Concerns about Elementalist - Page 14 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Concerns about Elementalist

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  • primatos.5413primatos.5413 Member ✭✭✭

    C´mon @ Anet .. here u can see almost everything what needs to be done about ele .. do it !

  • Just to keep adding to the pile... Anet Employee: " lets make a mage class where they use 4 elements, are the jack of all trades, and have the lowest inherent defenses that can only be used effectively when comboing all the elements together. But heres the kicker, lets only allow them to spec into 1-2 of the elements at a time so the majority of the skills are useless."

  • @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    lets only allow them to spec into 1-2 of the elements at a time so the majority of the skills are useless."

    Isn't it a bit of an overstatement? Surely, specing some element make it quite better, but not that much to call a non-specced element "useless".

  • Aky.2095Aky.2095 Member
    edited January 28, 2019

    Suggestion:

    • Make attunement swap traits a core mechanic of elementalists (in base game traits, Fire/Water/Earth/Air/Arcane)
    • Reduce base damage/heal/duration of attunement swap effects by 50%
    • Replace current attunement swap traits with a 100% boost of the core mechanic

    Example:

    • Water always heals the base amount, but with water traits it heals 100% more (Healing Ripple)
    • Fire swap always damages nearby foes and creates an aura, but with fire traits it will be 100% more damage/duration (Sunspot)
    • Air always causes a bolt of lightning, but with air traits it will deal 100% more damage (Electric Dicharge)
    • Earth always cripples and damage nearby foes, but with earth traits it will be 100% longer duration/damage (Earthen Blast)
    • Arcane always provides a self-boon at base duration, but with arcane traits it will be AoE and 100% longer duration (Elemental Attunement)

    This will help achieving:

    • Getting at least 50% of an attunement's swap effect even if you didn't spec the specific trait line
    • More build flexibility because some of these trait lines will be less of a requirement and allow more room for experimenting with less popular trait lines

    I've been a long time Elementalist player since GW1 (E/Me) and also Ele in GW2 since the first day back in 2012, good times.

    The elementalist used to be a nuking class, just like sorcerers/mages in other games, and I believe it has been reduced to a wet-noodle-damage bunker in sPvP because the high damage variants are not actually viable in higher tiers of sPvP play (although I can have a good time in unranked), unlike GW1 or other PvP games where the mage classes do just fine on the damage department, even in higher levels of PvP. While this suggestion does not aggressively push damage numbers to the top or asks for damage buffs on nuking skills, I believe it improves the overall state of elementalist by allowing a little more variance in trait lines and opens up the way to experimenting with different element traits in sPvP.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2019

    Still nothing from anet ele is nearly a non viable class out side of "fun" play at this point. Lets keep this going and at the top so at least anet cant say they read these forms with out seeing this. Also throwing on @ an anet dev. (not sure if that works the way i think it dose) may show them this is still alive.

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's been almost 6 months...

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You know, it takes some time to implement all the good ideas we suggested.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2019

    Ele was made needlessly complex in an effort to make it "unique" and create "scaling difficulty" for professions instead. "Balance" against other professions was not the main thought process behind certain designs, although the devs knew more straight forward, and simpler designs, also required skill to compete at higher levels (see below)... but they went a different route...

    "Tap: Based on the progression of the class reveals, it’s apparent the difficulty has begun to scale, with the latest classes being the most complex. Is it fair to say that some classes will be easy to master and some difficult, or is this assessment too simple? Was it always ArenaNet’s intention to have some classes seen as ‘easy’ and some ‘difficult?’

    Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up. Elementalists, for example, are relatively easy to master – or, rather, they’re easy to learn – but there is a lot of depth to them as well. Though some of this comes down to the utility skills you are picking.

    We said the engineer is very complex because his complexity limit is very high, but you could run an engineer with simpler utility skills and fewer kits which would make it a relatively straightforward class. There would still be a lot of decision making, but it is true that some classes are intended to be a little more straightforward.
    We often get people saying “As a warrior, all I do is build up my adrenaline and hit stuff,” when there is actually a lot involved in what you’re doing. The warrior is intended to be a profession that you can look at and understand, whereas with the guardian you’re actively managing when you can be in and out of battle in a much more complex way, because you actually have to make decisions to keep yourself safe. The warrior’s decisions are more damage and control and less support, so he is making fewer survivability decisions. That’s one of the key elements to what makes a profession easy to play; how survivable it is.

    A player that doesn’t know what they are doing — who is only hitting random skills — as long as that profession can keep them alive long enough to kill the creature they are fighting, that is naturally an easier profession. For example, the thief can’t really use random skills as much as the warrior, but in some respects has more survivability than the warrior once you know what you’re doing. On the flip side, the complexity of the warrior is in a different place. Maybe not as important in PVE, but more important in PVP. To some extent it depends on what part of the game you are playing."

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic, and this has some people concerned. Can you assuage these fears by talking about some things which make the warrior very challenging to play and give it a high skill cap?

    Jon P: The warrior’s strength is mainly focused on its melee attacks, but knowing where to be on the battlefield, at a high level, is probably the most difficult thing. To get to a very acceptable, competent level with the warrior, yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him. He takes positioning — the thing that makes a warrior — to a level no one else does."

    Long story short... "Unique" and "scaling difficulty" was more important than balance, and that's why there are major issues when it come to wvw and spvp.

    And this video sums up the Ele design, and the state of some other profession designs too...

  • I'm actually more afraid that they will indeed decide to do some radical changes. And will turn ele in some face-rolling, mundane as a nail profession, like most of others atm. Anet, just a few touches here and there, some buffs, some traits rearranging is enough. No need for anything radical, pls.

  • What I can say ..... trololololo ... playing elementalist it's kind of new game. You have many kinds of simluators. Simulator of farmining, simulator of goat and soo on. So here you have simulator of elemantalist which you can rename "simluator of dying". And what you can say at the end of your "adventure" with elementalist - trololololo. And of course some other few words... depence of your native language. This is the only solution because noone, absolutly noone from ANET, Devs, UFO, E.T. etc... enter and try to read in this forum.

    I feel like Boon Master. No! Wait! I'm elementalist...

  • I believe i read the entire thread, but i don't remember seeing anything like this, so here goes...

    I'd like to see the the trait lines completely changed from "choose which element you buff" to "choose which role you want to play"
    we could have one trait line for aoe bursts, conditions and soft CC, one for high damage on single targets and ways to disabling them, one for defense/tanking/sustainability, and one for support, healing and overall sharing with allies.
    The current traits allow to choose these roles, but they are also tied to their elements, so the overall damage boost we get from fire traits are available only with fire skills, making use of the other attunements strictly situational, for example.
    the arcane trait line could be tweaked to be more centered about the core gameplay mechanics, as it has already been proposed, by getting all the utility enhancing traits in this line.

    Since any ele is able to swap to any element at will, i feel like having to invest in specific elements seems redundant and stupid, from a design point of view.
    Choosing which kind of role you want to play seems to me more what an ele should be able to do.
    And it would be more interesting when choosing an elite spec too, since these specs modify the gameplay.

    I suppose this would bring the oh so abhorrent (un)holy trinity to the class, but being able to do just a little of everything makes the ele too irrelevant in my opinion.
    this comes from someone who plays almost only elementalist on PvE, even though i have a lvl80 toon for each class.

    Doug Warobaz - Norn To Be Alive [NtbA]

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dahir.4158 said:

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    You know, it takes some time to implement all the good ideas we suggested.

    Does it also "take some time" to write a few words to explain what is going on?

    Apparently. There's no time to waste. Ele really needs it. I bet they don't even sleep.

    Or maybe they forgot about this thread.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019

    @Warobaz.9543 said:
    I believe i read the entire thread, but i don't remember seeing anything like this, so here goes...

