Game balance — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Game balance

Mongk.2467Mongk.2467 Member ✭✭
edited October 4, 2018 in Professions

I am playing this game since 2014 and theres one thing I don't understand.
Did anet talk somewhere about the way they handle balance? Since I started it seems scarce and random, they rarely address to what I see people talking about in the forum or reddit.
Is it intentional? The classes simply dont have an identity in their trait lines... (like the mess that ele traits are)
I mostly play with what I can give support/healing in pve and seeing the state of chrono (meta everywhere) made me afraid of what they can do and how easily they can make my favorite playstyle worth and do nothing trying to "balance" it.

<1

Comments

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2018

    Balance changes seem to be based almost entirely on internal decisions (and are rather random most of the time) unless there's some big public outcry. What is and what isn't currently "meta" as well as the general consenses of the playerbase seem to have little to no impact on their desition making (not that they feel the need to justefy their desitions). A-Net employees are not required to use the official forum / engage with the player base outside of scheduled events iirc so I doubt that most of the feedback even reaches the responsible decision makers (not that they seem to care much otherwise they would have been a lot more active here and we would have something like subforum for suggestions).

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the meta is a curse.
    I tend to have fun making up builds and farming.
    Saves me the frustration of doing a build and it gets nerfed the second I complete the armour set.
    Games are about having fun, not bowing down to a web site that people worship, that stop people joining in or flamed because they aren't 'meta'
    Having a site which shows builds is great - for ideas.
    Not for alienating.

  • Mongk.2467Mongk.2467 Member ✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Fun is subjective mate. Some people find fun in perfection.

    But in this game, this perfection isnt a optional thing.

  • I sometimes wonder if they have written simulators that can automatically run through all the permutations of weapons, sigils, skill, traits, armor, runes, food, etc. to calculate damage, healing, etc. over time in various fight scenarios., and use that to check for obscure but OP combinations that cause something to get nerfed, or conversely, to boost something else that's weak, or to test out new skill or buff or equipment.

    Either that, or the last dev to ragequit after dying repeatedly gets dibs on what to change. :)

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mongk.2467 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Fun is subjective mate. Some people find fun in perfection.

    But in this game, this perfection isnt a optional thing.

    It is. You can run whatever you want and it's fine for most of the content. What you probably mean is that you won't be accepted with "imperfect" build in a party seeking perfection. Which is only normal - perfection is a group effort in a party.

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There is no perfection. If we copy the meta armour piece by armour piece get the runes, the weapon, do the rotations, in a few short weeks a nerf would render that build useless.
    I'd rather have a build I made up, that works, that no one has according to a site.
    Surely the game's not that rigid that only one Build works anyway.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You can run whatever you want and it's fine for most of the content.

    Yeah, if we go by:

    "for most of the content" = "OW"

    and

    "it's fine" = "the 49 man zerg will do the work for you"

    that is.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheAgedGnome.7520 said:
    I sometimes wonder if they have written simulators that can automatically run through all the permutations of weapons, sigils, skill, traits, armor, runes, food, etc. to calculate damage, healing, etc. over time in various fight scenarios., and use that to check for obscure but OP combinations that cause something to get nerfed, or conversely, to boost something else that's weak, or to test out new skill or buff or equipment.

    Either that, or the last dev to ragequit after dying repeatedly gets dibs on what to change. :)

    If the former were true then we wouldn't have historically had so many blatantly broken things like bunker mesmer, release scourge, release gunflame berserker, boonbunker druid... bugged meteor shower, etc. etc.

    Nor so many blatantly weak kits that have no purpose in virtually every area of the game or skills which have no purpose or real use-case outside of very niche circumstances (lower numbers, low reliability, no other value).

    Not to mention a lot of failings to balance for the splits in PvP/WvW/PvE.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You can run whatever you want and it's fine for most of the content.

    Yeah, if we go by:

    "for most of the content" = "OW"

    and

    "it's fine" = "the 49 man zerg will do the work for you"

    that is.

    Yeah, no. I've been on both sides. Occasionally I still do the "imperfect" path - you can even do raids with off-meta builds. You just need to know your stuff and your build needs to make sense. That's all.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As far as I can tell there are two main things happening:

    Anet collecta data through monitoring of game modes. They are aware when something is frequently used and under performing or over performing. The problem is anet does very little to understand why something over or under perform, and thus you see these bizarre and nonsensesical changes all over the place. On top of that, if something does not get used at all anet completely ignores it.

