Concerns about Elementalist - Page 11 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Concerns about Elementalist

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  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    salty comment retracted

    | Solemn [PAL][shrd][wHo][DoM][BOZ] |
    | YouTube Wrath of God Staff Weaver |
    | Anvil Rock (main) | Crystal Desert (alt)

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2018

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    nobody cares about weaver dps when minstrel fbs and chronos can literally stand inside meteor showers and emote as long as their boons dont get removed by scourges/spellbreakers. weavers are useless without the help of various other meta classes.

    Then you're casting your meteors on wrong targets. You have no business in damaging tanks when your biggest nuke has DR on it. Meteors still hits squishier targets quite hard and those are the enemy damage dealers; remove pressure and enemy supports have nothing to support.

    Supports are useless without damage dealers. Damage output is useless when enemy still rolls over you (there's no boon rip/corrupt/cc). Necros are useless without proper support. It's all team play, no class can work on their own in a wvw blob.

    Staff weaver performs perfectly fine in big zergs, the issue is that lots of skills are worthless/too slow and its main pressure comes from 1 or 2 skills. It makes sense on hammer rev since it doesn't have many dps skills, but ele has like 10-15 of them. The issue is that it's forced into semi support (any water skills, whose heal is quite low on dps builds) in every build so it sustain has to be awful to compensate. The issue is that despite having 95% of damage output from only 3 fire skills, you still need to swap attunements for CC, while almost completely losing damage output (due to damaging skills being unreliable) - with ~15 skills across 4 attunements you're basically doing the same thing rev does with 4 on just 1 weapon. The issue is that self boon sustain is weak/non existing. The issue is that good condi cleanse comes with huge loss in damage (water/arc traits) and/or loss in self sustain (ether renewal is both channel and weak heal; cleansing fire's offensive part has no use, but you're essentially losing a defensive utility skill).

    Winds nerf didn't impact eles negatively, it made all ranged builds better since there's a lot less projectile hate now. Dome wasnt stipping boons after 5 seconds anyway, it was mostly a zone control at that point, which is gone now.

    I'd rather have meteor shower on shorter cooldown, channel time, duration, less hits, but with weapon skills that are more responsive and execute faster instead of waiting 24 seconds to press 5 and run around trying to squeeze 10% of meteors' damage output with my whole kit and pretending I support allies (at least CC is great).

    @certain people in this thread: There's balance issues and l2p issues, don't mistake one for another. Ele is not really designed for spamming 5 buttons off cd like all other classes, so don't treat it like it's made as such. It's supposed to have high effort/reward ratio, but you make it sound like you want reward for no effort by complaining how weak ele is.

    yeah because scourges and firebrands are perfectly balanced where one just has to put down a shade and spam all F keys and wells, and nobody -- from fbs/chronos to squishies including eles can just face tank it, while as fb you just afk until they happened to get your boons removed then you spam utilities skills and pull out your broken tomes.

    keep preaching l2p when the """"learning"""" part is basically you not following the tag and camping at the sides hoping nobody sees and have your zerg do all the work of:
    1. drawing enemy's attention away from you
    2. removing boons for you
    3. buffing you with stability/fury/might/quickness/barriers
    4. ccing enemies for you
    5. removing chill & weakness from you

    no other classes are that reliant on the team and being able to sit in a highly telegraphed, long channeled, high cd skill and barely take a scratch no matter which target or build is quite kitten in my opinion

    After latest patch you don't even need to be part of squad to be effective. You get your own might and fury, it's just a lot slower without rev (who gets permanent boons with no effort). It's not main zerg who's drawing enemy's attention, it's ranged zerg who's damaging and zoning enemy. You're not even in range of enemy boon rips, if you're getting corrupted you're playing backline wrong. While I agree that quickness does make meteor shower a lot more effective, you can get healed from just walking through melee squad; you have your own defensive skills and stability (which you really only need for safe meteor). Chill/weakness is problem of every backline build, not just ele (those traits are quite ridiculous actually; cc reflect, taunt and weakness procs really need to go, or at least have range cap).

    Ele (and shiro rev) is barely reliant on team, that's why it's capable of clouding around enemy with almost no problem. Try doing that on necro and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you can survive retaliation, you don't need your team to babysit you at all.

    That's your opinion, and my opinion is the reverse. There's no way you can get meaningful fury/might/stab yourself unless you sacrifice your defense/offense or exchange one of those boons for the other. The fury from Raging Storm trait is not even real because it requires a critc in the first place and only lasts 2s on a 3s icd. Air trait line is also quite trash compared to Arcane in my opinion because you miss out crucial cd reduction for your attunments, perma swiftness, and need to camp air to be able to move anywhere, but it's still probably personal preference (and no, I'm not wasting time doing the switch build thing just to move around and then switch back every time). The best fury you can get from standard dps staff weaver is from either Unravel or blasting your fire fields with Persisting Flames. Taking Unravel means giving up either mist form or lightning flash and you're that much easier to get caught and die without these 2. The easy 10+ stacks of might from Pyromancer's is just that much better than Persisting Flames it's really not even an option. Having stability for safe MS is quite useful when zergs are constantly moving and there are a lot more opportunities to cast it when you do have it, especially when defending against enemy siege, otherwise it's really just hoping for your zerg to distract enemy's zerg for you again until you can actually use your MS.

    Stay near revs before fights so you get boons. Walk near tag when you get low on hp/boons.

    Necros can poke with their 1200 ranged staff & 900 ranged skills quite well, and they have their own spammable condi clears and barriers to poke if they wanted. Plus, chills & weakness don't affect them as much as it does to power weavers. In fact, no other specialization in the entire game, including core ele and tempest, gets countered by chill as hard as weaver does because that's just how weavers work -- they need to constantly switch attunement to be effective but they also get locked out of all attunements whenever they switch (also why alacrity is so much more effective on weavers). If I see some staff weavers running around by themselves trying to harass our zerg as necro, all I have to do is spam my marks, especially chill & fear on them. There's no way they can channel their meteor shower without getting hit by my shades unless they do the lightning flash/burning retreat trick, and the telegraph of meteor shower is so huge and slow anyways all i have to do is walk out of it and maybe dodge/barrier once to take no damage.

    Their 1200 poke barely does damage, it's mostly used for cc, condi spam or condi transfer. If you walk to them then you're basically dead since other 1200 range classes are much more effective at zoning than necro. You dont play range wars with 1 ele, you do it with 5-15 builds with 1200+ range so gl doing something vs them as necro.

    The only downside I felt when playing necros is their incredibly slow movement because they don't generally have access to perma swiftness and less stunbreaks compared to weavers so it's that much easier for me to get chain cced and killed, but really these 2 issues don't matter as much considering that it's mostly solved by actually being with the tag. I'd also gladly make this trade to be able to just spam skills regardless of targets and still do actual pressure, or play the blood variant where i get to not only play as support that has powerful barriers and incredible rez for my zerg but also still pressure the enemy because boon removal is just so useful.

    And ele issues are solved by being near revenant. Easy 10 might and perma swift/fury, you have your own defenses anyway. You cant stun lock ele due to stability and evade on stun breaks and they can always mist form behind the tag. Basically your only issue is lack of heals, but again, you walk near tag/out of combat and continue what you were doing before.

    Every time I play ele in both WvW and sPvP it's really just me feeling like I'm getting carried by my team the entire time. I could care less about some artificial numbers on a 3rd party tool that's inflated from hitting downs most of the time, and these downs are even usually generated with the help of the team. Ele is just neither a play maker nor a true team support to me but instead some class that begs for its team to do all the work so it can look at some big numbers and feel like it's doing something.

    In small scale I agree: glass cannon builds dont have high enough burst to compensate for their low mobility/sustain and bruiser builds just dont have damage pressure to handle enemies. But in large scale eles and warrs are what makes plays happen. Warr is the obvious reason due to bubble/boon rip, but ele is often underrated and probably not played properly to its full potential. When you get a ranged squad of 10-15 (mostly revs and eles, but rangers can be quite deadly as well with their 10k autos and unblockable bursts) you can easily control where enemy blob moves with constant meteor spam and they cant do anything against you since you are mobile and have more range than them (unless enemy also has a strong ranged force). In that situation you're the playmaker since it takes only 3-5 good meteors on top of corrupts/bubbles to wipe wipe enemy blob (even if enemy has stronger melee blob that would wipe yours, you have much better ranged damage; I had a blob once with 30 necros and 2 eles that couldnt wipe anything despite having lots of currupts - the damage just wasnt there). I agree that damage is worthless without boon removal and CC, but boon removal/cc are pointless if you have 0 damage pressure, and necros for example have quite lower damage potential than eles/revs.

    There needs to be balance between all these roles in wvw and that balance exists at the moment. The problem is that certain classes have much more roles than other ones and ele's role is based on rng.

    all i got from your post is you're suggesting the following conflicting points:

    1. ele is self sufficient and doesnt need any other classes' help to be effective in wvw
    2. but it just needs a rev
    3. but it also need boon removals from necros/warriors
    4. and heals from zerg (guardian)

    might as well just bring a fb, scourge, and a chrono in your 5~15 man ranged group at this point so you actually get useful boons such as stab/aegis/resistance/quickness and boon removal so your poke actually does something and you can safely MS anytime you want.

    and no the balance is still pretty poor when, in a general, fbs and scourges are still what's making up most of the zerg and those 2 are always required in any zerg (with spellbreaker coming in close as 3rd) whereas all other classes are all nice to haves

  • my problem is that ele's potential is held back by the fact that you're bringing at least 2 attunements that don't fit you're stats and becuase of that everything has to be watered down. Ele provides nothing to the group besides damage, and thats ok in a static scenario that is well prepared for like raids or fractals, but all that extra "something of everything" it brings is useless because if any of it was useful along with being able to do decent damage than ele would be over powered. To me there aren't many solutions to the problem of ele having to bring everything in its arsenal; damage with fire and air, control and defense with water and earth, and support spread throughout. My only solution would be to make ele traits have more skill add-on effects that allows the skills that you enhance to be stronger than they currently are, but the skills you dont pick will be weaker. This way things like healing might not be a big part of water skills unless you trait for it, and so on. Universal necessities should be located in arcane, like condi cleanse.

    These arguments about ele being op, or strong is a little ridiculous. Ele has a lot of outplay ability so I know where the point is about you get what you put in, but its more so you can play really good as ele and possibly survive decently, but no one is going to die to and you wont make much of an impact unless the oponnent is severly less skilled than you.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2018

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    with a 60-65% crit chance (your crit chance should be somewhere around there unless you don't care about having good dps) you're getting at least 25 seconds to an unlikely but still possible theoretical 40seconds of fury every 60 seconds. I know this because I've done calculations and never had a problem with it, mostly because this trait in WvW is just to make up for not having a rev in your party and optimally your commander should be pairing revs and weavers in the same parties. I have almost 80-90% fury uptime whenever I'm in a squad >__> it's always there when I look down at my boons.

    I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from for Raging Storm, but suggesting that the fury uptime is great by staging some hypothetical scenario and pulling out some numbers doesnt really make much sense to me. The literal upper bound due to 3s icd is 60/3 x 2 = 40s, assuming 100% critc chance, not 60~65%, and neither 40s x 60% nor 40s x 65% gives you an AT LEAST 25s but an AVERAGE of 24s~26s. This is also assuming you're successfully landing 1 attack on an enemy every second. Plus, the fury gained from that trait is not even useful for your first burst on MS, which does the most damage, and enemies usually react to you after they've gotten hit once.

    Also, perma swiftness - you are playing Weaver right? You know you get swiftness every time you cast a dual skill man? When I'm running alone to catch up with a zerg I dual skill, dual skill, burning retreat backwards, dual skill, dual skill ... perma swiftness and very fast travel time and if you see a roamer coming your way you'll have time to switch attunements, and if you don't see the roamer coming, well you're surprise-ganked either way.

    Suggesting perma swiftness from spamming dual skills is as silly as suggesting something like an engi is great because it can have perma stability from running flamethrower trait. It is not very useful in practice because:
    1. You're likely not in correct attunement to be able cc or cast your offensive fire spells at crucial moments
    2. Wasting your dual skills randomly on nobody
    3. All of the dual staff skills have a high cast time and 1 you cant even use because it roots you in place
    4. Possibly getting slowed down when your 1200 range dual skills hits random critters just for you to travel

    I tried the stabbing up before casting MS a few times and it's a cool gimmick, but it's really just a gimmick. I get ~90% of my MS casts off just by doing the burning retreat-meteor shower trick. Saves you from slotting a stab skill/weaver trait and allows you to cast MS from 2000 range .... 2900 if you combine it with LF.

    This is not a cool gimmick; the burning retreat trick is a cool gimmick. Having stability is actually good because it allows you to cast it in nearly all situations, including the enemy seeing you, except a very specific situation where their boon removal class saw your stability and quickly comboed their removal with a cc to interrupt you, which happens even less when you're the one surprising them by popping your own stability. Neither Lightning Flash nor Burning Retreat is reliable in the case where you want to MS enemies that are sieging your gates/walls and you have to run up to your walls to get LoS, but stability easily allows that (burning retreat isnt even possible most of the time in this case because you not only have to aim your MS in a fraction of a second but also position your back correctly so you don't just fall off at the wrong side, whereas LF requires a really fast look behind and hopefully you aim it correctly to prevent no valid path).

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    nobody cares about weaver dps when minstrel fbs and chronos can literally stand inside meteor showers and emote as long as their boons dont get removed by scourges/spellbreakers. weavers are useless without the help of various other meta classes.

    Then you're casting your meteors on wrong targets. You have no business in damaging tanks when your biggest nuke has DR on it. Meteors still hits squishier targets quite hard and those are the enemy damage dealers; remove pressure and enemy supports have nothing to support.

    Supports are useless without damage dealers. Damage output is useless when enemy still rolls over you (there's no boon rip/corrupt/cc). Necros are useless without proper support. It's all team play, no class can work on their own in a wvw blob.

    Staff weaver performs perfectly fine in big zergs, the issue is that lots of skills are worthless/too slow and its main pressure comes from 1 or 2 skills. It makes sense on hammer rev since it doesn't have many dps skills, but ele has like 10-15 of them. The issue is that it's forced into semi support (any water skills, whose heal is quite low on dps builds) in every build so it sustain has to be awful to compensate. The issue is that despite having 95% of damage output from only 3 fire skills, you still need to swap attunements for CC, while almost completely losing damage output (due to damaging skills being unreliable) - with ~15 skills across 4 attunements you're basically doing the same thing rev does with 4 on just 1 weapon. The issue is that self boon sustain is weak/non existing. The issue is that good condi cleanse comes with huge loss in damage (water/arc traits) and/or loss in self sustain (ether renewal is both channel and weak heal; cleansing fire's offensive part has no use, but you're essentially losing a defensive utility skill).

    Winds nerf didn't impact eles negatively, it made all ranged builds better since there's a lot less projectile hate now. Dome wasnt stipping boons after 5 seconds anyway, it was mostly a zone control at that point, which is gone now.

    I'd rather have meteor shower on shorter cooldown, channel time, duration, less hits, but with weapon skills that are more responsive and execute faster instead of waiting 24 seconds to press 5 and run around trying to squeeze 10% of meteors' damage output with my whole kit and pretending I support allies (at least CC is great).

