Useless Guardian Traits

I wanted to pull together list of guardian traits (okay, I was really bored :'( ). I will include some that may not necessarily be useless, but are not being selected.

Honor:

Empowering Might. 1 might on crit with 1 sec ICD, sounds like a 2012 trait. This is not useful solo PvE, grouped PvE or in PvP.

Radiance:

Wrath of Justice. A 3 second root with 25 sec CD. Wohoo?! Note that it also uncontrollable. It will randomly root the target every 25 secs, so it cannot be used strategically in any form (beside in entering combat). Did I mention that it competes with guardian two most important traits (Retribution for power and Radiant Fire for condi) for dealing damage?

Perfect Inscriptions, this has been covered in a recent thread. All power builds use Righteous Instincts and all condi builds use Amplified Wrath. Part of the issue is that signets active is pretty weak all across and the signet elite is useless.

Valor:

Strength of the Fallen. First it competes with Smiter Boon. Secondly, removing 1 condi passively for a class loaded with condi removal is useless. Lastly, degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage, but the exact opposite.

Focus Mastery. It is not bad, but it competes with Smiter Boon. Also, focus skills have long CDs, making the protection secondary. A damage alternative could be more interesting.

Altruistic Healing. It is weak. You heal yourself when you grant boons to allies. Such a weird none nonsensical design. Bonus, it competes with Monk's Focus, guardian's most important trait in PvP.

Tenacious Defense. Not a bad concept. It is geared towards support FB. But even for support FB, Monk's Focus is better.

Virtues:

Master of Consecrations, to be fair, it is not useless. Consecrations though are on the weaker side, and thus this trait rarely sees much use.

Virtuous Solace. No one uses this, like ever.

Battle Presence. Not useless, but support builds typically do not use virtues. I could see a case for support FB in PvE, but support FB in PvE typically focuses on boons not healing.

Zeal:

Binding Jeopardy. Not sure what 3 vulnerability on blind or root are supposed to do. Troll PvE mobs?

Eternal Armory. To be fair, I use this sometimes in solo PvE. The problem is only SoJ really benefits from it. Sacrificing Symbolic Avenger to just buff 1 utility does not cut it.

Dragon Hunter:

Dulled Senses. I can see the synergy with LB 3 and Heavy Light. It could really be a considerable option if it was a root. But no on is giving up Piercing Light for this.

Soaring Devastation. I seriously think a dev was trying to troll us with this trait.

Hunter's Determination. I am all for no passive play, but 90 sec CD?! Why not just scrap it in favor of something useful?

Fire Brand:Weighty Terms. This is actually an okaish trait, but poorly though threw. No one is using the final charge to root a target. In addition, it does not really offer any distinctive advantage. Stalwart Speed is used if you are going for 100% uptime on quickness. Legendary Lore for everything else (damage, sustain or support).

Stoic Demeanor. Slow on disable or immobilize. COOOOOL. When, where and why would you use this? I can see where Anet was going with this + Weighty Terms + Unrelenting Criticism. You apply slow, root, burn and bleeding. And this could have worked, if it was provided to core burn build in PvP. But FB cannot make it work cuz the sustainability is sitting in the tomes and you cannot use tomes and weapons at the same time. Regardless, slow is the weakest deliberating condi anyway and putting it as grand master major trait is just silly.

uh wrath of justice is on justice active right? so you can control when it procs... its a good trait for landing bombs.

You forgot Defender's Dogma in the DH line. It's a condi-only trait for a power-based traitline. Not to mention: Even for a condi DH (which isn't a thing) it's not a useful trait. You'd have to be using Whirling Wrath on a target who is also using something like Whirling Wrath/Rapid Fire on you meanwhile have your F3 active to make good use out of it.

This is probably the number one trait I want to see changed. Either throw a bone in for power-builds, make it defensive/sustain focused or rework the trait entirely.

