Jump to content
  • Sign Up

You can't design a hybrid class like ele and expect it to work..


Arheundel.6451

Recommended Posts

After 7 years I still ask myself where was the logic behind this decision, why drop the functional , healthy and competitive design of GW1 elementalist in favour of the mess we have now, when you plan a AAA MMO game you don't come out with "innovative" ideas...it makes no sense from a design and economic point of view especially because previously released and successful games tried the same thing and failed miserably...you can't reinvent the wheel .

A hybrid class able to perform a given role as well as a specialist class while having access to abilities the specialised class will never have....why in god's name anybody would use the specialist class at any given point and this sit at the heat of the problem of hybrid class, why they're difficult to implement them and why game companies usually stay away from it.

To make a MMO successful , you need to be sure that specialised classes are usable and wanted, this is where you introduce the biggest base weaknesses of the hybrid class, this is where the stats deficiencies of ele come in and so far so good but...a trope of today MMO is that players like to be self sufficient and that amusingly enough is how Anet designed GW2.

A specialised class can be good at tanking for example with maybe needing heal from other sources to stay alive but...GW2 removed that issue, here the tank can heal himself so there is no need for a healer class or let alone a hybrid class capable of healing , now we have a case where the specialised class has become a hybrid class with none of the inherent weaknesses but all the strengths of a specialised class...the base hybrid class concept is now completely unnecessary, it has huge weaknesses but no advantages over the self-sufficient specialised class.

The GW1 ele was a specialised class and somebody had the "brilliant" idea of designing the GW2 mess as counterpart; the class was manageable because the specialised class were not as hybridised as now with the elite specialisations , there was still some niche spot for eles...now all of that has gone and we're left with what most knew to be from the start...a failed design.

With no hint or hope of a rework in sight, I believe that Anet will simply pushes OP buffs to create vialble gimmicks for a certain period of time before reverting those same buffs to keep the meta game rolling....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your post is well-written, but since you wrote the profession-that-shall-not-be-named in your title, this thread will probably join the other thought out posts that were banished to the profession-specific subforum, where it will also be forgotten. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ArenaNet Staff

@Kako.1930 said:Your post is well-written, but since you wrote the profession-that-shall-not-be-named in your title, this thread will probably join the other thought out posts that were banished to the profession-specific subforum, where it will also be forgotten. :(

We have no bias about the elementalist, nor a will to quiet disquiet about it. However, posts about the elementalist belong in... surprise!... the elementalist subforum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Kako.1930 said:Your post is well-written, but since you wrote the profession-that-shall-not-be-named in your title, this thread will probably join the other thought out posts that were banished to the profession-specific subforum, where it will also be forgotten. :(

We have no bias about the elementalist, nor a will to quiet disquiet about it. However, posts
about
the elementalist belong in... surprise!... the elementalist subforum.

Gaile, I respect you and what you do, as well as the rest of the Arenanet team, but I have to say there is some serious concern about the Elementalist class from the player base.This post may have been placed on the elementalist forum, but there has been no communication with an Arenanet dev (before this) on this subforum since September of 2017.Nobody thinks elementalist is in a healthy state, and I don't think we've ever really been able to engage your team in a conversation about it.Are we just crazy? We want to know from you guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Arheundel.6451 said:The GW1 ele was a specialised class...

I don't know about that. My Mesmer is better than the Elementalist in GW1 in casting elemental spells due to Fast Casting, my Elementalist is better than my Assassin in spiking thanks to Aura of Displacement, for example.

GW1 has no specialization except maybe the Monk. Classes and role in GW1 are all over the place due to the secondary profession.

In other words, GW2 is the best attempt in trying to give each profession their own identity, aka specialization.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Kako.1930 said:Your post is well-written, but since you wrote the profession-that-shall-not-be-named in your title, this thread will probably join the other thought out posts that were banished to the profession-specific subforum, where it will also be forgotten. :(

We have no bias about the elementalist, nor a will to quiet disquiet about it. However, posts
about
the elementalist belong in... surprise!... the elementalist subforum.