    @certain people in this thread: There's balance issues and l2p issues, don't mistake one for another. Ele is not really designed for spamming 5 buttons off cd like all other classes, so don't treat it like it's made as such. It's supposed to have high effort/reward ratio, but you make it sound like you want reward for no effort by complaining how weak ele is.

    yeah because scourges and firebrands are perfectly balanced where one just has to put down a shade and spam all F keys and wells, and nobody -- from fbs/chronos to squishies including eles can just face tank it, while as fb you just afk until they happened to get your boons removed then you spam utilities skills and pull out your broken tomes.

    keep preaching l2p when the """"learning"""" part is basically you not following the tag and camping at the sides hoping nobody sees and have your zerg do all the work of:
    1. drawing enemy's attention away from you
    2. removing boons for you
    3. buffing you with stability/fury/might/quickness/barriers
    4. ccing enemies for you
    5. removing chill & weakness from you

    no other classes are that reliant on the team and being able to sit in a highly telegraphed, long channeled, high cd skill and barely take a scratch no matter which target or build is quite kitten in my opinion

    After latest patch you don't even need to be part of squad to be effective. You get your own might and fury, it's just a lot slower without rev (who gets permanent boons with no effort). It's not main zerg who's drawing enemy's attention, it's ranged zerg who's damaging and zoning enemy. You're not even in range of enemy boon rips, if you're getting corrupted you're playing backline wrong. While I agree that quickness does make meteor shower a lot more effective, you can get healed from just walking through melee squad; you have your own defensive skills and stability (which you really only need for safe meteor). Chill/weakness is problem of every backline build, not just ele (those traits are quite ridiculous actually; cc reflect, taunt and weakness procs really need to go, or at least have range cap).

    Ele (and shiro rev) is barely reliant on team, that's why it's capable of clouding around enemy with almost no problem. Try doing that on necro and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you can survive retaliation, you don't need your team to babysit you at all.

    That's your opinion, and my opinion is the reverse. There's no way you can get meaningful fury/might/stab yourself unless you sacrifice your defense/offense or exchange one of those boons for the other. The fury from Raging Storm trait is not even real because it requires a critc in the first place and only lasts 2s on a 3s icd. Air trait line is also quite trash compared to Arcane in my opinion because you miss out crucial cd reduction for your attunments, perma swiftness, and need to camp air to be able to move anywhere, but it's still probably personal preference (and no, I'm not wasting time doing the switch build thing just to move around and then switch back every time). The best fury you can get from standard dps staff weaver is from either Unravel or blasting your fire fields with Persisting Flames. Taking Unravel means giving up either mist form or lightning flash and you're that much easier to get caught and die without these 2. The easy 10+ stacks of might from Pyromancer's is just that much better than Persisting Flames it's really not even an option. Having stability for safe MS is quite useful when zergs are constantly moving and there are a lot more opportunities to cast it when you do have it, especially when defending against enemy siege, otherwise it's really just hoping for your zerg to distract enemy's zerg for you again until you can actually use your MS.

    Stay near revs before fights so you get boons. Walk near tag when you get low on hp/boons.

    Necros can poke with their 1200 ranged staff & 900 ranged skills quite well, and they have their own spammable condi clears and barriers to poke if they wanted. Plus, chills & weakness don't affect them as much as it does to power weavers. In fact, no other specialization in the entire game, including core ele and tempest, gets countered by chill as hard as weaver does because that's just how weavers work -- they need to constantly switch attunement to be effective but they also get locked out of all attunements whenever they switch (also why alacrity is so much more effective on weavers). If I see some staff weavers running around by themselves trying to harass our zerg as necro, all I have to do is spam my marks, especially chill & fear on them. There's no way they can channel their meteor shower without getting hit by my shades unless they do the lightning flash/burning retreat trick, and the telegraph of meteor shower is so huge and slow anyways all i have to do is walk out of it and maybe dodge/barrier once to take no damage.

    Their 1200 poke barely does damage, it's mostly used for cc, condi spam or condi transfer. If you walk to them then you're basically dead since other 1200 range classes are much more effective at zoning than necro. You dont play range wars with 1 ele, you do it with 5-15 builds with 1200+ range so gl doing something vs them as necro.

    The only downside I felt when playing necros is their incredibly slow movement because they don't generally have access to perma swiftness and less stunbreaks compared to weavers so it's that much easier for me to get chain cced and killed, but really these 2 issues don't matter as much considering that it's mostly solved by actually being with the tag. I'd also gladly make this trade to be able to just spam skills regardless of targets and still do actual pressure, or play the blood variant where i get to not only play as support that has powerful barriers and incredible rez for my zerg but also still pressure the enemy because boon removal is just so useful.

    And ele issues are solved by being near revenant. Easy 10 might and perma swift/fury, you have your own defenses anyway. You cant stun lock ele due to stability and evade on stun breaks and they can always mist form behind the tag. Basically your only issue is lack of heals, but again, you walk near tag/out of combat and continue what you were doing before.

    Every time I play ele in both WvW and sPvP it's really just me feeling like I'm getting carried by my team the entire time. I could care less about some artificial numbers on a 3rd party tool that's inflated from hitting downs most of the time, and these downs are even usually generated with the help of the team. Ele is just neither a play maker nor a true team support to me but instead some class that begs for its team to do all the work so it can look at some big numbers and feel like it's doing something.

    In small scale I agree: glass cannon builds dont have high enough burst to compensate for their low mobility/sustain and bruiser builds just dont have damage pressure to handle enemies. But in large scale eles and warrs are what makes plays happen. Warr is the obvious reason due to bubble/boon rip, but ele is often underrated and probably not played properly to its full potential. When you get a ranged squad of 10-15 (mostly revs and eles, but rangers can be quite deadly as well with their 10k autos and unblockable bursts) you can easily control where enemy blob moves with constant meteor spam and they cant do anything against you since you are mobile and have more range than them (unless enemy also has a strong ranged force). In that situation you're the playmaker since it takes only 3-5 good meteors on top of corrupts/bubbles to wipe wipe enemy blob (even if enemy has stronger melee blob that would wipe yours, you have much better ranged damage; I had a blob once with 30 necros and 2 eles that couldnt wipe anything despite having lots of currupts - the damage just wasnt there). I agree that damage is worthless without boon removal and CC, but boon removal/cc are pointless if you have 0 damage pressure, and necros for example have quite lower damage potential than eles/revs.

    There needs to be balance between all these roles in wvw and that balance exists at the moment. The problem is that certain classes have much more roles than other ones and ele's role is based on rng.

    all i got from your post is you're suggesting the following conflicting points:

    1. ele is self sufficient and doesnt need any other classes' help to be effective in wvw
    2. but it just needs a rev
    3. but it also need boon removals from necros/warriors
    4. and heals from zerg (guardian)

    might as well just bring a fb, scourge, and a chrono in your 5~15 man ranged group at this point so you actually get useful boons such as stab/aegis/resistance/quickness and boon removal so your poke actually does something and you can safely MS anytime you want.

    and no the balance is still pretty poor when, in a general, fbs and scourges are still what's making up most of the zerg and those 2 are always required in any zerg (with spellbreaker coming in close as 3rd) whereas all other classes are all nice to haves

    Self sufficient in sense that you don't need a permanent bodyguard like scourge/"melee" rev for heals, cleanses, stun breaks and general boon coverage. Heal can be replaced with going ooc, fury is mostly needed for initial spike (you get fury before fights from revs anyway, that should be enough with raging storm later on) and everyone needs corrupts to do damage, that's not reliance, that's just how wvw works.

    You don't need those classes/boons in ranged party because you almost never get corrupted (or hit by conditions) and when you do, you have your own cleanse. Your biggest enemy as ele is retal, but since you play at high range it's easy to disengage and/or heal up.

    If staff ele could sustain itself with heals, barriers and boons while bringing massive pressure from 1200 range and being almost impossible to fully kill due to mist forms and good sustain it would be rather broken build. I know we're all biased towards ele, but let's be realistic here.

    Deso's favorite FROG
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  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    nobody cares about weaver dps when minstrel fbs and chronos can literally stand inside meteor showers and emote as long as their boons dont get removed by scourges/spellbreakers. weavers are useless without the help of various other meta classes.

    Then you're casting your meteors on wrong targets. You have no business in damaging tanks when your biggest nuke has DR on it. Meteors still hits squishier targets quite hard and those are the enemy damage dealers; remove pressure and enemy supports have nothing to support.

    Supports are useless without damage dealers. Damage output is useless when enemy still rolls over you (there's no boon rip/corrupt/cc). Necros are useless without proper support. It's all team play, no class can work on their own in a wvw blob.

    Staff weaver performs perfectly fine in big zergs, the issue is that lots of skills are worthless/too slow and its main pressure comes from 1 or 2 skills. It makes sense on hammer rev since it doesn't have many dps skills, but ele has like 10-15 of them. The issue is that it's forced into semi support (any water skills, whose heal is quite low on dps builds) in every build so it sustain has to be awful to compensate. The issue is that despite having 95% of damage output from only 3 fire skills, you still need to swap attunements for CC, while almost completely losing damage output (due to damaging skills being unreliable) - with ~15 skills across 4 attunements you're basically doing the same thing rev does with 4 on just 1 weapon. The issue is that self boon sustain is weak/non existing. The issue is that good condi cleanse comes with huge loss in damage (water/arc traits) and/or loss in self sustain (ether renewal is both channel and weak heal; cleansing fire's offensive part has no use, but you're essentially losing a defensive utility skill).

    Winds nerf didn't impact eles negatively, it made all ranged builds better since there's a lot less projectile hate now. Dome wasnt stipping boons after 5 seconds anyway, it was mostly a zone control at that point, which is gone now.

    I'd rather have meteor shower on shorter cooldown, channel time, duration, less hits, but with weapon skills that are more responsive and execute faster instead of waiting 24 seconds to press 5 and run around trying to squeeze 10% of meteors' damage output with my whole kit and pretending I support allies (at least CC is great).

    @certain people in this thread: There's balance issues and l2p issues, don't mistake one for another. Ele is not really designed for spamming 5 buttons off cd like all other classes, so don't treat it like it's made as such. It's supposed to have high effort/reward ratio, but you make it sound like you want reward for no effort by complaining how weak ele is.

    yeah because scourges and firebrands are perfectly balanced where one just has to put down a shade and spam all F keys and wells, and nobody -- from fbs/chronos to squishies including eles can just face tank it, while as fb you just afk until they happened to get your boons removed then you spam utilities skills and pull out your broken tomes.

    keep preaching l2p when the """"learning"""" part is basically you not following the tag and camping at the sides hoping nobody sees and have your zerg do all the work of:
    1. drawing enemy's attention away from you
    2. removing boons for you
    3. buffing you with stability/fury/might/quickness/barriers
    4. ccing enemies for you
    5. removing chill & weakness from you

    no other classes are that reliant on the team and being able to sit in a highly telegraphed, long channeled, high cd skill and barely take a scratch no matter which target or build is quite kitten in my opinion

    After latest patch you don't even need to be part of squad to be effective. You get your own might and fury, it's just a lot slower without rev (who gets permanent boons with no effort). It's not main zerg who's drawing enemy's attention, it's ranged zerg who's damaging and zoning enemy. You're not even in range of enemy boon rips, if you're getting corrupted you're playing backline wrong. While I agree that quickness does make meteor shower a lot more effective, you can get healed from just walking through melee squad; you have your own defensive skills and stability (which you really only need for safe meteor). Chill/weakness is problem of every backline build, not just ele (those traits are quite ridiculous actually; cc reflect, taunt and weakness procs really need to go, or at least have range cap).

    Ele (and shiro rev) is barely reliant on team, that's why it's capable of clouding around enemy with almost no problem. Try doing that on necro and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you can survive retaliation, you don't need your team to babysit you at all.

    That's your opinion, and my opinion is the reverse. There's no way you can get meaningful fury/might/stab yourself unless you sacrifice your defense/offense or exchange one of those boons for the other. The fury from Raging Storm trait is not even real because it requires a critc in the first place and only lasts 2s on a 3s icd. Air trait line is also quite trash compared to Arcane in my opinion because you miss out crucial cd reduction for your attunments, perma swiftness, and need to camp air to be able to move anywhere, but it's still probably personal preference (and no, I'm not wasting time doing the switch build thing just to move around and then switch back every time). The best fury you can get from standard dps staff weaver is from either Unravel or blasting your fire fields with Persisting Flames. Taking Unravel means giving up either mist form or lightning flash and you're that much easier to get caught and die without these 2. The easy 10+ stacks of might from Pyromancer's is just that much better than Persisting Flames it's really not even an option. Having stability for safe MS is quite useful when zergs are constantly moving and there are a lot more opportunities to cast it when you do have it, especially when defending against enemy siege, otherwise it's really just hoping for your zerg to distract enemy's zerg for you again until you can actually use your MS.

    Stay near revs before fights so you get boons. Walk near tag when you get low on hp/boons.

    Necros can poke with their 1200 ranged staff & 900 ranged skills quite well, and they have their own spammable condi clears and barriers to poke if they wanted. Plus, chills & weakness don't affect them as much as it does to power weavers. In fact, no other specialization in the entire game, including core ele and tempest, gets countered by chill as hard as weaver does because that's just how weavers work -- they need to constantly switch attunement to be effective but they also get locked out of all attunements whenever they switch (also why alacrity is so much more effective on weavers). If I see some staff weavers running around by themselves trying to harass our zerg as necro, all I have to do is spam my marks, especially chill & fear on them. There's no way they can channel their meteor shower without getting hit by my shades unless they do the lightning flash/burning retreat trick, and the telegraph of meteor shower is so huge and slow anyways all i have to do is walk out of it and maybe dodge/barrier once to take no damage.

    Their 1200 poke barely does damage, it's mostly used for cc, condi spam or condi transfer. If you walk to them then you're basically dead since other 1200 range classes are much more effective at zoning than necro. You dont play range wars with 1 ele, you do it with 5-15 builds with 1200+ range so gl doing something vs them as necro.

    The only downside I felt when playing necros is their incredibly slow movement because they don't generally have access to perma swiftness and less stunbreaks compared to weavers so it's that much easier for me to get chain cced and killed, but really these 2 issues don't matter as much considering that it's mostly solved by actually being with the tag. I'd also gladly make this trade to be able to just spam skills regardless of targets and still do actual pressure, or play the blood variant where i get to not only play as support that has powerful barriers and incredible rez for my zerg but also still pressure the enemy because boon removal is just so useful.

    And ele issues are solved by being near revenant. Easy 10 might and perma swift/fury, you have your own defenses anyway. You cant stun lock ele due to stability and evade on stun breaks and they can always mist form behind the tag. Basically your only issue is lack of heals, but again, you walk near tag/out of combat and continue what you were doing before.

    Every time I play ele in both WvW and sPvP it's really just me feeling like I'm getting carried by my team the entire time. I could care less about some artificial numbers on a 3rd party tool that's inflated from hitting downs most of the time, and these downs are even usually generated with the help of the team. Ele is just neither a play maker nor a true team support to me but instead some class that begs for its team to do all the work so it can look at some big numbers and feel like it's doing something.