    I'd like to see the the trait lines completely changed from "choose which element you buff" to "choose which role you want to play"
    we could have one trait line for aoe bursts, conditions and soft CC, one for high damage on single targets and ways to disabling them, one for defense/tanking/sustainability, and one for support, healing and overall sharing with allies.
    The current traits allow to choose these roles, but they are also tied to their elements, so the overall damage boost we get from fire traits are available only with fire skills, making use of the other attunements strictly situational, for example.
    the arcane trait line could be tweaked to be more centered about the core gameplay mechanics, as it has already been proposed, by getting all the utility enhancing traits in this line.

    Since any ele is able to swap to any element at will, i feel like having to invest in specific elements seems redundant and stupid, from a design point of view.
    Choosing which kind of role you want to play seems to me more what an ele should be able to do.
    And it would be more interesting when choosing an elite spec too, since these specs modify the gameplay.

    I suppose this would bring the oh so abhorrent (un)holy trinity to the class, but being able to do just a little of everything makes the ele too irrelevant in my opinion.
    this comes from someone who plays almost only elementalist on PvE, even though i have a lvl80 toon for each class.

    There has been similar suggestions, but not in identical format. Being able to improve specific attunement and its skills is good, but benefiting from traits while being attuned only to that element is not, especially because base values are quite low to begin with. If there were more global traits, ele would be much more balanced and interesting to play.

    Think of it this way - specializing into fire should improve your offensive capabilities in both damage and support regardless of current attunement, but it should also add a bit of spice to fire related skills. Currently we only have the second option which means that our damage output is quite low without fire spec due to low base damage and huge reliance on damage modifiers.

    Another option is to improve even other attunement skills (another fire spec example) : trait that procs might/burn every time you chill, daze, cripple or blind an enemy. That's definition of mastering elements for me, not what we have currently.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    I saw in today's patch notes that new profession descriptions were created. Unfortunately, I don't have an open character slot to check and the wiki hasn't been updated. Could someone kindly provide a brief summary for me?

    Update: Here are the descriptions for anyone interested.

    Warrior
    Favors Melee • High Survivability • Weaponsmaster
    Warriors build their adrenaline by successfully striking an enemy, then expend it to unleash devastating burst attacks. Warriors are versatile and resilient fighters.

    Thief
    Favors Melee • Stealth and Evasion • Acrobatic Combat
    Thieves manage their initiative during combat, expending it to unleash carefully timed attacks. What they lack in defense, they make up for with skills to debilitate, teleport, or vanish from sight.

    Guardian
    Favors Melee • Supports Allies • Defensive Magic
    Guardians gain powerful personal enhancements from their virtues, which they can briefly expend to aid friends or damage foes. Formidable on their own, guardians shine brightest in the company of allies.

    Mesmer
    Favors Ranged • Creates Illusions • Finesse and Misdirection
    Masters of magical misdirection, mesmers create and shatter clones and illusions of themselves in battle. Mesmers rely on evasion and subterfuge requiring finesse and practice to perfect.

    Elementalist
    Favors Ranged • Elemental Magic • Versatile Caster
    Elementalists harness the power of the four elements—water, earth, fire, and air—to cast powerful spells. Their ability to change their elemental attunement midcombat is versatile but difficult to master.

    Ranger
    Favors Ranged • Pet Companion • Naturalist
    Rangers tame a variety of pet companions to complement their fighting style. Rounding out their arsenal with traps, nature spirits, and survival skills, they have the tools to take on any type of foe.

    Necromancer
    Favors Ranged • Summons Minions • Dark Magic
    Necromancers of Tyria are monsters on the battlefield, draining life force from their enemies and entering a death shroud that temporarily grants them powerful abilities and protects them from harm.

    Engineer
    Melee or Ranged • Gadgets, Turrets, and Toolkits • Technomancer
    Engineers are jacks-of-all-trades and, with enough time, masters of many. Able to bring dozens of abilities and toolbelt skills to a fight, their art is in choosing the right one to utilize at the perfect time.

    Revenant
    Melee or Ranged • Invokes Legendary Heroes • Magic-Wielding Fighter
    Revenants invoke the power of legendary heroes from Tyria's past, spending their own energy to channel the abilities used by those figures. They are reliable allies and dangerous enemies.

    (Not aimed at you at all Clownmug just wanted to give you credit for posting it on the forms thank you.)

    So i guess this is a thing i am at a lost what casting a spell is in gw2 and what is defin as a powerful spell in that. Why is atument swapping called Versatile Caster but wepon swap is not. What is earth magic in gw2 because it dose not seem to be magic at all and over all most of the "spell" are just reskin animations with nearly the same effects from atument to atument.

    I guess at least jacks-of-all-trades burden is gone from ele mind set lets hope its balances with out it in mind.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:
    I'm actually more afraid that they will indeed decide to do some radical changes. And will turn ele in some face-rolling, mundane as a nail profession, like most of others atm. Anet, just a few touches here and there, some buffs, some traits rearranging is enough. No need for anything radical, pls.

    I am sorry but no, I think ele does need a drastic change. You can't make a profession that does a little bit of everything while forcing them to be super specialized in a single attunement and having others classes with more defined roles. An elementalist that does a little bit of everything will never replace a druid in a group. And when you already have a druid, why would you want a tiny bit more healing from the elementalist? That's why we need to be specialized. Attunements shouldn't do different things from one another. Our build should define what we do, and attunements should give us different tools to do this. If we specialize in DPS, all attunements need to help us to achieve that in some way. Our fire trait line shouldn't just improve fire, it should give offensive capabilities to all atunements, pushing us to rotate between all of them in order to maximize our DPS or react to different situations. An easyer way to do that would be to have "base" roles to each attunement, making all of them useful in specific situations: Water would condi cleanse and provide some personnal healing, earth would focus on combo finishers, fire on raw damage and air on targetted disables. Then, the traitlines we take should add to this: For example, taking a specific talent in the fire traitline may deal a flame burst around you every time you cleanse a condition or heal 1k health on yourself, making it worth it to swap to water in a DPS build if the situation requires it. That was just an idea and it's clearly not perfect, but that is what I think we should move towards.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    I am sorry but no, I think ele does need a drastic change. You can't make a profession that does a little bit of everything while forcing them to be super specialized in a single attunement and having others classes with more defined roles. An elementalist that does a little bit of everything will never replace a druid in a group. And when you already have a druid, why would you want a tiny bit more healing from the elementalist?

    Mb because druid can mess it up/occur to be not very well familiar with how to play druid/too drunk or lazy/just get affected by a network lag and screw it up? Why is it bad to have a back up healer which can also bring in a lot of punch potential? That niche role works quite well for Zenyatta and Lucio in Overwatch, for example. Also, must note that what I'll be saying below is said from a perspective of someone who plays Openworld PvE mostly, and uses d/d as weapons exclusively (for the life of mine I couldn't make myself to like staff or scepeter/focus, they seem so dull and slow, and "laggy" when compared to d/d mobility and thrill of jumping into close combat and wrecking havoc with Churning earth and Air and FGS :) )

    Yes, you can object, saying that in an ideal group there will always be most qualified people that train day and night together and can be 100% sure about their performance as a collective - but what percentage of the real in-game "group adventures" does those done by close to ideal groups who got their hands on a specialized and highly-trained druid in all their runs does constitute? Note I'm using a general term "group adventures" here which includes (but is not limited to) any kind of ad-hoc collective escapade, from some randomly assembled party of strangers roaming maps in open world pve to low-level raids and fractals to casual roams in WvW by some guld members who don't specialize in it. I have strong suspicion your argument will only stand for niche hard-core communities constituting a very small percentage of GW2 players, and most of groups could still will benefit from a backup healer. I personally use Water a lot in open-world pve, both for self-sustain (to heal myself in a battle which took too long for me to burn through my HP to a threatening levels) and to assist people who happened to be around.