Thank you for posting on the ele forms kind of but you must know that no dev has posted here in a year + so you must forgive every one thinking that these are being read at all. For most ppl this is where threats die and has the over all feeling that its an echo chamber that is forced on the ele player base. I want to post about how ele plays in wvw and why i think there are problems with it being op and up at the same time but i cant as my peers are wvw players not ele players.

Any way to the point of this i guess spvp (i only know wvw so a bit confusing but it still pvp) ele is a hybrid class for older gw2 or gw2 back in 2012 when support was a boon and fields where the end all be all healing effects in the game. As well as 3 sec of chill was the strongest soft cc in the game. Due to power creep and the lack of updating old effects and tools ele has lost its roll of support and the only way to play real support is to stack gear with healing power.

A lot of what ele use to have for a hybrid class was base off of every one having higher base crit dmg as well. So ele could hit hard even with out stacking all in dmg gear but as time went on things got re-shifted (from players to gear) so the only classes who could do viable dmg where the all in classes.

And lets talk about hybrids classes in this game all classes where made with the ideal of being hybrid classes ever one can heal every one can dmg every one can support etc.. its only that other classes have had there skills updated to fit in the current time.

All and all ele is balanced for 2012 more so then 2018. That and its pointless to be balanced as a hybrid class when every other class in the game are hybrid in all but balancing lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ever stop to think that specialized classes are a date concept, that still largely exist to force interdependence in spite of the game's ability to unshackle players?

Players are really good at figuring out things when motivated. But this continued emphasis on Trinity design (which only really became a thing with MMOs) against AI, is a lot closer to the real root of these issues then Multi-classing. Combat flexibility allows players to adapt to a situation, focusing on resource efficiency within buildcraft. But a trinity design is rigid, and purposefully built to have multiple single points of failure.... something thats easy to put pressure on, and cause a group comp to collapse. Ele exemplifies why this system is so much better. And when looking at the other classes that have the more single focus approach (see Ranger, Necro, Rev) are by far the hardest classes to make sure of without overcompensating heavily in their narrow areas of strength.

If any area of the game failed, its PvE's ancient design premise comprised mostly of enemies with no intelligence, and only sometimes reactive to their situation. The Mobs most people complain about are usually ones that move around a lot, evade attacks, and/or utilize CCs to disrupt the player..... things you'd see in a PvP environment.... the kind of thing the Skills were initially balanced around. But what good is suppressing a target if you can't also kill it? Hence our problem with a DPS obsessed meta in all areas of the game. If we have to trade too much damage to do something, it ultimately causes whatever we're doing to not matter, since things are not dying. When looking for the most efficient path to a win, if we can cut out all the other game mechanics simply by having overwhelming DPS, what do you think people will favor?

If you want to have a productive discussion, you have to more insight then simply pointing to something else and going "we should had been that", and not understand the reasons why it functioned that way. Thats the kind of the mind set that got us 2 Console generations of COD clones, 10 Years of WoW clones, and now drives the Battle Royal trend; Where games which bullet point by bullet point are reasonably accurate copies of another game on paper, yet fail to achieve even an ounce of the front runner's success.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"starlinvf.1358" said:Ever stop to think that specialized classes are a date concept, that still largely exist to force interdependence in spite of the game's ability to unshackle players?

Players are really good at figuring out things when motivated. But this continued emphasis on Trinity design (which only really became a thing with MMOs) against AI, is a lot closer to the real root of these issues then Multi-classing. Combat flexibility allows players to adapt to a situation, focusing on resource efficiency within buildcraft. But a trinity design is rigid, and purposefully built to have multiple single points of failure.... something thats easy to put pressure on, and cause a group comp to collapse. Ele exemplifies why this system is so much better. And when looking at the other classes that have the more single focus approach (see Ranger, Necro, Rev) are by far the hardest classes to make sure of without overcompensating heavily in their narrow areas of strength.