    In small scale I agree: glass cannon builds dont have high enough burst to compensate for their low mobility/sustain and bruiser builds just dont have damage pressure to handle enemies. But in large scale eles and warrs are what makes plays happen. Warr is the obvious reason due to bubble/boon rip, but ele is often underrated and probably not played properly to its full potential. When you get a ranged squad of 10-15 (mostly revs and eles, but rangers can be quite deadly as well with their 10k autos and unblockable bursts) you can easily control where enemy blob moves with constant meteor spam and they cant do anything against you since you are mobile and have more range than them (unless enemy also has a strong ranged force). In that situation you're the playmaker since it takes only 3-5 good meteors on top of corrupts/bubbles to wipe wipe enemy blob (even if enemy has stronger melee blob that would wipe yours, you have much better ranged damage; I had a blob once with 30 necros and 2 eles that couldnt wipe anything despite having lots of currupts - the damage just wasnt there). I agree that damage is worthless without boon removal and CC, but boon removal/cc are pointless if you have 0 damage pressure, and necros for example have quite lower damage potential than eles/revs.

    There needs to be balance between all these roles in wvw and that balance exists at the moment. The problem is that certain classes have much more roles than other ones and ele's role is based on rng.

    all i got from your post is you're suggesting the following conflicting points:

    1. ele is self sufficient and doesnt need any other classes' help to be effective in wvw
    2. but it just needs a rev
    3. but it also need boon removals from necros/warriors
    4. and heals from zerg (guardian)

    might as well just bring a fb, scourge, and a chrono in your 5~15 man ranged group at this point so you actually get useful boons such as stab/aegis/resistance/quickness and boon removal so your poke actually does something and you can safely MS anytime you want.

    and no the balance is still pretty poor when, in a general, fbs and scourges are still what's making up most of the zerg and those 2 are always required in any zerg (with spellbreaker coming in close as 3rd) whereas all other classes are all nice to haves

    Self sufficient in sense that you don't need a permanent bodyguard like scourge/"melee" rev for heals, cleanses, stun breaks and general boon coverage. Heal can be replaced with going ooc, fury is mostly needed for initial spike (you get fury before fights from revs anyway, that should be enough with raging storm later on) and everyone needs corrupts to do damage, that's not reliance, that's just how wvw works.

    You don't need those classes/boons in ranged party because you almost never get corrupted (or hit by conditions) and when you do, you have your own cleanse. Your biggest enemy as ele is retal, but since you play at high range it's easy to disengage and/or heal up.

    If staff ele could sustain itself with heals, barriers and boons while bringing massive pressure from 1200 range and being almost impossible to fully kill due to mist forms and good sustain it would be rather broken build. I know we're all biased towards ele, but let's be realistic here.

    I see no reason why the argument :" high risk=high reward" should be applied only to elementalists , to have a healthy relation between high risk and high reward is surely a sound argument, no complaint there...but the issue here is that only ele seems to follow this ideology

    Even when talking about 1200 range, all other classes offer way safer gameplay for few point more or less than the output of a glass ele and so the question remains : "why is that?"

    Now other than the common :" then go play other professions and leave ele to us pro"...I never seen a very logical answer on these forums

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2018

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    nobody cares about weaver dps when minstrel fbs and chronos can literally stand inside meteor showers and emote as long as their boons dont get removed by scourges/spellbreakers. weavers are useless without the help of various other meta classes.

    Then you're casting your meteors on wrong targets. You have no business in damaging tanks when your biggest nuke has DR on it. Meteors still hits squishier targets quite hard and those are the enemy damage dealers; remove pressure and enemy supports have nothing to support.

    Supports are useless without damage dealers. Damage output is useless when enemy still rolls over you (there's no boon rip/corrupt/cc). Necros are useless without proper support. It's all team play, no class can work on their own in a wvw blob.

    Staff weaver performs perfectly fine in big zergs, the issue is that lots of skills are worthless/too slow and its main pressure comes from 1 or 2 skills. It makes sense on hammer rev since it doesn't have many dps skills, but ele has like 10-15 of them. The issue is that it's forced into semi support (any water skills, whose heal is quite low on dps builds) in every build so it sustain has to be awful to compensate. The issue is that despite having 95% of damage output from only 3 fire skills, you still need to swap attunements for CC, while almost completely losing damage output (due to damaging skills being unreliable) - with ~15 skills across 4 attunements you're basically doing the same thing rev does with 4 on just 1 weapon. The issue is that self boon sustain is weak/non existing. The issue is that good condi cleanse comes with huge loss in damage (water/arc traits) and/or loss in self sustain (ether renewal is both channel and weak heal; cleansing fire's offensive part has no use, but you're essentially losing a defensive utility skill).

    Winds nerf didn't impact eles negatively, it made all ranged builds better since there's a lot less projectile hate now. Dome wasnt stipping boons after 5 seconds anyway, it was mostly a zone control at that point, which is gone now.

    I'd rather have meteor shower on shorter cooldown, channel time, duration, less hits, but with weapon skills that are more responsive and execute faster instead of waiting 24 seconds to press 5 and run around trying to squeeze 10% of meteors' damage output with my whole kit and pretending I support allies (at least CC is great).

    @certain people in this thread: There's balance issues and l2p issues, don't mistake one for another. Ele is not really designed for spamming 5 buttons off cd like all other classes, so don't treat it like it's made as such. It's supposed to have high effort/reward ratio, but you make it sound like you want reward for no effort by complaining how weak ele is.

    yeah because scourges and firebrands are perfectly balanced where one just has to put down a shade and spam all F keys and wells, and nobody -- from fbs/chronos to squishies including eles can just face tank it, while as fb you just afk until they happened to get your boons removed then you spam utilities skills and pull out your broken tomes.

    keep preaching l2p when the """"learning"""" part is basically you not following the tag and camping at the sides hoping nobody sees and have your zerg do all the work of:
    1. drawing enemy's attention away from you
    2. removing boons for you
    3. buffing you with stability/fury/might/quickness/barriers
    4. ccing enemies for you
    5. removing chill & weakness from you

    no other classes are that reliant on the team and being able to sit in a highly telegraphed, long channeled, high cd skill and barely take a scratch no matter which target or build is quite kitten in my opinion

    After latest patch you don't even need to be part of squad to be effective. You get your own might and fury, it's just a lot slower without rev (who gets permanent boons with no effort). It's not main zerg who's drawing enemy's attention, it's ranged zerg who's damaging and zoning enemy. You're not even in range of enemy boon rips, if you're getting corrupted you're playing backline wrong. While I agree that quickness does make meteor shower a lot more effective, you can get healed from just walking through melee squad; you have your own defensive skills and stability (which you really only need for safe meteor). Chill/weakness is problem of every backline build, not just ele (those traits are quite ridiculous actually; cc reflect, taunt and weakness procs really need to go, or at least have range cap).

    Ele (and shiro rev) is barely reliant on team, that's why it's capable of clouding around enemy with almost no problem. Try doing that on necro and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you can survive retaliation, you don't need your team to babysit you at all.

    That's your opinion, and my opinion is the reverse. There's no way you can get meaningful fury/might/stab yourself unless you sacrifice your defense/offense or exchange one of those boons for the other. The fury from Raging Storm trait is not even real because it requires a critc in the first place and only lasts 2s on a 3s icd. Air trait line is also quite trash compared to Arcane in my opinion because you miss out crucial cd reduction for your attunments, perma swiftness, and need to camp air to be able to move anywhere, but it's still probably personal preference (and no, I'm not wasting time doing the switch build thing just to move around and then switch back every time). The best fury you can get from standard dps staff weaver is from either Unravel or blasting your fire fields with Persisting Flames. Taking Unravel means giving up either mist form or lightning flash and you're that much easier to get caught and die without these 2. The easy 10+ stacks of might from Pyromancer's is just that much better than Persisting Flames it's really not even an option. Having stability for safe MS is quite useful when zergs are constantly moving and there are a lot more opportunities to cast it when you do have it, especially when defending against enemy siege, otherwise it's really just hoping for your zerg to distract enemy's zerg for you again until you can actually use your MS.

    Stay near revs before fights so you get boons. Walk near tag when you get low on hp/boons.

    Necros can poke with their 1200 ranged staff & 900 ranged skills quite well, and they have their own spammable condi clears and barriers to poke if they wanted. Plus, chills & weakness don't affect them as much as it does to power weavers. In fact, no other specialization in the entire game, including core ele and tempest, gets countered by chill as hard as weaver does because that's just how weavers work -- they need to constantly switch attunement to be effective but they also get locked out of all attunements whenever they switch (also why alacrity is so much more effective on weavers). If I see some staff weavers running around by themselves trying to harass our zerg as necro, all I have to do is spam my marks, especially chill & fear on them. There's no way they can channel their meteor shower without getting hit by my shades unless they do the lightning flash/burning retreat trick, and the telegraph of meteor shower is so huge and slow anyways all i have to do is walk out of it and maybe dodge/barrier once to take no damage.

    Their 1200 poke barely does damage, it's mostly used for cc, condi spam or condi transfer. If you walk to them then you're basically dead since other 1200 range classes are much more effective at zoning than necro. You dont play range wars with 1 ele, you do it with 5-15 builds with 1200+ range so gl doing something vs them as necro.

    The only downside I felt when playing necros is their incredibly slow movement because they don't generally have access to perma swiftness and less stunbreaks compared to weavers so it's that much easier for me to get chain cced and killed, but really these 2 issues don't matter as much considering that it's mostly solved by actually being with the tag. I'd also gladly make this trade to be able to just spam skills regardless of targets and still do actual pressure, or play the blood variant where i get to not only play as support that has powerful barriers and incredible rez for my zerg but also still pressure the enemy because boon removal is just so useful.

    And ele issues are solved by being near revenant. Easy 10 might and perma swift/fury, you have your own defenses anyway. You cant stun lock ele due to stability and evade on stun breaks and they can always mist form behind the tag. Basically your only issue is lack of heals, but again, you walk near tag/out of combat and continue what you were doing before.

    Every time I play ele in both WvW and sPvP it's really just me feeling like I'm getting carried by my team the entire time. I could care less about some artificial numbers on a 3rd party tool that's inflated from hitting downs most of the time, and these downs are even usually generated with the help of the team. Ele is just neither a play maker nor a true team support to me but instead some class that begs for its team to do all the work so it can look at some big numbers and feel like it's doing something.

    In small scale I agree: glass cannon builds dont have high enough burst to compensate for their low mobility/sustain and bruiser builds just dont have damage pressure to handle enemies. But in large scale eles and warrs are what makes plays happen. Warr is the obvious reason due to bubble/boon rip, but ele is often underrated and probably not played properly to its full potential. When you get a ranged squad of 10-15 (mostly revs and eles, but rangers can be quite deadly as well with their 10k autos and unblockable bursts) you can easily control where enemy blob moves with constant meteor spam and they cant do anything against you since you are mobile and have more range than them (unless enemy also has a strong ranged force). In that situation you're the playmaker since it takes only 3-5 good meteors on top of corrupts/bubbles to wipe wipe enemy blob (even if enemy has stronger melee blob that would wipe yours, you have much better ranged damage; I had a blob once with 30 necros and 2 eles that couldnt wipe anything despite having lots of currupts - the damage just wasnt there). I agree that damage is worthless without boon removal and CC, but boon removal/cc are pointless if you have 0 damage pressure, and necros for example have quite lower damage potential than eles/revs.

    There needs to be balance between all these roles in wvw and that balance exists at the moment. The problem is that certain classes have much more roles than other ones and ele's role is based on rng.

    all i got from your post is you're suggesting the following conflicting points:

    1. ele is self sufficient and doesnt need any other classes' help to be effective in wvw
    2. but it just needs a rev
    3. but it also need boon removals from necros/warriors
    4. and heals from zerg (guardian)

    might as well just bring a fb, scourge, and a chrono in your 5~15 man ranged group at this point so you actually get useful boons such as stab/aegis/resistance/quickness and boon removal so your poke actually does something and you can safely MS anytime you want.

    and no the balance is still pretty poor when, in a general, fbs and scourges are still what's making up most of the zerg and those 2 are always required in any zerg (with spellbreaker coming in close as 3rd) whereas all other classes are all nice to haves

    Self sufficient in sense that you don't need a permanent bodyguard like scourge/"melee" rev for heals, cleanses, stun breaks and general boon coverage. Heal can be replaced with going ooc, fury is mostly needed for initial spike (you get fury before fights from revs anyway, that should be enough with raging storm later on) and everyone needs corrupts to do damage, that's not reliance, that's just how wvw works.

    You don't need those classes/boons in ranged party because you almost never get corrupted (or hit by conditions) and when you do, you have your own cleanse. Your biggest enemy as ele is retal, but since you play at high range it's easy to disengage and/or heal up.

    If staff ele could sustain itself with heals, barriers and boons while bringing massive pressure from 1200 range and being almost impossible to fully kill due to mist forms and good sustain it would be rather broken build. I know we're all biased towards ele, but let's be realistic here.

    I see no reason why the argument :" high risk=high reward" should be applied only to elementalists , to have a healthy relation between high risk and high reward is surely a sound argument, no complaint there...but the issue here is that only ele seems to follow this ideology

    Even when talking about 1200 range, all other classes offer way safer gameplay for few point more or less than the output of a glass ele and so the question remains : "why is that?"

    Now other than the common :" then go play other professions and leave ele to us pro"...I never seen a very logical answer on these forums

    Other classes dont have as high reward, simple. Besides pvp and wvw roaming*, ele is currently quite balanced in that regard when it comes to pure damage output. The fact that a hybrid class cant be useful while being played as hybrid is a bit concerning though.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    nobody cares about weaver dps when minstrel fbs and chronos can literally stand inside meteor showers and emote as long as their boons dont get removed by scourges/spellbreakers. weavers are useless without the help of various other meta classes.

    Then you're casting your meteors on wrong targets. You have no business in damaging tanks when your biggest nuke has DR on it. Meteors still hits squishier targets quite hard and those are the enemy damage dealers; remove pressure and enemy supports have nothing to support.

    Supports are useless without damage dealers. Damage output is useless when enemy still rolls over you (there's no boon rip/corrupt/cc). Necros are useless without proper support. It's all team play, no class can work on their own in a wvw blob.

    Staff weaver performs perfectly fine in big zergs, the issue is that lots of skills are worthless/too slow and its main pressure comes from 1 or 2 skills. It makes sense on hammer rev since it doesn't have many dps skills, but ele has like 10-15 of them. The issue is that it's forced into semi support (any water skills, whose heal is quite low on dps builds) in every build so it sustain has to be awful to compensate. The issue is that despite having 95% of damage output from only 3 fire skills, you still need to swap attunements for CC, while almost completely losing damage output (due to damaging skills being unreliable) - with ~15 skills across 4 attunements you're basically doing the same thing rev does with 4 on just 1 weapon. The issue is that self boon sustain is weak/non existing. The issue is that good condi cleanse comes with huge loss in damage (water/arc traits) and/or loss in self sustain (ether renewal is both channel and weak heal; cleansing fire's offensive part has no use, but you're essentially losing a defensive utility skill).

    Winds nerf didn't impact eles negatively, it made all ranged builds better since there's a lot less projectile hate now. Dome wasnt stipping boons after 5 seconds anyway, it was mostly a zone control at that point, which is gone now.

