Concerns about Elementalist - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Concerns about Elementalist

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  • Hello guys and gals, keep posting your concerns. I know Anet is reading them :)

    Remember to keep your posts logical and to the point. No bashing or negative criticism.

    Call it a hunch, but I feel if players post their 'concerns' with actual proof (i.e. Link, Screenshots, videos etc...) not matter how obvious it is or not; it WILL HELP OUT ALOT to further illustrate your points ;)

  • Usagi.4835Usagi.4835 Member ✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    I can get behind redesigning certain skills (e.g. Flamewall and Fire Shield, both of which are underwhelming, as well as _many _of the dual skills on weaver) but is there really a need to revamp the class entirely? That said, I don't see them having the time to do that so how about just reverting some of the more recent unnecessary and ham-fisted changes, such as Arcane Fury's transformation into Arcane Prowess (as if we didn't already have access to might already)?

    I get the impression from browsing the GW2 subreddit that a lot of noise from raiders and obsessive types who care far too much about golem benchmarks is negatively directing balance. There was a decent level of choice re: builds when PoF launched that no longer exists. Nobody really used staff in PvP but the changes were pushed through across all game modes. Staff used to be a lot of fun in WvW and there was a satisfying payoff for playing full zerk (even while taking a lot of retal damage). In the last few patches, the nerfs haven't been compensated for outside of minor number tweaks. If I remember correctly, they buffed the direct damage portion of Impale (earth dagger auto) by something like 28% which looks nice if you're skimming through the patch notes but isn't a substantive change.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    Yours is a big post, i'm quoting the stuff i want to coment on, and removed the rest for brevity.

    Well Is it supposed to be intended that every other class can do something better than Elementalist at this point leaving ele almost obsolete?

    Every class does something other classes don't. That's the whole point.

    This is not a hybrid game and it does not reward hybrid playstyle, so why make a hybrid class? You win with DPS and sustain at the end of the day in that order.

    That comes from the core/vanilla experience... The goal was to have all classes perform most roles in a group. Of all of those ele, was probably the best suited for most roles, since water had the healing, fire had the dps, earth provided the tankyness, and air provided limited support with cc and some speed boons.
    Like i mentioned earlier, elite specs and raids changed that profoundly. Elite specs allow for a more focused gameplay, and raids actually require it. In the case of Elementalist, tempest was supposed to be a support spec, but because players wanted to keep ele as the dps, they kinda ceded and changed stuff (the elite skill for example) to allow tempest to be more selfish, and be a dpser. Then they released weaver, and they made it a duelist, but without much tools in terms of dueling itself, just more dps. This kinda marred the identity for elementalists, and now that the damage was reduced a bit, there's nothing else to fall back on.

    The introduction of reduced damage per hit was the dumbest kitten they could have done since pre celestial ele

    That actually makes sense, although i think risking a obliteration of the identity of those skills, i think at this point they should fall back to meteor shower and similar skills just doing damage pulses inside the circle, hits x targets and done. No more fuss.

    Lava fonts only use now is to stack might.

    That's one of those "curve ball" changes they throw in because being transparent is too hard. It really is nonesense..

    Meteor storm should have never been touched with the damage reduction per hit- over all damage redution; sure but per hit? No.

    Well, that would mean lowering the duration, to have less hits, which also reduces the chance that stuff gets hit since it's RNG.
    I think the main problem is that they were too agressive with the 10% reduction. Which isn't really a 10% reduction of the previous damage, but an additive reduction of the original damage.
    Which ends up with a lower damage value than if they just took 10% from the previous hit.
    These are the first 9 hits with the current formula (as far as i can tell from the wiki, and i'm using the base damage value from the wiki):
    646
    581,4 (90% of original)
    516,8 (80% of original)
    452,2 (70% of original)
    387,6 (60% of original)
    323 (50% of original)
    258,4 (40% of original)
    193,8 (30% of original)
    129,2 (20% of original)
    After the 9th hit it stops reducing. This allows for a total of 5426,4 damage, if you assume all 24 hits go into the same target.

    Doing a true 10% decay from last value, these are the first 9 hits:
    646
    581,4 (90% of original)
    523,26 (90% of previous hit)
    470,93 (90% of previous hit)
    423,84 (90% of previous hit)
    381,46 (90% of previous hit)
    343,31 (90% of previous hit)
    308,98 (90% of previous hit)
    278,08 (90% of previous hit)

    This progression allows for much higher damage as you can see. If you use the same progression without a limit (currently you stop at 20% damage) it's total damage is 5944,71 (that's 500+ higher than the current system, and the last hit would be doing 57 damage;
    If you limit the minimum damage to ~130, like the current minimum, you get 6326,95 damage.
    If you only allow the damage to drop in the first 9 hits like currently, you'll get 8127,26.

    This is just changing how the formula works, it's still a 10% reduction, i just changed where that is applied. Now imagine if they used a different rate. There's potential for improvement.

    Elementalist has no place in raids now- I was nicely asked to switch to something else in my raid group. My WvW guild asked us ele mains to play something else. and in PvE I prefer to play my mesmer who hits harder and has more sustain then Elementalist unless you're constantly using barriers as a weaver or playing some version of a tempest that has no place in anything other than solo PvE. Yes it is very fun, but the damage in pure DPS and condi just isn't there. It definitely does NOT feel like a hybrid class.

    I don't think those are justified. Ele is no where near as bad as to justify removing them from the play.

    damage and AoE's need a complete fix- take away the damage reduction per hit. Every other class that has a chain skill with multiple hits needs this implemented as well if it's not taken away to be fair to elementalist nerfs.

    Most other aoes don't work like meteor shower and it's kin. So it really doesn't make sense to change them to be like that.

    Maybe make it so that Tempest have ammo charges to their shouts and the final use gives a medium sized AoE overload that can't be interrupted. Moving AoE's are a stupid mechanic and should be removed from warhorn.

    Not really, those are quite nice if used well.

    New idea for tornado elite- it changes elements based on what attunement you are on. You no longer become a tornado and instead cast it in a chosen spot for AoE effects. Or a swirling AoE ring around you that follows you similar to the revenant skill that has the swiling hammers that lasts 5-8 seconds with a CD of 90 seconds. Maybe make these the new overloads? Give them relevant boons and conditions.
    Fire attunement: 5 stacks of might, fury for allies and inflicts burning and torment to foes
    Water attunement: is regen, healing AoE, removes all condi for allies 5s and inflicts chill and slow on foes 4s
    Air attunement: is quickness, alacrity, for allies and blind and bleed on foes. 4s
    Earth attunement: 3 stacks of Stability 10 seconds , protection and resistance for allies 3s and cripple and weakness on foes. 6s

    A bit overloaded on the effects but i do think that might be a better skill. Mind you, ele isn't the only class with useless elite skills.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    just give ele 5000 more base hp, remove stealth from the game entirely and give ele the same barrier as necro (either more barrier for ele or a lot less for necro, either works). The rest would sort itself out.

    That's a bit extreme just saying

    why? necros have more hp AND barrier and less restrictions, so giving the same hp and barrier would actually fair.

    Also give ele the same damage as necro then? Btw ele also has barrier, and considerably more damage.

    And as long as a thief or mesmer can jump you out of stealth and just burst you down with no defense at all, why are we even talking about balancing?

    That's the truth. Balance overall is kitten. In PvE i don't think it was ever this bad before. And for pvp, i really don't know, but i doubt that it's worse than season 1 and 2 days, although not by far i reckon.

  • SnowHawk.3615SnowHawk.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    Yes, a class does something better than the other, but ele does nothing better than any class, make sense?- maybe I should have worded that better
    I'm just throwing out ideas and my opinion not saying that this is what needs to happen

    and yea my post is big and long bc im frustrated as butt sauce at where ele is right now. the changes aren't really justified without fixes to other skills.

  • fuzzyp.6295fuzzyp.6295 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    just give ele 5000 more base hp, remove stealth from the game entirely and give ele the same barrier as necro (either more barrier for ele or a lot less for necro, either works). The rest would sort itself out.

    That's a bit extreme just saying

    why? necros have more hp AND barrier and less restrictions, so giving the same hp and barrier would actually fair.

    And as long as a thief or mesmer can jump you out of stealth and just burst you down with no defense at all, why are we even talking about balancing?

    I think balancing stealth is an issue in its own and probably not one for this thread here. Increasing the Ele's base HP would be cool, I'd support a swap of its HP with Mesmer's HP in PvP/WvW, however this is unlikely to happen and probably the worst way to go about solving any issues at hand. Increasing Barrier gained by the elementalist while extending barrier giving traits to other core lines would be a good step in the right direction to addressing the lack of damage mitigation class mechanics for Ele, but having it reach Scourge levels is probably not really a good idea.

    On the topic of stealth though, it's been 6 years ArenaNet: Elementalist needs a skill that inflicts revealed. It still boggles my mind that we don't have one. Considering burst damage is already such a counter to elementalist by its very design, we should have at least some way to deal with it to some degree due to the power creep of stealth heavy classes.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    Wish I had Sigil of Geomancy back for ele in PvP.
    Back then, I didn't have to play the braindead auramancer build that other eles were forced upon.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭

    Make unravel F5. Replace it with gap closer.

    Give stone resonance condi cleanse.

    Make weave self passively give the bonuses per attune that the polyphony trait currently does and make it's activation feature attunement based with a bonus for use on dual attune.

  • Usagi.4835Usagi.4835 Member ✭✭
    edited August 24, 2018

    @fuzzyp.6295 said:
    On the topic of stealth though, it's been 6 years ArenaNet: Elementalist needs a skill that inflicts revealed. It still boggles my mind that we don't have one. Considering burst damage is already such a counter to elementalist by its very design, we should have at least some way to deal with it to some degree due to the power creep of stealth heavy classes.

    A bit specific but with regards to deadeye, it's a moot point given they can just reapply stealth using Shadow Meld. Rather than giving us reveal, I'd greatly prefer it if they considered piecemeal revisions on heavy-handed nerfs to bring back some of the previously competitive, fun builds. In WvW/PvP, a well-played Fresh Air weaver had enough pressure to at least force a stalemate or scare thieves/mesmers away. If it's the case that they want to tone down damage across the board, I wish they'd take a look at holosmith which has a little too much in the way of sustain and damage, and is a far better bruiser than sword ele will ever be. They nerfed mirage and weaver damage but left holosmith and soulbeast damage alone which leads me to think they're either inconsistent or they don't want weaver to be a roaming spec. If the first, well, that's no surprise. If the second, what happened to playing how you want? I could talk more about holo because I think when they're stacked, it becomes oppressive like how scourge was but I'll hold off on the tangent.

    EDIT: This is from a WvW/PvP standpoint. Prior to the March balance patch, I suspected they'd preemptively tone down the damage of Fresh Air weaver following all the complaints about power mirage. I understand shaving down the damage on Plasma Beam but think they went too far by touching Electric Discharge (which affected base Fresh Air too). The cumulative effect of successive nerfs in the last few months is more noticeable now. Take, for instance, the Elements of Rage nerf in the July patch. I made a mistake earlier in stating that you'll always lose ferocity by speccing vitality. I can see it was an attempt to rein in overall damage and a considerable net loss in stats. EoR is clearly damage-oriented and so is the obvious pick for DPS specs (which are unlikely to invest in vitality) but is more of an afterthought for other builds which have invested in vitality but would also see more mileage out of Woven Stride. As we all know, to get any value out of ferocity, you need power and precision too. I'm not sure how much of a difference it would've made to have just lowered the Power to Ferocity conversion from 14%, rather than swapping the stat to Vitality but the takeaway is:

    1. Marauder's is a straight loss in ferocity than if you'd specced full Berserker's.
    2. Full Berserker's + Valkyrie trinkets sees a miniscule increase in critical damage; less than 1% with full ascended gear.

