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I'm sorry for Trahearne (SPOILERS)

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  • @mightylemur.7160 said:
    I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but if anything, the PC is more of a mary sue in my opinion rather than Trahearne (not that I have a problem with it). Also, Trahearne is the one asking you what to do in nearly every situation :)

    yea I'd agree at the start of the story we are totally one, later on though not so much because we learn skills and since they made masteries its justified I believe, since you are "gaining experience" to learn how to do it, granted thats just events and killing mobs/hearts and doesnt have anything to actually do with your mount learning to long jump or you learning how to mount up mid air (griffon)

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mightylemur.7160 said:
    I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but if anything, the PC is more of a mary sue in my opinion rather than Trahearne (not that I have a problem with it). Also, Trahearne is the one asking you what to do in nearly every situation :)

    Player Characters being Mary Sues is industry standard when it comes to vidja gajms.

    RPGs in particular. Power Fantasy(TM) and all that.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • I can't say I ever liked Trahearne, despite his importance he was rather bland and uninteresting. Even in death, he could barely muster up any emotion. I don't miss him. Maybe if his character had shown a bit more emotion, but in 99% of the scenes, his Voice Actor sounded uninterested in the character he was playing.

    I personally am glad that he made a heroic sacrifice in the end. A good ending for a so-so character.

  • Llethander.3972Llethander.3972 Member ✭✭✭

    I couldn't stand his drab monotone. He made me want to jam red hot pencils in my ears.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Llethander.3972 said:
    I couldn't stand his drab monotone. He made me want to jam red hot pencils in my ears.

    It is like someone trying to do a Nemoyian Vulcan but without the little touches that made Spock’s mannerisms and voice work.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @mightylemur.7160 said:
    I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but if anything, the PC is more of a mary sue in my opinion rather than Trahearne (not that I have a problem with it). Also, Trahearne is the one asking you what to do in nearly every situation :)

    Player Characters being Mary Sues is industry standard when it comes to vidja gajms.

    RPGs in particular. Power Fantasy(TM) and all that.

    I agree and understand why they do it. Players would be quite unhappy if their character would do something that they themselves would not do in some situations.

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭

    @JOKERVIRUS.6501 said:
    To all those who love saying he is a Mary Sue, you are completely off base with this statement just as much as those who thought Scarlet was.

    1st off Anet has not gone into super detail on exactly how each Sylvari is affected by their Wyld Hunt, given the fact that they were originally minions designed to conquer the land it is 100% possible that EACH Sylvari actually has a specialized focus since their "birth" like say Scarlet maybe having a natural affinity for learning (which would explain how she was able to grasp and do well with all the various teachings she experience), Trahearne could have had an affinity for strategy and military formations (considering the original purpose of Mordrem this is highly possible).

    2nd he didn't appear out of "no where" to those saying this Im very certain you either never played a Slyvari or you rushed through all the dialog options, cause let's face it the core story/game was setting things up for the 1st expansion very very obviously. IF you played a Slyvari and even just did the very first part of your PS you are told of the Firstborn and his deeds, he is introduced in a very normal fashion, a problem does arise if you play any other race in that you feel he is suddenly forced into the story. But this makes sense from all aspects, if you go to another land or maybe just a different company or branch of military, do you all the sudden know of the entire past of your superiors? Would you call your RL boss/superior a Mary Sue just because they have skills and a history you don't know about?
    If you played as a human and actually paid attention you'd realize Humans in Tyria aren't always honest and don't always care about the other races, hell we were that way in GW, we never learned WHY the Charr hated us until you actually played a bit, we didn't know much about Asura until you went and met them nor the Dwarves. Norn are the same, it took meeting a Jotun to learn about their past, Asura as a whole seem to view other beneath them and clearly (few exceptions) don't bother to even acknowledge others achievements.
    And as Rognik said unless you wanted to play Paperwork Wars, there is zero reason for you to be the Leader of the Pact, you would never do half the missions we did or be placed directly on the front lines getting to actually fight, the EXACT reason Brimstone hated being in a position of leadership and why as a Charr you never see any of the Imperator's out and about on missions until it was highly important and they absolutely needed to be there, Smodur literally spends all his time doing paperwork and meetings. I for one would have absolutely hated the game if I had to play THAT role.

    Finally the idea that Trahearne stole your story is completely insane, the entire story you play is all about you rising to power, you aiding the Orders, you joining them and rising through the ranks, you befriending DE and you leading the assaults on various important fights and marks in the history of the world, Trahearne does the boring things that DO NOT make an adventure RPG.

    Beautifully said

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Palador.2170 said:
    I really disliked Trahearne at first, but over time and as I did more of the personal stories for all of the races, the more I grew to like him.