You ever played wvw? xD

@"kaleen.8204" said:You ever played wvw? xD

Of course not. Here's how the forums work : You ignore 2/3 gamemodes and virtually any playstyle that isn't your own, then throw a tantrum about all the skills that aren't optimized for your playstyle while casually ignoring every aspect of the game where they're strong.

You then say "but pve is the most important !!!!!!!!!!" and maybe some stuff about how you don't care about meta / minmax but still demand skill changes based on "balance" reasonings.

Half this list can be ignored because OP won't even consider half the guard builds that are being played.

On that list Kitty saw whole 2 traits that she hasn't used at least in some gamemode and more than a couple are part of endgame PVE metabuilds. And some reasoning just..."degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage but the exact opposite" you realize that losing downed health slower buys more time for ally to ress you or for downed symbol to come off from CD so you can rally yourself? Sorry but that list and the reasoning just doesn't look like well thought.

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:On that list Kitty saw whole 2 traits that she hasn't used at least in some gamemode and more than a couple are part of endgame PVE metabuilds. And some reasoning just..."degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage but the exact opposite" you realize that losing downed health slower buys more time for ally to ress you or for downed symbol to come off from CD so you can rally yourself? Sorry but that list and the reasoning just doesn't look like well thought.

I think he's referring to the effect that it has in sPVP, since the goal is to let your opponent bleed out as slowly as possible when they die off point so it takes them much longer to respawn.

I will disagree with Otto on some points:

Altruistic Healing: If a firebrand is going into Valor this is the better bet in WvW. This gives similar healing output and doesn't put harsh restrictions on which utilities you have to use.

Wrath of justice: I assume people are using this with Justice's active-damage and therefore easily controlling the initial proc.

Binding Jeopardy: Is okay and can stack a lot of vulnerability quickly when by yourself. Opening with symbol of blades + (radiance traited) VoJ and you have 6 vulnerability stack for 8s. That's a simple and reliable 6% damage boost. Also if you are in zeal and not using GS then you have nothing else worth picking up.

Ones I disagree with:

Wrath of justice is decent in pvp. It is a long immob which is quite powerful but it is hard to use outside of DH f1. I could be reworked a bit but it isnt useless.

Perfect Inscrip: Fine as is, Support firebrand uses this to give allies 100 power/condition dmg

Focus mastery: Fine as is

Altruistic Healing: I thought this was used in WvW so its not useless at all.

None of those virtues traits are useless. The weakest is probably battle presence due to power creep in other areas.

Soaring devastation and hunters determination are both decent in pvp. The problem with DH as a whole is the cohesion of the spec is lacking but most of the individual pieces are quite good.

I just hope that some day they will fix renewed justice

From a spvp perspective, the only mode I play, I agree with most of these being worthless crap.

@otto.5684 said:Wrath of Justice. A 3 second root with 25 sec CD. Wohoo?! Note that it also uncontrollable. It will randomly root the target every 25 secs, so it cannot be used strategically in any form (beside in entering combat). Did I mention that it competes with guardian two most important traits (Retribution for power and Radiant Fire for condi) for dealing damage?

I'm not sure how it isn't controllable. You activate Virtue of Justice and your next attack roots. Simple as that.

@otto.5684 said:Perfect Inscriptions, this has been covered in a recent thread. All power builds use Righteous Instincts and all condi builds use Amplified Wrath. Part of the issue is that signets active is pretty weak all across and the signet elite is useless.

The fastest revive in the game and a 1200 radius full heal both on 72s cooldowns with the trait. "Useless".

@otto.5684 said:Virtuous Solace. No one uses this, like ever.

Battle Presence. Not useless, but support builds typically do not use virtues. I could see a case for support FB in PvE, but support FB in PvE typically focuses on boons not healing.

Virtuous Solace used to be okay-ish but got randomly nerfed into the trash.Battle Presence is completely useless, it remains inactive while VoR is on cooldown and it competes with one of the best talents in the Virtues tree (Indomitable Courage). Not that it regenerates much in the first place.