    Glass staff used to workable for roaming but the damage is so piddly now, it doesn't feel rewarding. There's no trade-off. The same applies to damage-oriented specs like Fresh Air; you're not built for sustain but you don't have enough pressure either and so the result is thoroughly underwhelming and unsatisfying gameplay. I'm not asking for excessive powercreep or buffs hence my lack of enthusiasm for some of the changes suggested in this thread, but I really feel like ele was in a decent place before March. Dagger sucked then (and still does now) but at least we had more choice.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Talking about PVE now:
    What would everyone say if they removed Conjures from the game, or at the very least they rework them to fit a very specific playstyle.
    I think the best Conjure at the moment is the Lightning Hammer. It's the only conjure with a set style and the only Conjure with useful auto attacks, it's the only Conjure that you cast it and use it's full potential instead of cast it to get access to one or two skills then discard it. It buffs critical chance and critical damage, all the skills are about dealing high power damage, a leap and some crowd control.

    Earth Shield is another well designed Conjure weapon with abilities that fit with each other. The main issue with it is that it's not very useful in PVE, it's a defensive/tanking weapon.

    Conjure Flame Axe is a mostly useless weapon because most of its abilities are surpassed by the Elite Conjure Fiery Greatsword, making this skill an excellent candidate for a rework or even removal. It's supposed to be a hybrid power/condition weapon but the elite is better at both so the Axe lacks a unique purpose and identity, which is why it's not used anywhere.

    Conjure Fiery Greatsword is a terrible skill for an Elite slot. It's only used for the later skills while the auto attacks are worthless. It's one of those "I pop this, press 4/5 then discard it" kind of weapon which is sad, given the enormous cooldown. Compare https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm with... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) they are both called Firestorm and look redundant, one of these could go, and most likely the Greatsword skill.

    Conjure Frost Bow is the worst of the conjures. It only has 1 useful overall skill (4) and a situational (due to the long cast) CC skill (5). It buffs healing power although the healing output it provides is abysmal. It buffs Condition duration, yet it has a great Power damage skill. This conjure is all over the place and needs kind of a rework. Also, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frost_Storm and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ice_Storm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) are similar, the first applies bleeding, the second chill. Honestly these two skills should be swapped or something.

    I know making these kinds of changes to Firestorm and Frost Storm would nerf Elementalist DPS further. But, both of those skills make the rotation more complex, require the clunky usage of conjures and provide a good amount of damage. Damage that appears on benchmarks and if it's removed somehow, perhaps the rest of the Elementalist can get a boost instead.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Talking about PVE now:
    What would everyone say if they removed Conjures from the game, or at the very least they rework them to fit a very specific playstyle.
    I think the best Conjure at the moment is the Lightning Hammer. It's the only conjure with a set style and the only Conjure with useful auto attacks, it's the only Conjure that you cast it and use it's full potential instead of cast it to get access to one or two skills then discard it. It buffs critical chance and critical damage, all the skills are about dealing high power damage, a leap and some crowd control.

    Earth Shield is another well designed Conjure weapon with abilities that fit with each other. The main issue with it is that it's not very useful in PVE, it's a defensive/tanking weapon.

    Conjure Flame Axe is a mostly useless weapon because most of its abilities are surpassed by the Elite Conjure Fiery Greatsword, making this skill an excellent candidate for a rework or even removal. It's supposed to be a hybrid power/condition weapon but the elite is better at both so the Axe lacks a unique purpose and identity, which is why it's not used anywhere.

    Conjure Fiery Greatsword is a terrible skill for an Elite slot. It's only used for the later skills while the auto attacks are worthless. It's one of those "I pop this, press 4/5 then discard it" kind of weapon which is sad, given the enormous cooldown. Compare https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm with... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) they are both called Firestorm and look redundant, one of these could go, and most likely the Greatsword skill.

    Conjure Frost Bow is the worst of the conjures. It only has 1 useful overall skill (4) and a situational (due to the long cast) CC skill (5). It buffs healing power although the healing output it provides is abysmal. It buffs Condition duration, yet it has a great Power damage skill. This conjure is all over the place and needs kind of a rework. Also, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frost_Storm and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ice_Storm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) are similar, the first applies bleeding, the second chill. Honestly these two skills should be swapped or something.

    I know making these kinds of changes to Firestorm and Frost Storm would nerf Elementalist DPS further. But, both of those skills make the rotation more complex, require the clunky usage of conjures and provide a good amount of damage. Damage that appears on benchmarks and if it's removed somehow, perhaps the rest of the Elementalist can get a boost instead.

    First off, LH is used in exactly the same manner - you press 4, you do an AA chain (which is actually terrible for an ele... I mean, with so many skills available you still resort to auto...) and then you discard it. It's not fundamentally different from the usage pattern of Icebow (which is still used in some places by the way) or FGS. Personally, I like that. It fits the Elementalist concept as a whole - access different weapon skills to use only the best/those applicable to your situation, then move on to another skill set to do the same.

    My only gripe with conjures is how inconvenient their use is, particularly picking them up from the ground. That's plain awful. Aside from that, I don't mind their current state. Sure, I'd like to see Lava Axe being brought to some semblance of useful state. But I wouldn't like to see them made into something powerful enough to make me want to stay on it. It's not what ele is about.

    Furthermore, any changes that begin with "nerf ele further in the name of a brighter future" - no. Just no. I have zero faith in brighter futures in general, and particularly when it comes to ele balance in this game.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Furthermore, any changes that begin with "nerf ele further in the name of a brighter future" - no. Just no. I have zero faith in brighter futures in general, and particularly when it comes to ele balance in this game.

    Well if you put it that way you are right. I have very little faith in Ele balance as well but I was wondering if we could make some conjure changes

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SnowHawk.3615 said:

    Yes, a class does something better than the other, but ele does nothing better than any class, make sense?- maybe I should have worded that better
    I'm just throwing out ideas and my opinion not saying that this is what needs to happen

    and yea my post is big and long bc im frustrated as butt sauce at where ele is right now. the changes aren't really justified without fixes to other skills.

    Yeah, wasn't complaining about the size, sorry i derrailed it a bit, it was late i was cranky, and ranted a bit. Your ideas are valid, and i agree with most of what i didn't comment on.

    Well, ele used to have the best aoe damage in the game, they really did nerf it without buffing other tools, which makes it look less relevant. But that's more perception than reality. A good ele will still be a good addition in any group, and a bad one already was a huge liability. That comes from the class's high skill floor that requires you to be very proficient to be decent, where most other classes have much lower skill floors.

    Like i said so on my first post, i think it would be great if they reworked scepter/focus or even weaver, which is supposed to be a duelist, to have more survivability and a better time at dealing decent damage (in the 30-32k) with a easier rotation than staff. Then rework staff to have a bit more damage, but have that high skill floor required to get it. This should make ele more balanced.
    I think the best first step would be for Arena Net to change health pools according to the elite spec's identity. For example, Weaver is supposed to work with sword more, then why not make it so (even with a trait) that equipping a sword gives an automatic health boost, putting it around the mid-health pool. That alone would improve it a bit.
    Then give a bit more identity to each element, for example, all mixed air skills should have either an engage or a disengage skill, earth should have a bit more defensive skills, fire should be more agression, and water sustain.
    So for example:
    Air+Air, for me it should be the opposite of Polaric leap, you'd jump back with an evade window, and gain super speed. Should also reduce cooldown of Polaric Leap by 20%. This would give ele a bit more control over the fight which is what you want on a duelist.
    Air+earth, should be a disengage+defensive, so i'd pop in a bit of barrier that also applies a blind on enemies around the elementalist.
    Air+water, should be a disengage+sustain, so i'd make it apply chill, give yourself vigor, and if you have superspeed, refresh it's duration.
    Air+Fire, fire wants to be agressive, air is about movement, what i'd do is switch around flame uprising and pyro vortex. Makes more sense that way.

    Fire+Fire seems ok, it does the extra agression part;
    Fire+ Earth also seems good
    Fire+Water lacks the sustain part. I'd add an effect, if enemy is burning, explode the burning stacks, removing the burn stacks but dazing the enemy for 1/4 of a second per stack, up to 2 seconds.

    Earth+water should have a defensive and a sustain component. I'd have a ground-cast skill, about the size of lava font, that slows enemies and heals/pulses regen to allies.

    This is just the mix skills, there are some other skills that could use some re-branding in the weaver kit.

    I really want to point out that you touched an important flaw in how balance works in GW2, it's too often that we see weird changes that aren't really justified or explained, and no compensation for these unjustified nerfs, which usually leaves professions in a worse state than reasonable.
    Look at what happened to Revenant when they changed the only skill that made it relevant for Raids and for a long time didn't give it any other tools to bring it back to importance. Same thing with scourge, they nerfed their damage, no improvement on other things. People abused the gimmick of epidemic, nerf it, and nerf scourge some more because, why not?

  • Talking from a PvP perspective

    The problem ele always had in PvP is the fact his stats doesn't allow the class to equip amulets without healing power and vitality because of his stats deficiency. And that causes another problem: if you buff damage and survivability, those buffs will only buff bunker/support builds, pushing ele into bunker roles with mender amulet even deeper. On top of that, water line is the only viable option for condi cleanse, because every other trait line is built to sinergize with the only good grandmaster trait in water line(cleansing water, also powerful aura is good, but you can't afford to loose condi cleanse for that, even with tempest traitline), and in every build we are locked into water traitline. Also, the stat deficiency does not allow you to play with an offensive amulet with melee weapons: you'll get only mediocre damage with no sustain.
    Imho the ele needs a stat rescaling and needs to rely less on healing power.

    Another problem are fire and earth traitline: they just can't keep up with the power creep: playing with those 2 trait lines is like playing with an unfinished build, they don't give you any relevant effect/buff.

    Air line is actually amazing (you have acces to weakness, superspeed and damage), but there is a problem with fresh air: it syngergizes too much with scepter! It synergize well with dagger autoattack too, but you can't play an offensive amulet as a melee cause of the stat deficiency as i said before.

    Just my two cents, will write more if something comes to my mind. Thanks devs for opening the thread and reading the comments, really appreciated!

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arados.4890 said:
    Talking from a PvP perspective

    The problem ele always had in PvP is the fact his stats doesn't allow the class to equip amulets without healing power and vitality because of his stats deficiency. And that causes another problem: if you buff damage and survivability, those buffs will only buff bunker/support builds, pushing ele into bunker roles with mender amulet even deeper. On top of that, water line is the only viable option for condi cleanse, because every other trait line is built to sinergize with the only good grandmaster trait in water line(cleansing water, also powerful aura is good, but you can't afford to loose condi cleanse for that, even with tempest traitline), and in every build we are locked into water traitline. Also, the stat deficiency does not allow you to play with an offensive amulet with melee weapons: you'll get only mediocre damage with no sustain.
    Imho the ele needs a stat rescaling and needs to rely less on healing power.

