that point, so...

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    Ah, I see, good point. My only norn character is still stuck in early level missions, so I didn't get much interactions with Eir and Braham from that perspective.

  • I loved him.

    let the sky fall

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^
    His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

    So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

    Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

    Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

    This is one of those situations of like many situations with GW2 as the one Commander of all the races has to some how act like a human, a norn, a Sylvari, an Asura and a Charr, without creating too much of a different narrative for the game. Yeah there’s the odd flavour line for the different races, but the outcome remains.

    If the Norn Commander gave Braham too much what for, then Braham would just shut up and learn his place which would then change the narrative, as it might not reflect an asura or a Sylvari. It’s a bit of tough thing really.

  • Loki.4871Loki.4871 Member ✭✭

    He was a victim of a poor script/implementation; I think a good example would be (of all npcs) Kormir from GW1, pre Gandara invasion. There she's a vague figure you bump into a few times, she tells you what to do but beyond being a plot dispenser, doesn't really do anything.
    The biggest example of where it went 'wrong' in gw2 for me was when you're asked to go find out what's wrong with the lumber supply at a nearby camp. Before the cutscene had ended and I'd finished loading in to play, I heard Trehearne going "I'll come with you."

    If the bossman is going to go, why am I needed there? I should be somewhere else, doing something else. That mission would have been more interesting if I'd gone to check and then Trehearne was the target of an assassination attempt, or something.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^
    His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

    So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

    Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

    Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

    This is one of those situations of like many situations with GW2 as the one Commander of all the races has to some how act like a human, a norn, a Sylvari, an Asura and a Charr, without creating too much of a different narrative for the game. Yeah there’s the odd flavour line for the different races, but the outcome remains.

    If the Norn Commander gave Braham too much what for, then Braham would just shut up and learn his place which would then change the narrative, as it might not reflect an asura or a Sylvari. It’s a bit of tough thing really.

    Indeed. I totally understand “the why” so to speak. Still doesn’t make me any less irritated by it. The super-generic writing out of necessity for the Commander is probably the weakest part of the writing (especially compared to the first chapters of the personal story that are specifically designed for your race).

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly, I think the problem is less about Trahearne (though his voice-acting was indeed insufferably flat) and more about how the personal story is structured. You are led to believe that your choice of Order matters, but then our Order and many of our choices utterly stops mattering as we are thrust into 2nd-in-Command under Trahearne. In this manner, Trahearne becomes a symptom of both fatigue and frustration players have in this bottlenecking of the story. I was not interested in playing sidekick to Trahearne's vision quest from the Pale Tree, and I was disappointed that my Order faded into nothingness after Claw Island.

    I think my own preference would have been for us to preserve the importance of our Order but become a field commander for your Order under Trahearne, directing the warfront in our Order-specific way. Working towards the same goal - Zhaitan and Trahearne's cleansing of Orr - but in different ways and perspectives. But also not with Trahearne tagging along everywhere.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Moonyeti.3296 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^
    His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

    So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

    Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

    Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

    I agree completely about Braham, It felt very un norn like to mourn that way. I heard a lot of people say "he is a teen that lost his mother, it makes sense" but that would be true if he were a human, or not already established as being pretty typical norn as far as cultural values. To me, as a norn he was disrespecting his mother's legend by acting that way. Anet goes out of their way to say that Norn are not just big humans, but they constantly ignore Norn specific culture and just go for cliche, relatable writing, making them come off as essentially just big humans.

    I couldn’t agree more about how Anet are essentially wasting the potential of the Norn race. It is as you say, your average player really just sees them as “big humans”.

    Here’s hoping for a third expansion focusing on the Norns and Jormag, eh?

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Moonyeti.3296 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^
    His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

    So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

    Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

    Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

    I agree completely about Braham, It felt very un norn like to mourn that way. I heard a lot of people say "he is a teen that lost his mother, it makes sense" but that would be true if he were a human, or not already established as being pretty typical norn as far as cultural values. To me, as a norn he was disrespecting his mother's legend by acting that way. Anet goes out of their way to say that Norn are not just big humans, but they constantly ignore Norn specific culture and just go for cliche, relatable writing, making them come off as essentially just big humans.

    I couldn’t agree more about how Anet are essentially wasting the potential of the Norn race. It is as you say, your average player really just sees them as “big humans”.

    Here’s hoping for a third expansion focusing on the Norns and Jormag, eh?

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Moonyeti.3296 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Uhm... I actually don't hate Braham as well :lol: I play light-armor classes mostly, so NPCs like Braham and Canach are nice shields. ^^
    His emo phase just seemed to be some teenager thing, no big deal, nothing to get upset about. At least I couldn't take it seriously at any point and just waited for him to calm down.

    So yeah, I guess we've got pretty different views on the characters, @Oglaf.1074 ? :lol:

    Well, my hate for him stems mostly from a purely Norn-y perspective. I feel like the way my character dealt with his emo-ness was extremely jarring and unfitting to a character who also knew Eir to such a degree as he does. Had the writers actually given you some unique Norn-y ways to deal with him, I guess it wouldn't have been so bad.

    Like, my Norn knew Eir better then Braham ever could. I just wish he would've slapped him upside the head and told him off for being selfish in acting like Eir's death affected him way worse than anyone else... :angry:

    I agree completely about Braham, It felt very un norn like to mourn that way. I heard a lot of people say "he is a teen that lost his mother, it makes sense" but that would be true if he were a human, or not already established as being pretty typical norn as far as cultural values. To me, as a norn he was disrespecting his mother's legend by acting that way. Anet goes out of their way to say that Norn are not just big humans, but they constantly ignore Norn specific culture and just go for cliche, relatable writing, making them come off as essentially just big humans.

    I couldn’t agree more about how Anet are essentially wasting the potential of the Norn race. It is as you say, your average player really just sees them as “big humans”.

    Here’s hoping for a third expansion focusing on the Norns and Jormag, eh?

    The Norn to me are the race I sympathize the third most with after humans and Sylvari, and by far the ones I think with the most potential. There's a whole pantheon of untapped spirits of the wild that we just don't look into in favor of the four primary ones. Likewise the Norns dynamic with groups like the Son's of Svanir is interesting, there's no real centralized social structure and by extension there really isn't a traditional concept of good and evil. Norn are individualistic to the extreme, seeking fame, fortune, and glory to build a legend sometimes without regards for the pesky ethical questions of that legend, with all the good and the bad that come with that. I could see a compelling character crafted as an anti-villian whose central premise isn't that he wants to consume the world or murder people of power, but rather that he just wants to be legendary.

    And there's so much room for exploration of different cultural facets, of what various Norn tribes might do isolated from one another. They have no government, no army, no centralized police force outside of major crimes. A major city could easily qualify as a hostile zone cause, it's not quite lawless, but it is rife wit people out there out to make a name for themselves with no real sense of constraint. On the flipside you could see the benefits of this borderline anarchy where people are allowed to be free, to voice whatever opinion they might want, to pursue whatever they might want to do. As long as it's building some magnificent legend it wouldn't be considered 'un-Norn like' to be a Mesmeric painter or structural engineer, and that's a missed opportunity. Because people don't just see Norn as bigger humans right now, they see them as oafish dumb brutes, and you can weave a much more interesting and less one dimensional personality then that out of a society where anything can happen.

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