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    That's why we need to be specialized. Attunements shouldn't do different things from one another. Our build should define what we do, and attunements should give us different tools to do this. If we specialize in DPS, all attunements need to help us to achieve that in some way. Our fire trait line shouldn't just improve fire, it should give offensive capabilities to all atunements, pushing us to rotate between all of them in order to maximize our DPS or react to different situations.
    Water would condi cleanse and provide some personnal healing, earth would focus on combo finishers, fire on raw damage and air on targetted disables.

    And how is it drastically different from the current situation? In d/d I have water where I can condition cleanse (OH dagger 5) and heal yourself, while applying some soft-control condis on enemies close to me (another option to protect myself while my HP are at threatening levels) - and still do a little bit of damage while at it. In Earth I have blast combo finishers ( OH dagger 4 and 5), and I have crowd control tools both in Earth (4) and Air (5 and 3, to some extent). Could you elaborate, perhaps, as of now it seems you only unsatisfied with how Water works from damage-dealing perspective, and it's not clear what you see as an issue in other 3 attunements. And even if water is really that big of an issue on itself atm, why do we need to drastically change the whole profession? Why not bump the water weapon skills a bit and/or reshuffle/bump related traits in its (and perhaps other) spec lines?

    What I want to say is not that Ele doesn't need some change, but that it don't need to be changed completely. Such kind of change seem to me much worse threat to the profession I enjoy playing than the current situation, as odds are high we all will get something nobody will enjoy anymore. So there needs to be pretty good reasons for such kind of change (specifically, any changes that involve complete re-shuffling/redesigning weapon skills), and I haven't so far seen ones I can consider as such, sorry. The last thing I would like to see are completely redesigned are weapon skills everybody is already accustomed to, even worse - simplified and dumbed down for an average Joe. As long as it's just some multipliers' changes and addition of a few useful effects/fields to certain skills, it's okay - but nothing more radical than this. Same goes for all core utility skills. Ideally, all changes should be limited to specializations alone.

  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    I am sorry but no, I think ele does need a drastic change. You can't make a profession that does a little bit of everything while forcing them to be super specialized in a single attunement and having others classes with more defined roles. An elementalist that does a little bit of everything will never replace a druid in a group. And when you already have a druid, why would you want a tiny bit more healing from the elementalist?

    Mb because druid can mess it up/occur to be not very well familiar with how to play druid/too drunk or lazy/just get affected by a network lag and screw it up? Why is it bad to have a back up healer which can also bring in a lot of punch potential? That niche role works quite well for Zenyatta and Lucio in Overwatch, for example. Also, must note that what I'll be saying below is said from a perspective of someone who plays Openworld PvE mostly, and uses d/d as weapons exclusively (for the life of mine I couldn't make myself to lie staff or scepeter/focus, they seem so dull and slow, and "laggy" when compared to d/d mobility and thrill of jumping into close combat and wrecking havoc with Churning earth and Air and FGS :) )

    Yes, you can object, saying that in an ideal group there will always be most qualified people that train day and night together and can be 100% sure about their performance as a collective - but what percentage of the real in-game "group adventures" does those done by close to ideal groups who got their hands on a specialized and highly-trained druid in all their runs does constitute? Note I'm using a general term "group adventures" here which includes (but is not limited to) any kind of ad-hoc collective escapade, from some randomly assembled party of strangers roaming maps in open world pve to low-level raids and fractals to casual roams in WvW by some guld members who don't specialize in it. I have strong suspicion your argument will only stand for niche hard-core communities constituting a very small percentage of GW2 players, and most of groups could still will benefit from a backup healer. I personally use Water a lot in open-world pve, both for self-sustain (to heal myself in a battle which took too long for me to burn through my HP to a threatening levels) and to assist people who happened to be around.

    But we are not in Overwatch, and I rarely have a druid who can't handle their group without help. And these usually learn to do so over time, so is turning the elementalist into a class that only works at lower skill levels really what you want?

    @ROMANG.1903 said:
    That's why we need to be specialized. Attunements shouldn't do different things from one another. Our build should define what we do, and attunements should give us different tools to do this. If we specialize in DPS, all attunements need to help us to achieve that in some way. Our fire trait line shouldn't just improve fire, it should give offensive capabilities to all atunements, pushing us to rotate between all of them in order to maximize our DPS or react to different situations.
    Water would condi cleanse and provide some personnal healing, earth would focus on combo finishers, fire on raw damage and air on targetted disables.

    And how is it drastically different from the current situation? In d/d I have water where I can condition cleanse and heal yourself, while applying some soft-control condis on enemies close to me (another option to protect myself while my HP are at threatening levels) - and still do a little bit of damage while at it. In Earth I have blast combo finishers ( d/d 4 and 5), and I have crowd control tools both in Earth (4) and Air (5 and 3, to some extent). Could you elaborate, perhaps, as of now it seems you only unsatisfied with how Water works from damage-dealing perspective, and it's not clear what you see as an issue in other 3 attunements. And even if water is really that big of an issue on itself atm, why do we need to drastically change the whole profession? Why not bump the water weapon skills a bit and reshuffle/bump related traits in its (and perhaps other) spec lines?

    You ignored the rest of my post.

    What I want to say is not that Ele doesn't need some change, but that it don't need to be changed completely. Such kind of change seem to me much worse threat to the profession I enjoy playing than the current situation, as odds are high we all will get something nobody will enjoy anymore. So there needs to be pretty good reason for such kind of change (specifically, any changes that involve complete re-shuffling/redesigning of weapon skills), and I haven't so far seen ones I can consider as such, sorry. The last thing I would like to see completely redesigned are weapon skills everybody is already accustomed to. As long as it's just some multiplies changes and adding of a few useful effects/fields it's okay, but nothing more radical than this. Same goes for all core utility skills. Ideally, all changes should be limited to specializations alone.

    Some weapon skills should go. Lightning strike on scepter offers nothing interesting, it's just something you must spam. Merging that damage into the auto attack would open up for a new interesting skill... All aura weapon skills need to be replaced, because they offer nothing interesting. What would be interesting for example is to have to do the work ourselves, to place combos and finishers in order to get a specific auras, and auras should be buffed in consequence.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    My brief list of how we could make Ele better without any radical risky things (mostly repeating ideas mentioned by others anyway):