    Another problem are fire and earth traitline: they just can't keep up with the power creep: playing with those 2 trait lines is like playing with an unfinished build, they don't give you any relevant effect/buff.

    Air line is actually amazing (you have acces to weakness, superspeed and damage), but there is a problem with fresh air: it syngergizes too much with scepter! It synergize well with dagger autoattack too, but you can't play an offensive amulet as a melee cause of the stat deficiency as i said before.

    Just my two cents, will write more if something comes to my mind. Thanks devs for opening the thread and reading the comments, really appreciated!

    We had this discussion years ago and the consensus was :" remove all heal bursts skills from ele and replace them with something that doesn't scale as well with healing power, but remains equally as effective in providing sustain to the class"

    I don't blame people for being afraid of buffing ele sustain because they are right!, you would end up creating stupid cheese unkillable bunkers that everybody hates but at the same time....they gave melee weapons to a low stats class and now everybody expect ele to survive at melee range in GW2 20018 with specs like holosmith and spellbreaker, or boon soulbeast etc etc...

    I have no solution atm to suggest

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • SnowHawk.3615SnowHawk.3615 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd add this to my long lecture - but
    Conjured weapons are useless.
    Conjure from the ground? sure looks like it'd be cool in person but in reality it isn't - Your best bet is to not do anything with conjured weapons since you can die so fast as it is, and need skills for survivability. If you're in PvE Axe and Shield are pointless, since more often than not you're running a power build to make FGS, or Frostbow useful.
    However, aside from Frostbow AoE skills- none of the others have any point to use. You use the big AoE one and discard and hope another player didn't already grab your 2nd conjured weapon.

    The damage per hit reduction needs to be taken away or buff other skills like Lava font damage, and Ice spike AoE damage. Give more relevant boons and conditions to the class over all.
    Conjured weapons need a damage buff overall to make them relevant. Not a significant one, but they need something definitely tweaking and re-work.
    PvP ele has no real place other than to +1 or hold a point for a small time. Ele on the team? You're basically down a player even if they are good.
    Hybrids are supposed to be able to do it all without being over powered in a single ascpect- Weaver sword focus is the right path for ele imo- leaving core ele useless and tempest as a boring almost support that offers no relevant boons.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Talking about PVE now:
    What would everyone say if they removed Conjures from the game, or at the very least they rework them to fit a very specific playstyle.
    I think the best Conjure at the moment is the Lightning Hammer. It's the only conjure with a set style and the only Conjure with useful auto attacks, it's the only Conjure that you cast it and use it's full potential instead of cast it to get access to one or two skills then discard it. It buffs critical chance and critical damage, all the skills are about dealing high power damage, a leap and some crowd control.

    Earth Shield is another well designed Conjure weapon with abilities that fit with each other. The main issue with it is that it's not very useful in PVE, it's a defensive/tanking weapon.

    Conjure Flame Axe is a mostly useless weapon because most of its abilities are surpassed by the Elite Conjure Fiery Greatsword, making this skill an excellent candidate for a rework or even removal. It's supposed to be a hybrid power/condition weapon but the elite is better at both so the Axe lacks a unique purpose and identity, which is why it's not used anywhere.

    Conjure Fiery Greatsword is a terrible skill for an Elite slot. It's only used for the later skills while the auto attacks are worthless. It's one of those "I pop this, press 4/5 then discard it" kind of weapon which is sad, given the enormous cooldown. Compare https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm with... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) they are both called Firestorm and look redundant, one of these could go, and most likely the Greatsword skill.

    Conjure Frost Bow is the worst of the conjures. It only has 1 useful overall skill (4) and a situational (due to the long cast) CC skill (5). It buffs healing power although the healing output it provides is abysmal. It buffs Condition duration, yet it has a great Power damage skill. This conjure is all over the place and needs kind of a rework. Also, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frost_Storm and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ice_Storm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) are similar, the first applies bleeding, the second chill. Honestly these two skills should be swapped or something.

    I know making these kinds of changes to Firestorm and Frost Storm would nerf Elementalist DPS further. But, both of those skills make the rotation more complex, require the clunky usage of conjures and provide a good amount of damage. Damage that appears on benchmarks and if it's removed somehow, perhaps the rest of the Elementalist can get a boost instead.

    First off, LH is used in exactly the same manner - you press 4, you do an AA chain (which is actually terrible for an ele... I mean, with so many skills available you still resort to auto...) and then you discard it. It's not fundamentally different from the usage pattern of Icebow (which is still used in some places by the way) or FGS. Personally, I like that. It fits the Elementalist concept as a whole - access different weapon skills to use only the best/those applicable to your situation, then move on to another skill set to do the same.

    My only gripe with conjures is how inconvenient their use is, particularly picking them up from the ground. That's plain awful. Aside from that, I don't mind their current state. Sure, I'd like to see Lava Axe being brought to some semblance of useful state. But I wouldn't like to see them made into something powerful enough to make me want to stay on it. It's not what ele is about.

    Furthermore, any changes that begin with "nerf ele further in the name of a brighter future" - no. Just no. I have zero faith in brighter futures in general, and particularly when it comes to ele balance in this game.

    There are various playstyles for conjures.
    You can use them as your main weapon while camping an attunement that has poor skills (the old LH in water attunement style, still very good at early levels)
    You can use them as utility situationally to cover something that you can't with your weapon (like using frostbow for CC, or LH against projectile reflecting opponents)
    You can use them quickly for burst (LH and FGS are good example of burst)

    They do need improvements but really don't need to be removed. They are very cool concepts and a great utility for a class with no weapon swap.
    1: Make the conjure utility ammunition based.
    2: Make the conjure utility summon only one weapon per use. It summons one weapon at the caster hands if the caster is inside the conjure AoE, and summons at the ground if the caster is not inside the AoE.
    3: Frostbow skill 4: froststorm needs to apply chill to foes and regen to allies instead of bleeding. Making frostbow a good CC option for ele.
    4: Flame axe skill 1: lava axe needs to apply burning so that Flame axe becomes more condition based

  • For WvW Only please hug bunnies!

    Arcane Trait line
    -add 1.5 seconds fury to "Arcane Prowess" when you switch attunements
    -Increase Recharge Reduced: from 15% to 25% for Elemental Enchantment

    **Fire Trait line **
    -Add 1.5 second burn damage to Minor Mastery Fire Spot
    -Minor Grandmaster Burning Rage from 10% damage to 15% damage
    -Blinding Ashes change cooldown back to 5 seconds.

    Air Trait line
    -Increase damage of Minor Master Electric Discharge by 50%
    -Tempest Defense Shocking Aura (4s): Stun nearby attacking foes with an electric shock (only once per 1 seconds for each attacker) instead of 2 seconds
    - Increase Major Grandmaster damage Lightning Rod by 30%

    Earth Trait line
    -Major Adept Serrated Stones gains Bleed Duration Increase to 33% and increase damage to bleeding fores by 15%
    -Increase range of Minor Master Earthen Blast to 360 radius
    -Rock solid grant stabilty for 3 seconds to nearby allies when attuning to earth

    Water Trait line
    -Cleansing Wave Removes 2 condition from you and your allies when attuning to water. (360 Radius)
    -Aquatic Benevolence Healing done to allies is increased below 50% Hp increased to 33% 0% to allies above 50% (Only affects healing done to other allies and not the elementalist.)
    -Powerful Aura increased to 800 radius

    Utility skills
    -Lightning Flash reduced cd from 40 to 32 and increase range from 900 to 1200.
    -Mist Form Applies 1 stack of chill every second to enemies in a 240 radius.
    -Armor of Earth applies a 240 radius stun to enemies nearby up to 5 for 1 second

    LETS MAKE CORE BETTER GUYS ONE STEP AT A TIME!

    Sword Weavers are decent 1v1 vs non POF metas in wvw. Sadly sword still has low packet damage, very small range and is easy to read. Good luck catching holo, mirage, or firebrand if fleeing from battle. You will never catch the others. And chill from Reapers gibs you so hard.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @Waisenpai.6028 said:
    For WvW Only please hug bunnies!

    Arcane Trait line
    -add 1.5 seconds fury to "Arcane Prowess" when you switch attunements
    -Increase Recharge Reduced: from 15% to 25% for Elemental Enchantment

    **Fire Trait line **
    -Add 1.5 second burn damage to Minor Mastery Fire Spot
    -Minor Grandmaster Burning Rage from 10% damage to 15% damage
    -Blinding Ashes change cooldown back to 5 seconds.

    Air Trait line
    -Increase damage of Minor Master Electric Discharge by 50%
    -Tempest Defense Shocking Aura (4s): Stun nearby attacking foes with an electric shock (only once per 1 seconds for each attacker) instead of 2 seconds
    - Increase Major Grandmaster damage Lightning Rod by 30%

    Earth Trait line
    -Major Adept Serrated Stones gains Bleed Duration Increase to 33% and increase damage to bleeding fores by 15%
    -Increase range of Minor Master Earthen Blast to 360 radius
    -Rock solid grant stabilty for 3 seconds to nearby allies when attuning to earth

    Water Trait line
    -Cleansing Wave Removes 2 condition from you and your allies when attuning to water. (360 Radius)
    -Aquatic Benevolence Healing done to allies is increased below 50% Hp increased to 33% 0% to allies above 50% (Only affects healing done to other allies and not the elementalist.)
    -Powerful Aura increased to 800 radius

    Utility skills
    -Lightning Flash reduced cd from 40 to 32 and increase range from 900 to 1200.
    -Mist Form Applies 1 stack of chill every second to enemies in a 240 radius.
    -Armor of Earth applies a 240 radius stun to enemies nearby up to 5 for 1 second

    LETS MAKE CORE BETTER GUYS ONE STEP AT A TIME!

    I really like those suggestions, though I think Cleansing Wave might be a bit much.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Milosz.5938Milosz.5938 Member ✭✭
    edited August 22, 2018

    Hello there,
    First of all. I'm very happy when I see such topics - invitation to discasion in open forum - from GM's. You are great team :) Also im almost non- pvp player soo all my comment is only for PVE and I have to say that my main character (and also almost the only playable) is elementalist.
    In buffing or nerfing elementalist everyone has to be very careful - because it can shake core of the game. Elemenatlist cannot be too strong in damage because its role will be only damage kite (soo no fun) and many abused in wrong ways (simmilar like chronomancer in insane tank situations). I think that damage is not the way that you should go in changing ele (it's already not the main role). The problem is in that ele has many (all) common things from all professions (like barrier, teleportation etc.) but nothing of that work good. A little bit good in all = good in nothing. That good thing should be survival skill (one) and it could be a barrier - a specialy for weaver with sword in PVE. Because level and utility of barrier - sorry but it's parody. You already have good traits just work with them. Also I think and I want to invite you to participate in normal PVE game (incognito) as normal player and as elementalist (without any immortality buffs etc.): map completition, events, meta, jumping puzzles, collecting materials etc etc. I know - it can be boring for you - but it can really help you to understand your beloved players and their needs ;).

