Conditions and boons are a bit much. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Conditions and boons are a bit much.

In the current iteration of the game, conditions are way oversaturated and boons are far too accessible. For example take Ranger, power can be fun. But if you want stupid strong condi is hands down better. First off there's traps, which of all their skills can save you in a pinch and hit multiples. But on offense they can tear down opposition without struggle. Then there's the pet, condi pets just outperform their power counterparts in both damage and use. Lastly it's important to note that against adds condi always outperforms power since damage can be spread more easily. Though I love them, Necro is just crazy powerful as condi. And this leads me to the problem with saturation of these buffs, it requires mobs of all kinds to have lots of it to challenge players. With break bars already making cc difficult to impossible on some mobs for a average power build. When every Awakened mob not only does cripple and slow conditions sometimes coupled with burning, confusion, and/or weakness it can be a real downer to enjoy content. Especially when the same mob gets Protection, Healing, and Might base. Mobs shouldn't need a spam of boons and conditions to make them challenging, at the same time they shouldn't be a push over. Here's where it gets frustrating though, every expansion seems to start with players getting access to lots of boons and condi that has to reigned in over time. As for the mobs in game that means they are designed for the overpowered professions which means as the balance happens they by proxy get stronger. I've stopped playing several professions for this very reason, I have armor that's the wrong stats and don't feel like wasting a ton of mats on a new set every time they get tweaked. It's no fun constantly changing builds when I already have 20 toons. It seems to me there needs to be a baseline of what is normal, if you need mobs to be harder to kill, I'd prefer they get more health before you go condi and boon crazy with them on such a wide scale.

Just a though on future expansions and content, reign in the conditions and boons so power builds aren't always getting railroaded.

Comments

  • Algreg.3629Algreg.3629 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2018

    I´d rather have more interesting gameplay like boonstripping than more hp spongery. You argument does not hold anyway, as you really want mobs not to increase in difficulty because you would have to adjust your build and possibly equipment. It would not matter how mob difficulty is increased in that regard. You just do not want content to get harder. That's a preference as good as any else. Just don't dance around it.

  • If you are speaking about open world then power will be always better then condi there since mobs will die before your stacks finish ticking.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2018

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    If you are speaking about open world then power will be always better then condi there since mobs will die before your stacks finish ticking.

    As a less experienced player, I find this comment interesting. I mainly concern myself with open world in this game and I'm getting ascended gear for some of my toons as it gives me something to do. I was thinking about my necro to choose between berserker or viper gear. So are you suggesting that I'm better of taking berserker gear then? I mean you also run into events with champions a lot so I suspect that even in open world condition stacking might work well, but as I said, I'm no expert.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Well, it depends. If you fight normal mobs in basicaly all maps (including hot and pof) everything die extremly quicky with power builds. Dps from conditions come from stacking multiple condition skills over each other (you are casting while you already have other skills ticking) and that means you cannot kill that quickly.
    Once you get to mobs that require some time then condi will catch up. If that is the case it depends on potential damage your build can do.

    If you want to play open world and reaper go for power (in raids condi reaper is better then power but diference is minimal and fights longer). If you want to play scourge then i guess go for condi since it will be much better at longer fights. Diference between maximal dps with condi and power scourge is extremly high so power would probably not be worth it.

  • @jbrother.1340 said:
    everyone wants something...

    Why do you feel your views here should supersede others who don't agree or the company who clearly doesn't agree and keeps rolling away from the place you want?

    why not use boon corruption in various ways?

    why is more health a challenge over different degrees of boon and corruptions? Seems like all that is would be more time consuming and the boons and conditions actually present a challenge to be overcome.

    I don't mind the mechanics, it's the actual saturation of these by every mob that becomes the problem. It also means that for some professions each time this happens it takes a lot of tweaking and gear change to get to some semblance of normal. I don't want them without condition or boons, just not soo reliant on them that every mob has lots of them. Bitterfrost had a good ratio of balance when it came to this, even though the veterans have unique abilities the mobs didn't rely on lots of boons or condi to make them challenging. That is what I mean by baseline, less overload and more mechanic based.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    If you are speaking about open world then power will be always better then condi there since mobs will die before your stacks finish ticking.