    1. Buff to auras, they are of no use atm, offer nothing what would be worth of specifically trying to bestow them to your teammates, they are too short-living and insignificant
    2. Changes to how conjures work. First of all, make them function as a Glypgh, so that all your 4 basic conjures would take a single utility slot and you can choose the one you need by switching attainments - I actually have no idea why it's not like that from the start, as it goes extremely well with the general vibe of this profession (an endless versatility and tons of options, at any time, at a cost of more complex management). Then, also move away from them being just a bundle which replaces your weapon skills and won't allow you to access them until dropped. I would go with something like conjured weapon being a swappable weapon, so after using few skills of it you need, you could just swap it away, getting access to your basic skills again - and then swap to conjured weapon again when it's recharged by using the regular swap weapon hotkey - until it lasts. Conjured weapon should still be dropped on the ground as they do now, but just for other players if they will want to use it, it will still work as a bundle for them, lasting 30 seconds; Ele themselves won't need it, the weapon they will get will last full 60 seconds. The skill used to conjure should recharge in 30 seconds, instead of 1 minute currently; if a new weapon is conjured before previous has expired, it will substitute it - so, ele could, for example, "pre-conjure" the Shield or the Bow, use a couple of skills, swap them away as warrior or thief can do with their second set of weapons, and continue with their rotation - and then when they need it again, they could just swap them back and use, then swap them away again - repeat until its lifetime ends.
    3. At least the Shield needs some rework to be of use. Here are 2 ideas: 1st, allow to use utility spells while blocking with its skill number 2 - this way you could set a block and heal yourself at the same time, or, instead, block and immediately use Signet (of fire), like a RL soldier with and assault shield, firing their gun from behind of it :) 2nd, that block skill must become easy to cancel (atm you can cancel with Ecs key, and you can't even reassign it), like, in Action Camera mode it should be cancellable by hitting RMB; moreover, when cancelled this way, if it has been channeled just for about second or two, it must get reduced cooldown. This way Ele will be able to play with this great block ability in subtle ways, easily engaging into blocking mode, and disengaging from it, and casting defensively from behind the shield - bring pretty interesting possibilities at least for solo or casual group pve runs.
    4. Light to moderate changes to existing specs. Not sure which changes actually should be done. Others may have better ideas. Or, alternatively, a totally different aproach (next item)
    5. As we still have to choose 2 out of 5 possible elemental specs to use 3 elemental specializations will always be left behind and will be much less effective than those we choose to specialize upon. To make up for this, some new mechanic could be added which provides an interesting gaming mechanic which would allow you to use them in an effective way. Both mechanics assume a new key will be defined, in addition to 4 attunement switching keys and will be triggering new special abilities for Tempest and Weaver. They are described in details below.
  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    So, now on ot a bit more radical and risky changes :) Still won't change the core abilities, but instead will add new mechanics making up for the need of using non-specced / non-dps elements sometimes with unique abilities helping the whole team a lot (if executed well)

    Weaver

    1. A new bar is shown in the HUD. This bar fills steadily but slowly if you camp only elements you chose to spec into, but when you use a few skills of element you didn't spec (or any double-skill partly based on such element), bar fills for a much larger amount. This only works when you use such skill with an actual effect (healing some hp, inflicting damage or status etc), no use in simply discharging it without target or cause, so it can't be easily "farmed", you need to actually diversify to charge it faster
    2. There is a mark over its middle, and when if fills to this mark, you now may use the new key to release this accumulated mixed energy. You still may decide to accumulate more, for a much greater effect, but beware, as starting from this point any damage you suffer from any source will result in surges in speed this bar fills with, in addition to factors mentioned in the previous item, and if you'll miss the moment and will allow it to reach 100% it will instead explode at your position, delivering you a devastating blow and shutting down 2 of your random attunements for twice as long as attunement switch does. In PvP your enemies will see an indicator above your head, or some kind of halo, telling them you are over 50% and hitting you hard now may make you explode :)
    3. Hitting the release key before the bar will fill to 50% will just dispose part of this energy safely (15% per key hit); you can hit the key repeatedly to drop it to 0% if you wish
    4. Now, the most interesting part. On release, you shoot a destabilizing beam aiming it at one of friendlies around who has a condition on them. When it hits them, it "knocks out" this condition from them, which then turns into a destabilizing ray itself, flying out from the friendly roughly into the same direction as original beam did (with a bit of randomness added) - while original beam keeps flying as well, though also slightly deviated from original direction; if any of those hits (or comes by close enough to) another ally with a condi on them, it again "knocks it out" from them. Yes, exactly as in nuclear chain reaction, it keeps multiplying and cascading, cleansing friendlies from conditions the deeper it goes into a crowd. There could be also a cap on how many times it can multiply, which could be tied to how much charge you accumulated before releasing it
    5. ..but it doesn't end here :) After passing through friendlies, all those beams (hopefully) fly through your enemies' ranks as well, granting them (randomly) those conditions they "knocked out" from friendlies; if it hits an enemy, it is inhibited by them, and then this condition may stick to them
    6. The chance it will stick to an enemy depends on both how charged you was at release moment, and also on purity of the energy you gathered. Purity is shown on the bar itself, the more "murky" it is - the worse. This not only defines the actual chance it will stick, but also the chance it will hit them - the "purer" it is, the wider is each such beam and the more precisely it fly towards an enemy (it's slightly homing at them). "Perfectly pure" would be an (unlikely) chance you maintained a perfect balance between elements you specced for and those for which you didn't; energy you got by being hit when bar is over 50% full (as described in item 1) will greatly purify your charge, making it much more potent. So, BDSM is your friend ;) An "ideally pure" charge released exactly at 99% will provide you 99% chance that any "condition ray" hitting an enemy will put it on them
    7. If you miss a friendly with initial beam, or there is no suitable condition effect on that guy, you've just wasted it as well.

    So, in a nutshell, you are facing a seemingly simple decision of whether you'll try to gamble and will try to fill the bar more for a greater effect, or just release every time it reaches 50% for maximum safety, or may be just dump it for no effect (no positive, no negative) before it will rise over 50% by hitting release key repeatedly from time to time, or one time once in a while to keep it slightly below 50% so you could charge up and use it quickly when needed. Effect on release depends highly on timing and positioning, but if the original beam is issued from a right angle into a crowd of allies, it may cleanse them quite well, and then put those condis on your enemies as well.

    This adds a whole new layer to a skilled play, especially as part of a team.

    Tempest

    1. A very similar bar is displayed as well, and a "release key" is defined. Yet it uses a different mechanic to fill the charge. By using the release key initially, you can aim to an area on the ground and rip all negative conditions from friendlies in the area, and assign them to yourself; the ability will then go on cooldown for 10-15 seconds. You can cleanse condis you inhibited,or just walk it off, but in the end they still will leave a scar on you - there is a counter beside the bar which shows how much of condis you've accumulated this way
    2. Inhibiting condis does 2 things: it immediately charges the bar for a few percents per each, and them the higher the counter of inhibited condis is, the faster the bar will be charging; the only way to reset the counter is to make a successful release, from now on; most of considerations from Weaver's case apply, like, you must not overcharge, when you are above 50% human players will see it, and if you hit hard your bar may easily reach 100% and you'll explode; yet you can't dump energy by hitting the release button before it's reached 50% (another approach is used for this). The bar also stops charging you stop using weapon skills constantly and change attunements - so simply sitting there doing nothing waiting for a charge with extremely high counter won't do.
    3. In addition, the higher the counter is, the more is chance some of your weapon skills will randomly be marked as "shortcutted" to your "energy vault" and will be highlighted on the HUD. By hitting such skill you'll decrease charge of the bar significantly, and at the same time decrease the counter by one. The skills of elements you're specced for will more likely to become "shortcutted". Thus if you decide to rip off more condies from friendlies and faster charge your bar, you will need to pay more attention which skills you can use in your rotations while you are in specced attunements, up to the point when you may even have to camp your non-specced attunements for some time, as the specced ones will become "polluted" and too tricky to use without decreasing your charge and inhibitted condi counter
    4. When above 50%, you may release accumulated energy as a wide powerful beam stretching 1500 units. It heals allies and puts protection on them, while damages enemies and puts vulnerability on them. Its power depends on its purity again, but this time it's defined by how high your inhibited condi counter was at the moment of release and for how long you managed to keep that counter that high before you released . "Ideal purity" is when it was so high that all your specced elements' skills were become shortcutted, and you had to camp non-specced elements, and it become like that very soon after the counter initially switched from 0 to 1

    In a nutshell, you as Tempest you can deliberately rip off condis from friendlies, and put them on yourself. That will increase your "inhibitted condi counter", and the higher it is, the faster you charge the bar. But the higher it is, the more is chance some of your skills (first of all, the ones belonging to elements you specced) will be marked as "shortcutted", and using them will decrease the counter and the charge of the bar. So you need to balance between faster charging which is tricky to maintain, and slower but more reliable charging; between using usual rotations in specced elements and possibly decreasing the charge, or camping non-specced ones at high counter value to quickly charge it to the top. The final power of the released beam depends on how long you were able to maintain that high counter before release.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019

    The current state of elementalist is incredibly sad. They've had over a year since PoF released to make impactful fixes and nothing has improved at all, despite all of the changes that they have made and all of the nerfs that other professions have had. Anet need to start making changes that have actual impact.