    PS. Im very sorry for any mistakes (try to understand that english is not my native language)

    I feel like Boon Master. No! Wait! I'm elementalist...

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 22, 2018

    @Gaile Gray.6029 Go to WvW sometime and play with a DPS staff weaver build. You might find that it'll help and see things from our perspective. I remember other devs guest raiding with guilds, as well as roaming while streaming, so this shouldn't be too hard.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Talking about PVE now:
    What would everyone say if they removed Conjures from the game, or at the very least they rework them to fit a very specific playstyle.
    I think the best Conjure at the moment is the Lightning Hammer. It's the only conjure with a set style and the only Conjure with useful auto attacks, it's the only Conjure that you cast it and use it's full potential instead of cast it to get access to one or two skills then discard it. It buffs critical chance and critical damage, all the skills are about dealing high power damage, a leap and some crowd control.

    Earth Shield is another well designed Conjure weapon with abilities that fit with each other. The main issue with it is that it's not very useful in PVE, it's a defensive/tanking weapon.

    Conjure Flame Axe is a mostly useless weapon because most of its abilities are surpassed by the Elite Conjure Fiery Greatsword, making this skill an excellent candidate for a rework or even removal. It's supposed to be a hybrid power/condition weapon but the elite is better at both so the Axe lacks a unique purpose and identity, which is why it's not used anywhere.

    Conjure Fiery Greatsword is a terrible skill for an Elite slot. It's only used for the later skills while the auto attacks are worthless. It's one of those "I pop this, press 4/5 then discard it" kind of weapon which is sad, given the enormous cooldown. Compare https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm with... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) they are both called Firestorm and look redundant, one of these could go, and most likely the Greatsword skill.

    Conjure Frost Bow is the worst of the conjures. It only has 1 useful overall skill (4) and a situational (due to the long cast) CC skill (5). It buffs healing power although the healing output it provides is abysmal. It buffs Condition duration, yet it has a great Power damage skill. This conjure is all over the place and needs kind of a rework. Also, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frost_Storm and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ice_Storm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) are similar, the first applies bleeding, the second chill. Honestly these two skills should be swapped or something.

    I know making these kinds of changes to Firestorm and Frost Storm would nerf Elementalist DPS further. But, both of those skills make the rotation more complex, require the clunky usage of conjures and provide a good amount of damage. Damage that appears on benchmarks and if it's removed somehow, perhaps the rest of the Elementalist can get a boost instead.

    First off, LH is used in exactly the same manner - you press 4, you do an AA chain (which is actually terrible for an ele... I mean, with so many skills available you still resort to auto...) and then you discard it. It's not fundamentally different from the usage pattern of Icebow (which is still used in some places by the way) or FGS. Personally, I like that. It fits the Elementalist concept as a whole - access different weapon skills to use only the best/those applicable to your situation, then move on to another skill set to do the same.

    My only gripe with conjures is how inconvenient their use is, particularly picking them up from the ground. That's plain awful. Aside from that, I don't mind their current state. Sure, I'd like to see Lava Axe being brought to some semblance of useful state. But I wouldn't like to see them made into something powerful enough to make me want to stay on it. It's not what ele is about.

    Furthermore, any changes that begin with "nerf ele further in the name of a brighter future" - no. Just no. I have zero faith in brighter futures in general, and particularly when it comes to ele balance in this game.

    There are various playstyles for conjures.
    You can use them as your main weapon while camping an attunement that has poor skills (the old LH in water attunement style, still very good at early levels)
    You can use them as utility situationally to cover something that you can't with your weapon (like using frostbow for CC, or LH against projectile reflecting opponents)
    You can use them quickly for burst (LH and FGS are good example of burst)

    They do need improvements but really don't need to be removed. They are very cool concepts and a great utility for a class with no weapon swap.
    1: Make the conjure utility ammunition based.
    2: Make the conjure utility summon only one weapon per use. It summons one weapon at the caster hands if the caster is inside the conjure AoE, and summons at the ground if the caster is not inside the AoE.
    3: Frostbow skill 4: froststorm needs to apply chill to foes and regen to allies instead of bleeding. Making frostbow a good CC option for ele.
    4: Flame axe skill 1: lava axe needs to apply burning so that Flame axe becomes more condition based

    Oh, I never said they should be removed. All I'm opposing to is making them strong enough so you always want to camp them. I like their current use in the meta - get the conjure, fire the big bombs, drop it. It fits my idea of the ele ideal playstyle and concept.

    With that said, I'm all for the changes you proposed. Yes, Lava Axe is underwhelming, and there's an open spot for a condi-based conjure. Yes, ammo-based conjures described as above would be HUGE QoL. No more stealing my conjures, no more someone screwing up the tanking and covering my conjure with Dhuumfire, no more missed pickups for half a second? Shut up and take my money. So yeah. These are the changes I'd like to see.

  • Mithos.9023Mithos.9023 Member ✭✭✭

    My perspective of elemetalist comes from pve and wvw, as I don’t have any pvp experience.

    • But first something general:

    I think one of the biggest issues of elemetalist is that it was described by arena net as a jack of all trades, who is capable of everything but exceeds in no place. While the general design, with different attunements, seems like it was meant that way we can also see a different design within the elemtalist, which clashes with the jack of all trades approach. If you look at staff and the fact elemetalist hast the lowest health and lowest armor rating it is clear that it was also designed as the long-range highest dps and lowest defense mage class we are used to from other games. And beeing highest dps over 5 years seems to support this. But how are we the classic mage and at the same time a jack of all trades class? The designs contradict themselves and that is why elementalist has a lot of problems and will have until it finally gets a straight design direction.

    But there is more, the jack of all trades design fails in itself. Just look at it, will you become a healer just because you switched to water? No. Do you become a tank when you switch to earth? No. Without the traits and gear to back it up there is more or less nothing to gain from attunements. You simply can’t fulfill a role just by attunement swapping.

    This is even more of a problem when you look for example at the water attunement:

    With having a lot of damage skills mixed into water, it is not even a full healing/support aspect. The skills do terrible damage anyway so why not remove them and give it more healing options? Or specify the water attunement more for each weapon, for example have only healing/support or damage spell, not both mixed together. Even the traitline is a mix of damage oriented and support oriented traits leaving us here with an unbelievable mess. Other classes like revenent and druid are straighter forward when it comes to their healing specs. But I have to admit I don’t know what the best course of action would be, as switching to water/earth even air is a problem in high end pve. You lose too much damage most of the time for too little utility, which would warrant more damage in those attunements.
    Another idea I discussed here recently was to introduce a trait that would turn healing form water attunement into damage, opening the option to use it as support, or traited as damage option. With more weapon skills related to healing this could change the focus of water quite substantial dependent on what is needed.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/565895#Comment_565895

    • Weapon and Conjures:

    Next big problem is the weapon design. While having 20 skills with 4 different directions seems like you would be capable to adjust to any situation, it simply fails. It is the Problem of range-lock. While we have more skills than other professions, they are mostly one range, either range or close combat only. This limits adaption in combat in a way that no other class has to face. Engie to an extent, but they can at least adapt a little with kits. Here it seems to me that conjures were meant to solve this, but in their current state they can’t cut it. They are terrible and inflexible. They override all your 20 weapon skills and the moment you don’t need them anymore and switch back, they are gone. You could in theory pick up the second one but it comes with too many problems. Either they are gone as well, when you come over the 30s threshold, they are picked up by someone else, or they are in spot where you can’t access it anymore. Not to mention even if you pick it up it is slow and cost a huge amount of time. Overall, they are too inflexible, have too long of a cast time to play them reactively and thanks to the positioning problem you mostly get to use only one per cast. So having those skills for maybe 3-4 seconds with a 60s cd they are simply no tool to adapt to combat flow.
    My solution would be to change them to kits as well, but with a new ability, a new F-Skill (F5-F0) above the conjure skill which would act as summoning skill to share them. It would have a 30 s cd to cast a conjure for your allies.
    Also, we could use a conjure healing skill. This would give us the option to remove the healing on frost bow auto attack as well. It never fitted to its damage/chill/cc design.

    • Tempest and Auras:

    As many have pointed out Tempest problem lies within the auras. It can do good healing but the initial mechanic, auras are problematic as they are simply worthless. Wile earth and air aura are fine to some extent I found frost aura and especially fire aura extremely underwhelming. No underwhelming is not strong enough to express how much I don’t like them. Fire aura as the focus skill is in my opinion the worst skill this game has to offer.
    I would change fire aura in the way that it no longer grants might on getting hit, but instead constantly pulses might to yourself and on top of it as fire is the offensive one give it low radius, low damage 5 target aoe, pulsing every second. This would give tempest offensive support as you could increase group dps through sharing fire aura. Next is frost aura which is not in a good state as well. The damage mitigation is just too small, 10% won’t save you when you are under focus. And while chill is an important condition its effect is still not enough to make this aura a useful effect.
    I see two ways here, either increase the dmg reducing effect for example by increasing the mitigation (maybe double it?) against foes that are chilled to give it some kind of synergy with the chill application. My other idea is to give it a dmg effect like my proposed fire aura but with a lower target cap and double the damage against chilled foes. Just some ideas but auras are in a need of a change they simply are not powerful and important enough as a supportive buff.
    Let me throw an idea in for a trait change in here. For Pyromancer's Puissance, add an effect to it, that procs a small aoe around you (low damage) throwing sparks whenever you gain might, with a one second icd. Might be an interesting combination with the fire aura change.

    • For skills I posted something in another tread already but it I think it fits here as well:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/446046#Comment_446046

    Now to add new thoughts to it Flame Burst could use an update as well. It has no impact at the moment, as staff has no focus on inflicting conditions. My idea is that after the initial effect a cloud of flames start to emerge that starts to move in the direction Flame Burst was cast. It would become slightly bigger over 3 seconds and burn as well as damage foes running through it.
    Last do something about auto attacks, things like stoning are simply no fun because of how incredible weak and slow they are.

  • Sunshine.5014Sunshine.5014 Member ✭✭✭

    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    That will push us to the same cycle of over buff/overnerf again.

    What we need is:

    • Instead of raw damage buff, we need more ways to deal damage reliability (as in, skills don't have to rely on dumb opponents)
    • Instead of raw healing buff, we need more active defense (teleport, counter, superspeed, blind, weakness, block)
    • Instead of more boons, we need to nerf Ele boons access, and spread the Condi cleanse from Water to all the lines.

    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

  • @Sunshine.5014 said:
    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    That will push us to the same cycle of over buff/overnerf again.

    What we need is:

    • Instead of raw damage buff, we need more ways to deal damage reliability (as in, skills don't have to rely on dumb opponents)
    • Instead of raw healing buff, we need more active defense (teleport, counter, superspeed, blind, weakness, block)
    • Instead of more boons, we need to nerf Ele boons access, and spread the Condi cleanse from Water to all the lines.

    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    Couldn't agree more with these suggestions!