    I'd rather have meteor shower on shorter cooldown, channel time, duration, less hits, but with weapon skills that are more responsive and execute faster instead of waiting 24 seconds to press 5 and run around trying to squeeze 10% of meteors' damage output with my whole kit and pretending I support allies (at least CC is great).

    @certain people in this thread: There's balance issues and l2p issues, don't mistake one for another. Ele is not really designed for spamming 5 buttons off cd like all other classes, so don't treat it like it's made as such. It's supposed to have high effort/reward ratio, but you make it sound like you want reward for no effort by complaining how weak ele is.

    yeah because scourges and firebrands are perfectly balanced where one just has to put down a shade and spam all F keys and wells, and nobody -- from fbs/chronos to squishies including eles can just face tank it, while as fb you just afk until they happened to get your boons removed then you spam utilities skills and pull out your broken tomes.

    keep preaching l2p when the """"learning"""" part is basically you not following the tag and camping at the sides hoping nobody sees and have your zerg do all the work of:
    1. drawing enemy's attention away from you
    2. removing boons for you
    3. buffing you with stability/fury/might/quickness/barriers
    4. ccing enemies for you
    5. removing chill & weakness from you

    no other classes are that reliant on the team and being able to sit in a highly telegraphed, long channeled, high cd skill and barely take a scratch no matter which target or build is quite kitten in my opinion

    After latest patch you don't even need to be part of squad to be effective. You get your own might and fury, it's just a lot slower without rev (who gets permanent boons with no effort). It's not main zerg who's drawing enemy's attention, it's ranged zerg who's damaging and zoning enemy. You're not even in range of enemy boon rips, if you're getting corrupted you're playing backline wrong. While I agree that quickness does make meteor shower a lot more effective, you can get healed from just walking through melee squad; you have your own defensive skills and stability (which you really only need for safe meteor). Chill/weakness is problem of every backline build, not just ele (those traits are quite ridiculous actually; cc reflect, taunt and weakness procs really need to go, or at least have range cap).

    Ele (and shiro rev) is barely reliant on team, that's why it's capable of clouding around enemy with almost no problem. Try doing that on necro and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you can survive retaliation, you don't need your team to babysit you at all.

    That's your opinion, and my opinion is the reverse. There's no way you can get meaningful fury/might/stab yourself unless you sacrifice your defense/offense or exchange one of those boons for the other. The fury from Raging Storm trait is not even real because it requires a critc in the first place and only lasts 2s on a 3s icd. Air trait line is also quite trash compared to Arcane in my opinion because you miss out crucial cd reduction for your attunments, perma swiftness, and need to camp air to be able to move anywhere, but it's still probably personal preference (and no, I'm not wasting time doing the switch build thing just to move around and then switch back every time). The best fury you can get from standard dps staff weaver is from either Unravel or blasting your fire fields with Persisting Flames. Taking Unravel means giving up either mist form or lightning flash and you're that much easier to get caught and die without these 2. The easy 10+ stacks of might from Pyromancer's is just that much better than Persisting Flames it's really not even an option. Having stability for safe MS is quite useful when zergs are constantly moving and there are a lot more opportunities to cast it when you do have it, especially when defending against enemy siege, otherwise it's really just hoping for your zerg to distract enemy's zerg for you again until you can actually use your MS.

    Stay near revs before fights so you get boons. Walk near tag when you get low on hp/boons.

    Necros can poke with their 1200 ranged staff & 900 ranged skills quite well, and they have their own spammable condi clears and barriers to poke if they wanted. Plus, chills & weakness don't affect them as much as it does to power weavers. In fact, no other specialization in the entire game, including core ele and tempest, gets countered by chill as hard as weaver does because that's just how weavers work -- they need to constantly switch attunement to be effective but they also get locked out of all attunements whenever they switch (also why alacrity is so much more effective on weavers). If I see some staff weavers running around by themselves trying to harass our zerg as necro, all I have to do is spam my marks, especially chill & fear on them. There's no way they can channel their meteor shower without getting hit by my shades unless they do the lightning flash/burning retreat trick, and the telegraph of meteor shower is so huge and slow anyways all i have to do is walk out of it and maybe dodge/barrier once to take no damage.

    Their 1200 poke barely does damage, it's mostly used for cc, condi spam or condi transfer. If you walk to them then you're basically dead since other 1200 range classes are much more effective at zoning than necro. You dont play range wars with 1 ele, you do it with 5-15 builds with 1200+ range so gl doing something vs them as necro.

    The only downside I felt when playing necros is their incredibly slow movement because they don't generally have access to perma swiftness and less stunbreaks compared to weavers so it's that much easier for me to get chain cced and killed, but really these 2 issues don't matter as much considering that it's mostly solved by actually being with the tag. I'd also gladly make this trade to be able to just spam skills regardless of targets and still do actual pressure, or play the blood variant where i get to not only play as support that has powerful barriers and incredible rez for my zerg but also still pressure the enemy because boon removal is just so useful.

    And ele issues are solved by being near revenant. Easy 10 might and perma swift/fury, you have your own defenses anyway. You cant stun lock ele due to stability and evade on stun breaks and they can always mist form behind the tag. Basically your only issue is lack of heals, but again, you walk near tag/out of combat and continue what you were doing before.

    Every time I play ele in both WvW and sPvP it's really just me feeling like I'm getting carried by my team the entire time. I could care less about some artificial numbers on a 3rd party tool that's inflated from hitting downs most of the time, and these downs are even usually generated with the help of the team. Ele is just neither a play maker nor a true team support to me but instead some class that begs for its team to do all the work so it can look at some big numbers and feel like it's doing something.

    In small scale I agree: glass cannon builds dont have high enough burst to compensate for their low mobility/sustain and bruiser builds just dont have damage pressure to handle enemies. But in large scale eles and warrs are what makes plays happen. Warr is the obvious reason due to bubble/boon rip, but ele is often underrated and probably not played properly to its full potential. When you get a ranged squad of 10-15 (mostly revs and eles, but rangers can be quite deadly as well with their 10k autos and unblockable bursts) you can easily control where enemy blob moves with constant meteor spam and they cant do anything against you since you are mobile and have more range than them (unless enemy also has a strong ranged force). In that situation you're the playmaker since it takes only 3-5 good meteors on top of corrupts/bubbles to wipe wipe enemy blob (even if enemy has stronger melee blob that would wipe yours, you have much better ranged damage; I had a blob once with 30 necros and 2 eles that couldnt wipe anything despite having lots of currupts - the damage just wasnt there). I agree that damage is worthless without boon removal and CC, but boon removal/cc are pointless if you have 0 damage pressure, and necros for example have quite lower damage potential than eles/revs.

    There needs to be balance between all these roles in wvw and that balance exists at the moment. The problem is that certain classes have much more roles than other ones and ele's role is based on rng.

    all i got from your post is you're suggesting the following conflicting points:

    1. ele is self sufficient and doesnt need any other classes' help to be effective in wvw
    2. but it just needs a rev
    3. but it also need boon removals from necros/warriors
    4. and heals from zerg (guardian)

    might as well just bring a fb, scourge, and a chrono in your 5~15 man ranged group at this point so you actually get useful boons such as stab/aegis/resistance/quickness and boon removal so your poke actually does something and you can safely MS anytime you want.

    and no the balance is still pretty poor when, in a general, fbs and scourges are still what's making up most of the zerg and those 2 are always required in any zerg (with spellbreaker coming in close as 3rd) whereas all other classes are all nice to haves

    Self sufficient in sense that you don't need a permanent bodyguard like scourge/"melee" rev for heals, cleanses, stun breaks and general boon coverage. Heal can be replaced with going ooc, fury is mostly needed for initial spike (you get fury before fights from revs anyway, that should be enough with raging storm later on) and everyone needs corrupts to do damage, that's not reliance, that's just how wvw works.

    You don't need those classes/boons in ranged party because you almost never get corrupted (or hit by conditions) and when you do, you have your own cleanse. Your biggest enemy as ele is retal, but since you play at high range it's easy to disengage and/or heal up.

    If staff ele could sustain itself with heals, barriers and boons while bringing massive pressure from 1200 range and being almost impossible to fully kill due to mist forms and good sustain it would be rather broken build. I know we're all biased towards ele, but let's be realistic here.

    I see no reason why the argument :" high risk=high reward" should be applied only to elementalists , to have a healthy relation between high risk and high reward is surely a sound argument, no complaint there...but the issue here is that only ele seems to follow this ideology

    Even when talking about 1200 range, all other classes offer way safer gameplay for few point more or less than the output of a glass ele and so the question remains : "why is that?"

    Now other than the common :" then go play other professions and leave ele to us pro"...I never seen a very logical answer on these forums

    Other classes dont have as high reward, simple. Besides pvp, ele is currently quite balanced in that regard when it comes to pure damage output. The fact that a hybrid class cant be useful while being played as hybrid is a bit concerning though.

    Its not a good thing that ele is balanced in spvp because all the other classes that are used in spvp are very much over powers in there effect and rolls.

    Even in wvw you find that most ppl are using the over powers classes far more then any thing else to fit one roll or another and in a game like gw2 where the ideal is to play how you want its a real problem.

    Weaver (as we are not going to see core ele or tempest fill a real dmg roll any time soon) dose good max dmg but its only dmg that is viable if it gets ppl off gard. The effects to counter weaver are perma level for cd and duration its only though hard counters that lets weaver do real dmg. Sadly weaver has non of these hard counters and that IS a real problem when it comes to class balancing as you can give up some max dmg and get more consistent dmg from a scroge who has these hard counters.

    When it comes to ele making its own counters to high dmg if falls way behind other classes as a tempest lacks many tools that all but one other support has. The lack of over shields barriers or aegis (means of effects before dmg is taken) puts tempest way behind scorge and FB support. The lack of stab support puts tempest behind scraper FB chron even scrog oddly. The lack of convention of condis puts tempest behind scraper FB and scorge... do you not see a real problem here? Losing out on any 1 of these things puts tempest and realty ele over all at a non use level.

    Weaver and tempest sure can do things in there bubbles of friends but your more or less a drain on the group.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    nobody cares about weaver dps when minstrel fbs and chronos can literally stand inside meteor showers and emote as long as their boons dont get removed by scourges/spellbreakers. weavers are useless without the help of various other meta classes.

    Then you're casting your meteors on wrong targets. You have no business in damaging tanks when your biggest nuke has DR on it. Meteors still hits squishier targets quite hard and those are the enemy damage dealers; remove pressure and enemy supports have nothing to support.

    Supports are useless without damage dealers. Damage output is useless when enemy still rolls over you (there's no boon rip/corrupt/cc). Necros are useless without proper support. It's all team play, no class can work on their own in a wvw blob.

    Staff weaver performs perfectly fine in big zergs, the issue is that lots of skills are worthless/too slow and its main pressure comes from 1 or 2 skills. It makes sense on hammer rev since it doesn't have many dps skills, but ele has like 10-15 of them. The issue is that it's forced into semi support (any water skills, whose heal is quite low on dps builds) in every build so it sustain has to be awful to compensate. The issue is that despite having 95% of damage output from only 3 fire skills, you still need to swap attunements for CC, while almost completely losing damage output (due to damaging skills being unreliable) - with ~15 skills across 4 attunements you're basically doing the same thing rev does with 4 on just 1 weapon. The issue is that self boon sustain is weak/non existing. The issue is that good condi cleanse comes with huge loss in damage (water/arc traits) and/or loss in self sustain (ether renewal is both channel and weak heal; cleansing fire's offensive part has no use, but you're essentially losing a defensive utility skill).

    Winds nerf didn't impact eles negatively, it made all ranged builds better since there's a lot less projectile hate now. Dome wasnt stipping boons after 5 seconds anyway, it was mostly a zone control at that point, which is gone now.

    I'd rather have meteor shower on shorter cooldown, channel time, duration, less hits, but with weapon skills that are more responsive and execute faster instead of waiting 24 seconds to press 5 and run around trying to squeeze 10% of meteors' damage output with my whole kit and pretending I support allies (at least CC is great).

    @certain people in this thread: There's balance issues and l2p issues, don't mistake one for another. Ele is not really designed for spamming 5 buttons off cd like all other classes, so don't treat it like it's made as such. It's supposed to have high effort/reward ratio, but you make it sound like you want reward for no effort by complaining how weak ele is.

    yeah because scourges and firebrands are perfectly balanced where one just has to put down a shade and spam all F keys and wells, and nobody -- from fbs/chronos to squishies including eles can just face tank it, while as fb you just afk until they happened to get your boons removed then you spam utilities skills and pull out your broken tomes.

    keep preaching l2p when the """"learning"""" part is basically you not following the tag and camping at the sides hoping nobody sees and have your zerg do all the work of:
    1. drawing enemy's attention away from you
    2. removing boons for you
    3. buffing you with stability/fury/might/quickness/barriers
    4. ccing enemies for you
    5. removing chill & weakness from you

    no other classes are that reliant on the team and being able to sit in a highly telegraphed, long channeled, high cd skill and barely take a scratch no matter which target or build is quite kitten in my opinion

    After latest patch you don't even need to be part of squad to be effective. You get your own might and fury, it's just a lot slower without rev (who gets permanent boons with no effort). It's not main zerg who's drawing enemy's attention, it's ranged zerg who's damaging and zoning enemy. You're not even in range of enemy boon rips, if you're getting corrupted you're playing backline wrong. While I agree that quickness does make meteor shower a lot more effective, you can get healed from just walking through melee squad; you have your own defensive skills and stability (which you really only need for safe meteor). Chill/weakness is problem of every backline build, not just ele (those traits are quite ridiculous actually; cc reflect, taunt and weakness procs really need to go, or at least have range cap).

    Ele (and shiro rev) is barely reliant on team, that's why it's capable of clouding around enemy with almost no problem. Try doing that on necro and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you can survive retaliation, you don't need your team to babysit you at all.

    That's your opinion, and my opinion is the reverse. There's no way you can get meaningful fury/might/stab yourself unless you sacrifice your defense/offense or exchange one of those boons for the other. The fury from Raging Storm trait is not even real because it requires a critc in the first place and only lasts 2s on a 3s icd. Air trait line is also quite trash compared to Arcane in my opinion because you miss out crucial cd reduction for your attunments, perma swiftness, and need to camp air to be able to move anywhere, but it's still probably personal preference (and no, I'm not wasting time doing the switch build thing just to move around and then switch back every time). The best fury you can get from standard dps staff weaver is from either Unravel or blasting your fire fields with Persisting Flames. Taking Unravel means giving up either mist form or lightning flash and you're that much easier to get caught and die without these 2. The easy 10+ stacks of might from Pyromancer's is just that much better than Persisting Flames it's really not even an option. Having stability for safe MS is quite useful when zergs are constantly moving and there are a lot more opportunities to cast it when you do have it, especially when defending against enemy siege, otherwise it's really just hoping for your zerg to distract enemy's zerg for you again until you can actually use your MS.

    Stay near revs before fights so you get boons. Walk near tag when you get low on hp/boons.