If any area of the game failed, its PvE's ancient design premise comprised mostly of enemies with no intelligence, and only sometimes reactive to their situation. The Mobs most people complain about are usually ones that move around a lot, evade attacks, and/or utilize CCs to disrupt the player..... things you'd see in a PvP environment.... the kind of thing the Skills were initially balanced around. But what good is suppressing a target if you can't also kill it? Hence our problem with a DPS obsessed meta in all areas of the game. If we have to trade too much damage to do something, it ultimately causes whatever we're doing to not matter, since things are not dying. When looking for the most efficient path to a win, if we can cut out all the other game mechanics simply by having overwhelming DPS, what do you think people will favor?

If you want to have a productive discussion, you have to more insight then simply pointing to something else and going "we should had been that", and not understand the reasons why it functioned that way. Thats the kind of the mind set that got us 2 Console generations of COD clones, 10 Years of WoW clones, and now drives the Battle Royal trend; Where games which bullet point by bullet point are reasonably accurate copies of another game on paper, yet fail to achieve even an ounce of the front runner's success.

Innovation for the sake of innovation leads to nowhere but blunders and regrets, most times than not a trusted formula is the best one over and experimental one....you can inset "innovations" while maintaining same base principles , you cannot reinvent the wheel no matter how hard you try.

Who the hell care if GW2 ele break the mould? It doesn't bloody work! Base hybrid design does not work well if at all in a MMO these days and don't take my word for granted, there are many indie developer platforms all over the internet, go and ask them how they feel about the whole hybrid design concept, try GAMASUTRA

And I am sick tired of this whiteknighting because people have been telling them all of this, way before the game would be even launched and the devs were the ones insisting all would have been fine as they knew what they were doing, the whole GW1 ele playerbase was concerned and we joined both AMA in 2012...all we got were arrogant assumptions and I could make names but that would lead to usual warnings or worst

Then they come later saying :" oh it's so hard to balance ele, they do so much dmg with overloads", this is a literal statement from one dev during an AMA few years back, the same guy in 2012 said ele would have been fine with 20 skills..well guess what?! He was wrong! Now he comes like the playerbase designed the elementalist!

Now all white knights come in Anet defense, they wonder why ele players are frustrated...well it's because we spent thousand of hours on the class, we went through all the crap during these years, an awful start - being forced into a bunker role since start - spent a whole year in unplayable state where you'd be kicked for being an ele- now again back to the crap hole ...oh wait we've always been in the crap hole only majority of people were blinded by all the glitter coming from the bunker specs.

Already explained why ele was manageable up to Hot Launch, "manageable" not actually good, the class has always been relying on gimmicks to remain competitive and now those gimmicks are not enough anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Arheundel.6451" said:The GW1 ele was a specialised class and somebody had the "brilliant" idea of designing the GW2 mess as counterpart; the class was manageable because the specialised class were not as hybridised as now with the elite specialisations , there was still some niche spot for eles...now all of that has gone and we're left with what most knew to be from the start...a failed design.

Let's not pretend that Ele was in a good state in GW1 either. Especially in PVE where to this day there are no meta builds for Elementalists (lol) and they have been neglected for as long as I can remember. Until they "fixed" the armor of Hard Mode mobs Elementalists were worthless and even after it their "usefulness" is for some niche farming builds, or playing an Infuse protector.In PVP Elementalist was better in GW1, but what's hilarious is that they mostly use Core skills.

Bleh, the Arenanet balance team was terrible at balancing Elementalists since the beginning of Guild Wars 1 and they still can't balance the profession properly 14 years later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would they read any class forums? The majority is meaningless spam because grasping balance is a difficult thing. Since we're all about being nice and respecting everyone's opinions no matter how wrong or irrelevant; it's no suprise even the devs don't bother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Etheri.5406 said:Why would they read any class forums? The majority is meaningless spam because grasping balance is a difficult thing. Since we're all about being nice and respecting everyone's opinions no matter how wrong or irrelevant; it's no suprise even the devs don't bother.

Your whole argument is based on what exactly?...Yeah the attitude is there..but the facts to back up your blah blah blah are not there..along with any resemblance of working ele build in pvp, come back with actual evidence...and this time do remember to dismantle from your horse

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Etheri.5406" said:Ele was overnerfed slightly. It isn't dysfunctional in design.