  • Usagi.4835Usagi.4835 Member ✭✭
    edited August 22, 2018

    @Mithos.9023 said:
    My perspective of elemetalist comes from pve and wvw, as I don’t have any pvp experience.
    This is even more of a problem when you look for example at the water attunement:

    With having a lot of damage skills mixed into water, it is not even a full healing/support aspect. The skills do terrible damage anyway so why not remove them and give it more healing options? Or specify the water attunement more for each weapon, for example have only healing/support or damage spell, not both mixed together. Even the traitline is a mix of damage oriented and support oriented traits leaving us here with an unbelievable mess. Other classes like revenent and druid are straighter forward when it comes to their healing specs. But I have to admit I don’t know what the best course of action would be, as switching to water/earth even air is a problem in high end pve. You lose too much damage most of the time for too little utility, which would warrant more damage in those attunements.
    Another idea I discussed here recently was to introduce a trait that would turn healing form water attunement into damage, opening the option to use it as support, or traited as damage option. With more weapon skills related to healing this could change the focus of water quite substantial dependent on what is needed.

    The trait seems a little confused and maybe redundant; surely, the solution would be to add or buff existing utility on those skills, rather than over-complicating the class by adding a new trait? I don't see the devs allocating resources to vastly redesigning ele, which is why I proposed they just revert overzealous nerfs on damaging skills/traits like Lava Font and Electric Discharge because, as it stands, there is no reward or payoff for investing into zerk or DPS roles.

    @Mithos.9023 said:

    • Tempest and Auras:

    As many have pointed out Tempest problem lies within the auras. It can do good healing but the initial mechanic, auras are problematic as they are simply worthless. Wile earth and air aura are fine to some extent I found frost aura and especially fire aura extremely underwhelming. No underwhelming is not strong enough to express how much I don’t like them. Fire aura as the focus skill is in my opinion the worst skill this game has to offer.
    I would change fire aura in the way that it no longer grants might on getting hit, but instead constantly pulses might to yourself and on top of it as fire is the offensive one give it low radius, low damage 5 target aoe, pulsing every second. This would give tempest offensive support as you could increase group dps through sharing fire aura. Next is frost aura which is not in a good state as well. The damage mitigation is just too small, 10% won’t save you when you are under focus. And while chill is an important condition its effect is still not enough to make this aura a useful effect.
    I see two ways here, either increase the dmg reducing effect for example by increasing the mitigation (maybe double it?) against foes that are chilled to give it some kind of synergy with the chill application. My other idea is to give it a dmg effect like my proposed fire aura but with a lower target cap and double the damage against chilled foes. Just some ideas but auras are in a need of a change they simply are not powerful and important enough as a supportive buff.
    Let me throw an idea in for a trait change in here. For Pyromancer's Puissance, add an effect to it, that procs a small aoe around you (low damage) throwing sparks whenever you gain might, with a one second icd. Might be an interesting combination with the fire aura change.

    I agree with you about Fire Shield and think, at the very least, the fire focus skills should be redesigned or replaced with something better. Obviously, it's quite different in a PvE setting, but in PvP/WvW, the damage reduction/chill from Frost Aura is quite strong. I'm really quite wary of ANet getting off track and adding far too many bells and whistles.

    I don't think, before the March balance patch, that there was such an identity crisis with ele as there seems to be now, and I think it's because they went overboard with the nerfs but did not compensate with any appreciable buffs. Why didn't they split the diminishing returns change to Meteor Shower in PvP? I don't think staff is even widely used in PvP, and the change was obviously aimed at shaving down damage in raids. Because the game isn't designed with set roles in mind, my impression is that they have to artificially force roles so that all professions see equal play in raids so, as much as I'd like to see an end to the obsession with golem benchmarks, I don't think it will go away.

  • @steki.1478 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    just give ele 5000 more base hp, remove stealth from the game entirely and give ele the same barrier as necro (either more barrier for ele or a lot less for necro, either works). The rest would sort itself out.

    That's a bit extreme just saying

    why? necros have more hp AND barrier and less restrictions, so giving the same hp and barrier would actually fair.

    And as long as a thief or mesmer can jump you out of stealth and just burst you down with no defense at all, why are we even talking about balancing?

    Necros dont have any mobility, active defenses, useful stun breaks and the list goes on. 90% of their defense comes from health, which is in some situations useless. The last thing we need is another unkillable build that damages everything it sees, like warrior currently.

    necros have no mobility? So you are telling me that all the necros running away from me, with perma swiftness up+lightning flash+twist of fate are cheaters?

  • btw, for balancing: let the balancing team play wvw for whole week as staff weaver. Then they will know, how broken warrior, mirage, deadeye and necro really are and that ele is in such a bad spot, that there is no time to waste for an emergency buff all around.

    How about doubling the damage on meteor shower again? Just for a start?

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    btw, for balancing: let the balancing team play wvw for whole week as staff weaver. Then they will know, how broken warrior, mirage, deadeye and necro really are and that ele is in such a bad spot, that there is no time to waste for an emergency buff all around.

    How about doubling the damage on meteor shower again? Just for a start?

    You are clearly biased towards Elementalists, most ele mains dont want to be as broken as mesmer believe it or not, but what you are saying will make Ele OP af

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    That will push us to the same cycle of over buff/overnerf again.

    What we need is:

    • Instead of raw damage buff, we need more ways to deal damage reliability (as in, skills don't have to rely on dumb opponents)
    • Instead of raw healing buff, we need more active defense (teleport, counter, superspeed, blind, weakness, block)
    • Instead of more boons, we need to nerf Ele boons access, and spread the Condi cleanse from Water to all the lines.

    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    That sounds a lot like homogenization to me. Pass. I prefer the straight dps buff. I like how fragile the gameplay is and I don't care it doesn't translate well in PvP. It should be possible in PvE, and it should be rewarded accordingly.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Talking about PVE now:
    What would everyone say if they removed Conjures from the game, or at the very least they rework them to fit a very specific playstyle.
    I think the best Conjure at the moment is the Lightning Hammer. It's the only conjure with a set style and the only Conjure with useful auto attacks, it's the only Conjure that you cast it and use it's full potential instead of cast it to get access to one or two skills then discard it. It buffs critical chance and critical damage, all the skills are about dealing high power damage, a leap and some crowd control.

    Earth Shield is another well designed Conjure weapon with abilities that fit with each other. The main issue with it is that it's not very useful in PVE, it's a defensive/tanking weapon.

    Conjure Flame Axe is a mostly useless weapon because most of its abilities are surpassed by the Elite Conjure Fiery Greatsword, making this skill an excellent candidate for a rework or even removal. It's supposed to be a hybrid power/condition weapon but the elite is better at both so the Axe lacks a unique purpose and identity, which is why it's not used anywhere.

    Conjure Fiery Greatsword is a terrible skill for an Elite slot. It's only used for the later skills while the auto attacks are worthless. It's one of those "I pop this, press 4/5 then discard it" kind of weapon which is sad, given the enormous cooldown. Compare https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm with... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Firestorm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) they are both called Firestorm and look redundant, one of these could go, and most likely the Greatsword skill.

    Conjure Frost Bow is the worst of the conjures. It only has 1 useful overall skill (4) and a situational (due to the long cast) CC skill (5). It buffs healing power although the healing output it provides is abysmal. It buffs Condition duration, yet it has a great Power damage skill. This conjure is all over the place and needs kind of a rework. Also, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frost_Storm and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ice_Storm_(Glyph_of_Storms_skill) are similar, the first applies bleeding, the second chill. Honestly these two skills should be swapped or something.

    I know making these kinds of changes to Firestorm and Frost Storm would nerf Elementalist DPS further. But, both of those skills make the rotation more complex, require the clunky usage of conjures and provide a good amount of damage. Damage that appears on benchmarks and if it's removed somehow, perhaps the rest of the Elementalist can get a boost instead.

    I would love conjures to be removed - a skill that when used reduces your available skills from 20 to 5, and requires you to pick it up again to continue to have only 5 skills fro an extended period of time. Truly awful.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Usagi.4835Usagi.4835 Member ✭✭
    edited August 22, 2018

    @Sunshine.5014 said:

    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    That will push us to the same cycle of over buff/overnerf again.

    What we need is:

    • Instead of raw damage buff, we need more ways to deal damage reliability (as in, skills don't have to rely on dumb opponents)
    • Instead of raw healing buff, we need more active defense (teleport, counter, superspeed, blind, weakness, block)
    • Instead of more boons, we need to nerf Ele boons access, and spread the Condi cleanse from Water to all the lines.

    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    It's really simple, and people don't need to be scratching their heads so hard to reinvent the class. No buffs, just revert some of the heavy-handed nerfs. We have very good access to superspeed. We have blinds. We have good weakness application if you have enough crit chance. We have blocks. I agree with Feanor. Maybe I'm missing the big picture, but if classes do largely the same amount of damage and bring the same thing to the table, what's the difference besides flavour text and graphics? Colour me cynical.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2018

    Last time I presented some smaller tweaks, mostly on skills (can be found on page 2). Now I'll be a bit more detailed about main class problems as well as suggest some long term changes on traits and general theme of each attunement.
    Game mode : general unless stated otherwise
    Post length: very long

    Main problems would be:
    1) boon generation and boon uptime
    2) lack of trait identity: traits force camping attunements for most benefit while weapon skills are designed to constantly swap between attunements
    3) auras are scattered all over ele's kits, but they are extremely weak skills
    4) lots of useless traits and good ones being grouped in the same column

    1) 90% of boon uptimes are concentrated around arcane spec and traited tempest auras. Both of those can only upkeep swiftness, regen and vigor for a long time, with protection lagging behind a bit. Might and fury mostly come from blasting fields or from camping attunement (problem 2). Stability is mostly part of elite specs since core ele gets it mostly from armor of earth which comes with huge cooldown (tornado and earth trait are quite weak to be worth using anywhere). Other boons arent even present on ele (and most of them dont even fit thematically).
    Solution idea: adding more boon traits through elemental specializations and even on some skills, without requiring traits (burning speed/meteor shower grants might per target hit, water trident grants regen on hit, lightning surge gives fury if it crits, earthquake grant protection per target and so on).

    2) Each specialization gets a minor trait that gives bonus stats and some major traits that give some effect while staying in that element. Weapon skills per attunement dont fit all roles to justify camping that attunement. In any solo scenario I do damage until I get low on hp, I swap to water/earth for some defense, I go to fire/air to do more damage or use CC from water/air/earth and so on. I cant camp fire attunement because I'll eventually need heals/blocks/cc which cant be found on fire skills. I cant camp earth because it doesnt have many damaging tools...
    Basically what I'm trying to say is that specializing into certain element, mastering it, shouldn't mean that we get more benefits from its skills (it might not make much sense, but we don't use all weapon skills at once so it's good for balance). It should instead share its main focus with other attunements. To explain better: specializing into fire would improve damage and burning overall. Similar can be said for other elements. Benefits that weapon skills would get should be on minor traits only.
    Solution idea: making all those "get X while you stay in Y attunement" bonuses permanent. Ele already has lowest amount of base stats among all classes, so having additional stats permanently from traits sounds balanced. If ele is designed to be a hybrid class, it can even share those stats with allies (preferably on major trait) or pulse aoe effect like soothing mist.
    Soothing mist change: instead of pulsing constantly while staying in water, it should grant 8-10 second effect that triggers only on attuning to water. Multiple instances of mist will refresh duration to maximum; the active mist will be the one with highest healing output.