    Necros can poke with their 1200 ranged staff & 900 ranged skills quite well, and they have their own spammable condi clears and barriers to poke if they wanted. Plus, chills & weakness don't affect them as much as it does to power weavers. In fact, no other specialization in the entire game, including core ele and tempest, gets countered by chill as hard as weaver does because that's just how weavers work -- they need to constantly switch attunement to be effective but they also get locked out of all attunements whenever they switch (also why alacrity is so much more effective on weavers). If I see some staff weavers running around by themselves trying to harass our zerg as necro, all I have to do is spam my marks, especially chill & fear on them. There's no way they can channel their meteor shower without getting hit by my shades unless they do the lightning flash/burning retreat trick, and the telegraph of meteor shower is so huge and slow anyways all i have to do is walk out of it and maybe dodge/barrier once to take no damage.

    Their 1200 poke barely does damage, it's mostly used for cc, condi spam or condi transfer. If you walk to them then you're basically dead since other 1200 range classes are much more effective at zoning than necro. You dont play range wars with 1 ele, you do it with 5-15 builds with 1200+ range so gl doing something vs them as necro.

    The only downside I felt when playing necros is their incredibly slow movement because they don't generally have access to perma swiftness and less stunbreaks compared to weavers so it's that much easier for me to get chain cced and killed, but really these 2 issues don't matter as much considering that it's mostly solved by actually being with the tag. I'd also gladly make this trade to be able to just spam skills regardless of targets and still do actual pressure, or play the blood variant where i get to not only play as support that has powerful barriers and incredible rez for my zerg but also still pressure the enemy because boon removal is just so useful.

    And ele issues are solved by being near revenant. Easy 10 might and perma swift/fury, you have your own defenses anyway. You cant stun lock ele due to stability and evade on stun breaks and they can always mist form behind the tag. Basically your only issue is lack of heals, but again, you walk near tag/out of combat and continue what you were doing before.

    Every time I play ele in both WvW and sPvP it's really just me feeling like I'm getting carried by my team the entire time. I could care less about some artificial numbers on a 3rd party tool that's inflated from hitting downs most of the time, and these downs are even usually generated with the help of the team. Ele is just neither a play maker nor a true team support to me but instead some class that begs for its team to do all the work so it can look at some big numbers and feel like it's doing something.

    In small scale I agree: glass cannon builds dont have high enough burst to compensate for their low mobility/sustain and bruiser builds just dont have damage pressure to handle enemies. But in large scale eles and warrs are what makes plays happen. Warr is the obvious reason due to bubble/boon rip, but ele is often underrated and probably not played properly to its full potential. When you get a ranged squad of 10-15 (mostly revs and eles, but rangers can be quite deadly as well with their 10k autos and unblockable bursts) you can easily control where enemy blob moves with constant meteor spam and they cant do anything against you since you are mobile and have more range than them (unless enemy also has a strong ranged force). In that situation you're the playmaker since it takes only 3-5 good meteors on top of corrupts/bubbles to wipe wipe enemy blob (even if enemy has stronger melee blob that would wipe yours, you have much better ranged damage; I had a blob once with 30 necros and 2 eles that couldnt wipe anything despite having lots of currupts - the damage just wasnt there). I agree that damage is worthless without boon removal and CC, but boon removal/cc are pointless if you have 0 damage pressure, and necros for example have quite lower damage potential than eles/revs.

    There needs to be balance between all these roles in wvw and that balance exists at the moment. The problem is that certain classes have much more roles than other ones and ele's role is based on rng.

    all i got from your post is you're suggesting the following conflicting points:

    1. ele is self sufficient and doesnt need any other classes' help to be effective in wvw
    2. but it just needs a rev
    3. but it also need boon removals from necros/warriors
    4. and heals from zerg (guardian)

    might as well just bring a fb, scourge, and a chrono in your 5~15 man ranged group at this point so you actually get useful boons such as stab/aegis/resistance/quickness and boon removal so your poke actually does something and you can safely MS anytime you want.

    and no the balance is still pretty poor when, in a general, fbs and scourges are still what's making up most of the zerg and those 2 are always required in any zerg (with spellbreaker coming in close as 3rd) whereas all other classes are all nice to haves

    Self sufficient in sense that you don't need a permanent bodyguard like scourge/"melee" rev for heals, cleanses, stun breaks and general boon coverage. Heal can be replaced with going ooc, fury is mostly needed for initial spike (you get fury before fights from revs anyway, that should be enough with raging storm later on) and everyone needs corrupts to do damage, that's not reliance, that's just how wvw works.

    You don't need those classes/boons in ranged party because you almost never get corrupted (or hit by conditions) and when you do, you have your own cleanse. Your biggest enemy as ele is retal, but since you play at high range it's easy to disengage and/or heal up.

    If staff ele could sustain itself with heals, barriers and boons while bringing massive pressure from 1200 range and being almost impossible to fully kill due to mist forms and good sustain it would be rather broken build. I know we're all biased towards ele, but let's be realistic here.

    I see no reason why the argument :" high risk=high reward" should be applied only to elementalists , to have a healthy relation between high risk and high reward is surely a sound argument, no complaint there...but the issue here is that only ele seems to follow this ideology

    Even when talking about 1200 range, all other classes offer way safer gameplay for few point more or less than the output of a glass ele and so the question remains : "why is that?"

    Now other than the common :" then go play other professions and leave ele to us pro"...I never seen a very logical answer on these forums

    Other classes dont have as high reward, simple. Besides pvp, ele is currently quite balanced in that regard when it comes to pure damage output. The fact that a hybrid class cant be useful while being played as hybrid is a bit concerning though.

    Its not a good thing that ele is balanced in spvp because all the other classes that are used in spvp are very much over powers in there effect and rolls.

    Even in wvw you find that most ppl are using the over powers classes far more then any thing else to fit one roll or another and in a game like gw2 where the ideal is to play how you want its a real problem.

    Weaver (as we are not going to see core ele or tempest fill a real dmg roll any time soon) dose good max dmg but its only dmg that is viable if it gets ppl off gard. The effects to counter weaver are perma level for cd and duration its only though hard counters that lets weaver do real dmg. Sadly weaver has non of these hard counters and that IS a real problem when it comes to class balancing as you can give up some max dmg and get more consistent dmg from a scroge who has these hard counters.

    When it comes to ele making its own counters to high dmg if falls way behind other classes as a tempest lacks many tools that all but one other support has. The lack of over shields barriers or aegis (means of effects before dmg is taken) puts tempest way behind scorge and FB support. The lack of stab support puts tempest behind scraper FB chron even scrog oddly. The lack of convention of condis puts tempest behind scraper FB and scorge... do you not see a real problem here? Losing out on any 1 of these things puts tempest and realty ele over all at a non use level.

    Weaver and tempest sure can do things in there bubbles of friends but your more or less a drain on the group.

    I said it's balanced everywhere except pvp (and roaming). That everywhere being wvw zergs and pve group content.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • pve for ele has never really been a concern (i.e what this thread is discussing) and spamming aoe in blob v blob of is not really relevant to anything as you don't balance for blob play beyond builds that can shot at a distance.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Kako.1930Kako.1930 Member ✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    pve for ele has never really been a concern (i.e what this thread is discussing) and spamming aoe in blob v blob of is not really relevant to anything as you don't balance for blob play beyond builds that can shot at a distance.

    This thread was originally several mostly PvP threads that just got merged and shoved here so that no one had to look at them actually. That's why the move was extra frustrating. Most of the people that do post in this echo chamber are primarily AI whackers, so they don't get the original points of the threads.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2018

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    nobody cares about weaver dps when minstrel fbs and chronos can literally stand inside meteor showers and emote as long as their boons dont get removed by scourges/spellbreakers. weavers are useless without the help of various other meta classes.

    Then you're casting your meteors on wrong targets. You have no business in damaging tanks when your biggest nuke has DR on it. Meteors still hits squishier targets quite hard and those are the enemy damage dealers; remove pressure and enemy supports have nothing to support.

    Supports are useless without damage dealers. Damage output is useless when enemy still rolls over you (there's no boon rip/corrupt/cc). Necros are useless without proper support. It's all team play, no class can work on their own in a wvw blob.

    Staff weaver performs perfectly fine in big zergs, the issue is that lots of skills are worthless/too slow and its main pressure comes from 1 or 2 skills. It makes sense on hammer rev since it doesn't have many dps skills, but ele has like 10-15 of them. The issue is that it's forced into semi support (any water skills, whose heal is quite low on dps builds) in every build so it sustain has to be awful to compensate. The issue is that despite having 95% of damage output from only 3 fire skills, you still need to swap attunements for CC, while almost completely losing damage output (due to damaging skills being unreliable) - with ~15 skills across 4 attunements you're basically doing the same thing rev does with 4 on just 1 weapon. The issue is that self boon sustain is weak/non existing. The issue is that good condi cleanse comes with huge loss in damage (water/arc traits) and/or loss in self sustain (ether renewal is both channel and weak heal; cleansing fire's offensive part has no use, but you're essentially losing a defensive utility skill).

    Winds nerf didn't impact eles negatively, it made all ranged builds better since there's a lot less projectile hate now. Dome wasnt stipping boons after 5 seconds anyway, it was mostly a zone control at that point, which is gone now.

    I'd rather have meteor shower on shorter cooldown, channel time, duration, less hits, but with weapon skills that are more responsive and execute faster instead of waiting 24 seconds to press 5 and run around trying to squeeze 10% of meteors' damage output with my whole kit and pretending I support allies (at least CC is great).

    @certain people in this thread: There's balance issues and l2p issues, don't mistake one for another. Ele is not really designed for spamming 5 buttons off cd like all other classes, so don't treat it like it's made as such. It's supposed to have high effort/reward ratio, but you make it sound like you want reward for no effort by complaining how weak ele is.

    yeah because scourges and firebrands are perfectly balanced where one just has to put down a shade and spam all F keys and wells, and nobody -- from fbs/chronos to squishies including eles can just face tank it, while as fb you just afk until they happened to get your boons removed then you spam utilities skills and pull out your broken tomes.

    keep preaching l2p when the """"learning"""" part is basically you not following the tag and camping at the sides hoping nobody sees and have your zerg do all the work of:
    1. drawing enemy's attention away from you
    2. removing boons for you
    3. buffing you with stability/fury/might/quickness/barriers
    4. ccing enemies for you
    5. removing chill & weakness from you

    no other classes are that reliant on the team and being able to sit in a highly telegraphed, long channeled, high cd skill and barely take a scratch no matter which target or build is quite kitten in my opinion

    After latest patch you don't even need to be part of squad to be effective. You get your own might and fury, it's just a lot slower without rev (who gets permanent boons with no effort). It's not main zerg who's drawing enemy's attention, it's ranged zerg who's damaging and zoning enemy. You're not even in range of enemy boon rips, if you're getting corrupted you're playing backline wrong. While I agree that quickness does make meteor shower a lot more effective, you can get healed from just walking through melee squad; you have your own defensive skills and stability (which you really only need for safe meteor). Chill/weakness is problem of every backline build, not just ele (those traits are quite ridiculous actually; cc reflect, taunt and weakness procs really need to go, or at least have range cap).

    Ele (and shiro rev) is barely reliant on team, that's why it's capable of clouding around enemy with almost no problem. Try doing that on necro and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you can survive retaliation, you don't need your team to babysit you at all.

    That's your opinion, and my opinion is the reverse. There's no way you can get meaningful fury/might/stab yourself unless you sacrifice your defense/offense or exchange one of those boons for the other. The fury from Raging Storm trait is not even real because it requires a critc in the first place and only lasts 2s on a 3s icd. Air trait line is also quite trash compared to Arcane in my opinion because you miss out crucial cd reduction for your attunments, perma swiftness, and need to camp air to be able to move anywhere, but it's still probably personal preference (and no, I'm not wasting time doing the switch build thing just to move around and then switch back every time). The best fury you can get from standard dps staff weaver is from either Unravel or blasting your fire fields with Persisting Flames. Taking Unravel means giving up either mist form or lightning flash and you're that much easier to get caught and die without these 2. The easy 10+ stacks of might from Pyromancer's is just that much better than Persisting Flames it's really not even an option. Having stability for safe MS is quite useful when zergs are constantly moving and there are a lot more opportunities to cast it when you do have it, especially when defending against enemy siege, otherwise it's really just hoping for your zerg to distract enemy's zerg for you again until you can actually use your MS.

    Stay near revs before fights so you get boons. Walk near tag when you get low on hp/boons.

    Necros can poke with their 1200 ranged staff & 900 ranged skills quite well, and they have their own spammable condi clears and barriers to poke if they wanted. Plus, chills & weakness don't affect them as much as it does to power weavers. In fact, no other specialization in the entire game, including core ele and tempest, gets countered by chill as hard as weaver does because that's just how weavers work -- they need to constantly switch attunement to be effective but they also get locked out of all attunements whenever they switch (also why alacrity is so much more effective on weavers). If I see some staff weavers running around by themselves trying to harass our zerg as necro, all I have to do is spam my marks, especially chill & fear on them. There's no way they can channel their meteor shower without getting hit by my shades unless they do the lightning flash/burning retreat trick, and the telegraph of meteor shower is so huge and slow anyways all i have to do is walk out of it and maybe dodge/barrier once to take no damage.

    Their 1200 poke barely does damage, it's mostly used for cc, condi spam or condi transfer. If you walk to them then you're basically dead since other 1200 range classes are much more effective at zoning than necro. You dont play range wars with 1 ele, you do it with 5-15 builds with 1200+ range so gl doing something vs them as necro.

    The only downside I felt when playing necros is their incredibly slow movement because they don't generally have access to perma swiftness and less stunbreaks compared to weavers so it's that much easier for me to get chain cced and killed, but really these 2 issues don't matter as much considering that it's mostly solved by actually being with the tag. I'd also gladly make this trade to be able to just spam skills regardless of targets and still do actual pressure, or play the blood variant where i get to not only play as support that has powerful barriers and incredible rez for my zerg but also still pressure the enemy because boon removal is just so useful.

    And ele issues are solved by being near revenant. Easy 10 might and perma swift/fury, you have your own defenses anyway. You cant stun lock ele due to stability and evade on stun breaks and they can always mist form behind the tag. Basically your only issue is lack of heals, but again, you walk near tag/out of combat and continue what you were doing before.

    Every time I play ele in both WvW and sPvP it's really just me feeling like I'm getting carried by my team the entire time. I could care less about some artificial numbers on a 3rd party tool that's inflated from hitting downs most of the time, and these downs are even usually generated with the help of the team. Ele is just neither a play maker nor a true team support to me but instead some class that begs for its team to do all the work so it can look at some big numbers and feel like it's doing something.

    In small scale I agree: glass cannon builds dont have high enough burst to compensate for their low mobility/sustain and bruiser builds just dont have damage pressure to handle enemies. But in large scale eles and warrs are what makes plays happen. Warr is the obvious reason due to bubble/boon rip, but ele is often underrated and probably not played properly to its full potential. When you get a ranged squad of 10-15 (mostly revs and eles, but rangers can be quite deadly as well with their 10k autos and unblockable bursts) you can easily control where enemy blob moves with constant meteor spam and they cant do anything against you since you are mobile and have more range than them (unless enemy also has a strong ranged force). In that situation you're the playmaker since it takes only 3-5 good meteors on top of corrupts/bubbles to wipe wipe enemy blob (even if enemy has stronger melee blob that would wipe yours, you have much better ranged damage; I had a blob once with 30 necros and 2 eles that couldnt wipe anything despite having lots of currupts - the damage just wasnt there). I agree that damage is worthless without boon removal and CC, but boon removal/cc are pointless if you have 0 damage pressure, and necros for example have quite lower damage potential than eles/revs.