It is pretty dysfunctional when a slight overnerf suddenly results in the class being bad in multiple game modes. That indicates that the foundation is not stable and that the entire class is carried by very specific gimmicks. Even if the DPS of ele becomes competitive again, it still won't make it good in other areas like PvP. The problems lie pretty deeply in the class design.

The OP does bring up some good points, but the message becomes a bit confusing when elementalist is being referred to as a "hybrid" class. All classes are hybrids, it's just that most of them do everything better. The reason why elementalist is bad is because it is forced to specialize more compared to the others whenever it has to compete. You either go full damage with by far the worst defense in the game, or you go full bunker. There is no good middle ground. This used to be rewarded with more damage, since you obviously had to sacrifice more to get it, but this is no longer the case. ArenaNet are set on having the DPS numbers of classes being roughly the same at the moment, which means that we cannot return to having 5k more DPS than everyone else. If we cannot return to that point then elementalist needs a lot of work to get to the level of other classes, because sacrificing everything for the same offensive power as other classes is not balance by any stretch of the imagination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The nerf had next to no impact on its PvP viability.The nerf has little impact on its WvW viability. Impacted, definitely, but not enough to push it out of the meta off this nerf.

So > @Ganathar.4956 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:Ele was overnerfed slightly. It isn't dysfunctional in design.

It is pretty dysfunctional when a slight overnerf suddenly results in the class being bad in multiple game modes. That indicates that the foundation is not stable and that the entire class is carried by very specific gimmicks. Even if the DPS of ele becomes competitive again, it still won't make it good in other areas like PvP. The problems lie pretty deeply in the class design.

What are you on about. You think this nerf is what pushed weaver out of the PvP meta? Oh wait no.It definitely hurt WvW staff weaver - but to a point of no longer being viable? Nah.

So the truth is, weaver's status in pvp and wvw hasn't changed that much. The PVE overreactions tho, those are everywhere.

The OP does bring up some good points, but the message becomes a bit confusing when elementalist is being referred to as a "hybrid" class. All classes are hybrids, it's just that most of them do everything better. The reason why elementalist is bad is because it is forced to specialize more compared to the others whenever it has to compete. You either go full damage with by far the worst defense in the game, or you go full bunker.

Have you played staff ele in WvW? In my book it has amazing active defenses and mobility. We had functional support specs in WvW and PvP and functional hybrid specs in both, too.

Ele has access to AMAZING active defenses, amazing active DPS boosts, passive DPS boosts, passive defenses, active defenzes and damage modifiers, just not all of them at the same time. There's a lot of issues with ele / weaver but it's hybrid design isn't that. Besides, if we go from that being dysfunctional design then you can throw out mesmer, necro, engi and ranger too.

So tell me again how "this nerf" pushed weaver out of viability everywhere?

There is no good middle ground. This used to be rewarded with more damage, since you obviously had to sacrifice more to get it, but this is no longer the case. ArenaNet are set on having the DPS numbers of classes being roughly the same at the moment, which means that we cannot return to having 5k more DPS than everyone else. If we cannot return to that point then elementalist needs a lot of work to get to the level of other classes, because sacrificing everything for the same offensive power as other classes is not balance by any stretch of the imagination.

Right, PVP and WvW are just here to spice up the PVE narrative. Can we rename the thread to "we're angry about eles dps in PvE right now". I'm sure anet is aware, and hopefully will be capable of fixing it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is why threads that are posted in the pvp forums need to stay there... People are confused and responding with posts about wvw and pve...

This thread isn't about mindless blobbing in wvw or hitting inanimate objects in pve, it's about competing with other competent players in a small-scale PvP environment where you need to pull your own weight because a blob won't carry you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Etheri.5406 said:The nerf had next to no impact on its PvP viability.The nerf has little impact on its WvW viability. Impacted, definitely, but not enough to push it out of the meta off this nerf.

So > @Ganathar.4956 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:Ele was overnerfed slightly. It isn't dysfunctional in design.