    3) Aura rework
    I came up with one aura model that fixes both boon problem and introduces more attunement swapping. Considering that some other classes have access to auras on top of better boon generation, they would probably need to have those skills rebalanced or aura sources limited to minimum (or even completely removed). Alternatively, all aura changes could only benefit elementalists, but that means that tempest wont be able to share any of those benefits with allies.
    New aura mechanic: rather than completely relying on being hit to get something from aura, auras would additionally grant boons when you hit enemy while having aura and do a small "explosion" in melee range (triggers only once on same aura - on 4 or 6 seconds that is; triggers in small aoe radius on hit/being hit at close range). Explosion will remove aura and prevent it from reapplying for a few seconds. Enemy suffers from only one "on being hit" effect (I believe that current implementation works like this).

    Fire aura (shield): gain might when hitting enemy, burn/damage enemy when you get hit (same effect as retal, but stacks with retal), 3-5 stacks of burning in melee range (explosion part).
    Frost aura: small heal on hit, chill on being hit, freeze (icebow 5 effect with shorter duration; cooldown per target) in melee.
    Shocking aura: fury on hit, vulnerability on being hit, long daze/short stun(5+ sec cooldown per target in pvp modes) in melee.
    Magnetic aura: protection on hit, cripple on being hit, short immobilize+bleed in melee range. All skills with current magnetic aura effect would reflect by default.

    Another idea: aura explosions can only happen after X amount of boon and Y amount of condition was applied. Explosion effects can also scale with those two amounts. Since auras are big part of boon uptime now, it'd be unproductive if auras popped instantly without giving any boons.

    How do we get auras?

    • Each elemental specialization will have minor trait that grants aura on attunement swap (these traits trigger on finishing specific overload on tempest).
    • Weapon skills. Each weapon skill that grants aura will now provide some effect based on weapon range (frost aura on dagger can freeze nearby foes, fire aura on focus would damage target at 900 range for example) and have aura as secondary part.
    • Shouts on tempest.

    Each elemental spec will have major trait that grants effect (might, regen, fury, protection from each attunement respectively) on every aura application and improve its aura's duration (from 4 to 6 seconds). Arcane spec could have traits that give certain benefits depending on present auras, improve boon generation from auras etc. Tempest would make aura share baseline and add boons that ele cant get otherwise (retaliation - removed from arcane, alacrity, quickness, aegis per element respectively). Weaver can replace every instance of these 4 auras with 1 (lets call it "elemental aura"). No matter which of these auras you receive (from any source), it will be turned into elemental aura and have slightly lowered effects of auras from 2 attunements you currently have : 75% of each if dual, 150% if fully attuned; weaver auras can have static effect - the one you get on receiving aura (they might need specific names like plasma, steam...), or they can change their effect on each attunement swap (sounds like it would be hard to implement).

    Additional (and optional) way of getting self buffs, more trait benefits and even elite spec development: a new resource, lets call it attuned core. You get these cores from swapping attunements and receiving auras (with a maximum stack of 4 for example). Traits like minor adepts from elemental specializations could grant stats per core. Those specializations could have traits that benefit from these (burning enemies cleanse 1 condition per core, chill does pulsing damage per core, disables transfer boon and condition per core, incoming critical strikes cleanse/grant barrier per core for example). Arcane could further increase core's supply and add some benefits - number of conditions per critical strike/arcane skill scales with cores, damage output scales with cores instead of boons, might/fury on attunement swap scales with cores etc. Tempest can raise number of maximum stats and make overloads grant additional cores, increase duration on aura boons based on number of cores, add barrier/heal per core on each aura application, have rebound's health scale with cores... Weaver can also have improved barrier based on cores, additional damage on swiftness (swift revenge trait) and so on. New elite specs can use cores as charging resource (like astral force): mechanic available only at X amount of cores (if it's one skill, like specific arcane attunement) or have separate cores that dont deplete (you get fire core on attuning to fire/receiving fire aura; they stack up to 5 times and get removed when you use F1 mechanic).

    4) Ideas I had included attunement cooldown refresh (like fresh air), condition/effect "immunity" (incoming stuns are shorter when specialized into air for example) and skill cooldown reduction as minor traits (only the cdr trait, first two should be major) on each elemental specialization. The reason for last suggestion is that we always have access to all attunements, so we should always benefit from cooldown reduction if we spec into certain element. As an example, if warriors want to use axes they will benefit from axe trait, but that trait is pointless without axes equipped so trait is better as a major rather than minor. That trait never gets wasted on ele, but it takes unnecessary spot as major trait.
    Another point is to make traits in each column have different roles : both diamond skin and stone heart provide defense, but there's no defensive trait in master column in earth. All 3 grandmaster traits in air are focused on damage, all 3 in water on support.
    Example for fire spec: top trait provides direct damage, middle trait improves burning application/duration/damage, bottom trait gives some minor utility/defense or offensive group support. I'll label these as attributes.

    Minor traits on 4 elemental specializations:

    • permanent stat boost (power, healing power, precision, vitality - to avoid toughness issues in pve, respectively)
    • effect on attuning - melee aoe burn, soothing mist, superspeed, aoe cripple+bleed. Aura proc.
    • 20-30% weapon skill cooldown reduction. [Alternative: make all weapon skills cooldowns lower by additional (to previous thread suggestions, mine can be found on page 2) 10% or so, by default - no traits required. Add some effects on element specific skills (might on burning skills, burning on non-burning fire skills, swiftness on wind skills, fury on lightning skills, regen on water skills, brief daze on ice skills, protection on stone skills, bleeding on dust skills)].

    The goal is to have all 'attributes' present in each trait column (utility/support will be different attribute on each element).

    Fire - strong for pve and staff, useless everywhere else. Attributes : damage output, conditions (burning), offensive support.
    Adept:

    • Conjurer could double stats from conjured weapons and/or have those stats for several seconds after dropping. If ammo charges become a thing on conjureds this could be useful in pvp modes. Alternative: it can grant ~10-20% damage while wielding. Always present: Cooldown reduction on utility conjureds (not on their weapon skills).
    • Stat conversion : condi damage->condi duration.
    • Auras grant might on application, improved duration of fire aura.

    Master:

    • Extra damage per stack of might (0,5-1% per stack, 12,5-25% total - it's the only % damage modifier in this fire spec without conjurer alternative).
    • Chance to burn on critical strike/improved damage from burning (10%). Improved duration on burning (20%).
    • Power bonus from minor trait is shared with allies (preferably effect that doesnt stack with empower allies).

    Grandmaster:

    • Persisting flames (unchanged)
    • Pyromancer's puissance: change to gain might (5-8 stacks, 10-15 sec duration) and recharge fire attunement on kill.
    • Burning ashes reworked into active cleanse on burning enemy/attacking a burned enemy (or halved cooldown from current trait).

    Water - not much focus on offensive part of water-ice, traits are either too competitive or there's only one good option per column. Attributes: aoe healing, condi cleanse/self sustain, conditions (vulnerability, chill).
    Adept:

    • Auras grant regeneration on application, improved duration on frost aura.
    • Cantrip trait unchanged (cdr, regen+vigor on cast).
    • Chilling enemies applies vulnerability (whether on application, per second of chill or both). Improved chill duration.

    Master:

    • Stat conversion: healing power -> outgoing healing (100->1% for example).
    • Outgoing regen will cleanse conditions.
    • Chance to freeze foe on chill (2-3 sec duration, 33-50% chance, 10+ cooldown per target in pvp modes)

    Grandmaster:

    • Water fields slowly revive allies per pulse. Reviving allies recharges water attunement.
    • Chilling a foe applies frostbite debuff (4 second dration, refreshes on application, like superspeed). Take less damage from foes with frostbite (10-20%).
    • 5-10% more damage vs vulnerable foes. Vulnerability lasts longer.

    Air - too much focus on damage, competitive traits have same focus. Attributes: critical strikes, mobility/evades, disables.
    Adept:

    • Auras grant fury on application. Improved duration on shocking aura .
    • Casting glyphs grants aoe superspeed to allies (3 seconds). Elementals spawn with 5 second superspeed. Cooldown on glyphs reduced, including elemental passive and active skills.
    • Increased duration of outgoing disables.

    Master:

    • Critical strikes do 15% more damage + stat conversion: precision->ferocity.
    • Evading attacks grants swiftness. Endurance regeneration is faster: 33% with swiftness, 66% with superspeed.
    • Incoming disables transfer 2 conditions to foe (20 cooldown). Outgoing disables transfer 2 boons per enemy (5-15 cooldown; static field might need special interaction with this trait).

    Grandmaster:

    • Critical hits strike foes with lightning discharge (single target damage+vulnerability; 8 second cooldown) and recharge air attunement. Cooldown on lightning discharge is refreshed on swapping to air attunement.
    • Lightning fields last longer and pulse superspeed (one second each second). Blasting lightning fields grants superspeed (3 sec duration, 5-10 cooldown). Core ele would need more sources of lightning field, otherwise this trait serves no purpose outside of staff. Ideas: swirling winds create lightning field. Ride the lightning creates small lightning field at start; upon reaching max range/target, elementalist can recast this skill to swap positions with created field.
      -Lightning rod: disabling enemy strikes it with lightning and applies weakness. Due to removal of discharged lightning from minor, this trait would need increased damage (alternative: add vulnerability and blind).

    Earth - generally just weak traits or traits that grant good bonuses with very unreliable uptimes. Attributes: self defense, defensive support, conditions (bleed, cripple, immobilize, blind).
    Adept:

    • Stat conversion: vitality->toughness.
    • Auras grant protection on application. Increased duration on magnetic aura.
    • Signets keep passive effect on activation. Cooldowns reduced.

    Master:

    • Gain barrier on incoming critical hits and condition applications (small barrier on minimal cooldown).
    • Grant stability when you grant protection (~10 sec cooldown).
    • Bleeding does more damage (10%) and lasts longer (20%).

    Grandmaster:

    • Breaking out of stun recharges earth attunement and grants medium barrier.
    • Blast finishers grant stability (2 stacks, 3 sec duration, 15 sec cooldown for example).
    • Increased duration on cripple and immobilization. Conditions on crippled or immobile enemy last longer.

    All attunement recharge traits should work differently with elite specs. They could reduce attunement cooldown by 8 on tempest, with around 3 second cooldown.

    Arcane - generally a good specialization. I'll add some tweaks to make it have better synergy/concept with other specs.
    Attributes: attunements, critical strikes, boons.

    • Minors: permanent concentration, boon on attuning based on attunement, fury on attunement swap.
    • Arcane resurrection removed (implemented in water spec).
    • Arcane precision: removed global cooldown; added cooldown per attunement (5 for example)
    • Elemental contingency: gain boon on critical hit based on attunement (retal swapped with might, rest unchanged; all durations improved slightly). Renewing stamina removed due to vigor application on water crit.
    • Evasive arcana: improved radius on fire, water and air effects; earth radius slightly reduced to match other 3. Added short weakness on air effect.
    • Bountiful power renamed to bountiful elements and added more effects based on current attunement (3% condi damage in fire, 3% outgoing healing in water, 3% critical strike damage in air, 3% damage reduction in earth per boon). Alternative: gain boon duration based on active boons.