    There needs to be balance between all these roles in wvw and that balance exists at the moment. The problem is that certain classes have much more roles than other ones and ele's role is based on rng.

    all i got from your post is you're suggesting the following conflicting points:

    1. ele is self sufficient and doesnt need any other classes' help to be effective in wvw
    2. but it just needs a rev
    3. but it also need boon removals from necros/warriors
    4. and heals from zerg (guardian)

    might as well just bring a fb, scourge, and a chrono in your 5~15 man ranged group at this point so you actually get useful boons such as stab/aegis/resistance/quickness and boon removal so your poke actually does something and you can safely MS anytime you want.

    and no the balance is still pretty poor when, in a general, fbs and scourges are still what's making up most of the zerg and those 2 are always required in any zerg (with spellbreaker coming in close as 3rd) whereas all other classes are all nice to haves

    Self sufficient in sense that you don't need a permanent bodyguard like scourge/"melee" rev for heals, cleanses, stun breaks and general boon coverage. Heal can be replaced with going ooc, fury is mostly needed for initial spike (you get fury before fights from revs anyway, that should be enough with raging storm later on) and everyone needs corrupts to do damage, that's not reliance, that's just how wvw works.

    You don't need those classes/boons in ranged party because you almost never get corrupted (or hit by conditions) and when you do, you have your own cleanse. Your biggest enemy as ele is retal, but since you play at high range it's easy to disengage and/or heal up.

    If staff ele could sustain itself with heals, barriers and boons while bringing massive pressure from 1200 range and being almost impossible to fully kill due to mist forms and good sustain it would be rather broken build. I know we're all biased towards ele, but let's be realistic here.

    i am not advocating for a broken build by giving staff eles everything from barriers, heals, boon spam, to boon removal. All i need is for the reward to match the risk or a more even playing field compared to other classes. There's a skill named meteor shower that currently does not have its reward justified for its risk when the ele is running a full dps build while you can run some tank fb/chrono build and afk inside it for the full duration just because you can spam boons with no effort / risk. It's even worse when that single skill basically makes up most of staff ele's damage.

    when bunch of other classes are basically getting everything from heals to boons to boon removal and still doing damage for no effort and little trade off, it is pretty unfair for eles to not have the same luxury. I am only suggesting that Eles will be in much better spot in the meta if they just have the ability to do one of these (boon spam, removal, heal) while still doing damage like everyone else so it's not the only class that's heavily dependent on the team to be able to do anything.

    i am also not opposed to having ele be the support of the team again as long as it's able to compete with meta fb or if anet can somehow manage to tone down all these powercreep on all other classes. There are lots of ways to go about it. Point is, currently eles in wvw is a nice to have and their only viable build is one that requires a lot help more from the team to be effective than other classes' builds, and that's unbalanced to me.

    edit: and all the techniques you mentioned such out of combat heals and minding your positioning so you dont get corrupted can just as easily be applied to other classes including scourges. who said a scourge need a permanent fb bodyguard to be able to do anything? i'd argue a staff ele by itself is the easiest kill and actually the one unable to do anything to any other builds, not scourge. it just happens that a scourge works so well with a fb so they should always stick together

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kako.1930 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    pve for ele has never really been a concern (i.e what this thread is discussing) and spamming aoe in blob v blob of is not really relevant to anything as you don't balance for blob play beyond builds that can shot at a distance.

    This thread was originally several mostly PvP threads that just got merged and shoved here so that no one had to look at them actually. That's why the move was extra frustrating. Most of the people that do post in this echo chamber are primarily AI whackers, so they don't get the original points of the threads.

    Be that as it may, changes made for PVP and WvW affect ELE just as much in PVE, and honestly outside of the same builds used in PVP and WvW ele is and has been in a bad spot in PVE as well, all the nerfs they did to staff made it even worse off than it was. Its still frustrating that almost nothing has changed, no replys have been given from @Gaile Gray.6029 or any other dev in over a month, and inbetween those times we have had several changes that didnt help very much with alot of the things brought up here, id say start posting all over the place again because apparently thats how they listen.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ele is the lowest return on investment class. But if you're truly a god with it, you can do slightly better than commoners.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    i am not advocating for a broken build by giving staff eles everything from barriers, heals, boon spam, to boon removal. All i need is for the reward to match the risk or a more even playing field compared to other classes. There's a skill named meteor shower that currently does not have its reward justified for its risk when the ele is running a full dps build while you can run some tank fb/chrono build and afk inside it for the full duration just because you can spam boons with no effort / risk. It's even worse when that single skill basically makes up most of staff ele's damage.

    And that skill has the highest damage output in whole game, assuming it hits. Enemy zerg doesnt consist of 50 fbs and chronos. Stop trying to make the class look bad by using the worst possible situations that arent even realistic.

    when bunch of other classes are basically getting everything from heals to boons to boon removal and still doing damage for no effort and little trade off, it is pretty unfair for eles to not have the same luxury. I am only suggesting that Eles will be in much better spot in the meta if they just have the ability to do one of these (boon spam, removal, heal) while still doing damage like everyone else so it's not the only class that's heavily dependent on the team to be able to do anything.

    I agree, but ele already has the highest potential damage at the cost of providing support. It also has 2 10-man unblockable and undodgeable CC's that no other class has.

    i am also not opposed to having ele be the support of the team again as long as it's able to compete with meta fb or if anet can somehow manage to tone down all these powercreep on all other classes. There are lots of ways to go about it. Point is, currently eles in wvw is a nice to have and their only viable build is one that requires a lot help more from the team to be effective than other classes' builds, and that's unbalanced to me.

    Idk what game you're playing but on my server when we get around 10 eles on the map every fight is basically won due to huge amount of pressure they provide. Again, scourges also need help from firebrands to be actually useful (ele just needs other classes to be effective, there's difference). Having 20 firebrands is pointless if you have no damage, so they depend on dps classes as well. Everyone depends on everyone, but since sustain is based on heals and boons, classes that provide/remove those will always be mandatory.

    edit: and all the techniques you mentioned such out of combat heals and minding your positioning so you dont get corrupted can just as easily be applied to other classes including scourges. who said a scourge need a permanent fb bodyguard to be able to do anything? i'd argue a staff ele by itself is the easiest kill and actually the one unable to do anything to any other builds, not scourge. it just happens that a scourge works so well with a fb so they should always stick together

    Scourge needs to be in melee for full damage potential (which is again lower than ele's; at max range it's almost half as much damage). Rev has better defenses/mobility, but it has much much lower aoe pressure than both of those. All 3 will melt to proper mirage/DE/DD/SlB nuke, but once ele goes down it can vapor form back, other 2 cant.

    I'm not sure if you're from NA, btu I've heard that they avoid weavers at all costs for some reason, they probably dont understand how to play it and dont know its full potential. On some better eu servers you can see ranged squads quite often and at that point the blob with better ranged squad wins since they have a lot more damage output with 10-20 people than whole melee blob has with 40-50. Ranged squad controls the battlefield, while melee only engages fights on downs that you created. You need them to remove boons from enemy, they need you to kill the enemy since their damage output is low. Idk why people complain about wvw meta when there's perfect synergy and counter mechanics to everything. You can even add a few "focus party" classes (medium+mirage) for even higher advantage over enemy's ranged squad.

    No wonder why people complain about stale meta. I bet most of them haven't even tried anything different than 60 man scourge/fb/spb melee blobs who are trying to do something at 1200 range.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    nobody cares about weaver dps when minstrel fbs and chronos can literally stand inside meteor showers and emote as long as their boons dont get removed by scourges/spellbreakers. weavers are useless without the help of various other meta classes.

    Then you're casting your meteors on wrong targets. You have no business in damaging tanks when your biggest nuke has DR on it. Meteors still hits squishier targets quite hard and those are the enemy damage dealers; remove pressure and enemy supports have nothing to support.

    Supports are useless without damage dealers. Damage output is useless when enemy still rolls over you (there's no boon rip/corrupt/cc). Necros are useless without proper support. It's all team play, no class can work on their own in a wvw blob.

    Staff weaver performs perfectly fine in big zergs, the issue is that lots of skills are worthless/too slow and its main pressure comes from 1 or 2 skills. It makes sense on hammer rev since it doesn't have many dps skills, but ele has like 10-15 of them. The issue is that it's forced into semi support (any water skills, whose heal is quite low on dps builds) in every build so it sustain has to be awful to compensate. The issue is that despite having 95% of damage output from only 3 fire skills, you still need to swap attunements for CC, while almost completely losing damage output (due to damaging skills being unreliable) - with ~15 skills across 4 attunements you're basically doing the same thing rev does with 4 on just 1 weapon. The issue is that self boon sustain is weak/non existing. The issue is that good condi cleanse comes with huge loss in damage (water/arc traits) and/or loss in self sustain (ether renewal is both channel and weak heal; cleansing fire's offensive part has no use, but you're essentially losing a defensive utility skill).

    Winds nerf didn't impact eles negatively, it made all ranged builds better since there's a lot less projectile hate now. Dome wasnt stipping boons after 5 seconds anyway, it was mostly a zone control at that point, which is gone now.

    I'd rather have meteor shower on shorter cooldown, channel time, duration, less hits, but with weapon skills that are more responsive and execute faster instead of waiting 24 seconds to press 5 and run around trying to squeeze 10% of meteors' damage output with my whole kit and pretending I support allies (at least CC is great).

    @certain people in this thread: There's balance issues and l2p issues, don't mistake one for another. Ele is not really designed for spamming 5 buttons off cd like all other classes, so don't treat it like it's made as such. It's supposed to have high effort/reward ratio, but you make it sound like you want reward for no effort by complaining how weak ele is.

    yeah because scourges and firebrands are perfectly balanced where one just has to put down a shade and spam all F keys and wells, and nobody -- from fbs/chronos to squishies including eles can just face tank it, while as fb you just afk until they happened to get your boons removed then you spam utilities skills and pull out your broken tomes.

    keep preaching l2p when the """"learning"""" part is basically you not following the tag and camping at the sides hoping nobody sees and have your zerg do all the work of:
    1. drawing enemy's attention away from you
    2. removing boons for you
    3. buffing you with stability/fury/might/quickness/barriers
    4. ccing enemies for you
    5. removing chill & weakness from you

    no other classes are that reliant on the team and being able to sit in a highly telegraphed, long channeled, high cd skill and barely take a scratch no matter which target or build is quite kitten in my opinion

    After latest patch you don't even need to be part of squad to be effective. You get your own might and fury, it's just a lot slower without rev (who gets permanent boons with no effort). It's not main zerg who's drawing enemy's attention, it's ranged zerg who's damaging and zoning enemy. You're not even in range of enemy boon rips, if you're getting corrupted you're playing backline wrong. While I agree that quickness does make meteor shower a lot more effective, you can get healed from just walking through melee squad; you have your own defensive skills and stability (which you really only need for safe meteor). Chill/weakness is problem of every backline build, not just ele (those traits are quite ridiculous actually; cc reflect, taunt and weakness procs really need to go, or at least have range cap).

    Ele (and shiro rev) is barely reliant on team, that's why it's capable of clouding around enemy with almost no problem. Try doing that on necro and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you can survive retaliation, you don't need your team to babysit you at all.

    That's your opinion, and my opinion is the reverse. There's no way you can get meaningful fury/might/stab yourself unless you sacrifice your defense/offense or exchange one of those boons for the other. The fury from Raging Storm trait is not even real because it requires a critc in the first place and only lasts 2s on a 3s icd. Air trait line is also quite trash compared to Arcane in my opinion because you miss out crucial cd reduction for your attunments, perma swiftness, and need to camp air to be able to move anywhere, but it's still probably personal preference (and no, I'm not wasting time doing the switch build thing just to move around and then switch back every time). The best fury you can get from standard dps staff weaver is from either Unravel or blasting your fire fields with Persisting Flames. Taking Unravel means giving up either mist form or lightning flash and you're that much easier to get caught and die without these 2. The easy 10+ stacks of might from Pyromancer's is just that much better than Persisting Flames it's really not even an option. Having stability for safe MS is quite useful when zergs are constantly moving and there are a lot more opportunities to cast it when you do have it, especially when defending against enemy siege, otherwise it's really just hoping for your zerg to distract enemy's zerg for you again until you can actually use your MS.

    Stay near revs before fights so you get boons. Walk near tag when you get low on hp/boons.

    Necros can poke with their 1200 ranged staff & 900 ranged skills quite well, and they have their own spammable condi clears and barriers to poke if they wanted. Plus, chills & weakness don't affect them as much as it does to power weavers. In fact, no other specialization in the entire game, including core ele and tempest, gets countered by chill as hard as weaver does because that's just how weavers work -- they need to constantly switch attunement to be effective but they also get locked out of all attunements whenever they switch (also why alacrity is so much more effective on weavers). If I see some staff weavers running around by themselves trying to harass our zerg as necro, all I have to do is spam my marks, especially chill & fear on them. There's no way they can channel their meteor shower without getting hit by my shades unless they do the lightning flash/burning retreat trick, and the telegraph of meteor shower is so huge and slow anyways all i have to do is walk out of it and maybe dodge/barrier once to take no damage.

    Their 1200 poke barely does damage, it's mostly used for cc, condi spam or condi transfer. If you walk to them then you're basically dead since other 1200 range classes are much more effective at zoning than necro. You dont play range wars with 1 ele, you do it with 5-15 builds with 1200+ range so gl doing something vs them as necro.

    The only downside I felt when playing necros is their incredibly slow movement because they don't generally have access to perma swiftness and less stunbreaks compared to weavers so it's that much easier for me to get chain cced and killed, but really these 2 issues don't matter as much considering that it's mostly solved by actually being with the tag. I'd also gladly make this trade to be able to just spam skills regardless of targets and still do actual pressure, or play the blood variant where i get to not only play as support that has powerful barriers and incredible rez for my zerg but also still pressure the enemy because boon removal is just so useful.

    And ele issues are solved by being near revenant. Easy 10 might and perma swift/fury, you have your own defenses anyway. You cant stun lock ele due to stability and evade on stun breaks and they can always mist form behind the tag. Basically your only issue is lack of heals, but again, you walk near tag/out of combat and continue what you were doing before.

    Every time I play ele in both WvW and sPvP it's really just me feeling like I'm getting carried by my team the entire time. I could care less about some artificial numbers on a 3rd party tool that's inflated from hitting downs most of the time, and these downs are even usually generated with the help of the team. Ele is just neither a play maker nor a true team support to me but instead some class that begs for its team to do all the work so it can look at some big numbers and feel like it's doing something.