It is pretty dysfunctional when a slight overnerf suddenly results in the class being bad in multiple game modes. That indicates that the foundation is not stable and that the entire class is carried by very specific gimmicks. Even if the DPS of ele becomes competitive again, it still won't make it good in other areas like PvP. The problems lie pretty deeply in the class design.

What are you on about. You think this nerf is what pushed weaver out of the PvP meta? Oh wait no.It definitely hurt WvW staff weaver - but to a point of no longer being viable? Nah.

So the truth is, weaver's status in pvp and wvw hasn't changed that much. The PVE overreactions tho, those are everywhere.

The OP does bring up some good points, but the message becomes a bit confusing when elementalist is being referred to as a "hybrid" class. All classes are hybrids, it's just that most of them do everything better. The reason why elementalist is bad is because it is
forced
to specialize more compared to the others whenever it has to compete. You either go full damage with by far the worst defense in the game, or you go full bunker.

Have you played staff ele in WvW? In my book it has amazing active defenses and mobility. We had functional support specs in WvW and PvP and functional hybrid specs in both, too.

Ele has access to AMAZING active defenses, amazing active DPS boosts, passive DPS boosts, passive defenses, active defenzes and damage modifiers, just not all of them at the same time. There's a lot of issues with ele / weaver but it's hybrid design isn't that. Besides, if we go from that being dysfunctional design then you can throw out mesmer, necro, engi and ranger too.

So tell me again how "this nerf" pushed weaver out of viability everywhere?

There is no good middle ground. This used to be rewarded with more damage, since you obviously had to sacrifice more to get it, but this is no longer the case. ArenaNet are set on having the DPS numbers of classes being roughly the same at the moment, which means that we cannot return to having 5k more DPS than everyone else. If we cannot return to that point then elementalist needs a lot of work to get to the level of other classes, because sacrificing everything for the same offensive power as other classes is not balance by any stretch of the imagination.

Right, PVP and WvW are just here to spice up the PVE narrative. Can we rename the thread to "we're angry about eles dps in PvE right now". I'm sure anet is aware, and hopefully will be capable of fixing it.

Maybe I was over-reaching by saying that it was only this nerf that made the class unviable in several game modes. It would be more accurate to say that killing this class' DPS role in raids made it obvious that it wasn't as powerful as many players liked to pretend. So it suddenly seems as if elementalist took a major dive, while it has been in a pretty shaky position for a while now.

Fixing PvE Dps will not fix the fatal flaws of the class though. PvP will never get better as long as those issues are ignored because it has "good DPS". Staff in WvW is less useful than it used to be. Yes, it may not be unviable but it's not meta either. And the class having amazing defenses and mobility is a joke, just look at other classes please. Look at warrior, mesmer, thief, engineer. That's where you will find real defenses and mobility. In WvW zergs ele can get just enough defense to make it, because the zerg is helping. However, as soon as you try to build for anything but zergs the class falls apart. Because most of the defenses that are needed when you are alone are gated by water and arcane, while you also need tons of healing power, and you also need to pad up your low base health with vitality. Also I implied that ele is not that much of a hybrid when compared to other classes, maybe you should try to understand the part of my post where I said that it's forced to specialize more than other classes. I just cannot see how Anet can solve these problems without reworking something. These are fundamentals of the core class.

Edit: Ele may have had functional support and hybrid specs at some point, but we are no longer there. Other supports are flat out better now, though it may be possible to make tempest good with a few tweaks. I can't see hybrid being possible anymore because water healing skills were nerfed so they could scale more with healing power in HoT. Other classes also got power crept in several aspects and became really good at being hybrids. A huge increase in boon generation really helped other classes in this regard, and boon generation used to be one of Ele's specialties that helped cover its weaknesses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gaile Gray.6029 said:

@Kako.1930 said:Your post is well-written, but since you wrote the profession-that-shall-not-be-named in your title, this thread will probably join the other thought out posts that were banished to the profession-specific subforum, where it will also be forgotten. :(

We have no bias about the elementalist, nor a will to quiet disquiet about it. However, posts
about
the elementalist belong in... surprise!... the elementalist subforum.

