Condi engi hasn't been viable in 4-5 years!

Came across some old Teldo videos from way back and got a bit nostalgic. For those who don't know, Teldo used to be the best engineer on EU in the first year of GW2 PvP and played exclusively condi which was meta at the time.

I completely forgot that this was even a thing eventhough I absolutely adored that build and was my first main. I'm just wondering if anything will be done ever to breath new life into this long forgotten spec.

No condi engi has been viable till before the rework of traits in which they moved IP from explosive. 3 monthes before hot came out if i remember right

Aw, Teldo... Brings back memories. :cry:

A lot of old popular builds aren't viable anymore though. Holosmith is extremely good, though, so at least that's still an option for engis.

Other classic builds that are no longer viable include:

D/D elementalistHambow warriorShout warriorStaff elementalistFresh air elementalistStatic discharge engineer (without holosmith)Flamethrower engineerGrenadier engineerCondi warriorBurn guardianEtc.

I'm not sure if they will ever be viable again though, with all the power creep from the elite specs... It's probably best to just move on to the next best thing. :/

believe it or not I really miss core power necro. those big pewpew numbers always did make me happy.

Weird. I had a blast playing condition scrapper in the time of HoT (platinum division).

@Airdive.2613 said:Weird. I had a blast playing condition scrapper in the time of HoT (platinum division).

Lol, this is true. I played a Condi scrapper in plat during hot too. XD I thought OP was referring to just core condi engi, though, since they mentioned Teldo's builds. I don't know if he made any after heart of thorns came out. :<

I still play it. It's .. really bad.

It's fine for a base-game (2015-ish) power level, but with the current power-creep, it doesn't compete well.

• The damage is lower since the great condi nerf patch. Stacks decreased, durations extended. That's great and is what condi should be, but condi clear is still the same as it was pre-patch, so it's a net nerf. Sure, you might land a 15 second burn on someone, but you're only ever going to get 2-5 seconds of it to tick. Sometimes you don't even get that.
• Given that there is so much condi clear out there, engi doesn't have enough pressure to reapply condi. Most of its condi pressure comes from Blowtorch, on a medium cooldown, but most classes have tons of cleanse on a much shorter cooldown than that, so when you land blowtorch, you have to FRANTICALLY try and apply like 5 cover condi and pray they don't cleanse the burning.
• The skills are difficult to land. Blowtorch requires you to be in melee range, but it glitches out all the time and goes on cooldown if the opponent moves slightly or there's a small elevation difference. Compare that to Holo Shockwave, which hits everything within 600 units in all directions and all elevations, or corona burst or holo autoattack.
• On average, you have to land your burst 3-5 times in order to kill someone. A power build only has to land their burst once.
• Even if you DO land your burst correctly and your opponent has no cleanse, you still have to wait a while for it to tick. In this time, the opponent can cap the point and/or kill you. Thus, you are at an innate disadvantage compared to power. It takes longer to cap points, get kills, and generally do pvp things. This disadvantage used to be made up by having tankier condi gear, but that doesn't exist any more.
• Support classes ruin your day. In addition to most players' REGULAR condi cleanse, you also have support FBs out there doing aoe cleanse. If one of these is on the point, it's even more difficult. Sometimes I can do literally 0 damage to anyone on a point even though I land all my skills and just have to leave and go elsewhere.

It's just so much effort for so little result. Sometimes I have great games with top damage and lots of kills, but I would still be contributing more if I just played holo. Instead of spending 30s-1m to kill someone by hitting them with condi after condi while they cleanse forever, I'd just 1-combo them down in seconds.

I don't know why I bother. I like the playstyle I guess..

Ah yes i remember him. I was very new to the game. Loved playing engi back then. Now i hardly play engi. Doesnt feel like the same class.

@"coro.3176" said:It's just so much effort for so little result. Sometimes I have great games with top damage and lots of kills, but I would still be contributing more if I just played holo. Instead of spending 30s-1m to kill someone by hitting them with condi after condi while they cleanse forever, I'd just 1-combo them down in seconds.

I don't know why I bother. I like the playstyle I guess..

It's one of the few "pure" builds that hasn't been much affected by powercreep. Most other core builds have had powercreep built into them to match the expansions, but core condi engi has not. It stands out as a great point of comparison between "now" and "then," where it was considered meta pre-HoT.

Wasn’t condi engi meta for raids, when they first came out, until slick shoes was nerfed?