    As a less experienced player, I find this comment interesting. I mainly concern myself with open world in this game and I'm getting ascended gear for some of my toons as it gives me something to do. I was thinking about my necro to choose between berserker or viper gear. So are you suggesting that I'm better of taking berserker gear then? I mean you also run into events with champions a lot so I suspect that even in open world condition stacking might work well, but as I said, I'm no expert.

    Condi is fine for open world. But power is generally going to be quicker for clearing normal units. Having said that, this may not be an issue for you either way and some builds are simply much stronger with condi than they are with power setups (e.g. mirage, scourge). I doubt anyone is going to make the case that scourge or mirage are "weak" for open world just because they're condi. Either one is more than capable of clearing armies of normal units or taking on champions.

    Condi also has a bit of an advantage in its ability to utilize tankier stats without sacrificing as much damage as power builds. This is because condi relies mainly on 2 stats rather than 3 to increase damage. It is entirely possible to use a set like Trailblazer and deal more than adequate damage with superior passive defenses.

    To give a real example, I just used Trailblazer Mirage to take down the Champion Zintl Inquisitor. This is an HoT HP champion that you fight along with 7 normal units and 1 veteran. Even though my build is very tanky, I was still able to generate more than 9k DPS average and complete the challenge in 1:40, which is important because those adds respawn on about a 2 minute timer. If you take any longer than this, you start having to deal with those respawns!

    Many will tell you that the tanky stats don't help as much as faster kills, but in this case they don't hurt all that much either. There is even a boss or two out there that I have never been able to beat as quickly with a glass build as I can with a tankier setup. The best example of this is the Mushroom Queen HP (another of the HoT HP champions, and the toughest one to beat!). Using my Viper setup I was able to take this boss down in about 2:30, but in practice I don't always survive! Yet using my Trailblazer setup not only can I reliably survive (I did 18 practice attempts on her recently with no deaths while testing some build tweaks), I am able to beat her in under 2 minutes (1:50 best time)!

    My point is that you shouldn't get hung up on only using power builds for open world. It's not as simple as power > condi. It's open world and there is plenty of room to find a build that suits your playstyle without making life harder on yourself.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921 said:

    @jbrother.1340 said:
    everyone wants something...

    Why do you feel your views here should supersede others who don't agree or the company who clearly doesn't agree and keeps rolling away from the place you want?

    why not use boon corruption in various ways?

    why is more health a challenge over different degrees of boon and corruptions? Seems like all that is would be more time consuming and the boons and conditions actually present a challenge to be overcome.

    I don't mind the mechanics, it's the actual saturation of these by every mob that becomes the problem. It also means that for some professions each time this happens it takes a lot of tweaking and gear change to get to some semblance of normal. I don't want them without condition or boons, just not soo reliant on them that every mob has lots of them. Bitterfrost had a good ratio of balance when it came to this, even though the veterans have unique abilities the mobs didn't rely on lots of boons or condi to make them challenging. That is what I mean by baseline, less overload and more mechanic based.

    This doesn't match my experience. Conditions and especially boons are almost a non-issue in open world PvE. Really how many normal units load up on boons? I can't even think of one off the top of my head. I can think of many enemies that utilize conditions, but the few that are capable of applying more than 2 conditions at once don't apply a lot of stacks of damaging conditions the way players do. It sure looks alarming to see your bar loaded down with conditions, but if those conditions are slow, cripple, 1 stack torment, 1 stack bleeding I'm not really sweating it!

  • Leo.5829Leo.5829 Member ✭✭

    @jbrother.1340 said:
    everyone wants something...

    Why do you feel your views here should supersede others who don't agree or the company who clearly doesn't agree and keeps rolling away from the place you want?

    why not use boon corruption in various ways?

    why is more health a challenge over different degrees of boon and corruptions? Seems like all that is would be more time consuming and the boons and conditions actually present a challenge to be overcome.