    In small scale I agree: glass cannon builds dont have high enough burst to compensate for their low mobility/sustain and bruiser builds just dont have damage pressure to handle enemies. But in large scale eles and warrs are what makes plays happen. Warr is the obvious reason due to bubble/boon rip, but ele is often underrated and probably not played properly to its full potential. When you get a ranged squad of 10-15 (mostly revs and eles, but rangers can be quite deadly as well with their 10k autos and unblockable bursts) you can easily control where enemy blob moves with constant meteor spam and they cant do anything against you since you are mobile and have more range than them (unless enemy also has a strong ranged force). In that situation you're the playmaker since it takes only 3-5 good meteors on top of corrupts/bubbles to wipe wipe enemy blob (even if enemy has stronger melee blob that would wipe yours, you have much better ranged damage; I had a blob once with 30 necros and 2 eles that couldnt wipe anything despite having lots of currupts - the damage just wasnt there). I agree that damage is worthless without boon removal and CC, but boon removal/cc are pointless if you have 0 damage pressure, and necros for example have quite lower damage potential than eles/revs.

    There needs to be balance between all these roles in wvw and that balance exists at the moment. The problem is that certain classes have much more roles than other ones and ele's role is based on rng.

    all i got from your post is you're suggesting the following conflicting points:

    1. ele is self sufficient and doesnt need any other classes' help to be effective in wvw
    2. but it just needs a rev
    3. but it also need boon removals from necros/warriors
    4. and heals from zerg (guardian)

    might as well just bring a fb, scourge, and a chrono in your 5~15 man ranged group at this point so you actually get useful boons such as stab/aegis/resistance/quickness and boon removal so your poke actually does something and you can safely MS anytime you want.

    and no the balance is still pretty poor when, in a general, fbs and scourges are still what's making up most of the zerg and those 2 are always required in any zerg (with spellbreaker coming in close as 3rd) whereas all other classes are all nice to haves

    Self sufficient in sense that you don't need a permanent bodyguard like scourge/"melee" rev for heals, cleanses, stun breaks and general boon coverage. Heal can be replaced with going ooc, fury is mostly needed for initial spike (you get fury before fights from revs anyway, that should be enough with raging storm later on) and everyone needs corrupts to do damage, that's not reliance, that's just how wvw works.

    You don't need those classes/boons in ranged party because you almost never get corrupted (or hit by conditions) and when you do, you have your own cleanse. Your biggest enemy as ele is retal, but since you play at high range it's easy to disengage and/or heal up.

    If staff ele could sustain itself with heals, barriers and boons while bringing massive pressure from 1200 range and being almost impossible to fully kill due to mist forms and good sustain it would be rather broken build. I know we're all biased towards ele, but let's be realistic here.

    I see no reason why the argument :" high risk=high reward" should be applied only to elementalists , to have a healthy relation between high risk and high reward is surely a sound argument, no complaint there...but the issue here is that only ele seems to follow this ideology

    Even when talking about 1200 range, all other classes offer way safer gameplay for few point more or less than the output of a glass ele and so the question remains : "why is that?"

    Now other than the common :" then go play other professions and leave ele to us pro"...I never seen a very logical answer on these forums

    Other classes dont have as high reward, simple. Besides pvp, ele is currently quite balanced in that regard when it comes to pure damage output. The fact that a hybrid class cant be useful while being played as hybrid is a bit concerning though.

    Its not a good thing that ele is balanced in spvp because all the other classes that are used in spvp are very much over powers in there effect and rolls.

    Even in wvw you find that most ppl are using the over powers classes far more then any thing else to fit one roll or another and in a game like gw2 where the ideal is to play how you want its a real problem.

    Weaver (as we are not going to see core ele or tempest fill a real dmg roll any time soon) dose good max dmg but its only dmg that is viable if it gets ppl off gard. The effects to counter weaver are perma level for cd and duration its only though hard counters that lets weaver do real dmg. Sadly weaver has non of these hard counters and that IS a real problem when it comes to class balancing as you can give up some max dmg and get more consistent dmg from a scroge who has these hard counters.

    When it comes to ele making its own counters to high dmg if falls way behind other classes as a tempest lacks many tools that all but one other support has. The lack of over shields barriers or aegis (means of effects before dmg is taken) puts tempest way behind scorge and FB support. The lack of stab support puts tempest behind scraper FB chron even scrog oddly. The lack of convention of condis puts tempest behind scraper FB and scorge... do you not see a real problem here? Losing out on any 1 of these things puts tempest and realty ele over all at a non use level.

    Weaver and tempest sure can do things in there bubbles of friends but your more or less a drain on the group.

    I said it's balanced everywhere except pvp (and roaming). That everywhere being wvw zergs and pve group content.

    I must of miss read it sry. The thing is ele is balanced in spvp and wvw its just the other classes where given so much power creep (i think we should call it power leap at this point) with added effects tide to there class new elite spec even updating there core classes the balances of the ele class has become the kitten class of gw2.

    It was only dmg that was a bit off balance due to there % mod effects and that was there mostly to keep them a gen class in that they where able to do dmg with out going all in on dmg gear though you could go all in on dmg and push the mod even higher. What ended up happening is the mods % have been nerfed over and over and we have a class that IS balanced with a very out dated set of rules.

    So as things stand there is no point of the game where ele is truly viable over other classes and its still a high risk high skill cap class. Most of its skills are balanced with 2012 set of rules in a sea of 2018 balancing pvp and pve. Its nobble to keep playing ele and holding on to what was once fun and rewarding but its just not there any more and most ele players are fooling them self that because they are able to stack all in dmg gear and get higher dmg then cele builds on other classes that it makes the class viable.

    Ele is the last class of gw2 its just the game we have now is not gw2.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    nobody cares about weaver dps when minstrel fbs and chronos can literally stand inside meteor showers and emote as long as their boons dont get removed by scourges/spellbreakers. weavers are useless without the help of various other meta classes.

    Then you're casting your meteors on wrong targets. You have no business in damaging tanks when your biggest nuke has DR on it. Meteors still hits squishier targets quite hard and those are the enemy damage dealers; remove pressure and enemy supports have nothing to support.

    Supports are useless without damage dealers. Damage output is useless when enemy still rolls over you (there's no boon rip/corrupt/cc). Necros are useless without proper support. It's all team play, no class can work on their own in a wvw blob.

    Staff weaver performs perfectly fine in big zergs, the issue is that lots of skills are worthless/too slow and its main pressure comes from 1 or 2 skills. It makes sense on hammer rev since it doesn't have many dps skills, but ele has like 10-15 of them. The issue is that it's forced into semi support (any water skills, whose heal is quite low on dps builds) in every build so it sustain has to be awful to compensate. The issue is that despite having 95% of damage output from only 3 fire skills, you still need to swap attunements for CC, while almost completely losing damage output (due to damaging skills being unreliable) - with ~15 skills across 4 attunements you're basically doing the same thing rev does with 4 on just 1 weapon. The issue is that self boon sustain is weak/non existing. The issue is that good condi cleanse comes with huge loss in damage (water/arc traits) and/or loss in self sustain (ether renewal is both channel and weak heal; cleansing fire's offensive part has no use, but you're essentially losing a defensive utility skill).

    Winds nerf didn't impact eles negatively, it made all ranged builds better since there's a lot less projectile hate now. Dome wasnt stipping boons after 5 seconds anyway, it was mostly a zone control at that point, which is gone now.

    I'd rather have meteor shower on shorter cooldown, channel time, duration, less hits, but with weapon skills that are more responsive and execute faster instead of waiting 24 seconds to press 5 and run around trying to squeeze 10% of meteors' damage output with my whole kit and pretending I support allies (at least CC is great).

    @certain people in this thread: There's balance issues and l2p issues, don't mistake one for another. Ele is not really designed for spamming 5 buttons off cd like all other classes, so don't treat it like it's made as such. It's supposed to have high effort/reward ratio, but you make it sound like you want reward for no effort by complaining how weak ele is.

    yeah because scourges and firebrands are perfectly balanced where one just has to put down a shade and spam all F keys and wells, and nobody -- from fbs/chronos to squishies including eles can just face tank it, while as fb you just afk until they happened to get your boons removed then you spam utilities skills and pull out your broken tomes.

    keep preaching l2p when the """"learning"""" part is basically you not following the tag and camping at the sides hoping nobody sees and have your zerg do all the work of:
    1. drawing enemy's attention away from you
    2. removing boons for you
    3. buffing you with stability/fury/might/quickness/barriers
    4. ccing enemies for you
    5. removing chill & weakness from you

    no other classes are that reliant on the team and being able to sit in a highly telegraphed, long channeled, high cd skill and barely take a scratch no matter which target or build is quite kitten in my opinion

    After latest patch you don't even need to be part of squad to be effective. You get your own might and fury, it's just a lot slower without rev (who gets permanent boons with no effort). It's not main zerg who's drawing enemy's attention, it's ranged zerg who's damaging and zoning enemy. You're not even in range of enemy boon rips, if you're getting corrupted you're playing backline wrong. While I agree that quickness does make meteor shower a lot more effective, you can get healed from just walking through melee squad; you have your own defensive skills and stability (which you really only need for safe meteor). Chill/weakness is problem of every backline build, not just ele (those traits are quite ridiculous actually; cc reflect, taunt and weakness procs really need to go, or at least have range cap).

    Ele (and shiro rev) is barely reliant on team, that's why it's capable of clouding around enemy with almost no problem. Try doing that on necro and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you can survive retaliation, you don't need your team to babysit you at all.

    That's your opinion, and my opinion is the reverse. There's no way you can get meaningful fury/might/stab yourself unless you sacrifice your defense/offense or exchange one of those boons for the other. The fury from Raging Storm trait is not even real because it requires a critc in the first place and only lasts 2s on a 3s icd. Air trait line is also quite trash compared to Arcane in my opinion because you miss out crucial cd reduction for your attunments, perma swiftness, and need to camp air to be able to move anywhere, but it's still probably personal preference (and no, I'm not wasting time doing the switch build thing just to move around and then switch back every time). The best fury you can get from standard dps staff weaver is from either Unravel or blasting your fire fields with Persisting Flames. Taking Unravel means giving up either mist form or lightning flash and you're that much easier to get caught and die without these 2. The easy 10+ stacks of might from Pyromancer's is just that much better than Persisting Flames it's really not even an option. Having stability for safe MS is quite useful when zergs are constantly moving and there are a lot more opportunities to cast it when you do have it, especially when defending against enemy siege, otherwise it's really just hoping for your zerg to distract enemy's zerg for you again until you can actually use your MS.

    Stay near revs before fights so you get boons. Walk near tag when you get low on hp/boons.

    Necros can poke with their 1200 ranged staff & 900 ranged skills quite well, and they have their own spammable condi clears and barriers to poke if they wanted. Plus, chills & weakness don't affect them as much as it does to power weavers. In fact, no other specialization in the entire game, including core ele and tempest, gets countered by chill as hard as weaver does because that's just how weavers work -- they need to constantly switch attunement to be effective but they also get locked out of all attunements whenever they switch (also why alacrity is so much more effective on weavers). If I see some staff weavers running around by themselves trying to harass our zerg as necro, all I have to do is spam my marks, especially chill & fear on them. There's no way they can channel their meteor shower without getting hit by my shades unless they do the lightning flash/burning retreat trick, and the telegraph of meteor shower is so huge and slow anyways all i have to do is walk out of it and maybe dodge/barrier once to take no damage.

    Their 1200 poke barely does damage, it's mostly used for cc, condi spam or condi transfer. If you walk to them then you're basically dead since other 1200 range classes are much more effective at zoning than necro. You dont play range wars with 1 ele, you do it with 5-15 builds with 1200+ range so gl doing something vs them as necro.

    The only downside I felt when playing necros is their incredibly slow movement because they don't generally have access to perma swiftness and less stunbreaks compared to weavers so it's that much easier for me to get chain cced and killed, but really these 2 issues don't matter as much considering that it's mostly solved by actually being with the tag. I'd also gladly make this trade to be able to just spam skills regardless of targets and still do actual pressure, or play the blood variant where i get to not only play as support that has powerful barriers and incredible rez for my zerg but also still pressure the enemy because boon removal is just so useful.

    And ele issues are solved by being near revenant. Easy 10 might and perma swift/fury, you have your own defenses anyway. You cant stun lock ele due to stability and evade on stun breaks and they can always mist form behind the tag. Basically your only issue is lack of heals, but again, you walk near tag/out of combat and continue what you were doing before.

    Every time I play ele in both WvW and sPvP it's really just me feeling like I'm getting carried by my team the entire time. I could care less about some artificial numbers on a 3rd party tool that's inflated from hitting downs most of the time, and these downs are even usually generated with the help of the team. Ele is just neither a play maker nor a true team support to me but instead some class that begs for its team to do all the work so it can look at some big numbers and feel like it's doing something.

    In small scale I agree: glass cannon builds dont have high enough burst to compensate for their low mobility/sustain and bruiser builds just dont have damage pressure to handle enemies. But in large scale eles and warrs are what makes plays happen. Warr is the obvious reason due to bubble/boon rip, but ele is often underrated and probably not played properly to its full potential. When you get a ranged squad of 10-15 (mostly revs and eles, but rangers can be quite deadly as well with their 10k autos and unblockable bursts) you can easily control where enemy blob moves with constant meteor spam and they cant do anything against you since you are mobile and have more range than them (unless enemy also has a strong ranged force). In that situation you're the playmaker since it takes only 3-5 good meteors on top of corrupts/bubbles to wipe wipe enemy blob (even if enemy has stronger melee blob that would wipe yours, you have much better ranged damage; I had a blob once with 30 necros and 2 eles that couldnt wipe anything despite having lots of currupts - the damage just wasnt there). I agree that damage is worthless without boon removal and CC, but boon removal/cc are pointless if you have 0 damage pressure, and necros for example have quite lower damage potential than eles/revs.

    There needs to be balance between all these roles in wvw and that balance exists at the moment. The problem is that certain classes have much more roles than other ones and ele's role is based on rng.

    all i got from your post is you're suggesting the following conflicting points:

    1. ele is self sufficient and doesnt need any other classes' help to be effective in wvw
    2. but it just needs a rev
    3. but it also need boon removals from necros/warriors
    4. and heals from zerg (guardian)

    might as well just bring a fb, scourge, and a chrono in your 5~15 man ranged group at this point so you actually get useful boons such as stab/aegis/resistance/quickness and boon removal so your poke actually does something and you can safely MS anytime you want.

    and no the balance is still pretty poor when, in a general, fbs and scourges are still what's making up most of the zerg and those 2 are always required in any zerg (with spellbreaker coming in close as 3rd) whereas all other classes are all nice to haves

    Self sufficient in sense that you don't need a permanent bodyguard like scourge/"melee" rev for heals, cleanses, stun breaks and general boon coverage. Heal can be replaced with going ooc, fury is mostly needed for initial spike (you get fury before fights from revs anyway, that should be enough with raging storm later on) and everyone needs corrupts to do damage, that's not reliance, that's just how wvw works.

    You don't need those classes/boons in ranged party because you almost never get corrupted (or hit by conditions) and when you do, you have your own cleanse. Your biggest enemy as ele is retal, but since you play at high range it's easy to disengage and/or heal up.

    If staff ele could sustain itself with heals, barriers and boons while bringing massive pressure from 1200 range and being almost impossible to fully kill due to mist forms and good sustain it would be rather broken build. I know we're all biased towards ele, but let's be realistic here.

    I see no reason why the argument :" high risk=high reward" should be applied only to elementalists , to have a healthy relation between high risk and high reward is surely a sound argument, no complaint there...but the issue here is that only ele seems to follow this ideology

    Even when talking about 1200 range, all other classes offer way safer gameplay for few point more or less than the output of a glass ele and so the question remains : "why is that?"