    Five changes with a bit of thought behind them could probably help ele about as much as all the balance patches in the last year combined.

    1. Elemental Bastion is now a water grandmaster trait. Powerful Auras has taken it's place as a tempest grandmaster trait.
    2. Woven Stride no longer grants regeneration when you gain superspeed or swiftness. Instead you now cleanse a condition when gaining superspeed or swiftness.
    3. Blinding Ashes cooldown has been reduced to 5 seconds. The cooldown is now separate for each target affected by burn.
    4. Overload Air, Overload Fire and Overload Water now have 1 stack of stability baseline.
    5. Lightning Flash cooldown has been reduced by 10 seconds and its range has been increased by 300.
  • qbalrog.8017qbalrog.8017 Member ✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019

    I appreciate all the theory craft and all but in the end, for me, ele just isn't much fun to play anymore. In pvp, its a lot of work for half of what most other classes can do. In open world pve, it feels like the same: a lot of skills and atunement swaps for sub-par output. In fractals, again, a lot of effort to just barely hold my own.

    Maybe staff holds its own in raids but I find staff brain-numbing to play. I've gone on to other toons for now but since my heart lies with eles, I find myself playing gw2 a lot less these days.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    1- Powerful Aura shouldn't replace a Major Grandmaster trait, because you can simply run shouts only and Elemental Bastion would do the work without the need of water line. It should be introduced into Unstable Conduit, the Overload is an AoE, the effects should also be AoE, and for a spec that has Auras shaping its utilities, overloads, etc. Powerful Aura as a Major Grandmaster is humiliating. I agree this trait should be in Tempest line, core Ele and Weaver barely make use of auras, but its effect is not as healing allies and applying frost aura when going for shouts, it would synergies well with Elemental Bastion, but not replace it.

    2- Although this change to Woven Stride would decrease Weaver's dependency on water line, still the sustain of the e-spec comes from water line heals and frost aura. If Weaver is to fully let go of water line, they need heals in their line, I would replace Master's Fortitude with something that actually helps weaver sustain. Building more health is not sustain, it's going for tankiness and there's nothing worse than an ele with 0 passives, trying to tank, it's the only option now for weaver as a minor trait, but I believe if any sort of heal or barrier were introduced, it would have taken over Master's Fortitude anytime. 3000 more HP would be nothing if you can heal as a DPS, and they can be amplified if you want to bunker. This replacement would let go of weaver's dependency on water line and would allow them to go for earth for more condi damage/toughness, air for some utility/damage or fire for full damage. The change to Woven Stride is great, but to let go of water line, a strong barrier or heal need to exist in the line as well.

    3- Totally agree

    4- Totally agree. I also would love overloads to have a charging bar, made of 3 partitions. Tempests can now reactivate their Overload once any partition is full, dispersing damage/condi/heal/etc. in a form of a shockwave based on how many partitions have been used. The duration of the Overload would also be reduced to 18s when fully charging, 15s when using/interrupted with 2 partitions and 13/12s when only one partition is full. This would allow Tempest to always make use of what comes after the overload but with reduced effects if reactivated in between and not always get punished for the long cd. Might also allow this dispersion to happen if interrupted while any of the partitions is/are full, but that might be quite strong as Tempest would go brain-dead Overloading knowing that the attacker would be punished either way, thus the reactivation is within Tempest's hands to make use of before getting interrupted.

    5- I would agree on one of those. Mirage's jaunt, which is an e-spec tp, doesn't have that much mobility with all charges combined (yeah it has other features, but we're talking about a utility meant for mobility only), if that's not a good comparison; core mesmer's Blink would be weaker compared to Lightning Flash like that, there is a stun break on Blink but LF doesn't stop any casts, so lower cd and longer range would a bit powerful. So either lower cd or longer range.

    But still one of the major issues lie within the core trait lines, if Tempest and Weaver were able to let go of water line and finally have a room for damage and to apply pressure, then picking fire would only allow them to camp fire element since everything that does damage would be on fire. The trait lines should allow ele to change how their attunements function, not which attunement should function imo.

    Buff Elementalist!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019

    @qbalrog.8017 said:
    I appreciate all the theory craft and all but in the end, for me, ele just isn't much fun to play anymore. In pvp, its a lot of work for half of what most other classes can do. In open world pve, it feels like the same: a lot of skills and atunement swaps for sub-par output. In fractals, again, a lot of effort to just barely hold my own.

    Maybe staff holds its own in raids but I find staff brain-numbing to play. I've gone on to other toons for now but since my heart lies with eles, I find myself playing gw2 a lot less these days.

    Staff is no longer a thing for DPS in PvE, check SC, it's no longer a thing, the last patch to boons was a huge nerf to Arcane's Major Grandmaster, its damage is now the same as Reaper probably, at least a Reaper can bring something for the squad, weaver has nothing but pure damage. Even in PvE, ele is not fine, the amount of effort you take for simple stuff is a lot compared to others, you can't maintain boons, have 0 self-defense than kiting and running away. The state of ele is sad, it wasn't that bad when staff covered these issues with its 40k+, but now it's nothing and the issues of ele are widely seen.

    Buff Elementalist!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    If and when I see ele's in wvw I know they are going to do one of two things they are about to meteor shower an arrow cart or whatever siege is on the wall or throw a disabler get downed and mist inside the portal. Those are about all the uses this class has been reduced down too. Ever since hot came out my ele just sits around as a storage character and unless they do some kind of change to the class it most likely will just be class that cooks my food.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    1- Powerful Aura shouldn't replace a Major Grandmaster trait, because you can simply run shouts only and Elemental Bastion would do the work without the need of water line. It should be introduced into Unstable Conduit, the Overload is an AoE, the effects should also be AoE, and for a spec that has Auras shaping its utilities, overloads, etc. Powerful Aura as a Major Grandmaster is humiliating. I agree this trait should be in Tempest line, core Ele and Weaver barely make use of auras, but its effect is not as healing allies and applying frost aura when going for shouts, it would synergies well with Elemental Bastion, but not replace it.

    2- Although this change to Woven Stride would decrease Weaver's dependency on water line, still the sustain of the e-spec comes from water line heals and frost aura. If Weaver is to fully let go of water line, they need heals in their line, I would replace Master's Fortitude with something that actually helps weaver sustain. Building more health is not sustain, it's going for tankiness and there's nothing worse than an ele with 0 passives, trying to tank, it's the only option now for weaver as a minor trait, but I believe if any sort of heal or barrier were introduced, it would have taken over Master's Fortitude anytime. 3000 more HP would be nothing if you can heal as a DPS, and they can be amplified if you want to bunker. This replacement would let go of weaver's dependency on water line and would allow them to go for earth for more condi damage/toughness, air for some utility/damage or fire for full damage. The change to Woven Stride is great, but to let go of water line, a strong barrier or heal need to exist in the line as well.

    3- Totally agree

    4- Totally agree. I also would love overloads to have a charging bar, made of 3 partitions. Tempests can now reactivate their Overload once any partition is full, dispersing damage/condi/heal/etc. in a form of a shockwave based on how many partitions have been used. The duration of the Overload would also be reduced to 18s when fully charging, 15s when using/interrupted with 2 partitions and 13/12s when only one partition is full. This would allow Tempest to always make use of what comes after the overload but with reduced effects if reactivated in between and not always get punished for the long cd. Might also allow this dispersion to happen if interrupted while any of the partitions is/are full, but that might be quite strong as Tempest would go brain-dead Overloading knowing that the attacker would be punished either way, thus the reactivation is within Tempest's hands to make use of before getting interrupted.