Well, on the bright side, we can rule out that Anet is not reading/seeing these posts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Quasar.1756 said:

@"Kako.1930" said:Your post is well-written, but since you wrote the profession-that-shall-not-be-named in your title, this thread will probably join the other thought out posts that were banished to the profession-specific subforum, where it will also be forgotten. :(

We have no bias about the elementalist, nor a will to quiet disquiet about it. However, posts
about
the elementalist belong in... surprise!... the elementalist subforum.

Well, on the bright side, we can rule out that Anet is not reading/seeing these posts.

At least Gaile is reading them, but I'm not sure if that does any good. Does the balance team get any of this information? And if they do, do they take it seriously at all? If they buff ele it will be all because of metrics and websites like metabattle I think. "Luckily" ele is the worst class in metabattle right now, so they must be planning some sort of buffs, right? But I am so cynical at this point that I think that it will take them ages to do anything substantial.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Quasar.1756 said:

@Kako.1930 said:Your post is well-written, but since you wrote the profession-that-shall-not-be-named in your title, this thread will probably join the other thought out posts that were banished to the profession-specific subforum, where it will also be forgotten. :(

We have no bias about the elementalist, nor a will to quiet disquiet about it. However, posts
about
the elementalist belong in... surprise!... the elementalist subforum.

Well, on the bright side, we can rule out that Anet is not reading/seeing these posts.

They're being seen on the other forums (PvP, general discussion, etc.) Then quickly being thrown in here to die. They're not actually reading anything after it reaches the ele subforum lol. It's out of sight, out of mind here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:Ele was overnerfed slightly. It isn't dysfunctional in design.

It is pretty dysfunctional when a slight overnerf suddenly results in the class being bad in multiple game modes. That indicates that the foundation is not stable and that the entire class is carried by very specific gimmicks. Even if the DPS of ele becomes competitive again, it still won't make it good in other areas like PvP. The problems lie pretty deeply in the class design.

The OP does bring up some good points, but the message becomes a bit confusing when elementalist is being referred to as a "hybrid" class. All classes are hybrids, it's just that most of them do everything better. The reason why elementalist is bad is because it is
forced
to specialize more compared to the others whenever it has to compete. You either go full damage with by far the worst defense in the game, or you go full bunker. There is no good middle ground. This used to be rewarded with more damage, since you obviously had to sacrifice more to get it, but this is no longer the case. ArenaNet are set on having the DPS numbers of classes being roughly the same at the moment, which means that we cannot return to having 5k more DPS than everyone else. If we cannot return to that point then elementalist needs a lot of work to get to the level of other classes, because sacrificing everything for the same offensive power as other classes is not balance by any stretch of the imagination.

Agreed. In PvP, Ele went from OMEGALUL OP to trash tier with a simple amulet nerf. It's been like that — hot and cold — since I can remember. Enough to make me abandon my elementalist out of frustration, when it was my favorite class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Turk.5460" said:Why is it that on every profession subforum (except mesmer) there is usually a "My profession is the worst, why does ANET hate us?" post? If all professions are the worst, wouldn't that mean no profession is? Which subforum is lying!?

Since this is a PvP thread that was just tossed here out of negligence, it's sort of playing off of the poll titled "Current most useless profession?" that was posted there in which ele was voted hands-down the worst of the worst, not just by the ele community.

Link: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/51552/poll-current-most-useless-profession#latest

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Turk.5460" said:Why is it that on every profession subforum (except mesmer) there is usually a "My profession is the worst, why does ANET hate us?" post? If all professions are the worst, wouldn't that mean no profession is? Which subforum is lying!?

On other sub forms devs post they even post about bugs ele sub forms are a complete waist land of ideals with no feed back from the devs at all. At least the dev post about thf on the thf sub forms about bugs even major updates eles can only dream of such things. Its to the point where there dose not seem to be an ele dev at all. As if anet as comply forgotten about the class and put it in zomby mood like gw1 only updating numbers to make it seems like it fits in the game or to push ppl away from playing it at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...