    Not all professions can strip boons. I found that for my Ranger and my Elementalist some of the Path of Fire mobs are quite a drag without boonstrip. Sure for something like Scourge,Spellbreaker, Mesmer, thief ect it's basicly non existent but for profession without boonstrip not so much. As soon as mechanics that are only avaible to some professions become essential for the basic gameplay; the professions that have not those mechanics are at a disadvantage.

  • JDub.1530JDub.1530 Member ✭✭✭

    Many Awakened gain boons when you attack them from range. I have rarely seen enemy boons play a factor in open world content.

  • Algreg.3629Algreg.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leo.5829 said:

    @jbrother.1340 said:
    everyone wants something...

    Why do you feel your views here should supersede others who don't agree or the company who clearly doesn't agree and keeps rolling away from the place you want?

    why not use boon corruption in various ways?

    why is more health a challenge over different degrees of boon and corruptions? Seems like all that is would be more time consuming and the boons and conditions actually present a challenge to be overcome.

    Not all professions can strip boons. I found that for my Ranger and my Elementalist some of the Path of Fire mobs are quite a drag without boonstrip. Sure for something like Scourge,Spellbreaker, Mesmer, thief ect it's basicly non existent but for profession without boonstrip not so much. As soon as mechanics that are only avaible to some professions become essential for the basic gameplay; the professions that have not those mechanics are at a disadvantage.

    if we are talking normal to veteran enemies, it does not matter a lot. They still just melt with or without boons against any reasonable build.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leo.5829 said:

    @jbrother.1340 said:
    everyone wants something...

    Why do you feel your views here should supersede others who don't agree or the company who clearly doesn't agree and keeps rolling away from the place you want?

    why not use boon corruption in various ways?

    why is more health a challenge over different degrees of boon and corruptions? Seems like all that is would be more time consuming and the boons and conditions actually present a challenge to be overcome.

    Not all professions can strip boons. I found that for my Ranger and my Elementalist some of the Path of Fire mobs are quite a drag without boonstrip. Sure for something like Scourge,Spellbreaker, Mesmer, thief ect it's basicly non existent but for profession without boonstrip not so much. As soon as mechanics that are only avaible to some professions become essential for the basic gameplay; the professions that have not those mechanics are at a disadvantage.

    But isn't that the point of the whole exercise? Having an ecosystem where something can pose a legitimate threat, because you can't immediately face roll it. PvE only players don't want to admit it, but this is the only vector left since the only other option for mob diversity is raw HP ocean + Truck-damage. And we've already beat that meta 10 times over since game launch.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just don't see how boon strip can be called "essential" for open world play. The awakened do have the ability to grant themselves regen, protection, and some might but I can't see how these boons make an otherwise manageable enemy unmanageable. If you have trouble with the awakened with or without boons, that I can understand. But the boons themselves being the source of your issues with the awakened seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Further, the source of their boon generation has a built-in counter. If you don't attack them from range, they don't generate boons.

    As for the condi bomb, I know it can be alarming to see 4 conditions on your bar. However, it's not the number of unique conditions that will kill you, but the number of stacks of damaging conditions. The fact is these guys are not putting out huge amounts of condition damage. They're just able to apply several unique conditions fairly quickly. Don't panic!

    Nothing I've seen in PoF is pressing me to change my build to include boon strip or extra condi cleanse. The same build that works for me in core and HoT works perfectly well in PoF. I see the condi bomb from awakened, but I don't bother cleansing it because 1) I don't have enough condi cleanse to deal with 4 conditions at once and 2) They don't deal enough damage for it to be worth giving up more useful utilities/traits simply for the purpose of cleansing conditions.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't add extra condi cleanse and boon strip to your build if you feel it will help (I often run arcane thievery in my build when I need additional CC, but I really love the chance to use the boon strip, as rare as it is). However, I expect there are other things you could do that would have significantly greater impact. If effects like protection, regen, and weakness are causing you this much trouble the greater problem is that you aren't dealing enough damage to begin with and fights are dragging out too long.

    What's the alternative? If boon strip were essential in PoF open world, then wouldn't most players be running it in their builds? Personal experience tells me that I do just fine with the usual minimal PvE condi cleanse and no boon strip. How can it really be essential?

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