    5- I would agree on one of those. Mirage's jaunt, which is an e-spec tp, doesn't have that much mobility with all charges combined (yeah it has other features, but we're talking about a utility meant for mobility only), if that's not a good comparison; core mesmer's Blink would be weaker compared to Lightning Flash like that, there is a stun break on Blink but LF doesn't stop any casts, so lower cd and longer range would a bit powerful. So either lower cd or longer range.

    But still one of the major issues lie within the core trait lines, if Tempest and Weaver were able to let go of water line and finally have a room for damage and to apply pressure, then picking fire would only allow them to camp fire element since everything that does damage would be on fire. The trait lines should allow ele to change how their attunements function, not which attunement should function imo.

    1. Powerful Aura also affects the aura weapon skills and it has a niche use for auras from finishers (Blast finisher has 360 radius, while powerful aura has 600.). I actually believe that having aura share in tempest is way better than in water, even if it costs elemental bastion. First of all, you would still be able to use the exact same auramancer build with both of these traits, since you need to take water anyway. Taking elemental bastion without water is really not an amazing choice as it is right now anyway. More importantly, having powerful auras as a tempest GM means that there are many more synergies with tempest than before. You get more options than before if you choose the water line because you can opt to take soothing power or cleansing water instead of elemental bastion if the situation demands it. In addition, you can also make an auramancer spec that doesn't take water at all. You could have an offensive auramancer that uses aura traits from the offensive lines, such as using smothering auras from fire to help with cleansing condis from allies.

    2. Yes, there is more that needs to be done for weaver to get out of water, but I believe that changing woven stride is the single most important thing you could do. Though they would still need to keep adjusting ele's defensive mechanics in general even if they changed woven stride.

    3. Nothing to say here.

    4. That seems a bit convoluted. Anet's balance team is not very good at implementing complex mechanics. I'd be more confident in their balancing if they just slapped 1 stack of stability on it.

    5. Blink doesn't stop any casts either. If this change happened, the only difference between blink and lightning flash would be that one has a stunbreak and the other has damage, which imo makes them have more or less the same power. Damage is better if you use it to engage, but it's useless if you use it to disengage. Stunbreaking is nice if you want to use it to cancel a hard CC while repositioning. In addition to the obvious benefits that jaunt has, you also have to keep in mind that having three 300 range teleports is inherently much better than having one 900 range teleport. It's not only the range that matters, it's also confusing your enemies and repositioning. The best argument that I have heard against changing lightning flash is that similar skills of different professions should not be compared in a vaccum, because it's the total package that matters in the end. However, this argument does not apply here imo. If someone wanted to apply it I'd say that if that's the case lightning flash should be better than blink, because if you compare elementalist to mesmer it is obvious which profession is way more powerful than the other.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    (...)
    2. Woven Stride no longer grants regeneration when you gain superspeed or swiftness. Instead you now cleanse a condition when gaining superspeed or swiftness.
    (...)

    This would nerf water weaver significantly, because of much less cleanse potential. However, it would enable air to be a great competitor, because you can cleanse 2 conditions per swap (imagine with fresh air...) and have several weapon skills giving swiftness/superspeed.

    I fear It would push S/D weaver in PVP actively into air/arcane/weaver, making it the only semi-viable spec for S/D. It should give both, or, well, you should be able to choose from these cleanses on swiftness/reg on swiftness to enable S/D weaver to take on a bunker role with water or a bruiser role with air.

    Add some ranges on sword skills for AoE pressure and I like the rest of your changes. :wink:

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    1- I still believe Powerful Aura should be introduced into Unstable Conduit, you can go DPS and heal for every overload for 500 because of how the Major trait (Elemental Bastion) would synergies with this minor one, which isn't bad, it's like Signet of Ether when going for DPS. You'll get auras for overloading and you can share these auras, so Powerful Aura is going into Tempest line but as a minor trait, because the Auras aren't strong, Tempest makes auras look like they are something, if you remove every aplifier from Tempest to Auras, auras would get back to being useless, just as almost all of them are.

    2- I agree to your point, it's just that it should be continued on, which is what I am afraid of that's why I wanted it to come as one, because of Woven Stride only got reworked, we're still hanging onto water for heals. Better introduce barriers into minor trait as well.

    3- ...

    4- It was an idea. The stability is good anyway given how long the cast is.

    5- 3 charges is totally more powerful, but it's still an elite skill, shouldn't be compared to utilities if its mobility-wise. Well, if Blink doesn't interrupt cast as well, then I am totally with you (30s cd with stun break vs 40s with damage, 1200 range vs 900). For comparing the class's whole package vs another. From a dev's POV, they should have all classes' core mechanics without utilities at almost the same level (phantasms/clones vs 4 attunements for example), since this isn't the case, utilities are part of the core class's balance level. My point was to prevent any sort of flack, because just as mesmers might have clones and phantasms running around, some believe ele has 4 attunements to balance that out, which is not the case because of our lovely trait lines. It was just a matter of balance given that all classes are the same if utilities didn't exist, but given how ele already lacks utility/defense, it's fine to have this not-game-breaking change.

    Buff Elementalist!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019

    It wil be hard to balance Ele, between the DMG/uselessness issue in Pve and Sustain( water/arcane jail) in PvP/roaming.
    But the way they did it is wretched : nerf sustain like riptide, arcane traits, but buff +30% or +50% random sword or scepter skills without taking care of CD, range and cast time ... They should start to do the opposite.
    And they should implant new (and unique to elem) group buffs or/and improve mechanics like barriers and auras, because weaver/elem is way too selfish (and still need to be carried) and tempest is a very cheap FB : make Harmonious conduit a group buff, make barriers shared to the group, make the +33% aura duration from the runes a tempest's trait, buff auras, etc.

    If they still want Elem to be a hybrid concept, at least let us be useful to our allies.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    It wil be hard to balance Ele, between the DMG/uselessness issue in Pve and Sustain( water/arcane jail) in PvP/roaming.
    But the way they did it is wretched : nerf sustain like riptide, arcane traits, but buff +30% or +50% random sword or scepter skills without taking care of CD, range and cast time ... They should start to do the opposite.
    And they should implant new (and unique to elem) group buffs or/and improve mechanics like barriers and auras, because weaver/elem is way too selfish (and still need to be carried) and tempest is a very cheap FB : make Harmonious conduit a group buff, make barriers shared to the group, make the +33% aura duration from the runes a tempest's trait, buff auras, etc.

    If they still want Elem to be a hybrid concept, at least let us be useful to our allies.

    A lot of ppl like the ideal of hybrid ele its just healing power has become too important for ele healing effects for there group to the point where if you not high investment into healing power the healing not worth it. The same could be said for dmg. There just been too many nerfs to the class to by called hybrid any more. What anet may need to do is give up on the ideal of having water doing raw healing unless the player builds for it and move water more into boon support or cc support.

  • Guizao.4167Guizao.4167 Member ✭✭✭

    My dearest fellow elementalists players - this thread reminds me of how I used to behave on this forums: making long threads suggesting balances or criticizing ArenaNet's balance patches, and what had that gotten me? Forum suspensions or not a single answer at all. So I had to make a choice - keep doing these posts or leave it as it is, as it's not my game but theirs. I stopped spending my $$ and only play sPvP non meta builds in ranked, because if they don't care about their own profession, why should I?
    No matter how much you criticize them, they will only listen if it's going to add something to their Hall of Personal Trophies (because somehow every critique means a way to teach them how to do their job...)