    I dont have any ideas currently for 2 removed traits, but I'll edit if I come up with something.
    Arcane shield can be reworked to be a 2 second block. Reactivating shield will trigger aura explosion effect in melee range and spawn aura, based on attunement. Trait can be changed to do the same thing, with stun break instead of blocking part; triggers on being disabled.

    Tempest
    - Shocking aura added to eye of the storm.
    - Rebound briefly slows nearby enemies and cleanses/converts several conditions on successful "revive" in addition to previous effects.
    - Lightning orb changed to create patches of lightning fields (like wildfire) which pulse small damage and vulnerability.
    - Water globe: water field attached to player.
    - Optional visual flavor on fire and air overloads for more destructive look: make them appear like actual storm, a transformation like tornado skill. Water: add icy particles to swirling water; make water bubble freeze over time and finish in crushing ice explosion. Earth: add more sand/dust below and around rocks.

    Copied from my previous post for easier understanding. Some ideas were scratched because they were a bit too much.

    I'd like to see damaging skills from tempest reworked into offensive support skills. All overloads should have improved radius to 360 and affect 10 allies and at least 5 enemies for every pulse and every impact. If they are remaining as 6 second "wait" time and 4 second channel then they need to have additional effect at the end of the channel (not just irrelevant aoe field that everyone can walk out of). Finishing overload grants effect that triggers on attunement swap from traits (each elemental spec has a trait that procs on attunement swap, arcane excluded) - number of procs on finished overload: 1 or 2 (assuming player has those specializations active). Addition: each overload will trigger aura (from attuning - adept minor trait) if that specialization is equipped.

    Fire overload : pulses minor damage, burning, might, aoe buff that gives burning on hit each second (same effect like ashes of just on FB or sun spirit; stacks up to 5 times - could be reduced in pvp modes; damage scales with allies' stats, not the caster's). Finishing overload grants aoe 5 might, 5-10 seconds of fury and 5 more stacks of this buff. Tornado after overloading and whirl finisher would be removed.
    Water overload : pulses small heal, short regen, vigor and 1 cleanse per second. Cleanses 2 conditions Applies short, aoe freeze (icebow 5 effect), large heal and 5 seconds of vigor and regen on finished overload.
    Air overload : pulses minor damage, swiftness, vulnerability and static charge each second (stacks up to 5 times - could be reduced in pvp modes; damage scales with allies' stats, not the caster's; 1 second internal cooldown per enemy hit might be needed in pvp modes to avoid gimmick 1-shots). Finishing overload grants 3 more charges, applies 5/10 vulnerability brief superspeed and blinds.
    Earth overload : pulses cripple, bleed, minor damage, protection and stability (on all allies as well) per second. Finishing overload grants immobilize, 5 stacks of bleed, 3 stacks of stability (aoe), 5 seconds of protection. Dust cyclone and blast finisher after overloading removed.

    By minor damage I mean something that doesn't crit for over 1k in offensive gear.

    Minors: auras you grant to yourself are shared with allies (water supports with heals and cleanses, tempest is one that supports with auras), gain one stack of stability when charging overload (mirage loses dodge roll but gains superspeed as compensation; tempest is vulnerable while overloading so it should at least have stability as compensation; storms are destructive and impossible to stop after all).
    Attributes: offensive support/debuffs, defensive support/self sustain, utility support.

    Adept:

    • Shouts apply retaliation/alacrity/quickness/aegis based on attunement they are used in. Apply weakness on affected foes.
    • Auras you grant heal/apply barrier on everyone affected.
    • Apply quickness when you apply superspeed. Optional: superspeed you recieve stacks up to 6 seconds.

    Master:

    • Cast heat sync when you reach 20 stacks of might; 20-25 cooldown. Gain boon duration with warhorn.
    • Auras convert conditions into boons (very short icd, if any)
    • Applying aura grants a stack that reduces incoming damage by 3%. Duration 8 seconds, stacks up to 4 times. Self only.

    Grandmaster:

    • Overloading grants aoe effects based on attunement (1 second duration on each pulse): 10% condi damage, 10-20% incoming heal, 15% crit chance, 10-20% damage reduction. Finishing overload grants same bonus for a few seconds.
    • Overloads slow (fire and water) or weaken (air and earth) enemies in them. Finishing overload will apply brief CC (pull, freeze, daze, knockback) based on attunement. Both parts are unblockable. First part can only be negated with invulnerabilities (dodging inside overload will still affect foes, as well as using skills like defy pain).
    • Gain complete immunity to specific effects while overloading and 4 seconds after it (fire-burning and torment, water-chill and vulnerability, air - stun/daze and weakness, earth - bleed, cripple and immobilize).

    Weaver is much more defined than tempest and works fine gameplay wise, it just needs some higher numbers in right spots.

    As a lot of people already mentioned it needs:

    • stronger barrier from traits;
    • its own condi cleanse. Example: rework woven stride to cleanse condition on swiftness (with short cooldown) and superspeed (no cooldown) application;
    • more damage output on swift revenge while under effect of superspeed.

    Community wishlist from demo weekends:

    • Add interaction between dual attunements and glyphs, arcane traits, minor traits from elemental specializations, cooldown reduction on dual skills.
    • Let main hand dagger get vitality bonus from master's fortitude.
    • Get increased bonus from elemental polyphony while fully attuned.

    Edit: formatting, typos and clarity

    • Added suggestion to make aura explosions trigger after certain amount of boons and conditions was applied, as well as potentional scaling of explosion effect with those two amounts.
    • More clarity. More ice effects on water overload. Weakness on tempest shout trait. No more sand squall passive trait. Added unblockable on destructive overload trait. Made fire overload's finish effect stronger due to no "explosive impact" like on other overloads. Changed vulnerability to superspeed on finishing air overload; added swiftness per pulse.

    Deso's favorite FROG
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  • ROMANG.1903ROMANG.1903 Member ✭✭✭

    Ever since I started GW2 (a bit less than 5 years ago), I've been an elementalist main, mainly (but not only) PvE.

    On a class that's so versatile, I find that one of the worst drawbacks is actually to require more than one gear set. I think that stats changing is too expensive and complicated, but that's a more general problem, I just find it more present on a class like the elementalist.

    • Now to the ele, let's start with the core specs:
      I find the core ele to be a good design overall. One of the main issues I have is with the utility skills... I find very few of them are useful in any way. Conjured weapons in particular, feel very clunky to use, enough for me not to use them at all, not even the elite greatsword. The ground-target component which allows allies to (sometimes by mistake) pick it up when you wanted to save it for later, as well as the time limit (both for the weapon in your hand and that on the ground) make me feel particularly limitted in my actions.
      Since I find the ability to give a weapon to an ally to be barely useful, I'd like them mutch better if they had an ammunition/charge system like stances (but please don't make them like engineer kits, the elem gameplay is complicated enough already xD).

    • On the Tempest, I find the specialisation to be waaay to slow in general. First you wait for the Overload to be ready, then you wait for the Overload to end its cast, then you wait 20 seconds for the attunement to be ready again... Perhaps Overloads should be ready mutch sooner, the huge cooldown being enough of a drawback? I particularly hate the interraction between Fresh Air and Air Overload - the former shouldn't reduce the later's cooldown at all, it should only reload the attunement. Because of this, I feel like spamming Air Overload is the only way to play a decent Tempest DPS build, and I find it so uninteresting... I also think offensive Overloads (Air and Fire) should be reworked, perhaps into something with a shorter cast, and then the AOE would folow you around but you would still be able to use others things?

    • The weaver is a very interesting design and I love it. That said, I feel like both the elite stance and the healing stance should have instant initial casts, because both of them require additional actions after they're cast to be fully effective. Unravel doesn't feel good to use as a 5-seconds boon, because sometimes when it is active and you want to dual attune, then you need to wait for the effect to wear off before swapping attunement. In the opposite situation, it can also make you feel like you need to swap attunement early in order to fully attune before the effect disappears. It should perhaps be reworked to either make you fully attune to your current attunement, or make your next attunement swap fully attune instead of only attuning your main hand (with the ability to "uncast" it if we pressed it by mistake or changed our mind).

  • Arados.4890Arados.4890 Member ✭✭
    edited August 22, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    That will push us to the same cycle of over buff/overnerf again.

    What we need is:

    • Instead of raw damage buff, we need more ways to deal damage reliability (as in, skills don't have to rely on dumb opponents)
    • Instead of raw healing buff, we need more active defense (teleport, counter, superspeed, blind, weakness, block)
    • Instead of more boons, we need to nerf Ele boons access, and spread the Condi cleanse from Water to all the lines.

    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    That sounds a lot like homogenization to me. Pass. I prefer the straight dps buff. I like how fragile the gameplay is and I don't care it doesn't translate well in PvP. It should be possible in PvE, and it should be rewarded accordingly.

    Homogenization? yeah sure, we can get more dps buff and trait with damage modifier that gives absolutely nothing to the class, oh wait, that's what we already have! Let's get locked into water line in every build with every elite specialization because every other trait line is forcing you to pick water. Ele right now has "fragile" gameplay, and it has always been, but it's not rewarding, that's the whole point.

  • Conjures :
    - Someone has proposed this before, but making conjure weapons into secondary weapons when they are summoned vs the whole pick up would be nice. Once you conjure a weapon, you "equip" it. You can switch back and forth you're normal weapon set as long as the duration of the conjured weapon is still up.

    Glyph of Storms :
    - Increase the casting range to 1200.

  • Just a random question, but is there a reason why pretty much all Water Skills have to be so severely lacking in damage? I know you swap to the attunement for healing, but it seems like those skills suffer the worst by far. Even more than Earth, which tend to have mitigation factors added in, and with such a low health pool, the ability to not be one-shot feels more valuable than a few ticks of Soothing Mist.

    The way it appears to me, and correct me if I'm wrong:

    Fire = 2nd Best Power Damage + Best Condition Damage
    Air = Best Power Damage + Various Utilities (Weakness, CCs, Projectile Hate, Speed Boosts, etc)
    Water = Healing + Chill
    Earth = 3rd Best Power Damage though some skills comparable to fire + 2nd Best Condition Damage + Various Utilities (Typically mitigation, CCs)

    Maybe hitting things with big chunks of jagged ice could be given the Reaper treatment. Low DPS, sure, but very high "Damage Per Instance" akin to something like Gravedigger. A reward for actually being able to land half of the stuff.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    The way it appears to me, and correct me if I'm wrong:

    Fire = 2nd Best Power Damage + Best Condition Damage
    Air = Best Power Damage + Various Utilities (Weakness, CCs, Projectile Hate, Speed Boosts, etc)
    Water = Healing + Chill
    Earth = 3rd Best Power Damage though some skills comparable to fire + 2nd Best Condition Damage + Various Utilities (Typically mitigation, CCs)

    • Fire: Sustained dmg through power dmg and burns. Steady might generation (with skills or auras), some condition removal (cleansing fire), minor sustain with blinds (blinding ashes)
    • Air: Burst power dmg, mobility and control. Swiftness, superspeed and fury generation (with attunement or auras) and bonuses to precision and ferocity. Higher focus on bursts of power dmg with multiple quick critical hits, vulnerability application, and against disabled (tempest defense) or low hp (bolt to the heart) opponents. Sustain with CC, mobility and weakness.
    • Water: Healing and cleansing. Very low dmg, focus on control (with chill) and sustain (healing and condi cleanse). Regen and vigor boom generation, healing power and outgoing healing bonuses. Focus on steady healing in water attunement (with soothing mist and improved water skills), support (sharing auras and their effects) or cleansing (with cleanses on regen boons, water attunement, etc).
    • Earth: Defense and control. Protection and stability boon generation, lower condi duration and damage defensive bonuses. Focus on defense by reducing incoming dmg and condition duration on you and controlling opponents. Applies cripple, immobilize and bleeding conditions and focuses on hard cc and control.
    • Arcane: Focus on attunement swaping and effects. Reduces attunement CD and improves boom duration. Provides boons and conditions based on attunement to attunement swaps and critical hits, mostly short duration versions of the main attunment traitlines to incentivize quick and constant attunement swap.
  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arados.4890 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    That will push us to the same cycle of over buff/overnerf again.