    Then anet has these remake projects, like Mesmer phantasm remake in Feb 2018. These tend to be good but are accompanied by major balance debacles, because there is no testing involved. It is just theory thrown live.

  • Scar.1793Scar.1793 Member ✭✭✭

    It’s really disheartnening to see these small patches every 3 months. You’d think they’d give and fix more stuff within that period but very often things barely truly change. How come Deadeye or more especially Mirage can cheese their way through victory with minimal effort and be left alone for months or even years?

    There’s just no balance or work similar to most pvp games which is extremely dissapointing.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They balance the game primarily around raiding, with what looks like a focus on dps against mostly stationary targets with large hit boxes. When the game first came out, their primary focus on endgame was PvP and WvW; that has no changed, to raids. So most changes seem to come with raiding in mind which completely messes up the balance of PvP and WvW

  • Sorem.9157Sorem.9157 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean, they made three supportish specs last expansion (Firebrand, Renegade and Scourge) and none of them are used for their intended function. Funny cuzz anet never tried to actually address that, they kinda just accepted that even PvE balance is kitten up with mesmer and ranger being mandatory for every comp and the rest just being dps bots.

    Alacrity (Chrono) seriously needs a nerf to open room for other tank/heal builds. Necromancer really needs to have one strong solid single target dps build, since everyone cares so much about sucking every drop possible of dps out of a comp (despite deliverying kitten gameplay and rarely if ever providing good damage numbers) and the idea of carrying a necro into the raids seems absurd because of that.

    Don't get me started with PvP.

    Run before it is too late and this game's good combat actually gets you addicted.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You just need to know your stuff and your build needs to make sense. That's all.

    Things are not as easy as you want to make them out to be, A-Net just isn't doing that good of a job in this regard. There's a difference between something not being meta and something not being viable and there is some stuff were s**t just doesn't work even if you have the right stats and all.

    @otto.5684 said:
    if something does not get used at all anet completely ignores it

    This is very true, A-Net seems to assume that if people don't use X it's because they're not interested in it even though this couldn't be further from the truth. I'd love to have a working version of various skills but that's not gong to happen anytime soon.

    The frustrating part about this is that people constantly tell them exactly where the problems are and how to fix them but they just don't want to listen to community feedback even if a general consensus exist.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    They balance the game primarily around raiding, with what looks like a focus on dps against mostly stationary targets with large hit boxes. When the game first came out, their primary focus on endgame was PvP and WvW; that has no changed, to raids. So most changes seem to come with raiding in mind which completely messes up the balance of PvP and WvW

    ...which is why each patch splits more and more abilities between PvE and PvP.

    And honestly, that’s something they should’ve done from day one. Having abilities work the same in PvE and PvP while trying to balance them for both is an exercise in futility.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • @Sorem.9157 said:
    I mean, they made three supportish specs last expansion (Firebrand, Renegade and Scourge) and none of them are used for their intended function. Funny cuzz anet never tried to actually address that, they kinda just accepted that even PvE balance is kitten up with mesmer and ranger being mandatory for every comp and the rest just being dps bots.

    Alacrity (Chrono) seriously needs a nerf to open room for other tank/heal builds. Necromancer really needs to have one strong solid single target dps build, since everyone cares so much about sucking every drop possible of dps out of a comp (despite deliverying kitten gameplay and rarely if ever providing good damage numbers) and the idea of carrying a necro into the raids seems absurd because of that.

    Don't get me started with PvP.

    Run before it is too late and this game's good combat actually gets you addicted.

    They did that already maybe they need it do more . They reduced alacrity from 33% to 25% and made it a general boon from a class specific. Druid lost some class specific boon and got for that the ability to stack might. I think druids easier to replace then chrono for Tempest there where some suggestion in the board to make him a better replacement for Druid or just strengthen its support role . Firebrand is a good healer in PvP and WvW but its munition system which came in the form of its books makes him suboptimal for PvE

    Back to alacrity they basically built Weaver around this boon alternative the attunement change needs lower CD but I doubt that the only way to create a real alternative is by a new elite spec of another class with the next expansion.