    Regarding this post purpose: you have been deceived again. Where are the balance devs behind eles? Did they ever comment on here? Do they ever interact with us? When was the last time elementalists received a rework like mesmers received that one, last year?

  • Guizao.4167Guizao.4167 Member ✭✭✭

    Just a side note: tagging Anet employees won't help! I always did it and never worked.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Guizao.4167 said:
    Just a side note: tagging Anet employees won't help! I always did it and never worked.

    Got to keep trying the only real magic ele has can on these forms. There no real ele magic in gw2.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    Ok, now when I have the Weaver spec unlocked, I immediately can see how dual-attacks and attunement combinations are total disaster in its current implementation.

    I'm playing dagger/dagger ele, and it relies heavily on the 2 mobility skills of this weapon combo - one of each happen to be on the button 3 in Earth, and the other on button 4 in Air. When I play as a core ele and need to disengage or quickly close a gap between me and some dangerous mob with a range attack (as d/d has issues with range of its attacks), I switch to Earth or AIr and use one of those. When I'm Weaver, I can't do it anymore as when I go to Earth, dual-attack is on 3 now, and if I go to Air, I only have first 3 Air skills, and the skill I need is at position 4.

    Even worse, all attunement switches now got increased cooldowns! So I can't even tap the, say, Earth attune button twice rapidly, I need to wait, and this wait for a few seconds for a lightly armored low-hp close-range fighter easily becomes a difference between life and death.

    Additionally, both of d/d crowd control abilities (Earth-4 and Air-5) mandatory for survival are in off-hand, so you can't quickly select them quickly as Weaver. That even will be an issue for sword Weaver, as dagger is popular option for off-hand even in this case.

    Anet, do something! This totally breaks the d/d build, I even prefer to play the core ele over Weaver because of this! And unlike other issues here, this is really easy to fix. At least, switch to any pure attunement which is the main hand of the current your combined attunements must not be affected by cooldown at all. This will allow you to double-tap a specific attunement button to get access to pure (not-combined) set of skills for it very quickly.

    Additionally, it would probably be more useful if double-attack skills would flip over to normal skills of current main-hand attunement right after they are used. Will provide more options how to get to the needed skill to player.

  • i have a good idea for ele.
    give em perma fury
    perma 25 might ( without doing anything)
    perma swiftness
    and for each attunement switch you gain 3 stucks of stability.

    = i think this would bring ele back to a mediocre class!
    maybe sarcasm maybe not

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:
    i have a good idea for ele.
    give em perma fury
    perma 25 might ( without doing anything)
    perma swiftness
    and for each attunement switch you gain 3 stucks of stability.

    = i think this would bring ele back to a mediocre class!
    maybe sarcasm maybe not

    That's the reason why cele ele was once strong and why a lot of elite specs are now strong - easy access to offensive boons. However, ele still had to use both defensive traits and gear and get its boons from comboing, where most builds nowadays just run full zerk or marauder, get boons from weapon skills or passive trait procs and have no issues with staying alive.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    Just don't die 4Head
    Just do damage 4Head
    Just have boons 4Head
    I am tanky by nature Pepega
    That actually got me FeelsBadMan
    Alright we lost this PepeHands

    Buff Elementalist!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:
    i have a good idea for ele.
    give em perma fury
    perma 25 might ( without doing anything)
    perma swiftness
    and for each attunement switch you gain 3 stucks of stability.

    = i think this would bring ele back to a mediocre class!
    maybe sarcasm maybe not

    That's the reason why cele ele was once strong and why a lot of elite specs are now strong - easy access to offensive boons. However, ele still had to use both defensive traits and gear and get its boons from comboing, where most builds nowadays just run full zerk or marauder, get boons from weapon skills or passive trait procs and have no issues with staying alive.

    But nearly ever class can do that though runes and sigil and still have more hp / def and have the ability to access the real offensive boons of quickness/alcotorly as well as def of stab / resistances. Ele use to have the best protection up time and it was never perma only close to now its one of the lower end as there are classes with perma protection passively. Its like the vigor thing where anet tryed to nerf vigor up time for passive effects to make it better as an support effect. It did not work and made support vigor a joke.

    If your not giving your self at least a few of the strong boons your not realy a solo class if your not giving others a few of the strong boons your not realy a group class.

  • SCVwar.3784SCVwar.3784 Member ✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @Razor.6392 said:
    I'm not gonna list very specific changes because I know how tedious is reading through numerical stuff. Instead I'll give you a broader scope of ele's issue (mained ele since august 2012).

    Pvp builds:
    * Every successful ele build relies on sustain. We have zero condi builds, and power builds are outclassed.
    * Our entire existence is tied to Water and Arcane. When was the last time you saw a build without either arcane or water?
    * Fire trait line is heavily underpowered. You could give us back the old might on cantrip and it still wouldn't be top tier due to power creep.

    Pve builds:
    * Very squishy with complex rotations. Why roll ele when you can just rollface with simpler classes?

    Weapons:
    * Sword does everything dagger does, but considerably better. Both weapons fill the same niche. This is a serious problem.
    * Dagger needs significant buffs in both survivability and damage. Both main and offhand (but more main hand). Weaver locking its best 2 abilities (Shocking Aura and Burning Speed) behind a double attunement is also a severe issue.
    * Staff is mostly okay, but lacking in pvp (since release). I assume this is intended by now.
    * Focus is fine. Fire attunement is very, VERY boring but meh, at least the other 3 are good.
    * Scepter is non existent in pve. It has great burst but still keeps the same issues for years. Namely Dragon's Tooth, Phoenix LONG cd, and its poor autoattacks (abysmal dps).
    * Warhorn is okay I guess. Not a lot to say about it.

    Healing skills:
    * Arcane Brilliance could use the pvp recharge globally.
    * Aquatic Stance is never a good choice.
    * Ether Renewal could use a shorter channel.
    * All the other heals are okay.

    Utility skills:
    * Glyphs remain bad in every game mode. Only glyph of storms sees some value in pve. GoEP 25% dmg buff was nice, but still not good enough to justify its slot.
    * Cantrips are stuck in 2014. The cooldowns are REALLY bad, and the effects are underwhelming.
    * Arcane got a really nice pvp buff in adding charges, but then they received nerfs because FA weaver was oh so OP with its zero condi removal / sustain. Revert.
    * Shouts are only useful because of the auras. Their cooldowns and effects are rather awful.
    * Stances are mostly fine, if not a little clunky. Unravel needs something more to justify its slot.
    * Conjures need a full rework. Give them the engi-kit treatment... or something at least.

    Elite skills:
    * I'm fairly sure ele has the worst elite skills in the entire game. All of them need help. Tornado needs a lower CD and to be as strong as Rampage / Lich form, Glyph needs targeted aoe abilities, FGS needs a much lower cooldown, Weave Self needs to not root yourself when casting Tailored Victory and the tempest elite a full rework, because it's too similar to an engi healing ability and doesn't fit the Elementalist theme.

    Talents
    * As previously mentioned, Fire traitline is underpowered. It only sees use in pve due to its boring flat damage increase traits.
    * Air is mostly fine, but some traits need an update. Such as Zephyr's Boon and Electric Discharge (unfairly nerfed for Core ele).
    * Earth is not a bad trait line, but the overreliance on water and arcane ultimately renders it pointless to most builds.
    * Water. Oh water, if only we could add some of your sustain and survivability to other trait lines in one way or another... I'm not one for homogenizing things, but this is needed. At least the condi clear part.
    * Arcane, the ultimate trait line for an ele, much like trickery for Thief. I don't think the answer is to nerf it, but to make other trait lines (fire, earth) more competitive. A LOT more. Also give us arcane fury back... nobody needs 1 stack of might for 8 seconds on att. swap. Seriously. It's one of those changes nobody asked, like Thief's Blinding Powder becoming a stun break. STOP DOING THAT.
    * Tempest. Very dull traits with almost no impact. Needs a full rework.
    * Weaver. Like already mentioned in water, add some standalone condi clear in here please, don't make us rely on water all the time.