    I think the real problems with Trahearne are in three parts. The first part is that he's a good old friend with our Order mentor. And we find this out right before we lose our mentor. They meet, talk about old times for a bit (cutting us out of the conversation), and then that's the last we really talk to our mentor until the end. But there's Trahearne still, and the natural thought is "Why couldn't it have been you?"

    Second is the way things are presented. There's backstory between him and the orders, but you don't know that before it becomes important. And if you're not playing a sylvari, you don't know him at all. If he had been there, waiting to talk to your order leader the first time you met them, you would have known about his history with them AND with your mentor before it was a story point.

    Finally, I've realized who made me feel like I was just a support character in Trahearne's story, and it wasn't Trahearne. It was the Pale Tree. When we meet her, she focuses almost entirely on him, we're just an afterthought (even if we're a sylvari). He's told of his great destiny and how he'll lead Tyria to victory over the Elder Dragon. And we're ... along for the ride, so do try to be useful. And don't get in the great Firstborn's way. She even gives him, the non-combatant, the legendary weapon. (And if you're a sylvari, you're the one that got that damned sword back to begin with!) Yes, it turns out that he needs it later on to cleanse Orr, but we don't know that at the time. And while it may be an important symbol to the sylvari, nobody else knows what it is. It's not a symbol of leadership to bring the Orders together, but it IS a powerful weapon. Which we don't get, because Trahearne's the only one the Tree cares about.

    My issues with Trahearne tie in a lot with my issues with Sylvari as a whole and honestly it traces back to the tree too. I suppose I should be glad then that her wounding pushed the tree into the background.

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Palador.2170 said:

    Finally, I've realized who made me feel like I was just a support character in Trahearne's story, and it wasn't Trahearne. It was the Pale Tree. When we meet her, she focuses almost entirely on him, we're just an afterthought (even if we're a sylvari). He's told of his great destiny and how he'll lead Tyria to victory over the Elder Dragon. And we're ... along for the ride, so do try to be useful. And don't get in the great Firstborn's way. She even gives him, the non-combatant, the legendary weapon. (And if you're a sylvari, you're the one that got that damned sword back to begin with!) Yes, it turns out that he needs it later on to cleanse Orr, but we don't know that at the time. And while it may be an important symbol to the sylvari, nobody else knows what it is. It's not a symbol of leadership to bring the Orders together, but it IS a powerful weapon. Which we don't get, because Trahearne's the only one the Tree cares about.

    Well thats pretty much why Canach dislikes the Firstborn in the first place

    They are THE firstborn and the rest is JUST Sylvari

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    @JOKERVIRUS.6501 said:
    And as Rognik said unless you wanted to play Paperwork Wars, there is zero reason for you to be the Leader of the Pact, you would never do half the missions we did or be placed directly on the front lines getting to actually fight, the EXACT reason Brimstone hated being in a position of leadership and why as a Charr you never see any of the Imperator's out and about on missions until it was highly important and they absolutely needed to be there, Smodur literally spends all his time doing paperwork and meetings. I for one would have absolutely hated the game if I had to play THAT role.

    Finally the idea that Trahearne stole your story is completely insane, the entire story you play is all about you rising to power, you aiding the Orders, you joining them and rising through the ranks, you befriending DE and you leading the assaults on various important fights and marks in the history of the world, Trahearne does the boring things that DO NOT make an adventure RPG.

    That's why I said my preference would have been for us not to be the leader of the pact, but a field commander of our Order in Orr.

    I do questions Trehearne's wisdom some times, particularly when he decides that it would be smart for the #1 and #2 of the Pact to isolate themselves on a flying ship with the Eye of Zhaitan for a science experiment to reanimate the eye. There were so many ways for that idea to go wrong and it nearly did.

    @norbes.3620 said:
    Well thats pretty much why Canach dislikes the Firstborn in the first place
    They are THE firstborn and the rest is JUST Sylvari

    Thankfully then, Canach only has eight to deal with now.

  • He was special at least with an willpower that surpasses that of an Sylvary pc. He resisted Modremoth in the center of his power. I do not think there is any other character in GW2 who showed stronger willpower. He was impressive really impressive.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Trahearne praised the PC all the time. I did not get the hate.

    Did Claw Island with a new character last night. Yeah, Trahearne talks a lot. And then it hit me:

    he is extremely lonely. He talks a lot because the PC is the only one listening and he has to get a lot of stuff off his chest.

    Poor guy. He was always nice, he always praised and lauded the PC. When he was not sure what to do, he asked the experts: that is extremely good leadership.

    And all he got was hatred :/

    Valid point. Look at any introvert (myself included) and get them talking to a person they feel comfortable with about a subject they care for? We can talk for hours.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

    "The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing"

    Trahearne is... a skilled scholar with knowledge on the Risen and Zhaitan *formed from years of study on them, and traveling to Orr several times), and a pretty good necromancer (formed from years of practice as he is a firstborn).