    What we need is:

    • Instead of raw damage buff, we need more ways to deal damage reliability (as in, skills don't have to rely on dumb opponents)
    • Instead of raw healing buff, we need more active defense (teleport, counter, superspeed, blind, weakness, block)
    • Instead of more boons, we need to nerf Ele boons access, and spread the Condi cleanse from Water to all the lines.

    Please do not propose straight DPS buff, nor propose more healing on the Water traits/skills.

    That sounds a lot like homogenization to me. Pass. I prefer the straight dps buff. I like how fragile the gameplay is and I don't care it doesn't translate well in PvP. It should be possible in PvE, and it should be rewarded accordingly.

    Homogenization? yeah sure, we can get more dps buff and trait with damage modifier that gives absolutely nothing to the class, oh wait, that's what we already have! Let's get locked into water line in every build with every elite specialization because every other trait line is forcing you to pick water. Ele right now has "fragile" gameplay, and it has always been, but it's not rewarding, that's the whole point.

    I never pick water. Not in PvE, not in WvW. I go full glass. And I want to keep doing so. The only problem is, the damage output is no longer enough to justify all the drawbacks. However, I don't want to get rid of the drawbacks - that would be homogenization, as that's what the other dps builds do - I want to get my damage back. And keep ele's identity as a high-skill glass cannon. You want something for PvP? Sure. So long as your "something" doesn't contradict what I want. You want reliable damage? Sure. As long as we get the option to have the same less reliable, but higher output damage builds. You want active defences? Sure. As long as they are not available on a full damage spec, since that would lower its damage potential for balance reasons. Same for condi cleanse. And please, straight dps buff for the full damage spec, kthxbye.

  • I find that ALL base classes are sub-par from expansion enabled classes. The elementalist probably the worst of all. Especially staff elementalist.
    As a WvW player ONLY your expansions offer absolutely nothing of value.
    In fact with each expansion I get robbed of value because I become a second and then third class citizen.
    The expanded classes should be available to WvW people otherwise your game is simply a pay to win model.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    Fire - strong for pve and staff, useless everywhere else.

    This isn't true anymore because Fire is great for Sword Weaver too, both condition and power build.

    Grandmaster:

    • Persisting flames (unchanged)
    • Pyromancer's puissance: change to gain might (5-8 stacks, 10-15 sec duration) and recharge fire attunement on kill.
    • Burning ashes reworked into active cleanse on burning enemy/attacking a burned enemy (or halved cooldown from current trait).

    Pyromancer's Puissance is a trait that works very well as it is now on Sword, due to fire skills on sword being better than Air skills, you camp sword and get 21-22 stacks of might on yourself without boon duration gear. The reason this trait is weak is because only Sword and Staff have good Fire auto attacks, for Dagger and Scepter it's better to swap as quickly as possible to another attunement (in PVE Air - or Earth for condition builds), Allowing you to get back to Fire when you kill something won't fix the Fire skills on those weapons being lackluster, staff users will still use Persisting Flames anyway. And the most important problem in PVE is that someone else (a Druid) will give you your 25 stacks of Might, making might generation useless. Now if Pyromancer's Puissance could be reliably combined with Heat Sync for 25-stack might uptime then we'd get a good Might generation Alternative.

    As for PVP, I think the nature of Elementalist (low health/armor) means relying on defensive trait lines, meaning Fire will always be a secondary option unfortunately

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Fire - strong for pve and staff, useless everywhere else.

    This isn't true anymore because Fire is great for Sword Weaver too, both condition and power build.

    Grandmaster:

    • Persisting flames (unchanged)
    • Pyromancer's puissance: change to gain might (5-8 stacks, 10-15 sec duration) and recharge fire attunement on kill.
    • Burning ashes reworked into active cleanse on burning enemy/attacking a burned enemy (or halved cooldown from current trait).

    Pyromancer's Puissance is a trait that works very well as it is now on Sword, due to fire skills on sword being better than Air skills, you camp sword and get 21-22 stacks of might on yourself without boon duration gear. The reason this trait is weak is because only Sword and Staff have good Fire auto attacks, for Dagger and Scepter it's better to swap as quickly as possible to another attunement (in PVE Air - or Earth for condition builds), Allowing you to get back to Fire when you kill something won't fix the Fire skills on those weapons being lackluster, staff users will still use Persisting Flames anyway. And the most important problem in PVE is that someone else (a Druid) will give you your 25 stacks of Might, making might generation useless. Now if Pyromancer's Puissance could be reliably combined with Heat Sync for 25-stack might uptime then we'd get a good Might generation Alternative.

    As for PVP, I think the nature of Elementalist (low health/armor) means relying on defensive trait lines, meaning Fire will always be a secondary option unfortunately

    I said pve, which includes all builds. If you meant sword in pvp/wvw, I'm pretty sure those builds would rather use bottom trait for higher defense, if they'd use fire at all.

    With this "rework", a good amount of might would be supplied from hitting enemies with fire aura, which is a faster and weaker version of curent PP trait. I put might on kill so that more offensive (aka ranged) builds in wvw, as well as any open world build, can get a steady flow of might without camping fire.

    None of the traits suggested are supposed to fix lackluster skills (I linked my previous post about skill improvements). They are supposed to enforce attunement swapping rather than camping and add more diversity so not all traits in same column have the same goal, but on a slightly different way (FA and rod are unfortunately not following this rule, but luckily the builds that use one trait would rarely benefit from the other one).

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Usagi.4835Usagi.4835 Member ✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    @steki.1478 said:
    I said pve, which includes all builds. If you meant sword in pvp/wvw, I'm pretty sure those builds would rather use bottom trait for higher defense, if they'd use fire at all.

    With this "rework", a good amount of might would be supplied from hitting enemies with fire aura, which is a faster and weaker version of curent PP trait. I put might on kill so that more offensive (aka ranged) builds in wvw, as well as any open world build, can get a steady flow of might without camping fire.

    None of the traits suggested are supposed to fix lackluster skills (I linked my previous post about skill improvements). They are supposed to enforce attunement swapping rather than camping and add more diversity so not all traits in same column have the same goal, but on a slightly different way (FA and rod are unfortunately not following this rule, but luckily the builds that use one trait would rarely benefit from the other one).

    For your Pyromancer's Puissance change, did you mean to type 'chance to grant might'? I understood the reasoning behind doing away with the cooldown traits but your suggestions did away with what are currently very good traits, such as One With Air.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    I said pve, which includes all builds. If you meant sword in pvp/wvw, I'm pretty sure those builds would rather use bottom trait for higher defense, if they'd use fire at all.

    I'm talking about PVE too:
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/sword/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/
    Power AND Condition Sword builds both use Fire traits and both deal more damage than Staff (not on huge targets)
    Sword combined with Fire traits is rather good right now.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Usagi.4835 said:

    For your Pyromancer's Puissance change, did you mean to type 'chance to grant might'? I understood the reasoning behind doing away with the cooldown traits but your suggestions did away with what are currently very good traits, such as One With Air.

    1 kill = X might + recharge. You get quick flow of short might from aura (with any skill, not just fire one), but "slow" and long supply from kills with this PP.

    One with air was moved to minor and replaced current 25% speed while staying in air.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    I said pve, which includes all builds. If you meant sword in pvp/wvw, I'm pretty sure those builds would rather use bottom trait for higher defense, if they'd use fire at all.

    I'm talking about PVE too:
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/sword/
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition/
    Power AND Condition Sword builds both use Fire traits and both deal more damage than Staff (not on huge targets)
    Sword combined with Fire traits is rather good right now.

    I think you misunderstood me. I meant to say that fire spec is currently only useful on pve builds (any dmg oriented pve build) and staff builds in general (like wvw).

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    I think you misunderstood me. I meant to say that fire spec is currently only useful on pve builds (any dmg oriented pve build) and staff builds in general (like wvw).

    Oh in that case you are absolutely right. My bad

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Basically small changes like buffs won't fix the ele problem.
    A complete rework of the current core+tempest+weaver is needed and overall a better 3rd elite spec.
    Fixing small problems with skills 1 by 1 won't fix the overall problem.
    As I said - a complete rework is needed. The concept is great but it is poorly executed.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    Fixing small problems with skills 1 by 1 won't fix the overall problem.

    Well the question is to find this "overall problem" then try fixing it.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 23, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    Fire - strong for pve and staff, useless everywhere else.

    This isn't true anymore because Fire is great for Sword Weaver too, both condition and power build.

    Grandmaster:

    • Persisting flames (unchanged)
    • Pyromancer's puissance: change to gain might (5-8 stacks, 10-15 sec duration) and recharge fire attunement on kill.
    • Burning ashes reworked into active cleanse on burning enemy/attacking a burned enemy (or halved cooldown from current trait).

    Pyromancer's Puissance is a trait that works very well as it is now on Sword, due to fire skills on sword being better than Air skills, you camp sword and get 21-22 stacks of might on yourself without boon duration gear. The reason this trait is weak is because only Sword and Staff have good Fire auto attacks, for Dagger and Scepter it's better to swap as quickly as possible to another attunement (in PVE Air - or Earth for condition builds), Allowing you to get back to Fire when you kill something won't fix the Fire skills on those weapons being lackluster, staff users will still use Persisting Flames anyway. And the most important problem in PVE is that someone else (a Druid) will give you your 25 stacks of Might, making might generation useless. Now if Pyromancer's Puissance could be reliably combined with Heat Sync for 25-stack might uptime then we'd get a good Might generation Alternative.

    As for PVP, I think the nature of Elementalist (low health/armor) means relying on defensive trait lines, meaning Fire will always be a secondary option unfortunately

    Imo Pyromancer's puissance currently is just inferior to Persisting Flames in PvE even when you are solo. The might generation is too slow thanks to all the slow attacks Fire have and it also generates less might compared to WvW/PvP version. It's actually hard to get to 25 might because enemies are either long dead (trash mobs in open world) before that happens or you are forced to play defensively by kiting and swapping to other attunements. I can get my might a lot quicker from sigil of strength and blasting fire fields, abeilt usually only to 10~15 stacks, but most importantly, Fury for critc is just that much better on power builds, especially berserkers gear where it has low critic chance but high critc damage.

    During the bugged MS week in WvW I was messing around with Persisting Flames + Air trait line for perma fury instead of the standard Pyromancer's Puissance because who cares about some kitten 6~8k normal damage from 25 might when you can crtic for 15~20k.

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