@Indure.5410 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:On that list Kitty saw whole 2 traits that she hasn't used at least in some gamemode and more than a couple are part of endgame PVE metabuilds. And some reasoning just..."degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage but the exact opposite" you realize that losing downed health slower buys more time for ally to ress you or for downed symbol to come off from CD so you can rally yourself? Sorry but that list and the reasoning just doesn't look like well thought.

But it doesn't even affect your enemies. It slows down gradual health loss when YOU are in downed state. Don't see how that is not an advantage.

@aceofbass.2163 said:

@Indure.5410 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:On that list Kitty saw whole 2 traits that she hasn't used at least in some gamemode and more than a couple are part of endgame PVE metabuilds. And some reasoning just..."degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage but the exact opposite" you realize that losing downed health slower buys more time for ally to ress you or for downed symbol to come off from CD so you can rally yourself? Sorry but that list and the reasoning just doesn't look like well thought.

Re-read what you quoted. In sPvP there are situations where you do not want a slow lingering death for yourself. If YOU die off point without backup an enemy will do his best to keep YOU in a down state for as long as he can as this prevents YOU from re-entering the game in a meaningful way. As this trait will essentially slow down how long it takes for YOU to die it is actually playing into your opponent's hand. So I kinda see his point.

Yeah I guess it is a little helpful in PvE but personally I would prefer to select another trait that means I don't go down in the first place. For PvE purposes it would be nice as a minor trait, perhaps if you have the trait give you a suicide option in down state, that actually potentially makes it also powerful for those situations in PvP. I think all professions have a trait like this though and it is more one of those nicer options for newer players -- Which is something to consider for some of these 'useless' traits, some traits do just make it easier on newer players, and ANet should not remove them just because the more experienced players find them useless.

@aceofbass.2163 said:

@Indure.5410 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:On that list Kitty saw whole 2 traits that she hasn't used at least in some gamemode and more than a couple are part of endgame PVE metabuilds. And some reasoning just..."degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage but the exact opposite" you realize that losing downed health slower buys more time for ally to ress you or for downed symbol to come off from CD so you can rally yourself? Sorry but that list and the reasoning just doesn't look like well thought.

In PvP it's a big disadvantage. In the end though, not all traits are meant to be used in PvP.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:

@Indure.5410 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:On that list Kitty saw whole 2 traits that she hasn't used at least in some gamemode and more than a couple are part of endgame PVE metabuilds. And some reasoning just..."degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage but the exact opposite" you realize that losing downed health slower buys more time for ally to ress you or for downed symbol to come off from CD so you can rally yourself? Sorry but that list and the reasoning just doesn't look like well thought.

And that is one side of it. The other issue is some of these traits have no use in PvE either. Strength of the fallen is a good example of a trait that was clearly created with PvP in mind. It is not good for PvP. The alternatives are much better. And for PvE, the only time you use valor line is when you are trying to solo a champion, in which this skill would be absolutely useless.

Also, there are three major filters for any trait:

1) is it useful in a game mode/build?2) is the trait line, the trait is part of, useful for the same game mode/build.3) is it better than the 2 other alternatives for the same game mode/build.

If the answer is not yes for all three questions, the trait will not be used, and thus it requires change.

@otto.5684 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:

@Indure.5410 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:On that list Kitty saw whole 2 traits that she hasn't used at least in some gamemode and more than a couple are part of endgame PVE metabuilds. And some reasoning just..."degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage but the exact opposite" you realize that losing downed health slower buys more time for ally to ress you or for downed symbol to come off from CD so you can rally yourself? Sorry but that list and the reasoning just doesn't look like well thought.

Guess you haven't heard of this PVE-thing called "heal guard/FB" which uses valor to share more blocks and fury and faster focus-CDs+protection if tanking.