    But in general boons like alacrity and quickness screaming power creep I played once a game where you can stack such effects until a hard limit kicked in reducing a cast time form 5 sec to 0.5 for the mage class this had drastic side effects like boss fights which run usually 30 minutes where done in 2 minutes even in newer content.

    But this power creep seems what they wanted for raids but now its seems they want to turn it back which ...doesn't make sense.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tails.9372 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You just need to know your stuff and your build needs to make sense. That's all.

    Things are not as easy as you want to make them out to be, A-Net just isn't doing that good of a job in this regard. There's a difference between something not being meta and something not being viable and there is some stuff were s**t just doesn't work even if you have the right stats and all.

    You can never have "everything" working. So long as the game offers meaningful gameplay choices, you will be able to make a bad build which "won't work". Hence my remark about your build making sense. Consider the absolute state - all classes are exact copies of one another. Perfectly balanced. And totally boring. It's always a tradeoff between balance and identity in these games.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The worst kind of balance is when they nerf core abilities to bring elite spec capabilities down.
    Weaver does too much damage, let's nerf Meteor Shower and Lava Font. Affects all Elementalist builds not just Weaver
    Deadeye does too much damage, let's nerf Dagger auto. Affects all Thief builds not just Deadeye

    Another mistake of the balance team, nerfing other things while avoiding the real problems:
    For example: ignoring, for a long time, grossly overpowered traits. At least on the PVP forums, Chronophantasma has been outlined as an oppressive trait, but I guess it's really overpowered in PVE too, it makes every single Phantasm trait hit twice. And yet they nerf things here and there but never the actual culprit.
    Another example is how they "balanced" D/D Elementalists back in the day, everyone knew Celestial (and Cleric?) amulets were the problem, yet they had to nerf loads upon loads of D/D Elementalist skills to weaken them. Then, once they finally figured out the actual problem and removed it from the game, they "forgot" to reverse the other nerfs. Typical.

    And let's not forget how they nerf Core specializations to make room for the latest elite ones, like how much they nerfed Acrobatics line to allow Daredevil to shine.
    I wonder core spec they will nerf next to make sure their next elite specs are better.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The worst kind of balance is when they nerf core abilities to bring elite spec capabilities down.
    Weaver does too much damage, let's nerf Meteor Shower and Lava Font. Affects all Elementalist builds not just Weaver

    Well... not really. Let's be honest, what would be the point of Weaver if it wasn't strictly superior in damage output to the other specializations (both core and elite)? It's just even glassier, even more selfish, and even less utility. So why pick it? Of course it needs to stay above, which means you can't just nerf the line, you need to make sure it stays in pretty much the same place relative to its intra-class alternatives. That's assuming it needed to be nerfed in the first place, which it didn't, but that's another story. I don't agree with the changes as a whole, but the means by which they did them (changing staff skills) are actually correct approach.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The worst kind of balance is when they nerf core abilities to bring elite spec capabilities down.
    Weaver does too much damage, let's nerf Meteor Shower and Lava Font. Affects all Elementalist builds not just Weaver

    Well... not really. Let's be honest, what would be the point of Weaver if it wasn't strictly superior in damage output to the other specializations (both core and elite)? It's just even glassier, even more selfish, and even less utility. So why pick it? Of course it needs to stay above, which means you can't just nerf the line, you need to make sure it stays in pretty much the same place relative to its intra-class alternatives. That's assuming it needed to be nerfed in the first place, which it didn't, but that's another story. I don't agree with the changes as a whole, but the means by which they did them (changing staff skills) are actually correct approach.

    It depends on how high the difference in damage between Weaver, Core and Tempest was/is. Allowing Weaver to stay "on top of damage" compared to the other specs is one way to think about it, but the other one is, how high was the dps of Tempest and/or Core builds to get such a reduction in damage? Was it so impossibly high that it needed to be toned down? If the answer is yes then it was a good change, but if the answer is no, then I don't see the damage reduction of staff skills, that are used by all Elementalists, as a good choice. More so when at the same time they didn't give anything else in return to those other builds that were also affected. They only changed some Sword skills to do some more damage, but Sword is only available to Weavers. I'm just not in favor of nerfing something that is used by lots of other builds, to counter one specific build that is over-performing (arguable if it did actually over-perform).