    Now other than the common :" then go play other professions and leave ele to us pro"...I never seen a very logical answer on these forums

    Other classes dont have as high reward, simple. Besides pvp, ele is currently quite balanced in that regard when it comes to pure damage output. The fact that a hybrid class cant be useful while being played as hybrid is a bit concerning though.

    Its not a good thing that ele is balanced in spvp because all the other classes that are used in spvp are very much over powers in there effect and rolls.

    Even in wvw you find that most ppl are using the over powers classes far more then any thing else to fit one roll or another and in a game like gw2 where the ideal is to play how you want its a real problem.

    Weaver (as we are not going to see core ele or tempest fill a real dmg roll any time soon) dose good max dmg but its only dmg that is viable if it gets ppl off gard. The effects to counter weaver are perma level for cd and duration its only though hard counters that lets weaver do real dmg. Sadly weaver has non of these hard counters and that IS a real problem when it comes to class balancing as you can give up some max dmg and get more consistent dmg from a scroge who has these hard counters.

    When it comes to ele making its own counters to high dmg if falls way behind other classes as a tempest lacks many tools that all but one other support has. The lack of over shields barriers or aegis (means of effects before dmg is taken) puts tempest way behind scorge and FB support. The lack of stab support puts tempest behind scraper FB chron even scrog oddly. The lack of convention of condis puts tempest behind scraper FB and scorge... do you not see a real problem here? Losing out on any 1 of these things puts tempest and realty ele over all at a non use level.

    Weaver and tempest sure can do things in there bubbles of friends but your more or less a drain on the group.

    I said it's balanced everywhere except pvp (and roaming). That everywhere being wvw zergs and pve group content.

    I must of miss read it sry. The thing is ele is balanced in spvp and wvw its just the other classes where given so much power creep (i think we should call it power leap at this point) with added effects tide to there class new elite spec even updating there core classes the balances of the ele class has become the kitten class of gw2.

    It was only dmg that was a bit off balance due to there % mod effects and that was there mostly to keep them a gen class in that they where able to do dmg with out going all in on dmg gear though you could go all in on dmg and push the mod even higher. What ended up happening is the mods % have been nerfed over and over and we have a class that IS balanced with a very out dated set of rules.

    So as things stand there is no point of the game where ele is truly viable over other classes and its still a high risk high skill cap class. Most of its skills are balanced with 2012 set of rules in a sea of 2018 balancing pvp and pve. Its nobble to keep playing ele and holding on to what was once fun and rewarding but its just not there any more and most ele players are fooling them self that because they are able to stack all in dmg gear and get higher dmg then cele builds on other classes that it makes the class viable.

    Ele is the last class of gw2 its just the game we have now is not gw2.

    I agree. Ele is sadly balanced only around pure damage output while other functionalities are severely lacking. If that damage wasnt so trait/stat dependant, ele would be a lot better.

    Deso's favorite FROG
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  • Silence.3702Silence.3702 Member ✭✭✭

    The only problem with Ele is that its being forced to run sage or mender to be viable

    thats poor design

    Cries in ele

  • @Silence.3702 said:
    The only problem with Ele is that its being forced to run sage or mender to be viable

    thats poor design

    thats it in a nutshell. Either give ele an extra 5k hp or extra base heal and the profession is utterly transformed and fixed.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • So, we've created a 13 page insanely long read. Do we have any proof that ANet is doing even the slightest towards these concerns? We've been fooled before only to see mindless number crunching. What is our hint that they are interested in anything that has been said so far in this thread?

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kako.1930 said:

    @Derkon.7408 said:
    So, we've created a 13 page insanely long read. Do we have any proof that ANet is doing even the slightest towards these concerns? We've been fooled before only to see mindless number crunching. What is our hint that they are interested in anything that has been said so far in this thread?

    The hint that they don't care was when they went through all the forums to take down anything that even remotely mentioned ele and either merged them into this abomination of an echo chamber or deleted them. There was just confusion from other eles who didn't know the backstory of the thread and assumed the devs were actually seeking feedback, and they kept posting here thinking that someone was reading what they were writing.

    If they don't come up with something major in the next balance patch then it's basically confirmed that they haven't been listening. I was willing to give them a pass in the previous two balance patches because one of them was a minor balance pass, while the other one came too soon after this amalgamation of threads was made. It has already been over a year since PoF release. How long does it have to take for a class to become decent in a game mode? Should we give them two years? Or maybe they think that the next elite spec will fix things? The next elite spec is not coming any time soon, especially since season 5 LW comes before the next expansion. If the next elite spec is supposed to fix things, it will be a looooong wait. And that's assuming that it's even possible to come up with an elite spec that makes ele good in PvP and roaming, because the dependancy on sustain stats is inbuilt to the core of the class.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Needs some survival tools on fire and air so eles don't depend on water arcane and needs some survival tools on weapon skills - sword was a step in the right direction.
    Boon uptime could use an buff or a nerf on other professions, since some professions have more boon uptime than an ele with sigil and rune of %boon duration.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Derkon.7408 said:
    So, we've created a 13 page insanely long read. Do we have any proof that ANet is doing even the slightest towards these concerns? We've been fooled before only to see mindless number crunching. What is our hint that they are interested in anything that has been said so far in this thread?

    Desperate and blind Faith in the improbable. This thread is a wailing wall.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    I think that increasing the base HP would already be an utopian stuff for ele.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2018

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    Ele is the lowest return on investment class. But if you're truly a god with it, you can do slightly better than commoners.

    Or you can go the easy way, play any other profession, and perform far above most players with far less effort.

    @reikken.4961 said:
    This is an old thread and incredibly long, and I doubt anyone is reading it anymore, so I'll keep this short and only touch briefly on one point.

    The problem with ele, as I've said before, is that it doesn't have anything baseline. Nothing.

    Mesmer has illusions, guardian has virtues, necromancer has shroud, etc. So that no matter how they build they have some strong baseline tools to use. Elementalist has, what, attunements? Except that's it's a replacement for weapon swapping. It's already a tradeoff since you can't change weapon paradigms, like thief swapping from daggers to shortbow. An ele on daggers is stuck being close range. An ele on staff is stuck with a slow unweildy weapon unsuited for close quarters and evasive single targets. It's not a baseline tool like every other class has. And perhaps more importantly it doesn't offer any extra utility without being traited. Which would be fine concept: class power is a blank slate that accepts traits. Except every other class can trait their baseline mechanics too, so ele is still left behind.

    Anyway, the result of this lacking anything baseline is that all ele builds either have to check the same few boxes before getting to the rest of the build, if there's even any budget left in the build, or they're one trick builds with no versatility, like the pve dps builds. that do literally nothing but dps and are useless in all other regards. or the recently nerfed pvp burst weaver build that did nothing but instant burst someone if it caught them off guard but had no answer to receiving any kind of pressure.

    Yeah, attunements aren't "enough" as a mechanic. Elementalists need something more, which doesn't need to be a different entity, it could be included inside the attunement mechanic. For example, an advanced combo system, where you're encouraged to swap attunements to get the best combos. Or chains and channels that don't get interrupted when you switch attunement. There's so many possibilities to make attunement more interesting, instead of just a glorified weapon swap.

    By the way, here's a few elementalist redesign ideas.

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    I think that increasing the base HP would already be an utopian stuff for ele.

    Yup, if we aren't getting DPS buffs any time soon, at least give us the right amount of health. It's incredible that mesmers have more health than us, when they have much more mobility and escaping tricks.

  • Just looking at the first page of threads for each profession and apart from fashion wars discussions, none of them are even remotely close to the number of replies and views that have been made on this thread.
    This really makes the cynic in me believe what some people are stating here, that Anet isn't concerned with the Elem class problems.
    Not a constructive comment from me, just a personal observation and opinion.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2018

    Concerning conjures:
    If we compare them with engineer kits, we see the differences are

    • Conjures aren't instant cast
    • Conjures themselves have a cd
    • Conjures can be shared

    Many in this thread has suggested that we convert conjures into kits, and in that process we would lose these unique functionalities. Therefore I want to propose another option:

    1. Conjures break stun upon activation.

    This gives the skill instant value on your bar, with alot of added utility on demand. This alone gives us a reason to equip them since they would already be one of the better picks, and a ton more useful under pressure.

    1. The different conjures yield a respective aura when the picked up.

    This means:

    • Lava axe gets fire aura
    • Earth shield gets magnetic aura
    • Frost bow get frost aura
    • Lightning hammer gets shocking aura
    • Fiery greatsword should receive the "Fire Up" effect instead of axe
    1. Since conjures are designed to be shared, we should keep this mechanic, but be able to choose whether we want to aid an ally or use it ourselves by automatically equipping it when you are within range of it's spawn AoE (meaning you drop it on yourself if you need it, or away from you for an ally) instead of summoning 2 conjures.

    These changes would create alot of synergies across traitlines, with aurashare, tempest auras, weaver rotations and a great choice for core elementalists.

    Using conjures would now get you back in the fight, with a little 4 second boost and a whole new kit to use while your weapon skills come off cooldown.

    Edit: If this gives ele too many stunbreaks, consider removing the breaks upon overload for all attunements except earth - tempest stunbreak capabilities has been over the top since it's release anyways. If eles still want a stunbreak on overload they just have to trait accordingly, with Harmonious Conduit, which in turn will make it competitive within it's tier.

    It would also be beneficial to lower all cooldowns on these weapons, including the cooldown on the conjure itself - allowing you to quickly cycle through the skills once then drop the conjure, in order to make them more situational. Naturally then the conjure uptime should also be nerfed (10 sec active, 25 sec cd upon unequip?)

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Or give ele higher Boon duration/attack power by default. I mean all classes should have same base total stats by default. Some might have more vit/toughness, others could have more precision/whatever.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2018

    Made an extra post by mistake.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    Give up. The class has been abandoned.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Dahir.4158 said:
    Give up. The class has been abandoned.

    Most have as rev and eng makes a far better ele or mage class then ele dose now (rev for ranged mage dmg and eng for mages support). Its realty just animations that holding back the ideal of "mages" from them. If you make the hammer bolt into a fire ball and eng med kit 1 into a water ball you would have no ideal they where not mages. On the flip side if you made ele fire ball into a hammer bullet or arrow you would have no ideal that ele was realty a mages.

    The lack of mages like effect boon contorl, real condi effect, dmg that gets arone armor and blocks makes ele just a pure physical class with mages like animations. A ranger with a bow whom arrows are on fire but do not burn in effect.

    As a player base if talking about it on the forms is not doing any thing action may be the next best thing to get a real update to the class. I suggest stop playing ele at all points of the game rev / eng fill the mages roll far better and play a lot like ele. Anet has a real problem about balancing base off the number of population playing the class. If ppl stop playing ele it will get a buff. Sadly this seems to be the only chose now.

    http://gph.is/18Sfht9 Finally somebody who gets it!

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Milosz.5938Milosz.5938 Member ✭✭
    edited November 5, 2018

    Trolo lolo lo
    And I'm horse if anything will change soo ele can survive in PVE..... trolo lolo lo ... ANET thank that you have d... i... a... elementalists. I lost hope for that and started playing holosmith. And I strongly adviced to do the same maybe then someone in ANET will start to think about eles.

    I feel like Boon Master. No! Wait! I'm elementalist...

  • Oli.4597Oli.4597 Member ✭✭

    This is from PvE PoV
    Sooo, let me quote something from the July 10th Balance Patch ...
    "Core engineer gameplay has had a complex condition-damage rotation for a long time, which paid off with solid damage output. That has fallen off in part due to condition damage tweaks over time and other condition builds eclipsing it by nature of their simplicity."

    Complex Rotation thinks about weavers
    Lets make a new Balancenote...

    "Weaver gameplay has had a complex power-damage rotation for a long time, which paid off with solid damage output. That has fallen off in part due to power damage tweaks over time and other power builds eclipsing it by nature of their simplicity."

    Deadeye anyone? Im still looking for a written Rotation there, with pressing 5111151111 and doing more dmg then weaver going creazy with all skills used and attunement swaps which also must be well timed.

    Many others already said it. The Dmg output from weaver is NOT good. It just ... feels not really rewarding for doing such a complex rotation.
    Other classes have more space for fails inside their Rotation while Ele has not. Ele has a fast timed Rotation and lose much dps if you are failing.
    Other Classes are just better overall, for doing massiv dmg while bring tons of CC with you and have more sustain.
    Ele doesnt compensate the lack of low CC or surviveability in terms of Dmg.

    I rarely play PvP, but ...correct me if im wrong, power weaver/Ele/Tempest is nonexisting there? Good luck with power 12k Hp running in Condi Bomb and stay perma watter attuned D:
    I only see tanky healing weavers etc. cause other options arnt viable.

    I also like the other Ideas that were already said (Conjure, Aura changes etc) wont say more about these because i share their ideas.
    Just wanted to emphasize the bad state Ele is in.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Staff is good in pve because it's a power weapon thus easily enhanced by traits/amulet/runes/sigils... Other weapons do hybrid damage making it harder to maximise damage on those. It is possible, but to reach their full potential you basicaly sacrifice every survivability option. And the class has no built in survivability option by default.

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Biotuful even here. Devs answering and nothing in Theif forum. Wondeful.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2018

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    Biotuful even here. Devs answering and nothing in Theif forum. Wondeful.

    The only dev response to this thread was when it was merged, last time Ele actually had a dev comment on anything on this subject forum was September last year, however Devs have spoken on the thief side this year multiple times.

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    they told us they know about a bug on DE that was all and that they are gonna fix it

  • @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    Biotuful even here. Devs answering and nothing in Theif forum. Wondeful.

    Sorry man but about thief's problems you should write in thief's forum... better do not mix all things together a specially if ANET has problems to see even one thing in the same time. Too many problems in the same forum and in the same time can be impossible to solve to them.

    I feel like Boon Master. No! Wait! I'm elementalist...

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm still concerned.

  • Oli.4597Oli.4597 Member ✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    I'm still concerned.

    So am I, lets see for the patch today, maybe something will happen today. Should be Balance Patch too aight?
    At lest they said last time its only a "small" Balance Patch inbetween which leads to the conclusion that a "normal" or more bigger one will follow.
    Idk tho, lets just all hope that sooner or later something will happen.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oli.4597 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    I'm still concerned.

    So am I, lets see for the patch today, maybe something will happen today. Should be Balance Patch too aight?
    At lest they said last time its only a "small" Balance Patch inbetween which leads to the conclusion that a "normal" or more bigger one will follow.
    Idk tho, lets just all hope that sooner or later something will happen.

    I think balance patch will be next week or the week after. Today's patch should be about runes/sigils revamp.

  • I hate to suggest weapon swapping on an already-complex class, but I would /really/ like to have a ranged option when using sword. The only thing I can do if running around with bounties and getting phase-shifted into range is drop an ice bow and hope I don't get downed or somebody doesn't pick up the other one so I can keep holding one until it recharges. And that requires a utility slot to be expended on a frankly disappointing 'weapon.'

    It doesn't have to be weapon-swapping, but some way to extend my range, even temporarily, without a utility slot sacrificed would be a godsend.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Still no real fix and maybe a real nerf from this patch.

    Stop playing ele your only doing more harm to the class playing it now.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

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