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:

@Indure.5410 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:On that list Kitty saw whole 2 traits that she hasn't used at least in some gamemode and more than a couple are part of endgame PVE metabuilds. And some reasoning just..."degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage but the exact opposite" you realize that losing downed health slower buys more time for ally to ress you or for downed symbol to come off from CD so you can rally yourself? Sorry but that list and the reasoning just doesn't look like well thought.

This is your own improvised build not a meta build or an efficient build. Go check GW2 metabattle. There is no reason whatsoever to use valor in PvE over radiance or virtues for FB support/healer.

@otto.5684 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Yannir.4132 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:

@Indure.5410 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:On that list Kitty saw whole 2 traits that she hasn't used at least in some gamemode and more than a couple are part of endgame PVE metabuilds. And some reasoning just..."degenerating health slowly when downed is NOT an advantage but the exact opposite" you realize that losing downed health slower buys more time for ally to ress you or for downed symbol to come off from CD so you can rally yourself? Sorry but that list and the reasoning just doesn't look like well thought.

It really doesn't have to be a meta build. If there's enough ppl that enjoy a trait as it is, it's not useless anymore.

@otto.5684 said:This is your own improvised build not a meta build or an efficient build. Go check GW2 metabattle. There is no reason whatsoever to use valor in PvE over radiance or virtues for FB support/healer.

tl;dr you think every trait should be made for meta builds.

@otto.5684 said:This is your own improvised build not a meta build or an efficient build. Go check GW2 metabattle. There is no reason whatsoever to use valor in PvE over radiance or virtues for FB support/healer.

True but metabattle is only a tool and the final determination of a builds value is the player using it and if it works for them than thats truthfully all that matters. Everybody's play style is different.

@otto.5684 said:And that is one side of it. The other issue is some of these traits have no use in PvE either. Strength of the fallen is a good example of a trait that was clearly created with PvP in mind. It is not good for PvP. The alternatives are much better. And for PvE, the only time you use valor line is when you are trying to solo a champion, in which this skill would be absolutely useless.

Strength of the fallen would be a decent trait if the condition cleanse component was stronger.

I could see it being great for PVP if the internal cooldown of it and Signet of Resolve was reduce to 5s giving a nice passive condition clear.

Alternatively it would work really well if it only triggered and cleared when upon reaching the first 5 stack of a single condition then go on a 10s cooldown. Would let you shed the most damaging conditions.

The original signet trait in radiance was better than what we have now imo. It gave signets condi clear. The biggest problem with the guardian signets is that there isn't one that clears conditions. Taking perfect inscriptions would mean that you have some sort of dedicated signet build to take advantage of it. But no one does that. I think guardian signets could use a rework. Signet of courage change was great, it made it functional. It has a good passive now and a good active. From a spvp perspective, signets also feel clunky because they need targets. If I was to change signets and their radiance trait it would look like this:

Perfect inscriptions: Reduces signet cooldowns by 20%. Increases passive effect by 30%. Signets now remove conditions upon use.Signet of judgement: Remove the burning effect, replace it with 3 stacks of stability. Increase the duration of retaliation. Damage/condi mitigation increase from 10% ---->15%.Signet of Resolve: Condi removal increased to 2. Activating the signet also grants protection upon use.Bane Signet: Active changed to aoe, targeting requirement removed. Aoe range 360 radius. Activating grants quickness.Signet of Wraith: Active change from immobilize to burning. Target requirement removed. Active is now a aoe range 360 radius.

Add pure of voice to the list. It hasn't been updated since 2012. For a gm trait, converting 1 condition is very weak.

@Aza.2105 said:Add pure of voice to the list. It hasn't been updated since 2012. For a gm trait, converting 1 condition is very weak.

I do not think the trait is bad, but the shouts themselves are bad. If the shouts are good, the trait could be fine.

@otto.5684 said:

@Aza.2105 said:Add pure of voice to the list. It hasn't been updated since 2012. For a gm trait, converting 1 condition is very weak.

I think the opposite, the shouts are good but the trait is bad.