    You will see when the next Elementalist elite spec is released it will be the next king of damage and Weaver will get great nerfs

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think we'll see another dps spec next. Again, because Weaver has nowhere to go if it isn't the go-to damage spec on Ele. Tempest at least can pretend to be a support. My guess is we'll be getting a pvp-oriented spec.

  • Sorem.9157Sorem.9157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    They did that already maybe they need it do more . They reduced alacrity from 33% to 25% and made it a general boon from a class specific. Druid lost some class specific boon and got for that the ability to stack might. I think druids easier to replace then chrono for Tempest there where some suggestion in the board to make him a better replacement for Druid or just strengthen its support role . Firebrand is a good healer in PvP and WvW but its munition system which came in the form of its books makes him suboptimal for PvE

    Back to alacrity they basically built Weaver around this boon alternative the attunement change needs lower CD but I doubt that the only way to create a real alternative is by a new elite spec of another class with the next expansion.

    But in general boons like alacrity and quickness screaming power creep I played once a game where you can stack such effects until a hard limit kicked in reducing a cast time form 5 sec to 0.5 for the mage class this had drastic side effects like boss fights which run usually 30 minutes where done in 2 minutes even in newer content.

    But this power creep seems what they wanted for raids but now its seems they want to turn it back which ...doesn't make sense.

    Well, the idea that trying to address an issue and failing to do so counts as actually addressing the issue isn't going to solve anything.

    I understand that it could be worse and that other games have taken powercreep to a whole new level but it doesn't mean GW2 has to fall under the same traps. That is why i never suggested to provide Alacrity/Insane boon share for all specs that intend to be tanks. Imagine balancing that. It is easier to nuke Alacrity or give the other professions something DIFFERENT that can actually compete with it. Which imo is the wisest solution to avoid angry raid bois upset over chrono nerfs - but requires a lot more thought because any advantage of one mechanic over the other, once the min-max is done by the hardcore players, the meta will be set in stone much like chrono/druid is right now.

    The viability of Firebrand as a healer in PvP is irrelevant here and goes off-topic. What is being discussed is not the profession's viability on the game as a whole but how one spec can dominate over all the others on a specific game mode. I do agree that Firebrand is a solid healer on PvP and stands uncontested but PvP has a lot more roles than PvE does. You can play a roamer, a side-bunker, support, bruiser, etc, and most of those roles have multiple classes that can perform them. Essentially in PvE you're either a tank, a support or a dps, with the first two being dominated by ONE specific profession each.

    As you mentioned weaver, having one class designed with the dependance of a different class is just a stupid idea, there is no other way to put it. Yes, the rotation feels clunky without alacrity/quickness but i am positive that players can adapt to that, as they have with the alacrity 33% to 25% nerf.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    As you mentioned weaver, having one class designed with the dependance of a different class is just a stupid idea, there is no other way to put it. Yes, the rotation feels clunky without alacrity/quickness but i am positive that players can adapt to that, as they have with the alacrity 33% to 25% nerf.

    Oh great, you propose that weaver becomes even more trash.

  • They should've have a beta server, kind of like the BWE weekends they did back in pre-HoT release.

    I have nothing against internal testing, but anyone can see that for years their balance changes has always been a hit and miss. Quite often they nerf/buff a class repeatedly without looking at the core issues, and when they finally hit what made the class OP/UP players are left with a disheveled/ridiculous class that still contain all the missed nerfs/buff. Look at druid in PvP or ele in PvE and on the other hand deadeye or mirage, you'll see what I meant.

    Its almost predictable really. Whenever I see a balance patch I see 50% changes does nothing/doesn't address issues; 20% backtracking whatever split/unsplit they made in the past;15% double whammy and destroys a class completely; 10% God-sent that made a new build/class must have; and 5% actually hitting the right balance (emphasis on balance being viable/meta but not towering others). It took them 2.5-3 years to properly balance HoT specs compare to beginning then soon after PoF introduced we're back to square one.

    Honestly you can't blame players for meming/distrusting internal testing at this stage. All these issues would've been easy to spot if they have a beta-server, where there are more community and dev interaction than just forum posts or internal testing. They don't even have to talk to players really, just getting data from community would've been more reliable than current "internal testing" model.

    [RED] Crimson Sunspears...your small family guild since 2015.

  • Tails.9372Tails.9372 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You can never have "everything" working.