    Thank you for reading.

    This is pretty much the tl;dr version of all complaints in this thread that summarize with arguably reasonable changes demanded. It should be clipped for balance team to think over and use as a starting point for 'updating and balancing Elementalist profession in 2019'. However, I must say, above all other complaints, Ele's staff skills (mostly 1~2 and Meteor Shower) staff for WvW is currently too slow and obsolete.

    I would just chip in my input, mostly about Ele problems in WvW squad gameplay and DPS department in PvP contents:
    Ele's DPS department in competitive scenes (WvW, Ranked sPvP, GvG) is pretty much dead or non-existent. It's all about sustain, for group-plays and self-sustain. Heal/support Tempest is just a build that somehow luckily survived 'the culling' of non-meta classes in competitive WvW squad gameplay.
    TL;DR version:
    ======================================
    1/ Cantrips seriously needs shorter cooldowns or need reworks.
    Outdated, even with shorten cooldowns, it's just not enough when ranged power builds can just use skill 1 to shoot you down upto 1500 range with longbow or shiro shadowstep+hammer bolt. The reason Twist of Fate is favored over cantrips in nearly every weaver build right now is due to it's invulnerable time and it's a 2 stack recharge skills.

    2/ Ele has 0 utility counter against stealth builds except lucky AoE shots and long cooldown blocks.
    Eles have the lowest innate defensive stats, the given tools force Eles to react after their stealth bomb has been used. TRAITS is the only and effective counter measure against burst builds.

    3/ Staff weaver Fire+Water/Fire+Air Dual Attacks projectiles speed is too slow for competitive gameplay and yet too many counters like projectile blocks or aegis, it's a waste of time to cast them.

    4/ Remove stationary requirements from skills: Meteor Shower, Pile Driver. Let Eles use skills while moving too.

    5/ Quicken the Ice Spike animation to drop the chunk of ice almost instantly -Staff Water 2

    6/ Eruption needs either faster blast or additional soft cc till the actual blast, just like the updated Churning Earth -Staff Earth 2

    7/ Fire Overloads needs a rework, it's obsolete and counters the current role as a support role in WvW. It serves no meaningful purpose but a long duration 180 radius fire field, when Might is so abundant and pumped from other classes.

    8/ Weave Self and Tailored Victory, still useful but sub-par, not so useful outside sPvP scenes.
    ======================================

    Support Tempest is arguably the only viable build in competitive WvW / GvG scenes that some WvW guilds might consider to take it as a core/substitute profession to add in their roster, IF they have a spare spot. Long channeling of overloads can be troubling to finish channeling in an intense fight, but that's also Tempests weakness for enemy to counter, so I don't agree with some people saying overload channeling is too long; but I agree they lack impact. Especially, fire overloads, 4 seconds of spin dancing and lava font damage per tick for 180 radius? It's just not useful for 2019, may be moving fire field was the thing in pre-HoT meta where crowds regarded blasting fire field was a great might generator. It's obsolete now. Blasting and leaping fire fields is a neat trick, still handy for generating Might stacks for Eles, but Fire Overloads, Tempest has not enough combo finishers to fully utilize it anyways still a lackluster and tedious compared to how other classes generate Might. They are gonna hack or shot eles down, they know fire overload is not a threat to actually care about.

    Staff Ele's diverse field effects and AoE masking the area within 1200 range with multiple fields sounds great, it is still helpful, but near 0 damage and duration is rather short. There is no reliable continuous damage skills except from 180 radius Lava Font and Meteor Shower, DPS eles (weavers) are often neglected from proper squad spots with supports, and commonly regarded as dead-weight. The upfront damage race is so fierce in WvW right now, hammer rev and scourges shutdown any targets including Eles (especially Eles with full dps spec) within 1200 range, nullifies any fields Eles can cast in same given time bracket. Constant WASD movement is forced and I personally like it, it's fun, but it's the biggest counter to Staff Ele's offensive skills and sustainability. Zergs nowadays simply ignore all fields that Eles drop and even commander calls on discord to just move through and ignore. Only thing that enemy cares about is 'bombing' and Meteor Shower is the only ele skill in that category. All Staff Ele does right now in WvW, is to irritate the target with rock huddles and some chilling grounds to make them move and cast slower for 1 or 2 seconds and hopefully Hammer Revs and Scourges will drop them dead with actual upfront damage.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    @SCVwar.3784

    Sword does everything dagger does, but considerably better. Both weapons fill the same niche. This is a serious problem.

    They should have given dagger/dagger setup some special properties, making it better at somethign than sword. Like, to get reliable access to off-hand dagger's skills you currently need to slot Unravel - so specifically for d/d setup they could allow to quickly switch to pure main-hand element without need for Unravel, and without any additional wait (so, for example, you switch to main-hand fire like a normal sword Weaver, but then you can immediately switch to the same element one more time without any additional delay, getting access to your normal offhand skills of this element - so it's become as easy as double-tap your Fire attunement button; optionally, it could also give you all bonuses Unravel currently offers, like, there would be a passive version of Unravel (lesser Unravel?) with a [shorter?] cooldown present if d/d is used, with the exception that you don't need to slot it, it just gets auto-engaged when you try to attune to the same element shortly after the previous attunement; you still can do the rapid switch to the pure element even if it's on cooldown, but you wouldn't get bonuses Unravel offers this way). And a general boost to main-hand dagger and other weapons would also be welcome (including their dual-attacks), as they clearly got much less love than the sword.

  • To be honest, Unravel should have been F5 button not taking another util slot from weaver. Keeping it's core function of single element attunement should have done fine, and possibly adding depth to it's function with traits.. But this looks like a missed opportunity and I doubt Devs actually care what Eles should do in competitive scenes.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Was working on ele one of those "side projects" as well?

    Balance patch on tuesday should be interesting.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, if nothing is done to improve staff weaver gameplay, then I'm logging on scourge for good. Perhaps it's time for me to learn firebrand as well.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    @Dahir.4158 said:
    Well, if nothing is done to improve staff weaver gameplay, then I'm logging on scourge for good. Perhaps it's time for me to learn firebrand as well.

    Your ele was bad anyway...couldnt even reach 80% of squad damage in eb pug squad... /s

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    To show how lovely the state of ele is. Last night during reset, all weavers were asked to get into ranged sub-s before we get kicked if any other better spec was there to take our place. This shows how ele gives so much in terms of support and damage that it doesn't even need a squad. The solo capabilities of ele are perhaps way too high that it can solo cap SM.

    We'll probably get 1 or 2 lines of changes just like last patch, or nerfs, maybe Lava Font is still powerful so the damage would be 10% of the current damage while fixing MS bug that caused its damage to be higher than Air Sigil's proc. Ele trait lines are "perfect by nature" anyway and further fixes would get it into "broken" state.

    Others will have positively effective changes that will keep them invested into finding newer playstyles.

    Buff Elementalist!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Dahir.4158 said:
    Well, if nothing is done to improve staff weaver gameplay, then I'm logging on scourge for good. Perhaps it's time for me to learn firebrand as well.

    Your ele was bad anyway...couldnt even reach 80% of squad damage in eb pug squad... /s

    Hehehehehe

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    Was working on ele one of those "side projects" as well?

    Balance patch on tuesday should be interesting.

    I am more concerned than ever, now.

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