Edit: Whoops. Didn’t see this was in the PvP subforum. :(

And probably never will. Same for all condi builds except mirage and scourge.

Good old Teldo, he was indeed a really good condition engineer. While I did enjoy his videos especially Teldo Dailies, my favorite engineer by far was Yishis. Not only was he a great engineer, but his videos are very well made. None of those obnoxious intros or distracting background music that is louder than the commentator, it was just him playing against other players and commentating over it explaining what he does in the fights. So simple, yet so brilliant.

Core engineer doesn't even need a huge rework with the kits. All ArenaNet has to do is change numbers, change certain traits to benefit kits and that's it. The chill duration on Freeze Grenade, the cast time on Box of Nails and the cripple duration, the confusion stacks on Pry Bar, the old block duration on Gear Shield (I don't care what anyone says, this game has been power creeped into oblivion, I don't think an extra second of blocking on a skill that is lackluster compared to other blocking skills isn't going to make that big of a difference), the bleed damage and weakness duration on Tranquilizer Dart and the poison duration on Fumigate.

This is why I hate the Holosmith. All the work that you have to do with core engineer in order to be on par at most with the other professions is just insulting. No wonder Yishis has been gone for more than two years. He probably hates the Holosmith just as much as I do.

Wasn't yishis also the thief who ran daggerstorm in his wvw-videos? who always has been actaully pretty trashy? just got a lot of fanboys somehow because he did youtube-videos

I think Choxie was my favorite to watch just because his videos were funny. He made playing necromancer look so fun, too. I would take watching funny or just fun to watch gameplay videos over chest thumping jerks stroking their own egos and talking smack any day, though, regardless of how skilled they are. :)

@Hoodie.1045 said:

Core engineer doesn't even need a huge rework with the kits. All ArenaNet has to do is change numbers, change certain traits to benefit kits and that's it. The chill duration on Freeze Grenade, the cast time on Box of Nails and the cripple duration, the confusion stacks on Pry Bar, the old block duration on Gear Shield (I don't care what anyone says, this game has been power creeped into oblivion, I don't think an extra second of blocking on a skill that is lackluster compared to other blocking skills isn't going to make that big of a difference), the bleed damage and weakness duration on Tranquilizer Dart and the poison duration on Fumigate.

I thought the reason duration on conditions was nerfed was due to introduction of expertise stat gear. Deadeye, viper and wanderer amulets will give you some of the duration back on those skills. They changed the block from 3 to 2 seconds the same year changed the trait from reducing recharge from 20% to 33%. So lasts 1 second less, but you can use it more often. They even buffed the confusion stacks on pry bar recently and box of nails has 3/4 second cast.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"coro.3176" said:It's just so much effort for so little result. Sometimes I have great games with top damage and lots of kills, but I would still be contributing more if I just played holo. Instead of spending 30s-1m to kill someone by hitting them with condi after condi while they cleanse forever, I'd just 1-combo them down in seconds.

I don't know why I bother. I like the playstyle I guess..

It's much worse now than pre-core specs, not just lack of buffs to keep up with powercreep, but power loss

The Great Condi Nerf Patch really needed to reduce cleanse across the board, but it didn't. If you reduce stacks by 50%, extend duration by 50%, but then don't also nerf cleanse by 50% , you have effectively nerfed condi by 50%.

.. and that is basically what happened to all condi builds (excluding mesmer/scourge/thief).

@Kako.1930 said:Aw, Teldo... Brings back memories. :cry:

A lot of old popular builds aren't viable anymore though. Holosmith is extremely good, though, so at least that's still an option for engis.

Other classic builds that are no longer viable include:

D/D elementalistHambow warriorShout warriorStaff elementalistFresh air elementalistStatic discharge engineer (without holosmith)Flamethrower engineerGrenadier engineerCondi warriorBurn guardianEtc.

I'm not sure if they will ever be viable again though, with all the power creep from the elite specs... It's probably best to just move on to the next best thing. :/

D/D elementalist is still good, just not as braindead as it used to be when celestial and diamond skin was a thing.staff elementalist still works.Fresh air still effective.

the new burn firebrand build going around atm seems broken so not sure what you meant there...

and shout warrior.... I tried to give this another go with the new shout system a few weeks ago, rather effective support and bunker if you take the core version... think ive clocked maybe 40 games on it since and won most of them with soldier runes with the intent of completly shutting out the 2 enemy scourges on the other team.

most of that is unranked fun but the DD ele got me into plat.... so not exactly sure why it isnt viable when those builds still work exceptionally well against 99% of the playerbase or did you mean to say that the builds arent optimal?