    That's nonsense, you can't have something which does "everything" at once but there's no (sane) reason why something designed to do X shouldn't be able to properly do the one thing it was designed for.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    So long as the game offers meaningful gameplay choices, you will be able to make a bad build which "won't work". Hence my remark about your build making sense.

    But that's beside the point now isn't it? I already told you "even if you have the right stats and all" so it should be clear that I wasn't talking about some weird gimmicky stuff without any real synergy.

  • Sorem.9157Sorem.9157 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    As you mentioned weaver, having one class designed with the dependance of a different class is just a stupid idea, there is no other way to put it. Yes, the rotation feels clunky without alacrity/quickness but i am positive that players can adapt to that, as they have with the alacrity 33% to 25% nerf.

    Oh great, you propose that weaver becomes even more trash.

    Think about the larger spectrum :) Many classes benefit off alacrity. Nerfing chrono isn't a weaver nerf. It is an overall powercreep reduction.

    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE. PvP is not being discussed here and the alacrity changes will have no effect what so ever on weaver there. You're thinking way too much about the effect on the nerfs on just your own class.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

  • Sorem.9157Sorem.9157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

  • Sorem.9157Sorem.9157 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

    Condi sword rotation is a struggle indeed but it also has one of the highest condi bursts according to snowcrows. Power sword is really one of the easiest rotations you can learn these days. With a cost of what? 10~15% of the dps? Id say its a friendly spec to play now.

    The fact that those 5~10% groups would run 3, 4, 5 weavers on almost every boss encounter before the nerf says a lot. Sure if you're unexperienced you're going to struggle but that is NOT a major issue. The major issue is professions such as necromancer which have no hope for achieving a dps that is considered decent these days, doesn't matter how good they are.

    See the difference? If you REALLY want to play as elementalist and are willing to work hard to do so you CAN play on high tier groups. If you want to play necromancer or any other support/tank build, doesn't matter how hard you try, people will not want you.

    Some professions/builds are harder, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be 30% above all the others when mastered like weaver used to be.

  • BadSanta.6527BadSanta.6527 Member ✭✭✭

    Play Mesmer = problem solved

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2018

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

    Condi sword rotation is a struggle indeed but it also has one of the highest condi bursts according to snowcrows. Power sword is really one of the easiest rotations you can learn these days. With a cost of what? 10~15% of the dps? Id say its a friendly spec to play now.

    The fact that those 5~10% groups would run 3, 4, 5 weavers on almost every boss encounter before the nerf says a lot. Sure if you're unexperienced you're going to struggle but that is NOT a major issue. The major issue is professions such as necromancer which have no hope for achieving a dps that is considered decent these days, doesn't matter how good they are.

    See the difference? If you REALLY want to play as elementalist and are willing to work hard to do so you CAN play on high tier groups. If you want to play necromancer or any other support/tank build, doesn't matter how hard you try, people will not want you.

    Some professions/builds are harder, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be 30% above all the others when mastered like weaver used to be.

    Except Teapot plays support scourge and power reaper pretty successfully. So yeah, you can play. In the same tier you can play an ele right now. Because the actual high-tier groups? They'll want you to change to the most efficient dps on a boss-by-boss basis. And that is not going to be ele anywhere but KC. Which is exactly why them stacking weavers in those groups was never an issue. They'll always play what's most efficient. It doesn't matter if it's build X or build Y. It literally makes zero difference, to anyone.

    Besides, that was not the point. You can't balance around "if you REALLY want it, it's doable". That's not how decision-making works. Harder gameplay incurs more risks. Nobody wants to take greater risk for the same result - both on personal and group level. In the end your personal preferences get overruled by wanting to actually play with others and you move on to a build that performs on a same level when you play it half-asleep while browsing your facebook.

    P.S. Power sword is a mess. I don't know who could call this a "friendly spec".

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm biased because I play it. And I see very clearly that the only reason I keep playing weaver I because I like the playstyle. But the performance? Yeah, I perform better on other builds. Despite investing a fraction of the time I have on weaver in learning them, and despite putting much less effort in playing them. And it feels bad. It feels unfair, and unrewarding. It feels like the game is actively trying to stop me from playing my favorite class. You know what else I'd stop playing if I stopped playing ele? GW2.