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    His "flaws" come off less as actual character flaws and more like minor things in a vain attempt to make us feel sorry for the character, it isn't until HoT that they have him fail so they could get rid of the failed character he was. He's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too. Both of these are Mary Sue traits. The lack of any real personality or being shallow as a character is also a trait, but it's clear you won't accept anything below "literally invincible and godlike" as a Mary Sue despite it having more of a range than that.

    What things does he do that other characters can't?

    Summon lots of minions? Oh you mean the thing we explicit see a random necromancer do in an event (summons 3-5 flesh golems at once, who talk, and promptly resummons any that die?)? The thing that is also explicitly a gameplay related limitation on the player, for balance reasons? (there is no information implying that this feat is unique to these two necromancers, Trahearne and the human, and that the limit is merely a balance thing placed on players. Have you see Gw1 minion masters who could field armies of 30-40 minions at once?)

    @Moonyeti.3296 said:
    I agree completely about Braham, It felt very un norn like to mourn that way. I heard a lot of people say "he is a teen that lost his mother, it makes sense" but that would be true if he were a human, or not already established as being pretty typical norn as far as cultural values. To me, as a norn he was disrespecting his mother's legend by acting that way. Anet goes out of their way to say that Norn are not just big humans, but they constantly ignore Norn specific culture and just go for cliche, relatable writing, making them come off as essentially just big humans.

    About Braham: I love how people act as if the commander - Braham interactions are wrong and "not like norn" And then promptly forget we are telling a teenager (19 about to be 20ish) who has never adventured before his home was destroyed (his crush literally turns him down and goes with a merchant for the mere fact the merchant has actually explored and wandered the world, while Braham never left Craigstead), and when he was just reconnecting with his mom, his mom died, and who literally holds an item that can make his legend immortal, to turn around and go home and stop.

    "Yes, let's tell the grieving Norn who NOBODY supported and helped grieve (Literally, Rox went to try to find Garm, everybody else went and did their own things until the funeral. Nobody ever talked to or hung out with Braham after we left the jungle), to give up this scroll that can crack the tooth of Jormag, making his legend (and by extension, his mother's) legend completely immortal, And possibly lift up every Norn's morale incredibly by news of the tooth being cracked, to just give up and go home because we said so."

    "Wait, he reacted badly? WHY?"

    I saw Braham's reactions as being quite normal for a Norn. He's A: Never really adventured until joining the commander. B: Always hated his mom for leaving, then later felt smothered in the shadow of her deeds. C: As soon as he reconnected with her, she died. D: Found an artifact that could secure his legacy for all time, and also honor his mother's mission to rid the world of the elder dragons. E: Was promptly told by the commander to F off and come back home, instead of using the artifact. Said commander who promptly after the dragon died and everybody came home, disappeared from his life until the funeral date.

    @DiscordOfSound.2190 said:
    I'm going to chip in on this conversation. First, to put this to rest, if you go through the dialog listed in the wiki through the personal story and interactions with Trahearne, there is 0, ZERO, implication that he accepts or takes credit for victories. At the very least, credit is always centered on the PC, on DE, or the various Pact members involved in sieging Orr. So it is incorrect to assume that Trahearne ever takes the spotlight from the accomplishment of the PC. His role in the matter was to organize the three factions, develop plans of attack with the seated leading parties of each factions, and issue duties. The same as any LT or Commander would do in the US military.

    Think of it this way. You, the PC, are a Command Sergeant Major, an NCO. You personally oversee the rest of the soldiers, and lead them. Trahearne is a Colonel, a CO. That is the hierarchy. He devises plans of attack, does the paperwork, and entrusts YOU with the undertaking of missions. And factoring in that it was critical to have an impartial leader, meaning not from one particular group but having worked with them all in the past, Trahearne was a choice candidate. It's not that he wanted the role, he really didn't, but necessity over ruled and he took the mantle. Not only that, he did harbor some of the most intricate knowledge of Orr, making him the expert in that matter. So you have to ask yourself, would you rather have this turn into Age of Empires with you sending out the troops, or was it better that you personally lead in all the missions?