@coro.3176 said:The Great Condi Nerf Patch really needed to reduce cleanse across the board, but it didn't. If you reduce stacks by 50%, extend duration by 50%, but then don't also nerf cleanse by 50% , you have effectively nerfed condi by 50%.

.. and that is basically what happened to all condi builds (excluding mesmer/scourge/thief).

The patch was definetly very poorly done, as instead of making conditions a DoT thing like it tried to do, all it did in practice is to make sure condi can never be DoT and can only be played on massive burst builds such as thief mesmer and scourge.

@Tehologist.5841 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

Core engineer doesn't even need a huge rework with the kits. All ArenaNet has to do is change numbers, change certain traits to benefit kits and that's it. The chill duration on Freeze Grenade, the cast time on Box of Nails and the cripple duration, the confusion stacks on Pry Bar, the old block duration on Gear Shield (I don't care what anyone says, this game has been power creeped into oblivion, I don't think an extra second of blocking on a skill that is lackluster compared to other blocking skills isn't going to make that big of a difference), the bleed damage and weakness duration on Tranquilizer Dart and the poison duration on Fumigate.

It is true that they reduced the cast time on Box of Nails from 1 second to 0.75 seconds, but even in its current state it takes so long to use that you might as well not use it when kiting enemies, not to mention the cripple duration is so low that it isn't going to help you get away from enemies or force them to use their condition cleanse just so they can keep up with you like you have to use with other professions like the ranger's off hand dagger 5 Crippling Talon (6 seconds, 1,200 range, 15 seconds cooldown) or the necromancer's scepter 2 Grasping Dead (7 seconds or 10.5 seconds if traited, 900 range, 10 seconds cooldown).

The confusion stacks on Pry Bar is a case of one step forward, two steps back. They increased the confusion stacks from 5 to 6, but they reduced the duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds, greatly reducing the damage on the skill.

Also Gear Shield has a 2 second block with a 13 seconds cooldown, yet ranger's greatsword has a 3 seconds block with a 12 seconds cooldown if traited and can kick enemies if they attack you or it can be used to apply 5 seconds of cripple. See what I mean when I say that engineer's block is lackluster compared to other blocking skills?

@Hoodie.1045 said:The confusion stacks on Pry Bar is a case of one step forward, two steps back. They increased the confusion stacks from 5 to 6, but they reduced the duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds, greatly reducing the damage on the skill.Confusion duration was reduced after its change.Also Gear Shield has a 2 second block with a 13 seconds cooldown, yet ranger's greatsword has a 3 seconds block with a 12 seconds cooldown if traited and can kick enemies if they attack you or it can be used to apply 5 seconds of cripple.Ranger gs block being interrupted for counter at melee range and root him in kick animation making vulnerable.Warrior block cd 25/20s 3s, mesmer shield is 35 and cant be reduced by traits and have only 1 block if didnt block an attack for 1.5sThief drd utility block 20/15s cd is 1.5s block ,should they make it 3 as well ? (just an example)See what I mean when I say that engineer's block is lackluster compared to other blocking skills?Nop

@"Airdive.2613" said:Weird. I had a blast playing condition scrapper in the time of HoT (platinum division).

Yeah I had tons of fun with p/p scrapper during HoT both in PvP and WvW, unfortunetly PoF then took both condi and power and turned it up to 11. All other condi builds was completely brushed aside by scourges and mirages, while power holo eliminated all other engie specs.

At least pre PoF you could say "well your condi builds have other flaws", such as condi reaper (dc bonanza) vs condi scrapper. The reaper didnt have range in shroud whereas the scrapper could keep peppering with pistols while sustaining on alchemy boons. Then in PoF... "kitten you lets see you kill yourself with your filthy boons and forget about kiting, scourge got 100% range and perma cripple".

Pre HoT I mained condi engi (Most ran p/s, however I ran p/p). Even post HoT I mained it for a while (im sure my old build vid is up somewhere on Youtube). I will still run it from time to time in PvP for the lulz.

It's been since June 2015 though, so, 3.25 years since condi engineer viable

see also: condi ranger, condi rev, burn guard, and other builds that rely on trying to do damage with a small number of conditions rather than spamming condi everywhere like scourge/thief/mes