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I'm biased because I play it. And I see very clearly that the only reason I keep playing weaver I because I like the playstyle. But the performance? Yeah, I perform better on other builds. Despite investing a fraction of the time I have on weaver in learning them, and despite putting much less effort in playing them. And it feels bad. It feels unfair, and unrewarding. It feels like the game is actively trying to stop me from playing my favorite class. You know what else I'd stop playing if I stopped playing ele? GW2.

    Staff weaver needed nerfs, the notion that X class has to do Y damage because Z reasons is a preconceived notion you and most players carry around but doesn't really respond to logic. In edgame content where you have dedicated healers and every boon available in game on demand it hardly matters if you're squishy or not, for example.

    If you're gonna quit, do it, don't make it an argument towards balance. I would personally only consider skill ceiling a worthy variable to take into account aka effort versus reward, weaver still has that considering it dominates leaderboards where it is still used. I would make condi sword better overall.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lunateric.3708 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I'm biased because I play it. And I see very clearly that the only reason I keep playing weaver I because I like the playstyle. But the performance? Yeah, I perform better on other builds. Despite investing a fraction of the time I have on weaver in learning them, and despite putting much less effort in playing them. And it feels bad. It feels unfair, and unrewarding. It feels like the game is actively trying to stop me from playing my favorite class. You know what else I'd stop playing if I stopped playing ele? GW2.

    Staff weaver needed nerfs, the notion that X class has to do Y damage because Z reasons is a preconceived notion you and most players carry around but doesn't really respond to logic. In edgame content where you have dedicated healers and every boon available in game on demand it hardly matters if you're squishy or not, for example.

    If you're gonna quit, do it, don't make it an argument towards balance. I would personally only consider skill ceiling a worthy variable to take into account aka effort versus reward, weaver still has that considering it dominates leaderboards where it is still used. I would make condi sword better overall.

    Where it is still used, meaning on KC? And effort/reward is precisely what is broken with weaver now. Unfavorably.

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Lunateric.3708 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I'm biased because I play it. And I see very clearly that the only reason I keep playing weaver I because I like the playstyle. But the performance? Yeah, I perform better on other builds. Despite investing a fraction of the time I have on weaver in learning them, and despite putting much less effort in playing them. And it feels bad. It feels unfair, and unrewarding. It feels like the game is actively trying to stop me from playing my favorite class. You know what else I'd stop playing if I stopped playing ele? GW2.

    Staff weaver needed nerfs, the notion that X class has to do Y damage because Z reasons is a preconceived notion you and most players carry around but doesn't really respond to logic. In edgame content where you have dedicated healers and every boon available in game on demand it hardly matters if you're squishy or not, for example.

    If you're gonna quit, do it, don't make it an argument towards balance. I would personally only consider skill ceiling a worthy variable to take into account aka effort versus reward, weaver still has that considering it dominates leaderboards where it is still used. I would make condi sword better overall.

    Where it is still used, meaning on KC? And effort/reward is precisely what is broken with weaver now. Unfavorably.

    https://www.snowcrows.com/raids/elementalist/weaver/staff/

    It's meta in 4 different bosses still and good in 4 other, friend.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2018

    @Lunateric.3708 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Lunateric.3708 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    I'm biased because I play it. And I see very clearly that the only reason I keep playing weaver I because I like the playstyle. But the performance? Yeah, I perform better on other builds. Despite investing a fraction of the time I have on weaver in learning them, and despite putting much less effort in playing them. And it feels bad. It feels unfair, and unrewarding. It feels like the game is actively trying to stop me from playing my favorite class. You know what else I'd stop playing if I stopped playing ele? GW2.

    Staff weaver needed nerfs, the notion that X class has to do Y damage because Z reasons is a preconceived notion you and most players carry around but doesn't really respond to logic. In edgame content where you have dedicated healers and every boon available in game on demand it hardly matters if you're squishy or not, for example.

    If you're gonna quit, do it, don't make it an argument towards balance. I would personally only consider skill ceiling a worthy variable to take into account aka effort versus reward, weaver still has that considering it dominates leaderboards where it is still used. I would make condi sword better overall.

    Where it is still used, meaning on KC? And effort/reward is precisely what is broken with weaver now. Unfavorably.

    https://www.snowcrows.com/raids/elementalist/weaver/staff/

    It's meta in 4 different bosses still and good in 4 other, friend.