    I think he takes credit in one case, which was when a risen mesmer had basically discredited him and the commander in some manner. And even then he literally says he's taking credit purely because he has to in order to keep the Pact together.

    trahearne handled the politics and paperwork, and trusted the commander to handle 100% of the field work alongside the Pact.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    my only beef with traherne, now, is he doesnt remember you as a silvari in the main quest converge from the personal one. :/

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I am sorry for Trahearne as well. The studio's treatment of him was bizarre fan service, pandering to a vocal group enraged by his mote of Mary Sue and enraptured by their own plank of Mary Sue. The Trahearne effect likely destroyed the studio's confidence in the PC narrator and increased their willingness to use narrative tricks. Why bother with the difficult process of emergent characterization of Tyria and its people when you can just blow smoke up our butts instead? Spotlight divas have hobbled the writers. Want to experience a NPC's character development first hand by embodying the NPC instead of through exposition? Sorry, that would mean moving the spotlight. Want more than one or two dimensions for an NPC? Sorry, that would mean moving the spotlight.

    The studio deserves criticism of its writing. They covered over Trahearne's death and the hole it left in the Pact with a joke about pushing paper. However, the fact they are willing to feed the Mary Sue beast doesn't change the fact that too many fans are Mary Sue monsters.

    Lol, I once commented back when Silverwastes just came out about something similar. How the comments npcs made felt too much like appeasing "BUT MY SPOTLIGHT AND CREDIT!" whiners.

    Like when Zojjia declares you as the single best fighter of Destiny's Edge + commander.

  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    No it is irrelevant because I’ve no issues with “a boss” character and have said nothing of the sort. See for example the Pact Mentor characters (Forgal, Tybalt and the third one) - perfectly fine characters all of them. The issue is that Tree Jebus shouldn’t have been written like that in the first place.

    Warmaster Forgal Kernnson, Lightbringer Tybalt Leftpaw, and Magister Sieran.
    Just so you know. I also know that i am late for this article.

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  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    Btw, for anyone who isn't familar, Trahearne pre-HoT is not the same as Trahearne post-HoT, and this is why some older players are confused by replies of "but he didn't constantly take the spotlight, and complimented the player often."

    When his voice actor returned for HoT, they had him re-record alot of lines from the Personal Story that removed most of the Mary Sue aspects, and had him defer to the PC, as well as add in additional inspirational speeches towards the troops in general, like after The Battle for Fort Trinity, which used to just be silence and music. As a result, if you haven't played the Personal Story since the restoration update, you experienced a significantly different Trahearne than newer players have.

    They even moved some of his lines to other NPCs. They didn't fix all of it, but they fixed alot of it.

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  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    I played the core story once before HoT and I don't remember too much of it, but I do remember I had no issue with Trahearne even back then.
    The only line change I noticed was the disappearance of "This won't end well".

  • He irritated me in core story. Mostly because he was so whiny and unsure, but he was supposed to be the leader? Great... By Season 2 he was much better.

  • Honestly, the problems with Trahearne are... kinda rooted in the nature of the Sylvari. They've seemingly got (originally) this grand sense of importance and grandness of scale insisted upon. Not that its a bad thing to expand the racial scope beyond just humans like Guild Wars 1 did but something about the worldbuilding for Sylvari has always struck me as... just slightly sue-ish.

  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

    Well... the good part is that he's joined with us, not against us! How would any of you like having to FIGHT Caladbolg AND Trahearne! With Caladbolg's powers plus Trahearnes necromancer abilities, the chances of ANY of you winning is 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001. Especially if you were alone. You'll be Dead! How would you like being dead?

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  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    Trahearne literally lacked a soul in his coconut.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Trahearne literally lacked a soul in his coconut.

    Nope. He just didn't shove it in everyones face.

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

    Question: Have any of you actually looked what Mary Sue is?

    Answer:

    No, you probably didn't.

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  • Veryl.7861Veryl.7861 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    I remember me and my friends making fun of him, generally making fun of everything in the story from lvl 1-80, especially the fight against zhaitan was just too goofy and cheesy for us.

    But now, with the game developing and getting better (imo) looking back Trahearne's death feels kind of bad. Almost like the community killed him, instead of Mordremoth.
    The same goes with Scarlett of course, however, I personally feel Scarlett died a good death.
    Trahearne totally got mutilated. That guy was a firstborn, he belonged to a rare line, and probably was destined for big things. He's big thing however was to get entangled by Mordremoth, consumed and then being forced to sacrifice himself to end the Jungle Dragon.

    Poor guy.

    I guess life teaches us lemons....or consuming tentacles tormenting your mind.
    We all belong in vicious circles of our personalities wether we RP or just roam.
    I hope the lore will stay as powerful as the tears I cried for aurene.

    For Scarlet... I guess she is still somewhere at Fractals so still somewhat annoying and therefor still to our attention
    but don't forget a guy having two things bind together have a very powerful Norn who'd go bald for Eir.

    ~ ▪ ☽ ★ ▪ Y ▪ U ▪ M ▪ I ▪ ★ ☾ ▪ ~

  • It's hard to believe the community wanted him dead. I prefer the core story of the game, everything else feels like a band of teenagers that solve everything because they are so cool and young.