    Out of the 4 "meta" bosses you'll find other dps builds being also rated "meta" on 3. And they're all easier to play and more consistent. Check raidar. Both DE and Holosmith are used more overall, and for good reason. DH and Mirage are catching up in popularity, and fast. Even Scourge, for all the rants about necro's non-viability, is close in numbers. I tell you, weaver is plain bad now. Yeah, you can do high damage. It's not worth the effort.

  • Sorem.9157Sorem.9157 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

    Condi sword rotation is a struggle indeed but it also has one of the highest condi bursts according to snowcrows. Power sword is really one of the easiest rotations you can learn these days. With a cost of what? 10~15% of the dps? Id say its a friendly spec to play now.

    The fact that those 5~10% groups would run 3, 4, 5 weavers on almost every boss encounter before the nerf says a lot. Sure if you're unexperienced you're going to struggle but that is NOT a major issue. The major issue is professions such as necromancer which have no hope for achieving a dps that is considered decent these days, doesn't matter how good they are.

    See the difference? If you REALLY want to play as elementalist and are willing to work hard to do so you CAN play on high tier groups. If you want to play necromancer or any other support/tank build, doesn't matter how hard you try, people will not want you.

    Some professions/builds are harder, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be 30% above all the others when mastered like weaver used to be.

    Except Teapot plays support scourge and power reaper pretty successfully. So yeah, you can play. In the same tier you can play an ele right now. Because the actual high-tier groups? They'll want you to change to the most efficient dps on a boss-by-boss basis. And that is not going to be ele anywhere but KC. Which is exactly why them stacking weavers in those groups was never an issue. They'll always play what's most efficient. It doesn't matter if it's build X or build Y. It literally makes zero difference, to anyone.

    Besides, that was not the point. You can't balance around "if you REALLY want it, it's doable". That's not how decision-making works. Harder gameplay incurs more risks. Nobody wants to take greater risk for the same result - both on personal and group level. In the end your personal preferences get overruled by wanting to actually play with others and you move on to a build that performs on a same level when you play it half-asleep while browsing your facebook.

    P.S. Power sword is a mess. I don't know who could call this a "friendly spec".

    Yet reaper nor scourge are considered meta in anyway. Teapot has probably a crapload hours on necromancer and still doesn't get a top dps stat when he plays reaper. Do you even know how many times necromancers get kicked from raid squads just for being necromancers? Are you seriously saying weaver is in a worse/just as bad situation as reaper? scourge? herald? scrapper? anything support that isn't chrono/druid?

    If you wanna talk real high end meta you can hop on snowcrows and notice that many many classes are only used for one or two bosses there. Guardian, Revenants and sure, Elementalist come to mind. Does not mean they are not wanted for pug raid groups or even exeperienced ones for that matter.

    And yes, i agree that balancing the game on "if you really want it, it's doable" is a bad idea. There SHOULD be a progression of reward with skill but that is NOT a major issue. So many specializations have so many issues that are more apparent than this that i say the weaver situation is NOT an issue.

    Weaver HAS a good ranged option, beginner friendly decent dps build and a harder build with numbers on par with other specs. IT IS IN A GOOD SPOT. No, it is no longer king of dps like it used to be but that is HEALTHY for the game in general. Might not be for you, but for the community it is.

    This kind of highly-biased comments youre putting here are good example of why ArenaNet can't really trust community feedback on the forums. And honestly, just makes you look spoiled with big dps numbers.

  • Mongk.2467Mongk.2467 Member ✭✭

    I used to play elementalist, but now its a weaver only class. Tempest isnt accepted as DPS and healer only works in like 2 bosses, its really unpleasant.
    Now I am really afraid that they kill druids, because I like healing and I am investing a lot of time on my ranger to do it.
    And as I have seen, druid is almost out.

  • wwDefuser.2056wwDefuser.2056 Member ✭✭
    edited August 17, 2018

    There is actually no plan how to balance the professions on anets side.

    There was a lot of work done after HOT Release until Season 8 or 9 to balance. Then they released POF and deleted all those hours of work they put into balancing.
    After the first or second POF Season they increased Reaper and Warrior-GS dmg by more than 30% ... No half organized Balance team would ever to that.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Also weaver is a fine dps class for PvE.

    Was.

    It WAS overpowered when min maxed, now its on point with other specs when all of its potential is used. Sure it might have a higher learning curve if you insist on playing staff but once you learn it its just as effective. Imho balance should be made with the profession's full potential in mind, not what average joes can do.

    Also there is always the option of going sword, which is much more friendly and now has more/just as much damage.

    It had highest potential. That's not the same as being overpowered. And here's the problem with balancing potentials - it is SO much easier to play virtually any other profession as a dps on a decent level. On ele you put all this extra effort and get nothing in return. High burst? Yeah, slb and holo got that. Cleave? Yeah, holo got that. Range? DE got that.

    This is an awful way to balance. It makes the profession really, REALLY bad for the vast majority of the players. Literally, if you're not top 5-10%, you'll be doing noticeably better on another class. While having a much easier time. It's trash.

    And don't try to sell me sword. Sword is trash as well, for the same reason. It does the same as Mirage, only much harder, and without the options to take moa or feedback.

    Condi sword rotation is a struggle indeed but it also has one of the highest condi bursts according to snowcrows. Power sword is really one of the easiest rotations you can learn these days. With a cost of what? 10~15% of the dps? Id say its a friendly spec to play now.

    The fact that those 5~10% groups would run 3, 4, 5 weavers on almost every boss encounter before the nerf says a lot. Sure if you're unexperienced you're going to struggle but that is NOT a major issue. The major issue is professions such as necromancer which have no hope for achieving a dps that is considered decent these days, doesn't matter how good they are.

    See the difference? If you REALLY want to play as elementalist and are willing to work hard to do so you CAN play on high tier groups. If you want to play necromancer or any other support/tank build, doesn't matter how hard you try, people will not want you.

    Some professions/builds are harder, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be 30% above all the others when mastered like weaver used to be.

    Except Teapot plays support scourge and power reaper pretty successfully. So yeah, you can play. In the same tier you can play an ele right now. Because the actual high-tier groups? They'll want you to change to the most efficient dps on a boss-by-boss basis. And that is not going to be ele anywhere but KC. Which is exactly why them stacking weavers in those groups was never an issue. They'll always play what's most efficient. It doesn't matter if it's build X or build Y. It literally makes zero difference, to anyone.

    Besides, that was not the point. You can't balance around "if you REALLY want it, it's doable". That's not how decision-making works. Harder gameplay incurs more risks. Nobody wants to take greater risk for the same result - both on personal and group level. In the end your personal preferences get overruled by wanting to actually play with others and you move on to a build that performs on a same level when you play it half-asleep while browsing your facebook.

    P.S. Power sword is a mess. I don't know who could call this a "friendly spec".

    Yet reaper nor scourge are considered meta in anyway. Teapot has probably a crapload hours on necromancer and still doesn't get a top dps stat when he plays reaper. Do you even know how many times necromancers get kicked from raid squads just for being necromancers? Are you seriously saying weaver is in a worse/just as bad situation as reaper? scourge? herald? scrapper? anything support that isn't chrono/druid?

    If you wanna talk real high end meta you can hop on snowcrows and notice that many many classes are only used for one or two bosses there. Guardian, Revenants and sure, Elementalist come to mind. Does not mean they are not wanted for pug raid groups or even exeperienced ones for that matter.

    And yes, i agree that balancing the game on "if you really want it, it's doable" is a bad idea. There SHOULD be a progression of reward with skill but that is NOT a major issue. So many specializations have so many issues that are more apparent than this that i say the weaver situation is NOT an issue.

    Weaver HAS a good ranged option, beginner friendly decent dps build and a harder build with numbers on par with other specs. IT IS IN A GOOD SPOT. No, it is no longer king of dps like it used to be but that is HEALTHY for the game in general. Might not be for you, but for the community it is.

    This kind of highly-biased comments youre putting here are good example of why ArenaNet can't really trust community feedback on the forums. And honestly, just makes you look spoiled with big dps numbers.

    Honestly, I don't care how I "look". Numbers back me up. Not numbers from some benchmark, or numbers of bosses where a spec is considered good by a specific guild. Actual usage numbers. Players are dropping weaver en masse. It's not because suddenly they decided they like another class better. It's because weaver became a poor choice. And by the way, there is no beginner-friendly weaver build. The last time ele had anything beginner-friendly was more than an year ago, when d/wh FA tempest was still a thing. And if you think dumbing down the game by making brainless builds the top performance is in any way healthy for the game or the community... well, it seems we'll have to agree to disagree.

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